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On July 16 2013 05:01 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 04:38 killa_robot wrote:
Not to detract from the obvious bravery it took for him to stand up to the government and reveal their secrets, but that's basically treason and betraying the trust they gave him.
How would you feel if you told your friend your biggest secret, and he went out and told everyone else?
I'm sure most people would feel it was "right" to reveal this, but on principle he should still be punished. If i had stolen something or murdered someone or if i did something else that's pretty bad i'd say he did the right thing. If you have to break the law to reveal much bigger shit there's no reason he needs to be punished. In the end governments are there to protect the citizens, not to spy on on them.
And if you truly believe that the act you committed was just then you stick around and tell the people your reasons for doing so and have your day in court. Not run away to an obvious rival (and an even much worse violator of said injustices) of a country you purportedly love in hopes of selling the information for big bucks.
And of course let's remember that currently, whether right or wrong, it is legal for the US governement to spy on its citizens. If Snowden truly didn't like it he should have tried to get the Patriot act revoked, not steal sensitive US information that other countries can greatly benefit from.
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Ordinarily, I'd say definitely not. Is what he did good? Yes. Did it take a lot of courage and effort? Yes. But I don't think it qualifies for the Nobel Peace Prize.
But then again, given questionable winners recently, the criteria seem to have gone out the window. So whatever.
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On July 16 2013 05:11 FryBender wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 05:01 Nyxisto wrote:On July 16 2013 04:38 killa_robot wrote:
Not to detract from the obvious bravery it took for him to stand up to the government and reveal their secrets, but that's basically treason and betraying the trust they gave him.
How would you feel if you told your friend your biggest secret, and he went out and told everyone else?
I'm sure most people would feel it was "right" to reveal this, but on principle he should still be punished. If i had stolen something or murdered someone or if i did something else that's pretty bad i'd say he did the right thing. If you have to break the law to reveal much bigger shit there's no reason he needs to be punished. In the end governments are there to protect the citizens, not to spy on on them. And if you truly believe that the act you committed was just then you stick around and tell the people your reasons for doing so and have your day in court. Not run away to an obvious rival (and an even much worse violator of said injustices) of a country you purportedly love in hopes of selling the information for big bucks. And of course let's remember that currently, whether right or wrong, it is legal for the US governement to spy on its citizens. If Snowden truly didn't like it he should have tried to get the Patriot act revoked, not steal sensitive US information that other countries can greatly benefit from.
and people in nazi germany should have tried to change the laws that allowed hitler to be a dictator, right?
obviously there's about a 0% chance of him changing the patriot act.
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Considering everyone who got it in the last few years, he's far better choice than quite a few :D
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On July 16 2013 05:14 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 05:11 FryBender wrote:On July 16 2013 05:01 Nyxisto wrote:On July 16 2013 04:38 killa_robot wrote:
Not to detract from the obvious bravery it took for him to stand up to the government and reveal their secrets, but that's basically treason and betraying the trust they gave him.
How would you feel if you told your friend your biggest secret, and he went out and told everyone else?
I'm sure most people would feel it was "right" to reveal this, but on principle he should still be punished. If i had stolen something or murdered someone or if i did something else that's pretty bad i'd say he did the right thing. If you have to break the law to reveal much bigger shit there's no reason he needs to be punished. In the end governments are there to protect the citizens, not to spy on on them. And if you truly believe that the act you committed was just then you stick around and tell the people your reasons for doing so and have your day in court. Not run away to an obvious rival (and an even much worse violator of said injustices) of a country you purportedly love in hopes of selling the information for big bucks. And of course let's remember that currently, whether right or wrong, it is legal for the US governement to spy on its citizens. If Snowden truly didn't like it he should have tried to get the Patriot act revoked, not steal sensitive US information that other countries can greatly benefit from. and people in nazi germany should have tried to change the laws that allowed hitler to be a dictator, right? obviously there's about a 0% chance of him changing the patriot act.
Yep the US and Nazi Germany are exactly the same government regimes.
The patriot act is unconstitutional and all one needs to do is bring evidence of the unconstitutionality of it to court. He had this information and could have worked with it confidentially in closed court sessions to start a case. Much more effective and he get to stay in the US without having to get assylum in Russia, Venezuela, or Bolivia, places where the human rights abuses by the governement are magnitudes of order worse then the US. Him running away to China (and yes HK is now China no matter what anyone says) of all the places kind of tipped his hand as to what his actual plans were.
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On July 16 2013 05:21 FryBender wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 05:14 beg wrote:On July 16 2013 05:11 FryBender wrote:On July 16 2013 05:01 Nyxisto wrote:On July 16 2013 04:38 killa_robot wrote:
Not to detract from the obvious bravery it took for him to stand up to the government and reveal their secrets, but that's basically treason and betraying the trust they gave him.
How would you feel if you told your friend your biggest secret, and he went out and told everyone else?
I'm sure most people would feel it was "right" to reveal this, but on principle he should still be punished. If i had stolen something or murdered someone or if i did something else that's pretty bad i'd say he did the right thing. If you have to break the law to reveal much bigger shit there's no reason he needs to be punished. In the end governments are there to protect the citizens, not to spy on on them. And if you truly believe that the act you committed was just then you stick around and tell the people your reasons for doing so and have your day in court. Not run away to an obvious rival (and an even much worse violator of said injustices) of a country you purportedly love in hopes of selling the information for big bucks. And of course let's remember that currently, whether right or wrong, it is legal for the US governement to spy on its citizens. If Snowden truly didn't like it he should have tried to get the Patriot act revoked, not steal sensitive US information that other countries can greatly benefit from. and people in nazi germany should have tried to change the laws that allowed hitler to be a dictator, right? obviously there's about a 0% chance of him changing the patriot act. Yep the US and Nazi Germany are exactly the same government regimes. The patriot act is unconstitutional and all one needs to do is bring evidence of the unconstitutionality of it to court. He had this information and could have worked with it confidentially in closed court sessions to start a case. Much more effective and he get to stay in the US without having to get assylum in Russia, Venezuela, or Bolivia, places where the human rights abuses by the governement are magnitudes of order worse then the US. Him running away to China (and yes HK is now China no matter what anyone says) of all the places kind of tipped his hand as to what his actual plans were. If you read about the 3 other whistleblowers from NSA the last decade, you will see why he may have had far worse problems, had he stayed in USA. That is no excuse for visiting China and Russia, though. If he wanted a chance, he should have moved to southern america. The current situation is a mess.
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He would deserve the Nobel Peace Prize if he lives in the airport for 10 years.
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Does it REALLY matter, though? Obama won it and that didn't really matter much, did it? I think it's just something that passerbys can site but there isn't much real merit to winning one?
The only thing i can think of is that other people who see it being awarded might want to support him more or something *shrug*
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Seems like nowadays anyone can get a Nobel peace prize -_- it used to be so much more prestigious. So based on current society I would say he probably would deserve to get one.
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The Noble peace prize given to "those who have 'done the most or the best work for fraternity between nations, for the abolition or reduction of standing armies and for the holding and promotion of peace congresses.'"
If anything, what Snowden is doing is the complete opposite.
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On July 16 2013 09:32 papapanda wrote:
The Noble peace prize given to "those who have 'done the most or the best work for fraternity between nations, for the abolition or reduction of standing armies and for the holding and promotion of peace congresses.'"
If anything, what Snowden is doing is the complete opposite.
How do you figure? Are you blaming HIM for the U.S. government spying on everybody???
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I'm still mad at them giving a peace prize to Gore over Irena Sendler. Give it to Snowden, or hell even Holder.
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United States7483 Posts
On July 16 2013 04:05 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 03:59 spinesheath wrote:On July 16 2013 03:46 Plansix wrote:On July 16 2013 03:39 AnomalySC2 wrote:On July 16 2013 03:32 Plansix wrote:On July 16 2013 03:31 AnomalySC2 wrote:On July 16 2013 03:23 Plansix wrote:On July 16 2013 03:16 packrat386 wrote:On July 16 2013 03:13 Belha wrote:On July 15 2013 23:17 yOngKIN wrote:
[quote]
He'd have disappeared from the face of the Earth had he stayed in the US one second longer that he did. Touche. Not really. We tend to try even state criminals here. When was the last time a US defector "disappeared from the face of the Earth"? We have openly put spies on trial before, including the two russian spies who stole the atomic bomb plans. There is no reason to believe that we wouldn't have put Snowden on trial. Do you consider Snowden a spy? And if so, a spy for whom exactly. That is not the point. The point is we have put real spies on open trial, so there is no reason why Snowden wouldn't be give a public trial as well. But do you consider him a spy? I'm just asking what it is you think he would be tried for if they got a hold of him. No, I do not think he is a spy, as he does not work for another country. And you are misreading my statement. I am pointing out that people who steal secrets for other countries still get trials in open court. They don't disappear. There is no reason to believe that they wouldn't do the same for Snowden and he would face trial for whatever crimes they would charge him with. Spies for other countries get public trials because that way you can call that other country out. Someone who doesn't work for another country or relevant other party doesn't have this advantage; such affairs would be treated as silently as possible. Except we currently have Manning on trial, who leaked documents in much the same way. There is no reason to believe that Snowden would not be tried in open court.
Actually, there's no chance in hell he wouldn't get a trial, can you imagine the riots and protests if they didn't give him one?
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So can I say this, why can he only state that the NSA and United States agencies are the only ones doing cyber spying?
Doesnt every country do it to an aspect or length?
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On July 16 2013 10:45 kmillz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 09:32 papapanda wrote:
The Noble peace prize given to "those who have 'done the most or the best work for fraternity between nations, for the abolition or reduction of standing armies and for the holding and promotion of peace congresses.'"
If anything, what Snowden is doing is the complete opposite. How do you figure? Are you blaming HIM for the U.S. government spying on everybody???
No but officially exposing the shit does increase the tensions more than it reduces them. Exposing a government's authoritarian practices doesn't create peace, it creates unrest. At least over the short term.
But in a few months people will have stopped caring, and the government will continue to remove our rights and liberties. And when the drains finally scab over, all the vermin will drown.
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no way. if they gave snowden a nobel peace prize people might start thinking he's done something wrong.
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He deserves it a whole flipping lot more than Begin, Arafat, Obama, or the godsdamned EU.
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The Nobel peace prize should be put on timeout for a decade after the multiple debacles of the recent past.
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On July 15 2013 23:34 -Archangel- wrote:
Nobel prize lost all value after giving one to Obama so nobody cares who gets it anymore. But if my vote counted for anything I say Yes.
I agree. I used to think that the nobel peace prize was the greatest honor in the world :/
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I love how he's in trouble for telling us that the government was violating the 9th Amendment but nothing's happening to the government who did it
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EPT
