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The Chess Thread - Page 115

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Jockmcplop
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom9613 Posts
October 06 2022 14:34 GMT
#2281
On October 06 2022 23:33 Mikau313 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 06 2022 23:31 Jockmcplop wrote:
On October 06 2022 23:29 0x64 wrote:
I feel like this has been the most impolite way to express ones opinion over such a matter that should not escalate in such agressive communication.


Yeah he got my back up when he started being an asshole earlier and now i'm all in.


I think you'll find that the person who started all the personal attacks was, in fact, you.


On October 06 2022 21:37 Mikau313 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 06 2022 21:36 Jockmcplop wrote:
On October 06 2022 21:30 Mikau313 wrote:
On October 06 2022 18:11 0x64 wrote:
On October 06 2022 17:51 Mikau313 wrote:
On October 06 2022 17:34 0x64 wrote:
Not fishy, but progress faster than Fisher + not being able to explain his moves and thinking is what is bothering top level players.

The reason they get this vibes is that they are used to talked with other 2700+ all the time, and they know the thinking and how well they throw lines after the game because they spent their time on those key questions.

Hans is a Grand master level player, so he will be able to fool his understanding, because frankly, I can't tell apart a 2500 and a 2700. (I am around 2000 level.)

I really think the public has very little to bring on the chess side. Now, should an online cheater be allowed to play OTB, this is a new kind of cheating.



Not only the speed of his progress, but also the fact that he was stuck at around 2300 for years before he suddenly shot up.

Not only the fact that he can't explain his moves, but also the fact that he supposedly "analysed the opening Carlsen used just this morning", even though Carlsen only played that particular opening once before in his life.


Being stuck at a level is common with young players. There has also been 2 years of COVID period. Other kids have shot up as well.

https://ratings.fide.com/profile/36083534/chart
Here is a similar case, that will end up shooting up to 2700, once things clicks.
Of course, this kid was 2400 at age 12, but you can see a classical "pause"

https://ratings.fide.com/profile/25059530/chart
Praggnanandhaa will also continue his rise, but got stuck at 2600 for 2 years.
No one thought his progress had stopped, just that improving his chess was not resulting in improved tournament results.

One possible reason chess players hit a level cap in rating is that usually to reach the "next level" you need to open your game or else you end up racking draws with lower rated players. So you start taking victories from stronger players, but also take losses from weaker players, until you manage to calibrate.

Of course MVL, Nepo, Carlsen have non-stop progress to the top, mark of the champions... But it is funny how actual youngster have all a cap during COVID 2 years... So let's count the progress argument out of the Hans situation.

The rest speaks for itself



He was stuck at 2300 for 3 years from 2015 to 2018, not during Covid. His rating went up from 2018 to Covid, and then shot up when Covid hit, just as people stopped playing OTB and everything moved online. That could ofcourse be a coincidence (just like how he 'coincidentally' practiced for an opening that Magnus never plays), but it's one more thing that smells fishy in a series of fishy things regarding Niemann.

On October 06 2022 18:13 Jockmcplop wrote:
On October 06 2022 18:07 Mikau313 wrote:
There are two seperate issues at play.

"Magnus acting like an absolute baby" and "Niemann having cheated regularly for years (plus a bunch of circumstantial evidence that it wasn't limited to just online cheating)".

The response to the second isn't impacted at all by the first. I'm not denying that Carlsen behaved horribly in this. I just don't think it's at all relevant to the question of "what should be done to people who have cheated continuously for years (even if there is no proof and only circumstantial evidence yet of it happening OTB)".

Let's imagine for a second a world where Magnus hadn't started this shitshow the way it did, and the chess.com article/paper had come out without any of the Magnus bagage. What do you think should be done about Niemann in that world? How do you think the chess world at large would have felt about this whole thing in that world? If your answer to those is "maybe don't invite Niemann to tournaments anymore", why would the answer be any different in the world where Carlsen did start this shitshow?


He should not be allowed to play in online tournaments, especially not if it affects his FIDE ratings.
Simple. The problem is online, ban him from online tournaments.


To use an SC2 analogy, if somebody was known to maphack in ESL weekly cups, would/should that person still be invited to offline events, especially when part of the reason he got the invite was his success in online cups he's known to maphack in?


The thing is, there is a really serious issue raised by how Magnus has behaved. Why should active players be allowed to own the tournaments, and the companies running tournaments? Before now, it was probably a 'why not?' situation, but we've been shown why not. Magnus has too much influence over the chess world as a whole, and when a thing like this can happen just because he wanted to cry about losing a game, that is huge for the chess world.

So as well as banning Neimann from online play, they should ban players from playing in tournaments that they have a financial stake in, because Magnus will have made alot of money from this situation.


I'm not disagreeing with you here, it's just not all that relevant to the question of "what should happen to Niemann".

On October 06 2022 20:08 Magic Powers wrote:
On October 06 2022 17:55 Mikau313 wrote:
On October 06 2022 17:50 Magic Powers wrote:
On October 06 2022 17:22 Mikau313 wrote:
On October 06 2022 14:37 Magic Powers wrote:
If Carlsen wanted to make a point about not playing a cheater, why did he play Niemann and only protested after he lost? He said he already had suspicions before. That one game changed absolutely nothing.


The fact that Carlsen handled this exceptionally poorly doesn't detract at all from the fact that somebody with a history of cheating and lying about it like Niemann has no business playing in official tournaments.


On October 06 2022 16:51 Slydie wrote:


I haven't even seen any theories about how Niemann allegedly cheated in live chess, that he made a single great move is circumstantial. Other datasets have concluded he is a normal player.


You think this is all based on 'a single great move'?

Other datasets have concluded there's a lot of fishy things going on here, even if they don't prove cheating outright. In addition to that, his behaviour around the Sinquefield Cup game against Carlsen has been incredibly fishy. Still doesn't prove cheating, but it should at least give one pause.

And even if they can't prove OTB cheating, the fact that he's built his rating, his career, his skill on cheating in online games really should be enough of a disqualifier to be invited to other pro events.


The idea that no proven cheater should ever be allowed to play OTB chess is not the reason why Niemann is in the spotlight. This was specifically about him and not anyone else, because no other chess player was named in this whole ordeal and the origin of the controversy was Carlsen's actions against Niemann.
The debate over cheating in general can be had without dragging Niemann's name through the mud and running a witchhunt against him. If the conclusion of such a debate ends up being that all cheaters (online or OTB) should be prohibited from playing any official/titled/prized chess, then this can be done in a way that there's no focus on specific individuals, which would be the healthy way of going about it. On the other hand if the conclusion is that OTB play should be permitted for proven online cheaters, then the witchhunt against Niemann also needs to end. Regardless in both cases the recent actions against Niemann are unjustified.
Furthermore, this debate must first be had and cannot be decided as of now, and in particular it cannot be a coercive action by those who favor a general prohibition for cheaters. Using Niemann's name for this purpose now, when it's clear that the debate would not be about him specificaly but about all cheaters, is unacceptable.


This is all, sorry to say, utter nonsense.

It doesn't matter what the origin of the controversy was. It doesn't matter that Carlsen acted like a little baby. What matters is Niemann's history of cheating, the proof that has come out since the start of this controversy and what the consequences of that should be.

The focus is on Niemann because he got caught cheating in 100+ games. There is nothing unfair about discussing consequences for those caught cheating, whether they partain to Niemann particularly or caught cheaters in general.

"This debate is only happening because Niemann got caught, so there can't be consequences against Niemann" is utterly asinine.


Proof of what?


Proof of at least 100 games in actual tournaments for actual prize money/points where he cheated.


There's a reason they won't ban him from OTB tournaments.
You would have no-one left playing them after they finished banning every GM who ever cheated online.


So we moved on from "he shouldn't be banned" to "well everybody does it" now?

Making a really compelling argument there.


This, with the shitty sarcasm and general bad attitude, is what pissed me off.
RIP Meatloaf <3
Mikau313
Profile Joined January 2021
Netherlands230 Posts
October 06 2022 14:40 GMT
#2282
You were clearly arguing in bad faith, ignoring every point I brought up and then responded with a one-line non-argument.

If you don't want people to point out that "everybody does it" is not in fact a compelling argument, maybe don't make that argument. There's a reason it's one of the most well known logical fallacies.
Jockmcplop
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom9613 Posts
October 06 2022 14:44 GMT
#2283
Whatever, this is now stupid.
I'm out.
RIP Meatloaf <3
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
October 10 2022 22:28 GMT
#2284
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Bacillus
Profile Joined August 2010
Finland1918 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-10-11 12:30:36
October 11 2022 11:51 GMT
#2285
GM Alejandro Ramirez is pretty careful to avoid swinging the axe here, but it seems that the top GM opinion is shifting towards Hank cheating in over the board games somewhere. It could be just the pros catching up with the current speculation and rumors, but it could also indicate that there's at least some newly discovered suspicious games or patterns in Hank's over the board games. (1:16:00 in the vid if the timestamp doesn't work).



The vid was released 7th of October, so it's fairly recent.

As my overall take on this thing, it feels very unlikely that all these weird circumstances from his amazing rise in ranking to the shaky analysis to his online game history are all coincidences. Still, I'd hate to be anyone who has to call the decision on this unless there's some more conclusive evidence being presented.

I wish Magnus had found some better way to handle the situation, but I tend to think he has tried at least some alternative approaches before resorting to the public protest. It is likely very hard situation to approach as a competitor unless the organizers are actually willing to put additional effort into their anticheat systems.
M3t4PhYzX
Profile Joined March 2019
Poland4182 Posts
October 12 2022 08:16 GMT
#2286
On October 11 2022 20:51 Bacillus wrote:
GM Alejandro Ramirez is pretty careful to avoid swinging the axe here, but it seems that the top GM opinion is shifting towards Hank cheating in over the board games somewhere. It could be just the pros catching up with the current speculation and rumors, but it could also indicate that there's at least some newly discovered suspicious games or patterns in Hank's over the board games. (1:16:00 in the vid if the timestamp doesn't work).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmHyqiKl7GM&t=4560s

The vid was released 7th of October, so it's fairly recent.

As my overall take on this thing, it feels very unlikely that all these weird circumstances from his amazing rise in ranking to the shaky analysis to his online game history are all coincidences. Still, I'd hate to be anyone who has to call the decision on this unless there's some more conclusive evidence being presented.

I wish Magnus had found some better way to handle the situation, but I tend to think he has tried at least some alternative approaches before resorting to the public protest. It is likely very hard situation to approach as a competitor unless the organizers are actually willing to put additional effort into their anticheat systems.

who's "Hank"?

here's Maxim Dlugy's statement on the matter, btw --> https://en.chessbase.com/post/gm-dlugy-on-carlsen-niemann
odi profanum vulgus et arceo
0x64
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Finland4550 Posts
October 12 2022 09:01 GMT
#2287
On October 12 2022 17:16 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2022 20:51 Bacillus wrote:
GM Alejandro Ramirez is pretty careful to avoid swinging the axe here, but it seems that the top GM opinion is shifting towards Hank cheating in over the board games somewhere. It could be just the pros catching up with the current speculation and rumors, but it could also indicate that there's at least some newly discovered suspicious games or patterns in Hank's over the board games. (1:16:00 in the vid if the timestamp doesn't work).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmHyqiKl7GM&t=4560s

The vid was released 7th of October, so it's fairly recent.

As my overall take on this thing, it feels very unlikely that all these weird circumstances from his amazing rise in ranking to the shaky analysis to his online game history are all coincidences. Still, I'd hate to be anyone who has to call the decision on this unless there's some more conclusive evidence being presented.

I wish Magnus had found some better way to handle the situation, but I tend to think he has tried at least some alternative approaches before resorting to the public protest. It is likely very hard situation to approach as a competitor unless the organizers are actually willing to put additional effort into their anticheat systems.

who's "Hank"?

here's Maxim Dlugy's statement on the matter, btw --> https://en.chessbase.com/post/gm-dlugy-on-carlsen-niemann


It's a typo, Hank -> Hans
Dump of assembler code from 0xffffffec to 0x64: End of assembler dump.
RKC
Profile Joined June 2012
2848 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-10-12 12:56:51
October 12 2022 12:55 GMT
#2288
On October 11 2022 20:51 Bacillus wrote:
GM Alejandro Ramirez is pretty careful to avoid swinging the axe here, but it seems that the top GM opinion is shifting towards Hank cheating in over the board games somewhere. It could be just the pros catching up with the current speculation and rumors, but it could also indicate that there's at least some newly discovered suspicious games or patterns in Hank's over the board games. (1:16:00 in the vid if the timestamp doesn't work).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmHyqiKl7GM&t=4560s

The vid was released 7th of October, so it's fairly recent.

As my overall take on this thing, it feels very unlikely that all these weird circumstances from his amazing rise in ranking to the shaky analysis to his online game history are all coincidences. Still, I'd hate to be anyone who has to call the decision on this unless there's some more conclusive evidence being presented.

I wish Magnus had found some better way to handle the situation, but I tend to think he has tried at least some alternative approaches before resorting to the public protest. It is likely very hard situation to approach as a competitor unless the organizers are actually willing to put additional effort into their anticheat systems.


Exactly. A lot of top GMs have been quite vocal about their suspicions - Fabi, Nepo, Levon, etc. And it's not just the old guard. Just google "Christopher Yoo Disrespect" to get a feel of the sentiments of youngsters (and a kickstart to a new chess meme). And a prominent Indian chess coach voiced support for Magnus. In fact, the strongest critics are those with no skin left in the game (Kasparov and Short). Personally, I would give more weight to the opinions of actual competitors whose livelihood depends on the game rather than armchair critics.

So all this focus on whether Magnus acted in bad faith is really a red herring that misses the point.

The point is not whether someone has cheated OTB in some specific game or not. Rather, the issue is whether the chess community should allow rampant cheaters to participate in chess competitions.
gg no re thx
sertas
Profile Joined April 2012
Sweden885 Posts
October 12 2022 13:43 GMT
#2289
On October 12 2022 21:55 RKC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2022 20:51 Bacillus wrote:
GM Alejandro Ramirez is pretty careful to avoid swinging the axe here, but it seems that the top GM opinion is shifting towards Hank cheating in over the board games somewhere. It could be just the pros catching up with the current speculation and rumors, but it could also indicate that there's at least some newly discovered suspicious games or patterns in Hank's over the board games. (1:16:00 in the vid if the timestamp doesn't work).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmHyqiKl7GM&t=4560s

The vid was released 7th of October, so it's fairly recent.

As my overall take on this thing, it feels very unlikely that all these weird circumstances from his amazing rise in ranking to the shaky analysis to his online game history are all coincidences. Still, I'd hate to be anyone who has to call the decision on this unless there's some more conclusive evidence being presented.

I wish Magnus had found some better way to handle the situation, but I tend to think he has tried at least some alternative approaches before resorting to the public protest. It is likely very hard situation to approach as a competitor unless the organizers are actually willing to put additional effort into their anticheat systems.


Exactly. A lot of top GMs have been quite vocal about their suspicions - Fabi, Nepo, Levon, etc. And it's not just the old guard. Just google "Christopher Yoo Disrespect" to get a feel of the sentiments of youngsters (and a kickstart to a new chess meme). And a prominent Indian chess coach voiced support for Magnus. In fact, the strongest critics are those with no skin left in the game (Kasparov and Short). Personally, I would give more weight to the opinions of actual competitors whose livelihood depends on the game rather than armchair critics.

So all this focus on whether Magnus acted in bad faith is really a red herring that misses the point.

The point is not whether someone has cheated OTB in some specific game or not. Rather, the issue is whether the chess community should allow rampant cheaters to participate in chess competitions.




Of course Hans should be allowed anywhere he is qualified to play in otb. There is no evidence at all he cheated in the last 2+ years (online and offline) and no evidence he ever cheated otb.

Bring evidence then you can ban Hans from online and otb no problem.

On a side note I would argue Magnus benefitted Hans career actually after all this because I think there's no way he's cheating at sinquenfield and us champs so he's legit to the extent of being around 2650 elo strength which most players at that rating are unknown to even chess players like me.
sharkie
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Austria18390 Posts
October 12 2022 14:17 GMT
#2290
Some chess pro said: doesnt matter where he cheated (and there is proof he cheated online) he should be banned everywhere (including OTB) and I agree with that.
Jockmcplop
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom9613 Posts
October 12 2022 14:26 GMT
#2291
On October 12 2022 23:17 sharkie wrote:
Some chess pro said: doesnt matter where he cheated (and there is proof he cheated online) he should be banned everywhere (including OTB) and I agree with that.

They would need to change the rules, or make an exception just for this situation.
RIP Meatloaf <3
RKC
Profile Joined June 2012
2848 Posts
October 12 2022 15:47 GMT
#2292
And systemic change is what top pros are advocating for. And not to specifically crucify a single cheater. The debate has moved beyond what happened in Sinquefield Cup.
gg no re thx
Bacillus
Profile Joined August 2010
Finland1918 Posts
October 12 2022 17:26 GMT
#2293
On October 12 2022 23:17 sharkie wrote:
Some chess pro said: doesnt matter where he cheated (and there is proof he cheated online) he should be banned everywhere (including OTB) and I agree with that.

I think another thing that needs to be addressed and clarified is that being young doesn't give you an excuse for cheating past certain point. In many non-physical competitions talented 15-year-olds are capable of competing at very high level, up to a point where they have all kinds of potential benefits from cheating. Being a future prospect may net you invitations, sponsorship money, high level mentorship, stream viewers and all kinds of other things that can result in direct or indirect financial gain or competitive advantage in the longer run. Once you're a serious contender, being an immature teenager isn't a good excuse anymore.
pmh
Profile Joined March 2016
1352 Posts
October 12 2022 19:05 GMT
#2294
Chesscom itself is also to blame for the current situation.

It was very disapointing to see how many chances cheaters get on the website. How politely they aproach cheating title holders and try everything to give them an out or another chance. Hans had cheated over 100 times yet they still gave him an out. What message does that send?
0x64
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Finland4550 Posts
October 12 2022 19:22 GMT
#2295
On October 12 2022 21:55 RKC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2022 20:51 Bacillus wrote:
GM Alejandro Ramirez is pretty careful to avoid swinging the axe here, but it seems that the top GM opinion is shifting towards Hank cheating in over the board games somewhere. It could be just the pros catching up with the current speculation and rumors, but it could also indicate that there's at least some newly discovered suspicious games or patterns in Hank's over the board games. (1:16:00 in the vid if the timestamp doesn't work).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmHyqiKl7GM&t=4560s

The vid was released 7th of October, so it's fairly recent.

As my overall take on this thing, it feels very unlikely that all these weird circumstances from his amazing rise in ranking to the shaky analysis to his online game history are all coincidences. Still, I'd hate to be anyone who has to call the decision on this unless there's some more conclusive evidence being presented.

I wish Magnus had found some better way to handle the situation, but I tend to think he has tried at least some alternative approaches before resorting to the public protest. It is likely very hard situation to approach as a competitor unless the organizers are actually willing to put additional effort into their anticheat systems.


Exactly. A lot of top GMs have been quite vocal about their suspicions - Fabi, Nepo, Levon, etc. And it's not just the old guard. Just google "Christopher Yoo Disrespect" to get a feel of the sentiments of youngsters (and a kickstart to a new chess meme). And a prominent Indian chess coach voiced support for Magnus. In fact, the strongest critics are those with no skin left in the game (Kasparov and Short). Personally, I would give more weight to the opinions of actual competitors whose livelihood depends on the game rather than armchair critics.

So all this focus on whether Magnus acted in bad faith is really a red herring that misses the point.

The point is not whether someone has cheated OTB in some specific game or not. Rather, the issue is whether the chess community should allow rampant cheaters to participate in chess competitions.


Didn't Kasparov critic Magnus for not defending the World championship title?
Dump of assembler code from 0xffffffec to 0x64: End of assembler dump.
RKC
Profile Joined June 2012
2848 Posts
October 13 2022 03:11 GMT
#2296
On October 13 2022 04:22 0x64 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 12 2022 21:55 RKC wrote:
On October 11 2022 20:51 Bacillus wrote:
GM Alejandro Ramirez is pretty careful to avoid swinging the axe here, but it seems that the top GM opinion is shifting towards Hank cheating in over the board games somewhere. It could be just the pros catching up with the current speculation and rumors, but it could also indicate that there's at least some newly discovered suspicious games or patterns in Hank's over the board games. (1:16:00 in the vid if the timestamp doesn't work).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmHyqiKl7GM&t=4560s

The vid was released 7th of October, so it's fairly recent.

As my overall take on this thing, it feels very unlikely that all these weird circumstances from his amazing rise in ranking to the shaky analysis to his online game history are all coincidences. Still, I'd hate to be anyone who has to call the decision on this unless there's some more conclusive evidence being presented.

I wish Magnus had found some better way to handle the situation, but I tend to think he has tried at least some alternative approaches before resorting to the public protest. It is likely very hard situation to approach as a competitor unless the organizers are actually willing to put additional effort into their anticheat systems.


Exactly. A lot of top GMs have been quite vocal about their suspicions - Fabi, Nepo, Levon, etc. And it's not just the old guard. Just google "Christopher Yoo Disrespect" to get a feel of the sentiments of youngsters (and a kickstart to a new chess meme). And a prominent Indian chess coach voiced support for Magnus. In fact, the strongest critics are those with no skin left in the game (Kasparov and Short). Personally, I would give more weight to the opinions of actual competitors whose livelihood depends on the game rather than armchair critics.

So all this focus on whether Magnus acted in bad faith is really a red herring that misses the point.

The point is not whether someone has cheated OTB in some specific game or not. Rather, the issue is whether the chess community should allow rampant cheaters to participate in chess competitions.


Didn't Kasparov critic Magnus for not defending the World championship title?


Kasparov is generally a strong critic of Magnus. Like condemning Magnus' decision to take a draw in the last classical game against Fabi in their championship match when Magnus had a slight edge. Not sure what their relationship is now. The short time that Kasparov coached Magnus suggest some personality or philosophical clash between them. Nothing like the bad blood between Karjakin and Magnus, but my feeling is that Kasparov isn't that fond of Magnus. Anyway, this is all a digressment. The spotlight shouldn't focus on Magnus.
gg no re thx
stevejohnson
Profile Joined April 2022
3 Posts
October 13 2022 08:00 GMT
#2297
--- Nuked ---
M3t4PhYzX
Profile Joined March 2019
Poland4182 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-10-19 19:30:03
October 19 2022 19:29 GMT
#2298


wtaf happened here?!?

has to be the most bizarre thing i've ever seen happening during a major professional chess tournament.. and it's vs Niemann again, too!

very, very weird stuff..
odi profanum vulgus et arceo
M3t4PhYzX
Profile Joined March 2019
Poland4182 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-10-19 19:33:19
October 19 2022 19:31 GMT
#2299


apparent explanation is quite.. curious, too.. what the heck was Sevian thinking there?

mind bogglingly odd behaviour
odi profanum vulgus et arceo
pmh
Profile Joined March 2016
1352 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-10-19 23:26:04
October 19 2022 23:25 GMT
#2300
On October 20 2022 04:31 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RlWDjlfn_g

apparent explanation is quite.. curious, too.. what the heck was Sevian thinking there?

mind bogglingly odd behaviour


The crown of the king fell off,you can see him holding it and fiddling with it in the vid.
That is so hilarious tbh lol,like when does that ever happen.

Black probably was very confused and his instinct was to try repair it. Technically he should have called the arbiter to take care of it but this is such an extra-ordinary situation that you cant really blame him from picking it up and trying to repair it.

Quiet funny all in all.
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