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On July 24 2013 04:17 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 04:01 xbeo wrote:On July 24 2013 03:46 GreenGringo wrote:
Clubbing, and especially dancing, feels to me a lot like deliberately behaving like idiots because attractive women tend to be idiots.
It feels a lot like a pointless ritual that men go through merely because women are pious enough to believe in it. Nothing is gained from the experience but the opportunity to get laid. Which puts you in an awkward position anyway, because you've just had sex with someone you don't know.
Add to that all the time spent working out and making yourself trendy to gain an advantage over the next guy in the club, and you have a recipe for a decadent, shallow, atomized culture that gives one the impression that civilization is in its last throes. I didn't understand (electro) clubs and festivals until I took mdma. Then everything made sense. The music made sense, the funny looking people biting their cheeks made sense, the sunglasses at night made sense and dancing felt like having sex for hours. And I know that sounds stupid and like a recommendation. But I just want to say that its hard to understand for someone who didnt experience it. What I can recommend is one of the countless documentaries about ecstasy/mdma. Of course there are people who just get drunk and try to get sex but I think those are a minority. Taking drugs is a much more sophisticated way to assuage your savage instincts, or whatever, than getting drunk for the Nth time and engaging in some Stone Age dancing ritual. You actually see the world differently and experience something new. Then you turn the page and you don't need to go back (although it's a shame that clubbers don't share this philosophy).
This type of attitude doesn't get you anywhere. Who says you cannot develop a relationship whether it be friends/sex/romance, it is all relative on how you proceed in certain situations. I've met some amazing people in different clubs (Mexico, Vancouver, Whistler, and even my home town) and do keep in contact with them. A club is what you make it to be, there is no set out cookie cutter plan, that is just you being shallow and not wanting to understand the environment that it creates.
Like it has been said.... Clubs are certainly a go to place to find good looking individuals for one night stands but how does one make such a generalization on what can be a very mixed set of people in one place.
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On July 24 2013 03:48 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 03:46 GreenGringo wrote:
........ a decadent, shallow, atomized culture that gives one the impression that civilization is in its last throes. Funny that reading comments like yours gives me the same impression. There's nothing quite like holding the gavel ehh? Oh well! 
An educated and well formalized evaluation of a common custom gives you the impression that civilization is in its last throes? You are holding the gavel as well but you give nothing substantial in your verdict. I think GreenGringo was on point with his comment and gave some good reasons on why this is the case.
It is a shallow culture. It is a manipulative culture. It is a deceptive and illusive culture. However, I know some people may STILL argue that it isn't. One thing we can agree on, I think, is that it is an unhealthy culture (in all regards).
Edit: Referenced the wrong person.
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On July 24 2013 04:39 willoc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 03:48 farvacola wrote:On July 24 2013 03:46 GreenGringo wrote:
........ a decadent, shallow, atomized culture that gives one the impression that civilization is in its last throes. Funny that reading comments like yours gives me the same impression. There's nothing quite like holding the gavel ehh? Oh well! An educated and well formalized evaluation of a common custom gives you the impression that civilization is in its last throes? You are holding the gavel as well but you give nothing substantial in your verdict. I think GreenGringo was on point with his comment and gave some good reasons on why this is the case. It is a shallow culture. It is a manipulative culture. It is a deceptive and illusive culture. However, I know some people may STILL argue that it isn't. One thing we can agree on, I think, is that it is an unhealthy culture (in all regards). Edit: Referenced the wrong person.
No, we cannot all agree on that. What constitutes "healthy", outside of fairly standard dietary concerns, is a point of major contention across many demographics, be they age, gender, race, or education level. "Culture" in general can oftentimes be described as shallow, doing so in regards to clubbing culture is by no means a noteworthy observation, nor is it very productive. I mean, come on, you are coming out in favor of the guy who basically said, "Attractive women are shallow, people who go to clubs are shallow, loud music is bad, darkness is bad.". I don't think I need to point out the glaring flaws in that heuristic.
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It is a shallow culture. It is a manipulative culture. It is a deceptive and illusive culture. However, I know some people may STILL argue that it isn't. One thing we can agree on, I think, is that it is an unhealthy culture (in all regards).
You think that modern day culture is unhealthy "in all regards"? Wow, that's weird. If you meant to refer specifically to clubbing, you probably shouldn't have lumped all of culture in there, but whatever. Either way, your point is moronic because there isn't much to compare our "culture" to in any meaningful sense, and because you more or less have no idea what you're talking about.
I don't go to clubs. I don't have sex with random strangers. I think it's an utter waste of time and says something about one's character if one does so, but that doesn't really matter. The fact is that most people who go to clubs go to them for fun, not because it's the meaning of their life. It's just something they go out and do on a Friday night. Why that's so reprehensible is beyond me. Obviously people enjoy club atmosphere, obviously some people like having no-strings-attached sex, and obviously some people who do these things are shitty. But to move from that to sweeping statements like culture being "shallow" or "manipulative" or "deceptive and illusive" just makes me want to ask you, oh wise and noble one, what a culture without those traits would actually look like, and if it has ever existed anywhere in the course of human history.
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Honestly if everyone is going to start the x is best and y is bad for you, you might aswell fuck over and die right now because everything is fucking pointless anyway. :/
Just chill and do your thing, as long as it harms no other individuals and preferably the planet I'm living on I don't give a fuck what your reasons are for doing shit :D But then again you could say I can fuck over this planet because it's your life and you're entitled to fucking it up ~~ Nevermind, proceed.
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On July 24 2013 04:50 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +It is a shallow culture. It is a manipulative culture. It is a deceptive and illusive culture. However, I know some people may STILL argue that it isn't. One thing we can agree on, I think, is that it is an unhealthy culture (in all regards). You think that modern day culture is unhealthy "in all regards"? Wow, that's weird. If you meant to refer specifically to clubbing, you probably shouldn't have lumped all of culture in there, but whatever. Either way, your point is moronic because there isn't much to compare our "culture" to in any meaningful sense, and because you more or less have no idea what you're talking about. I don't go to clubs. I don't have sex with random strangers. I think it's an utter waste of time and says something about one's character if one does so, but that doesn't really matter. The fact is that most people who go to clubs go to them for fun, not because it's the meaning of their life. It's just something they go out and do on a Friday night. Why that's so reprehensible is beyond me. Obviously people enjoy club atmosphere, obviously some people like having no-strings-attached sex, and obviously some people who do these things are shitty. But to move from that to sweeping statements like culture being "shallow" or "manipulative" or "deceptive and illusive" just makes me want to ask you, oh wise and noble one, what a culture without those traits would actually look like, and if it has ever existed anywhere in the course of human history.
Of course it was about club culture. It wouldn't make sense otherwise.
I don't understand what you think I was talking about otherwise, The definition of culture in general? I don't get it.
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going to clubs is not my kind of thing, but I respect it, as I can both see the appeal and fun in it (it is just not the kind of entertainment I seek. Just like I really enjoy Two and a Half men and there are so many people hating on it for its flat jokes, sexism and the likes. To each his/her own). If clubbing is to pump yourself up with drugs and drink until you reach coma status, I'm sad about those people, but whatever makes them happy and does not hurt other people is fine by me.
For those arguing about it being shallow - it is a thing like an amusement park. You don't go there for long term relationships. You go there for the fun, to enjoy the ride. Even though the ride might not have any deeper meaning. For some it is meeting the people. For some it is dancing or the music. For some it is the easy girls or the drinking. For some it is the feeling of anonymity in a croud. Again, whatever makes people happy.
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On July 24 2013 04:45 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 04:39 willoc wrote:On July 24 2013 03:48 farvacola wrote:On July 24 2013 03:46 GreenGringo wrote:
........ a decadent, shallow, atomized culture that gives one the impression that civilization is in its last throes. Funny that reading comments like yours gives me the same impression. There's nothing quite like holding the gavel ehh? Oh well! An educated and well formalized evaluation of a common custom gives you the impression that civilization is in its last throes? You are holding the gavel as well but you give nothing substantial in your verdict. I think GreenGringo was on point with his comment and gave some good reasons on why this is the case. It is a shallow culture. It is a manipulative culture. It is a deceptive and illusive culture. However, I know some people may STILL argue that it isn't. One thing we can agree on, I think, is that it is an unhealthy culture (in all regards). Edit: Referenced the wrong person. No, we cannot all agree on that. What constitutes "healthy", outside of fairly standard dietary concerns, is a point of major contention across many demographics, be they age, gender, race, or education level. "Culture" in general can oftentimes be described as shallow, doing so in regards to clubbing culture is by no means a noteworthy observation, nor is it very productive. I mean, come on, you are coming out in favor of the guy who basically said, "Attractive women are shallow, people who go to clubs are shallow, loud music is bad, darkness is bad.". I don't think I need to point out the glaring flaws in that heuristic.
I believe Green was talking about club culture and the people you generally meet there. I believe he was also pointing out that the people there are usually materialistic (looks & money driven). The only saving grace of clubs is the people who honestly go out there to only dance (the 1% ?). You could say another saving grace is music but too bad almost every club focuses on popular music only.
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On July 24 2013 05:00 willoc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 04:50 Shiori wrote:It is a shallow culture. It is a manipulative culture. It is a deceptive and illusive culture. However, I know some people may STILL argue that it isn't. One thing we can agree on, I think, is that it is an unhealthy culture (in all regards). You think that modern day culture is unhealthy "in all regards"? Wow, that's weird. If you meant to refer specifically to clubbing, you probably shouldn't have lumped all of culture in there, but whatever. Either way, your point is moronic because there isn't much to compare our "culture" to in any meaningful sense, and because you more or less have no idea what you're talking about. I don't go to clubs. I don't have sex with random strangers. I think it's an utter waste of time and says something about one's character if one does so, but that doesn't really matter. The fact is that most people who go to clubs go to them for fun, not because it's the meaning of their life. It's just something they go out and do on a Friday night. Why that's so reprehensible is beyond me. Obviously people enjoy club atmosphere, obviously some people like having no-strings-attached sex, and obviously some people who do these things are shitty. But to move from that to sweeping statements like culture being "shallow" or "manipulative" or "deceptive and illusive" just makes me want to ask you, oh wise and noble one, what a culture without those traits would actually look like, and if it has ever existed anywhere in the course of human history. Of course it was about club culture. It wouldn't make sense otherwise. I don't understand what you think I was talking about otherwise, The definition of culture in general? I don't get it.
Probably because GreenGringo actually argued that the existence of people who like clubbing is evidence of the downfall of civilization in general. When you then start talking about "culture," I assumed you meant it in the sense of general culture, since apparently you're sympathizing with Green's assertion that civilization itself is falling apart.
I believe Green was talking about club culture and the people you generally meet there. I believe he was also pointing out that the people there are usually materialistic (looks & money driven). The only saving grace of clubs is the people who honestly go out there to only dance (the 1% ?). You could say another saving grace is music but too bad almost every club focuses on popular music only.
Newsflash: people anywhere and everywhere are usually materialistic (looks & money driven). This is not a new phenomenon, and it certainly isn't unique to "club culture." Unless you're at a local meditation marathon, a good lecture by some sophisticated professor, or in your own house with people you know very well, pretty much everyone is going to have money+looks (and to some extent power, but whatever) as their main focuses relative to you.
As for your complaint about music, it's just more snobbery. Why would they play music that isn't popular? So that...people won't go and dance there...? I don't get it. They play popular music because it's popular. I don't like popular dance music at all, but to assert that clubs are somehow deplorable because you don't like their music is like saying TV channels that only show soccer are deplorable because you happen to like hockey.
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On July 24 2013 04:50 Shiori wrote:It's just something they go out and do on a Friday night. Why that's so reprehensible is beyond me. Come on. The average 18 to 24 year-old, their entire lives are built around that shit. Even if they do go only once a week, their entire social lives hinge on it. Writing it off as just something they do on a Friday night is disingenuous. When I was at uni, you basically either went to clubs or you were a social outcast.
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On July 24 2013 05:25 Shiori wrote:
Newsflash: people anywhere and everywhere are usually materialistic (looks & money driven). This is not a new phenomenon, and it certainly isn't unique to "club culture." Well, I can only say that you don't know much about history. You might want to study the effect that the 80s had on the materialism of the culture, and you might want to watch some movies and read some books from the 1950s. That the culture has got more shallow and materialistic is an entirely valid point of view, amply supported by all kinds of factual evidence.
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On July 24 2013 05:29 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 05:25 Shiori wrote:
Newsflash: people anywhere and everywhere are usually materialistic (looks & money driven). This is not a new phenomenon, and it certainly isn't unique to "club culture." Well, I can only say that you don't know much about history. You might want to study the effect that the 80s had on the materialism of the culture, and you might want to watch some movies and read some books from the 1950s. That the culture has got more shallow and materialistic is an entirely valid point of view, amply supported by all kinds of factual evidence.
Which books from the 50s?
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On July 24 2013 05:25 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 04:50 Shiori wrote:It's just something they go out and do on a Friday night. Why that's so reprehensible is beyond me. Come on. The average 18 to 24 year-old, their entire lives are built around that shit. Even if they do go only once a week, their entire social lives hinge on it. Writing it off as just something they do on a Friday night is disingenuous. When I was at uni, you basically either went to clubs or you were a social outcast.
I'm not sure what uni you went to, but there are plenty of social activities you can do in this day and age aside from clubbing: go see a band, go on a trip, have a house party, watch a sports game, go to a pub, etc. What do you expect these 18-24 year-olds to do if not hinge their social lives on the weekend, considering it's, you know, the only body of time they have that's free from other obligations like school/work etc.?
It sounds like you're complaining about not having an interest in clubbing while the people around you don't mind going (or even want to go). You're not obligated to go with them, but if you don't share somebody's interests, then it's not so much that you'll be a social outcast as it is that they just want to do different things than you ergo you probably won't be as close to them.
You might want to study the effect that the 80s had on the materialism of the culture, and you might want to watch some movies and read some books from the 1950s. That the culture has got more shallow and materialistic is an entirely valid point of view, amply supported by all kinds of factual evidence.
Anti-miscegenation laws weren't universally struck down in the US until 1967. If anything is shallow, it's regulating the kinds of relationships people are allowed to have based on the colour of their skin. I think some people have a very romanticized perspective on the 1950's in the West. Nevermind the fact that almost every minority group had far fewer rights than they do today. Hell, no-fault divorce didn't even become widespread until the 60's.
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On July 24 2013 05:29 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 05:25 Shiori wrote:
Newsflash: people anywhere and everywhere are usually materialistic (looks & money driven). This is not a new phenomenon, and it certainly isn't unique to "club culture." Well, I can only say that you don't know much about history. You might want to study the effect that the 80s had on the materialism of the culture, and you might want to watch some movies and read some books from the 1950s. That the culture has got more shallow and materialistic is an entirely valid point of view, amply supported by all kinds of factual evidence. Haha, who was it again who practically said the same thing? Seneca i believe, not sure though.
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On July 24 2013 05:30 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 05:25 GreenGringo wrote:On July 24 2013 04:50 Shiori wrote:It's just something they go out and do on a Friday night. Why that's so reprehensible is beyond me. Come on. The average 18 to 24 year-old, their entire lives are built around that shit. Even if they do go only once a week, their entire social lives hinge on it. Writing it off as just something they do on a Friday night is disingenuous. When I was at uni, you basically either went to clubs or you were a social outcast. I'm not sure what uni you went to, but there are plenty of social activities you can do in this day and age aside from clubbing: go see a band, go on a trip, have a house party, watch a sports game, go to a pub, etc. I was fortunate enough in my second and third years to live with people that shared some of my interests. And of course when you're already friends with someone, there's a ton of stuff to do.
In my first year, I wasn't so lucky, and there was simply no common activity in the dorm except clubbing. Everyone I know who wasn't into clubbing reports a similar experience: either they made friends based on common interests, or they became isolated.
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On July 24 2013 05:30 Shiori wrote:
Anti-miscegenation laws weren't universally struck down in the US until 1967. If anything is shallow, it's regulating the kinds of relationships people are allowed to have based on the colour of their skin. I think some people have a very romanticized perspective on the 1950's in the West. Nevermind the fact that almost every minority group had far fewer rights than they do today. Hell, no-fault divorce didn't even become widespread until the 60's. This isn't an appropriate place to play the race card.
Of course it was horrible that racism was so rife, but guess what? Race relations aren't the be all and end all of life. It's entirely possible for cultures to be primitive on race relations and more advanced than us in various other ways.
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On July 24 2013 05:25 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 05:00 willoc wrote:On July 24 2013 04:50 Shiori wrote:It is a shallow culture. It is a manipulative culture. It is a deceptive and illusive culture. However, I know some people may STILL argue that it isn't. One thing we can agree on, I think, is that it is an unhealthy culture (in all regards). You think that modern day culture is unhealthy "in all regards"? Wow, that's weird. If you meant to refer specifically to clubbing, you probably shouldn't have lumped all of culture in there, but whatever. Either way, your point is moronic because there isn't much to compare our "culture" to in any meaningful sense, and because you more or less have no idea what you're talking about. I don't go to clubs. I don't have sex with random strangers. I think it's an utter waste of time and says something about one's character if one does so, but that doesn't really matter. The fact is that most people who go to clubs go to them for fun, not because it's the meaning of their life. It's just something they go out and do on a Friday night. Why that's so reprehensible is beyond me. Obviously people enjoy club atmosphere, obviously some people like having no-strings-attached sex, and obviously some people who do these things are shitty. But to move from that to sweeping statements like culture being "shallow" or "manipulative" or "deceptive and illusive" just makes me want to ask you, oh wise and noble one, what a culture without those traits would actually look like, and if it has ever existed anywhere in the course of human history. Of course it was about club culture. It wouldn't make sense otherwise. I don't understand what you think I was talking about otherwise, The definition of culture in general? I don't get it. Probably because GreenGringo actually argued that the existence of people who like clubbing is evidence of the downfall of civilization in general. When you then start talking about "culture," I assumed you meant it in the sense of general culture, since apparently you're sympathizing with Green's assertion that civilization itself is falling apart. Show nested quote +I believe Green was talking about club culture and the people you generally meet there. I believe he was also pointing out that the people there are usually materialistic (looks & money driven). The only saving grace of clubs is the people who honestly go out there to only dance (the 1% ?). You could say another saving grace is music but too bad almost every club focuses on popular music only. Newsflash: people anywhere and everywhere are usually materialistic (looks & money driven). This is not a new phenomenon, and it certainly isn't unique to "club culture." Unless you're at a local meditation marathon, a good lecture by some sophisticated professor, or in your own house with people you know very well, pretty much everyone is going to have money+looks (and to some extent power, but whatever) as their main focuses relative to you. As for your complaint about music, it's just more snobbery. Why would they play music that isn't popular? So that...people won't go and dance there...? I don't get it. They play popular music because it's popular. I don't like popular dance music at all, but to assert that clubs are somehow deplorable because you don't like their music is like saying TV channels that only show soccer are deplorable because you happen to like hockey.
People being generally more materialistic is not unique to club culture but is prevalent there relative to other places. If you were saying that all places on earth will have the same average materialism then I have to say you are wrong. People in clubs will generally be more materialistic than most other places you go. Many people in this world value other things in life such as family. Of course, you need money and looks are beneficial but they are not the only values in life (and even less so in non-westernized cultures). I would also like to say they are the wrong driving value in life but that is just my own opinion.
As far as your music and snobbery comment. I was arguing about if from the perspective of music as art. Of course the club-owners will put on the music that most of the people that go there will want.
Anyway, after reading most of the comments I came to realise that people may have really different ideas of what we are all talking about.
Are we talking about "clubs" that are basically pick-up joints were the only music you will hear is the same as what is on MTV? Are we talking about rave-like bars that mainly adhere to DJs that create original content via mixes and other means?
When I read the OP, I thought they meant the former. The pick-up joints where everyone is dressed in whatever tarded trend is the coolest these days. The place where a self-respecting woman has to keep her drink in her hand to avoid being roofied. The place where the girl's bathroom is synonymous to a cocaine mirror. The place where you see the same 40+ year old man trying to pick up girls just out of highschool every single week.
Please disregard my comments above if you are defending some place that doesn't fit the above description. That is what my definition of "club" is and I'm probably wrong from a technical perspective (there might not be a term for it). Cheers.
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Fuck clubbing, festivals and raves is where it's at  ! No, they aren't the same thing.
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On July 24 2013 05:46 sM.Zik wrote:Fuck clubbing, festivals and raves is where it's at ! No, they aren't the same thing.
It's worth clarifying though
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On July 24 2013 05:43 willoc wrote:
People being generally more materialistic is not unique to club culture but is prevalent there relative to other places. If you were saying that all places on earth will have the same average materialism then I have to say you are wrong. Yes, it's complete baloney. The 1970s wasn't as materialistic as the 1980s. It's a fact.
Of course, they had clubbing in the 70s. I have to wonder whether that would be more down my street. Judging by stories of my parents, clubbing in the 70s seemed to be entirely about getting smashed and relieving your baser instincts...and no lame excuses about it being about "socializing" and "meeting people" and whatnot. These days it seems to be more akin to competition in trendiness (and even a competition in wealth in many cases).
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EPT
