DBZ Power Level List (and discussions) - Page 10

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RyLai

United States477 Posts

September 24 2013 07:40 GMT

#181

On September 24 2013 16:32 cLutZ wrote:

Show nested quote +

On September 24 2013 14:39 Dazed_Spy wrote:

On September 24 2013 14:19 BigFan wrote:

On September 24 2013 05:44 Uhnno wrote:

On September 24 2013 05:33 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:
Just going through the list you have alot of numbers that are way off. Example is Goku super sayain during Freiza saga is 15 million not 150 million. So you can make alot of adjustments on it.

I've attached a spoiler below with the correct numbering from DBZ (if you want a DB and a GT let me know. Even though GT is a total failure.)

+ Show Spoiler +

Time: Raditz Battle
Farmer 5
Gohan 1-710
Gohan really angry 1, 130
Goku 334
Goku without heavy clothes 416
Goku Kamehameha 924
Krillin 206
Master Roshi 160
Piccolo 322
Piccolo without weighted clothes 408
Piccolo Makankosappo (first try) 1,330
Piccolo Makankosappo (second try) 1,440
Raditz 1,200
Tien 250
Turtle 0.001
Yamcha 177

Time: Saiya-jin Battle
Chaozu 610
Gohan 981
Masenko 2,800
Oozaru 9,810-28,000
Goku 5,000
Goku charged up 8,000
Goku Kaio-Ken 12,000
Goku Kaio-Ken x2 16,000
Goku Kaio-Ken x3 24,000
Goku Kaio-Ken x4+Kamehameha 32,000
Krillin 1,083
- max 1,770
Nappa 4,000
Piccolo 1,220
- max 3,500
Saibamen 1,200
Tien 1,830
Vegeta 18,000
Oozaru 180,000
Yamcha 1,480

Time: Freeza Saga
Gohan 1,500
Gohan after Guru charge 12,500
Gohan after Senzu Heal 17,000
Gohan while fighting Freeza 20,000
Krillin 1,500
Krillin after Guru's charge 11,000
Krillin after Senzu Heal 16,500
Krillin after Dende's Heal 19,000
Freeza's Henchmen 500
Kui 19,000
Dodoria 21,000
Zarbon 23,000
- Transformed 33,000
Vegeta 24,000
Vegeta after Zarbon Fight 35,000
Vegeta after Recoome Fight 300,000
Vegeta after Krillin's Attack 1,000,000
Guldo 10,000
Recoome 40,000
Burter 45,000
Jeice 50,000
Captain Ginyu 120,000
Ginyu In Goku's Body 23,000
Nail 42,000
Dende 10
Piccolo 200,000
Piccolo after fusion with Nail 800,000
Piccolo after Dende Heal 1,500,000
Goku 5,000
Goku after gravity training 180,000
Goku after Ginyu fight 300,000
Goku kaio-Ken x10 3,000,000
Goku kaio-Ken x20 6,000,000
Goku Super Saiyan 15,000,000
Freiza 530,000
Freiza form 2 1,000,000
Freiza form 3 2,500,000
Freiza final Form 4,000,000
Freiza 50% of max 6,000,000
Freiza 70% of max 8,400,000
Freiza 100% of max 12,000,000

Time: Garlic Jr. Saga
Garlic Jr. 1,000,000
Garlic Jr. transformed 4,000,000
Gohan 900,000
Gohan really masenko 4,500,000
Kami 300,000
Krillin 600,000
Piccolo 2,000,000

Time: Trunks Saga
Vegeta 4,000,000
Piccolo 3,000,000
Gohan 1,000,000
Krillin 750,000
Tien 800,000
Yamcha 700,000
Chaozu 500,000
Freeza's Henchmen 5,000
Freeza bot 12,500,000
King Cold 13,000,000
Super Saiya-jin Trunks 18,000,000 Surpressed 5
Super Saiya-jin Goku 20,000,000

Time: Android Saga
Super Saiyan Goku 23,000,000
Goku sick 5,000,000
Goku after room of spirit and time 110,000,000
Super Saiyan Vegeta 25,000,000
Vegeta after room of spirit and time 90,000,00
Super Saiya-jin Trunks 20,000,000
Trunks Ultra Super Saiyan 130,000,000
Piccolo 18,000,000
Piccolo after fusion with Kami 40,000,000
Gohan 6,000,000
Gohan after room of spirit and time 120,000,000
Krillin 4,500,000
Tien 4,000,000
Yamcha 3,000,000
Android 16 40,000,000
Android 17 35,000,000
Android 18 35,000,000
Android 19 10,000,000
Android 20 5,000,000
Cell 35,000,000
Cell after absorbing humans 45,000,000
Cell after absorbing Android 17 65,000,000
Perfect Cell 125,000,000

Time: Cell Saga
Super Saiyan Trunks 105,000,000
Super Saiyan Vegeta 100,000,000
Super Saiyan Gohan 130,000,000
SSJ2 Gohan 325,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku 120,000,000
Piccolo 60,000,000
Perfect Cell 125,000,000
Super Perfect Cell 300,000,000

Majin Buu Saga

Fat Buu: 45,000,000
Majin Buu: 80,000,000
Good Buu: 55,000,000
Bad Buu: 65,000,000
Super Buu: 70,000,000
Ultimate Buu: 50,000,000
Majin Gotunks Buu: 90,000,000
Majin Veggetto Buu: 100,000,000
Goku: 5,000,000
Goku: super saiyan: 27,000,000
Goku: super saiyan 2: 49,500,000
Goku: super saiyan 3: 79,999,999
Goku: genki-dama: 100,000,000
Piccolo: 26,000,000
Gohan: 3,000,000
Gohan: super saiyan: 25,000,000
Gohan: with the Z sword: 53,000,000
Goten: 1,500,000
Goten: super saiyan: 10,000,000
Trunks: 1,500,000
Trunks: super saiyan: 10,000,000
Gotunks: 3,000,000
Gotunks: super saiyan: 20,000,000
Gotunks: super saiyan 3: 75,000,000
Vegeta: 5,000,000
Vegeta: super saiyan: 26,500,000
Vegeta: super saiyan 2: 49,000,000
Veggetto: 10,000,000
Veggetto: super saiyan: 53,000,000
Veggetto: super saiyan 2: 99,500,000

There are tons of things wrong in your list, especially during the Cell and Buu Saga, somehow everyone in Buu is weaker than Perfect Cell, when obviously that is not true. Even SSJ 3 Goku is weaker than Cell, who got his ass handed by SSJ2 Gohan. It's fun to make up numbers, but the official formulas have been ignored real badly.

agree with this especially this part:
Veggetto: super saiyan 2: 99,500,000
Perfect cell: 125,000,000
Super Perfect Cell 300,000,000

My thoughts were, what? cell is stronger than vegitto? The character who played around with Super Buu even kicking his ass when he was a piece of candy XD

To be fair he was a jaw breaker.

One of the problems with the assumption that "Frieza must be XX" etc, is what if DBZ fighting is like Tennis? In tennis, even being slightly better at the game results in total domination.

Frieza MUST be at least a third of the stated power level given in the Daizenshuu. I just did the math. And being slightly better in tennis doesn't result in total domination unless we're talking about true NTRP ratings. A .5 difference in NTRP is actually a large difference in skill (one example is of it being the difference between an absolute beginner and someone who can actually hit the ball inside the lines somewhat consistently during practice). Also, with Tennis, physical performance varies a lot because there's always a luck factor (tennis at it's absolute core is a game of percentages, meaning nothing is absolute and being unlucky by itself can mean defeat in the worst case scenario) and that no NORMAL human can keep up the same level of performance for long periods of time (DBZ doesn't consist of normal humans though, or even humans for that matter).

cLutZ

United States19574 Posts

September 24 2013 08:27 GMT

#182

On September 24 2013 16:40 RyLai wrote:

Show nested quote +

On September 24 2013 16:32 cLutZ wrote:

On September 24 2013 14:39 Dazed_Spy wrote:

On September 24 2013 14:19 BigFan wrote:

On September 24 2013 05:44 Uhnno wrote:

To be fair he was a jaw breaker.

One of the problems with the assumption that "Frieza must be XX" etc, is what if DBZ fighting is like Tennis? In tennis, even being slightly better at the game results in total domination.

Let me just say it like this: I Can 6-0 6-0 my Brother, Who Can 6-0 6-0 my sister. There is no discernible difference between them to me. Now, the same is true for a pair of my friends who can crush me. 6-0 or 6-1. One of them has a brother who beats him 6-0/6-1 and our other friend Sam beats all of us easily 6-0. Now Sam is good, but any ATP pro would 6-0 his ass. And most of those get Dominated by a guy like Isner 6-0 or 6-1, and he gets slaughtered by guys like Nadal and Djoker.

And these are just regular humans we are talking about (basically all power lvl 5-6 in DBZ). The fact is, you dont have to be much stronger than another DBZ character to beat them. 1% might be able to do.

On top of that, I still think the Super Saiyan multipliers are BS post-initial-transformation.

RyLai

United States477 Posts

September 24 2013 08:48 GMT

#183

On September 24 2013 17:27 cLutZ wrote:

Show nested quote +

On September 24 2013 16:40 RyLai wrote:

On September 24 2013 16:32 cLutZ wrote:

On September 24 2013 14:39 Dazed_Spy wrote:

On September 24 2013 14:19 BigFan wrote:

On September 24 2013 05:44 Uhnno wrote:

To be fair he was a jaw breaker.

One of the problems with the assumption that "Frieza must be XX" etc, is what if DBZ fighting is like Tennis? In tennis, even being slightly better at the game results in total domination.

If you can double bagel someone, you can easily double bagel someone they can easily beat. There'd be no difference to you, cause you're on a different level. If you were to view them subjectively with the knowledge of a high level coach, you'd notice a key difference(s).

Also, Isner loses to Nadal and Djokovic, but he won't get consistently bageled by them. Even Federer didn't do that and Federer was the king of handing out bagels and breadsticks.

A difference of 1% leads to a life and death battle similar to Tien vs Goku, Piccolo Sr. vs Goku, and Piccolo Jr. vs Goku during the Tenkaichi Budokai. It's an unpredictable fight and either person can win.

Again, if you don't follow a set multiplier system, you're literally just pulling numbers out of your ass with no system to follow other than the comparison system. In that case, comparisons between characters that never fight against one another are impossible to make unless they both fought against the same person, at the same time, and had noticeably different results. This means, it would be impossible to say that SS Gotenks>SS3 Goku. I could say SS3 Goku>SS3 Gotenks and you could NEVER EVER make a solid argument against me. With the set multiplier system, you can easily say that I was being a Goku fanboy and nothing more. That's not the only bullshit comparison I could make. I could also say that SS3 Goku>Super Buu (Gotenks Absorbed)>Ultimate Gohan, therefore meaning SS3 Goku>Ultimate Gohan, which we KNOW to be false. However, you have no hard evidence to refute me other than Goku's word that he can't beat Super Buu (he fights Super Buu in the anime, and takes a hell of a lot less damage than Gohan did; no data in the manga). Do you see how stupid fighting against the multiplier system is? Yeah, people who sit towards the middle of the system get screwed, but the numbers for the people on the outer limits (or who have been on the outer limits and haven't powered up by an unknown amount) are stable.

Also, if you go with the decreasing multiplier theory, I have a single rebuttal that destroys it: Kaioken x10. If it's not stronger than Kaioken x10, it's a dead (preferably has to be stronger than Kaioken x20 also, otherwise he would use it in desperate times, like against Buu). Pretty hard to argue the multiplier system, or rather, it's extremely easy to argue for it, and I've yet to see any legitimate argument to refute it except for bickering over what the SS2 and SS3 multipliers are.

On September 23 2013 22:20 1ntrigue wrote:
Personally, I like davidstarlingm's model which was used in Bringer of Death.

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/8162862/1/Bringer-of-Death

Power level model and explanation here:
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/8162862/50/Bringer-of-Death

That's cool and all, but there's 1 thing they don't take into account that destroys the entire model: Kaioken.

At one point, Base Goku is 65 million and SS Goku is 210 million (or something like that). That means, Kaioken x5>Super Saiyan. That means Super Saiyan becomes entirely irrelevant and Goku might as well go Kaioken x10 and use that for his battles.

Again, set multiplier system, otherwise we can make up whatever we want as long as there's no hard evidence to dispute it, like SS3 Goku being stronger than SS3 Gotenks (which isn't true since you can measure SS3 Gotenks' power in units of SS3 Gokus, which I guess I'll call "3ku"s from now on).

Iplaythings

Denmark9110 Posts

September 24 2013 08:55 GMT

#184

On September 23 2013 17:10 RyLai wrote:

Show nested quote +

Can't be possible if you're talking about Goku. Gotenks>SS2 Majin Vegeta=SS2 Goku. SS3 Gotenks=Super Buu. It's mathematically impossible that SS3 Goku could be compared to Super Buu.

I'm talking about Kid Buu

And I'd say ss3 gotenks were slightly stronger than Super Buu

17Sphynx17

580 Posts

September 24 2013 09:00 GMT

#185

I have a problem with the Frieza Calculations. And I think that is where the numbers get wonky or too much.

I'm not here picking a fight but I do have a problem with numbers ending up with quintiliion quariliions.

Great Ape = base X 10
Super Saiyan = base X 50
Ascended Saiyan = Super Saiyan X 1.03 = base X 60
Ultra Super Saiyan = Ascended Saiyan X 1.2 = base X 62
Super Saiyan 2 = Super Saiyan X 2 = base X 100
Super Saiyan 3 = Super Saiyan 2 X 4 = base X 400

I am generally in agreement with these "multipliers". The problem is the base power level should be established.

EDIT:

How about going with the list under this page?

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Power_Levels

EDIT 2:

The list there has Buu at about 1 billion.
Androids 16 to 18 all at 30 million only.

The only problem I have with this list is SSJ1 Goku and Frieza. If you look at the list, Frieza final form is 120million. Goku in that arc SSJ1 is 150million. Yet jumping to the Android Saga, Vegeta SSj1 is only 22 million? So My belief is the disparity lies in the escalation of Frieza's power which Goku needs to match with in that arc. If you don't balloon Frieza's numbers to much, you aren't forced into a corner when it comes to other characters.

I think the androids could go toe to toe with Frieza so mostly likely Frieza is closer to that number.

cLutZ

United States19574 Posts

September 24 2013 09:09 GMT

#186

On September 24 2013 17:48 RyLai wrote:

Show nested quote +

On September 24 2013 17:27 cLutZ wrote:

On September 24 2013 16:40 RyLai wrote:

On September 24 2013 16:32 cLutZ wrote:

On September 24 2013 14:39 Dazed_Spy wrote:

On September 24 2013 14:19 BigFan wrote:

On September 24 2013 05:44 Uhnno wrote:

To be fair he was a jaw breaker.

One of the problems with the assumption that "Frieza must be XX" etc, is what if DBZ fighting is like Tennis? In tennis, even being slightly better at the game results in total domination.

There is just not a lot of evidence that supports your conclusion. Tien vs. Goku turned on the fact that they possessed different skill sets (and arguably Goku was stronger). Yea, but there is no evidence that 2% is not a significant difference, or even 5%. I mean, the thing about Dragonball, is that there is almost a 100% correlation between being stronger and winning a fight (Except Goku vs. Vegeta #1). Its like if Tiger Woods won 100% of Tournaments from 2000-His Affair becoming public. In DB, a small difference in power is gigantic.

JustPassingBy

10776 Posts

September 24 2013 09:18 GMT

#187

On September 24 2013 16:21 RyLai wrote:

Show nested quote +

I'll solve this problem with commonly used magic I call analytical comparison and basic math.

Frieza form 2 is over 1 million. (Not debatable)
Piccolo is stronger than Frieza Form 2, therefore, Piccolo is also over 1 million. (Not debatable.)
In Goku's initial fight versus Frieza's final form, Piccolo states this is a fight outside of our league/realm of understanding. Also, at this point, Goku has yet to use Kaioken (the art's pretty noticeable), therefore, any number short of 1 million can't be debated to be true unless you live in a world where math doesn't exist.
Goku uses Kaioken x20, and blows a Kamehameha at Frieza. Frieza blocks it with his hand, while claiming to be at 50% the entire time. Goku says he wasn't bluffing after all. This means, even if Frieza was wrong, he's not far off from being at 50% of his actual power. Ergo, 1+ million x 20 <= 50% Frieza, meaning Frieza's strength exceeds 40 million.

Two things:

1) It is not sure that Frieza fought Piccolo with his full power in his second form?
He might just transform as soon as his opponents get to, say, half his strength, just because he wants to toy with them without breaking a sweat.

2) While Goku fights Frieza "normally", he already used a tenfold Kaioken, so if you consider Kaioken to be a simple multiplier, switching from tenfold to twentyfold just doubles the strength.

saltywet

Hong Kong1316 Posts

September 24 2013 09:39 GMT

#188

Before, (sometime ago) I saw a power level list I really liked,

It had freiza final level around 1mill-2mill

android saga
vegeta super saiyan 18mill
android 18 35mill
android 17 40 mill
android 16 60 mill

buu saga
kid buu 500mil
normal vegetto 670mill~

in my memory (i watched vegeta saga to end of android saga completely, the rest i missed):
android 16 was strong than imperfect cell but got destroyed by semiperfect cell.
100% frieza fought with goku on even level or close to even level but ran out of energy quick
android 18 destroyed SSJ vegeta on their first encounter

RyLai

United States477 Posts

September 24 2013 09:42 GMT

#189

On September 24 2013 17:55 Iplaythings wrote:

Show nested quote +

I'm talking about Kid Buu

And I'd say ss3 gotenks were slightly stronger than Super Buu

Fair enough, but he's called Kid Buu for a reason (so we don't get those kinds of misunderstandings).

Yeah, the exact comparisons of SS3 Gotenks to Super Buu and SS3 Goku to Kid Buu are blurry. You could argue for or against each side. I'd say SS3 Gotenks in terms of sheer power and ability does beat Super Buu by a bit, but by enough to win in the 5-10 minutes he has? Not if Super Buu is looking for the kill. I'd also say Kid Buu>SS3 Goku. But again, these are debatable, but it would be difficult to come with a conclusion accepted by the majority, so I avoid that mess and list them being the same (makes calculations easier, though only slightly).

On September 24 2013 18:00 17Sphynx17 wrote:
I have a problem with the Frieza Calculations. And I think that is where the numbers get wonky or too much.

I'm not here picking a fight but I do have a problem with numbers ending up with quintiliion quariliions.

Great Ape = base X 10
Super Saiyan = base X 50
Ascended Saiyan = Super Saiyan X 1.03 = base X 60
Ultra Super Saiyan = Ascended Saiyan X 1.2 = base X 62
Super Saiyan 2 = Super Saiyan X 2 = base X 100
Super Saiyan 3 = Super Saiyan 2 X 4 = base X 400

I am generally in agreement with these "multipliers". The problem is the base power level should be established.

EDIT:

How about going with the list under this page?

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Power_Levels

I don't go with that list because it's messy, incomplete, wrong, and even contradicts itself because it's messy. Frieza is listed as under 40 million. I've already posted the math that proves Frieza is over 40 million.

Your math is also wrong. 1.03x50 =51.5. You're looking for 1.2x50. I've seen that before somewhere because you copy and pasted that exact same mathematical error.

You say you have a problem with the Frieza calculations, but you can't dispute them. You can't dispute math unless you can prove one of the assumptions are wrong, which is all taken straight from the manga. You'd be hard-pressed to have any ground to stand on when disputing the fact that Frieza is stronger than 40 million.

On September 24 2013 18:09 cLutZ wrote:

Show nested quote +

On September 24 2013 17:48 RyLai wrote:

On September 24 2013 17:27 cLutZ wrote:

On September 24 2013 16:40 RyLai wrote:

On September 24 2013 16:32 cLutZ wrote:

On September 24 2013 14:39 Dazed_Spy wrote:

On September 24 2013 14:19 BigFan wrote:

On September 24 2013 05:44 Uhnno wrote:

To be fair he was a jaw breaker.

One of the problems with the assumption that "Frieza must be XX" etc, is what if DBZ fighting is like Tennis? In tennis, even being slightly better at the game results in total domination.

Different skillsets is what contributes to the battle power of a fighter. Also, Shonen Jump I believe posted those numbers and they were reprinted in Daizenshuu (or visa versa, though a lot of people regard Shonen Jump as a reliable source as long as the number is posted several times, since being posted only once means it was a mistake, which is obviously why they didn't repost it).

Technically, Goku vs Vegeta has Goku losing by a large margin. But everyone else came in and a bunch of fortuitous moments happened (Yajirobe cutting Vegeta's tail off and Gohan turning into an Oozaru when Vegeta was weakened).

The only 2 instances of someone winning a fight while being weaker than their opponent . The first is Goku+Piccolo vs Radditz, and that was cause Goku held down Radditz so Piccolo could go for a fatal attack at Radditz's heart. The second one is Krillin vs Vegeta. Krillin KILLED Vegeta (cause Vegeta reduced his resistances to 0

).

Outside of Dragonball, where power levels were tiny, there aren't many instances where a small power level difference resulted in a win. The ONLY instances are Dodoria vs Vegeta (where the difference was 9% of Dodoria's power level and 7% of Vegeta's), Zarbon vs Vegeta (Zarbon was likely over 10% stronger than Vegeta, and the other way around after Vegeta got his Zenkai to go to 30,000). After that, you look at Goku vs Frieza, Goku is 25% stronger than Frieza (Frieza at 80% of Goku), and Goku takes nearly 5 minutes of hard fighting to beat him. And in Dragonball, those small differences lead to small victories. You rarely saw people at the top dominate each other to the level shown in Dragonball Z.

VelJa

France1109 Posts

September 24 2013 09:51 GMT

#190

On September 23 2013 05:19 Prog455 wrote:

Show nested quote +

My whole life is a lie

OH MY GODNESS
WHAT THE FUCK

RyLai

United States477 Posts

September 24 2013 10:01 GMT

#191

On September 24 2013 18:18 JustPassingBy wrote:

Show nested quote +

1) Doesn't matter. Frieza's transformed form was over 1 million. Even if he wasn't giving it his all, he was still fighting Piccolo with a power level of "over 1 million". This means Goku is still over 1 million in power level.

2) No, he wasn't. lol When he initially fights Frieza, neither of them were taking it all that seriously. Goku hadn't used Kaioken even once. Then later on (when they say it's time to get serious), he starts using lower levels of Kaioken (judging from the art, might not even be Kaioken). Why do I say that? The following dialog sequence after that brief fight has Frieza saying, "You're pretty confident. I know you're still holding back your true power. However, if I take that into consideration, I can still destroy you with just 50% of my power." Goku considers his true power to be using Kaioken x10, with Kaioken x20 as an absolute last resort (and Spirit Bomb being desperation plan C). That means Kaioken x10 was not used from the start, so Frieza is still at over 40 million at 100%.

On September 24 2013 18:39 saltywet wrote:
Before, (sometime ago) I saw a power level list I really liked,

It had freiza final level around 1mill-2mill

android saga
vegeta super saiyan 18mill
android 18 35mill
android 17 40 mill
android 16 60 mill

buu saga
kid buu 500mil
normal vegetto 670mill~

in my memory (i watched vegeta saga to end of android saga completely, the rest i missed):
android 16 was strong than imperfect cell but got destroyed by semiperfect cell.
100% frieza fought with goku on even level or close to even level but ran out of energy quick
android 18 destroyed SSJ vegeta on their first encounter

Ignoring the Frieza comment.

Android 16 ~= Imperfect Cell. It never said he was stronger, just "about equal".

Still reanalyzing Androids' power after reading some lines from the History of Trunks. Yes, she destroyed Vegeta, but a large part of that fact was that she had infinite energy. Trunks thought they were fighting on fairly even ground (much better than Trunks did versus the Androids in his own time), but the reason he lost was that for every move Vegeta made, he slowly lost stamina, while the Androids didn't lose any because their power was infinite. So to say Android 18 is twice Vegeta's strength can't be true. If we do an "effective" combat power level, then maybe she's twice as strong as Vegeta, but in terms of raw power, Vegeta's not THAT far off (think of Trunks vs Cell, Trunks was "stronger" but weaker in actual combat).

Tobberoth

Sweden6375 Posts

September 24 2013 10:07 GMT

#192

On September 24 2013 16:21 RyLai wrote:
Also, at this point, Goku has yet to use Kaioken (the art's pretty noticeable), therefore, any number short of 1 million can't be debated to be true unless you live in a world where math doesn't exist.
Goku uses Kaioken x20, and blows a Kamehameha at Frieza. Frieza blocks it with his hand, while claiming to be at 50% the entire time. Goku says he wasn't bluffing after all. This means, even if Frieza was wrong, he's not far off from being at 50% of his actual power. Ergo, 1+ million x 20 <= 50% Frieza, meaning Frieza's strength exceeds 40 million.

While your argument is solid, both Tien and King Kai claim that Goku is using 10x kaioken throughout the fight with frieza, which lowers your estimate quite massively.

Olinimmm

51 Posts

September 24 2013 10:16 GMT

#193

On September 24 2013 19:07 Tobberoth wrote:

Show nested quote +

While your argument is solid, both Tien and King Kai claim that Goku is using 10x kaioken throughout the fight with frieza, which lowers your estimate quite massively.

Throughout the whole fight? no way. Only after Frieza increased his power did Goku start using the kaioken

saltywet

Hong Kong1316 Posts

September 24 2013 10:25 GMT

#194

On September 24 2013 19:01 RyLai wrote:

Ignoring the Frieza comment.

Android 16 ~= Imperfect Cell. It never said he was stronger, just "about equal".

Still reanalyzing Androids' power after reading some lines from the History of Trunks. Yes, she destroyed Vegeta, but a large part of that fact was that she had infinite energy. Trunks thought they were fighting on fairly even ground (much better than Trunks did versus the Androids in his own time), but the reason he lost was that for every move Vegeta made, he slowly lost stamina, while the Androids didn't lose any because their power was infinite. So to say Android 18 is twice Vegeta's strength can't be true. If we do an "effective" combat power level, then maybe she's twice as strong as Vegeta, but in terms of raw power, Vegeta's not THAT far off (think of Trunks vs Cell, Trunks was "stronger" but weaker in actual combat).

i disagree.

android 16 was definitely stronger than imperfect cell, imperfect cell could not damage android 16 and android 16 was destroying cell, which is why cell had to resort to sneak absorbing 17 to become semiperfect cell

and android 18 destroyed vegeta not because of stamina. vegeta did not even damage 18 at all, she blocked his kicks with her arm and she even let him kick her head without flinching. all his blasts did was damage her clothes.

ultra super saiyan trunks was physically as strong or stronger than perfect cell, but because of his bulk he had no speed, so cell could easily fight against trunks, that's it. he's not really "weaker"

RyLai

United States477 Posts

September 24 2013 10:30 GMT

#195

On September 24 2013 19:16 Olinimmm wrote:

Show nested quote +

Throughout the whole fight? no way. Only after Frieza increased his power did Goku start using the kaioken

^ I like it when someone actually pays attention to the finer details among the little details.

Sometimes, it gets a little annoying each time someone questions the little details for me to open up my (friend's) books to look at what specifically happened to explain it to everyone... =.=

1) Frieza and Goku fight, not taking things seriously
2) Frieza and Goku get somewhat serious, Goku may or may not have used Kaioken at this point (there was kaioken-looking art), but it is of a low multiplier. A colored version of the manga would help... I think one was released? Don't have access to it though. That art wasn't used prior to that point, so it's likely that it was a Kaioken, though again, it just proves it wasn't used at the beginning, thus proving that Goku in base form is much stronger than Piccolo, who is over 1 million in power level.
3) Frieza calculated the extent of Goku's full powers and concludes that he could beat Goku with half his power. Goku can't believe what he's saying, cause he hasn't used Kaioken x10 yet, and the difference with the power he was using at that point and Kaioken x10 should be a massive one. Then Goku says "he's not bluffing" right before Frieza initiates the first attack on him.
4) Goku goes all in with a Kaioken x20, and Frieza holds his ground. Frieza still has access to 100%, so likely, Frieza's call that he can beat Goku's max (at that time) with just 50% of his power is accurate (though he was very surprised, so he could've exceeded Frieza's 50% estimation, who knows).

iXphobos

Germany1464 Posts

September 24 2013 10:41 GMT

#196

Man, this thread wins it all.

And of course, i think we can all agree that Satan is the strongest of all.

Olinimmm

51 Posts

September 24 2013 10:43 GMT

#197

Btw why do you put SSJ gotenks pre>>>>>>>>>>Base gotenks post? It's heavily implied by both Gotenks and Piccolo that his base is superior to his SSJ pre rosat. At the very least it should be close, otherwise why the hell would Gotenks believe he has the slightest chance against Super Buu?

RyLai

United States477 Posts

September 24 2013 10:44 GMT

#198

On September 24 2013 19:25 saltywet wrote:

Show nested quote +

Cell damaged 16. Their fight was even until 16 got a grab on Cell, threw him into a ground, then used Hell Flash. He wasn't destroying Cell. If you're citing the anime, I'll end the discussion here.

Read the manga. Even the anime has this statement. They're competitive until Vegeta runs out of energy. Not saying they're super close, but similar to Frieza vs Goku, maybe a little lower. Definitely closer than Trunks vs Androids, and that was ~50%.

USS Trunks was far superior to Cell at the moment (in his surpressed form) in terms of pure physical strength. Aside from that, reread my statement. Trunks is weaker in terms of combat ability, even if he is physically stronger by a large margin. If you're disagreeing the fact that Trunks is weaker in terms of combat ability, Trunks never landed a single hit on Cell once becoming a USS. All Cell would have to do is dodge until Trunks run out of stamina (Cell's stamina reserves should GREATLY exceed Trunks'). At that point, it's a TKO - Cell wins because Trunks cannot keep up with him. Cell never has to fight USS Trunks to win the fight (though he can actually destroy USS Trunks with his full power).

TheQuiff

Scotland91 Posts

September 24 2013 10:48 GMT

#199

Hello folks, Currently watch DBZ for first time. I'm on namek saga but i saw the figures i think they may be wrong.
+ Show Spoiler +

Kui: about 18,000
Dodoria: 22,000
Zarbon: 23,000
-Transformed: very likely around 27,000
Ginyu Force (except Guldo and Ginyu): Between 30,000 and 60,000; generally accepted around 42,000-45,000
Ginyu: 120,000
-in Goku's Body: 23,000

Gohan:
-about 1,500 upon arrival
-14,000 after Guru unlocks potential
Krillin:
-about 1,500 upon arrival
-13,000 after Guru unlocks potential
Vegeta:
-upon arrival: 24,000
-after Zarbon: ~30,000
-After fighting Recoome: 250,000 (according to V-Jump, which I guess is considered a good source)
Nail: 42,000
Goku: 90,000
-Surpressed: 5,000
-Kaioken x2: 180,000-Kaioken x10: 900,000

Vegeta has 250k afer fighting Recoome but nothing happened to show how he becamse that strong. When Goku landed and fought ginyu force Vegeta was shocked at his power, then he come to realise he was a super saiyan. As well if Vegata had 250,000 at that point he would have been able to kill Goku and Ginyu without a problem. I think that figure is unrealistic but i may be wrong. Can anyone expand on this please.

Olinimmm

51 Posts

September 24 2013 10:58 GMT

#200

On September 24 2013 19:48 TheQuiff wrote:
Hello folks, Currently watch DBZ for first time. I'm on namek saga but i saw the figures i think they may be wrong.
+ Show Spoiler +

Vegeta probably hadn't gotten the full powerup from the zenkai for a while after his fight with Recoome. He could've killed Goku after Goku was injured when Ginyu switched bodies, but he wanted his help against Frieza.

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