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On July 16 2013 03:39 AnomalySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 03:32 Plansix wrote:On July 16 2013 03:31 AnomalySC2 wrote:On July 16 2013 03:23 Plansix wrote:On July 16 2013 03:16 packrat386 wrote:On July 16 2013 03:13 Belha wrote:On July 15 2013 23:17 yOngKIN wrote:On July 15 2013 23:15 Whitewing wrote:
If he'd stuck it out at home as an act of civil disobedience so he could actually have his day in court I'd say yes. He'd have disappeared from the face of the Earth had he stayed in the US one second longer that he did. Touche. Not really. We tend to try even state criminals here. When was the last time a US defector "disappeared from the face of the Earth"? We have openly put spies on trial before, including the two russian spies who stole the atomic bomb plans. There is no reason to believe that we wouldn't have put Snowden on trial. Do you consider Snowden a spy? And if so, a spy for whom exactly. That is not the point. The point is we have put real spies on open trial, so there is no reason why Snowden wouldn't be give a public trial as well. But do you consider him a spy? I'm just asking what it is you think he would be tried for if they got a hold of him.
No, I do not think he is a spy, as he does not work for another country. And you are misreading my statement. I am pointing out that people who steal secrets for other countries still get trials in open court. They don't disappear. There is no reason to believe that they wouldn't do the same for Snowden and he would face trial for whatever crimes they would charge him with.
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On July 16 2013 03:39 AnomalySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 03:32 Plansix wrote:On July 16 2013 03:31 AnomalySC2 wrote:On July 16 2013 03:23 Plansix wrote:On July 16 2013 03:16 packrat386 wrote:On July 16 2013 03:13 Belha wrote:On July 15 2013 23:17 yOngKIN wrote:On July 15 2013 23:15 Whitewing wrote:
If he'd stuck it out at home as an act of civil disobedience so he could actually have his day in court I'd say yes. He'd have disappeared from the face of the Earth had he stayed in the US one second longer that he did. Touche. Not really. We tend to try even state criminals here. When was the last time a US defector "disappeared from the face of the Earth"? We have openly put spies on trial before, including the two russian spies who stole the atomic bomb plans. There is no reason to believe that we wouldn't have put Snowden on trial. Do you consider Snowden a spy? And if so, a spy for whom exactly. That is not the point. The point is we have put real spies on open trial, so there is no reason why Snowden wouldn't be give a public trial as well. But do you consider him a spy? I'm just asking what it is you think he would be tried for if they got a hold of him.
while I wouldn't consider him a spy per se, they would almost certainly try him under the Espionage Act.
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What frightens me most: the ability to speak about US government VS the people's opinion. Democracy...
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On July 16 2013 03:57 peacenl wrote:
What frightens me most: the ability to speak about US government VS the people's opinion. Democracy...
that sentence makes no sense...
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On July 16 2013 03:46 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 03:39 AnomalySC2 wrote:On July 16 2013 03:32 Plansix wrote:On July 16 2013 03:31 AnomalySC2 wrote:On July 16 2013 03:23 Plansix wrote:On July 16 2013 03:16 packrat386 wrote:On July 16 2013 03:13 Belha wrote:On July 15 2013 23:17 yOngKIN wrote:On July 15 2013 23:15 Whitewing wrote:
If he'd stuck it out at home as an act of civil disobedience so he could actually have his day in court I'd say yes. He'd have disappeared from the face of the Earth had he stayed in the US one second longer that he did. Touche. Not really. We tend to try even state criminals here. When was the last time a US defector "disappeared from the face of the Earth"? We have openly put spies on trial before, including the two russian spies who stole the atomic bomb plans. There is no reason to believe that we wouldn't have put Snowden on trial. Do you consider Snowden a spy? And if so, a spy for whom exactly. That is not the point. The point is we have put real spies on open trial, so there is no reason why Snowden wouldn't be give a public trial as well. But do you consider him a spy? I'm just asking what it is you think he would be tried for if they got a hold of him. No, I do not think he is a spy, as he does not work for another country. And you are misreading my statement. I am pointing out that people who steal secrets for other countries still get trials in open court. They don't disappear. There is no reason to believe that they wouldn't do the same for Snowden and he would face trial for whatever crimes they would charge him with.
Spies for other countries get public trials because that way you can call that other country out. Someone who doesn't work for another country or relevant other party doesn't have this advantage; such affairs would be treated as silently as possible.
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Snowden hasn't done anything to promote peace, so I don't see why he's even considered.
He sure did a brave thing, and if there was a "citizens awerness" prize then he should get it.
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To give this man the nobel peace prize would further detract from its actual meaning.
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On July 16 2013 03:59 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 03:46 Plansix wrote:On July 16 2013 03:39 AnomalySC2 wrote:On July 16 2013 03:32 Plansix wrote:On July 16 2013 03:31 AnomalySC2 wrote:On July 16 2013 03:23 Plansix wrote:On July 16 2013 03:16 packrat386 wrote:On July 16 2013 03:13 Belha wrote:On July 15 2013 23:17 yOngKIN wrote:On July 15 2013 23:15 Whitewing wrote:
If he'd stuck it out at home as an act of civil disobedience so he could actually have his day in court I'd say yes. He'd have disappeared from the face of the Earth had he stayed in the US one second longer that he did. Touche. Not really. We tend to try even state criminals here. When was the last time a US defector "disappeared from the face of the Earth"? We have openly put spies on trial before, including the two russian spies who stole the atomic bomb plans. There is no reason to believe that we wouldn't have put Snowden on trial. Do you consider Snowden a spy? And if so, a spy for whom exactly. That is not the point. The point is we have put real spies on open trial, so there is no reason why Snowden wouldn't be give a public trial as well. But do you consider him a spy? I'm just asking what it is you think he would be tried for if they got a hold of him. No, I do not think he is a spy, as he does not work for another country. And you are misreading my statement. I am pointing out that people who steal secrets for other countries still get trials in open court. They don't disappear. There is no reason to believe that they wouldn't do the same for Snowden and he would face trial for whatever crimes they would charge him with. Spies for other countries get public trials because that way you can call that other country out. Someone who doesn't work for another country or relevant other party doesn't have this advantage; such affairs would be treated as silently as possible.
Except we currently have Manning on trial, who leaked documents in much the same way. There is no reason to believe that Snowden would not be tried in open court.
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Does the man deserve a prize? Absolutely!
The Nobel Peace prize? Absolutely not!
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I just had this image in my head of Bob Barker on the set of "The Price is Right" yelling "Edward Snowden, COME ON DOWN!!" and Snowden is all excited and goes up to the podium and bids on the Nobel Prize for like $5,000 and then Obama bids $5,001 and gets it
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I'm also confused as to how the nobel peace prize applies here. The government isn't really at war with its own citizens, all its doing is collecting information - apparently based mostly on its own judgement of what is appropriate to collect.
You would have to argue that he's preventing a future tyranny from occurring, and that that threat is more significant than the immediate threat from terrorist groups. But it just seems like too much of a stretch. If those were the standards you could apply, then virtually everyone could be nominated for a nobel peace prize. Climate scientists should be nominated, because through their awareness raising they are helping humanity react to climate change before it gets to a point where resources (wheat, fresh water) will run low, leading to war.
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Not to detract from the obvious bravery it took for him to stand up to the government and reveal their secrets, but that's basically treason and betraying the trust they gave him.
How would you feel if you told your friend your biggest secret, and he went out and told everyone else?
I'm sure most people would feel it was "right" to reveal this, but on principle he should still be punished.
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On July 16 2013 04:38 killa_robot wrote:
Not to detract from the obvious bravery it took for him to stand up to the government and reveal their secrets, but that's basically treason and betraying the trust they gave him.
How would you feel if you told your friend your biggest secret, and he went out and told everyone else?
I'm sure most people would feel it was "right" to reveal this, but on principle he should still be punished.
That's backwards, since the government should be transparent, not individuals. It's more like how would you feel if you hid a camera in the girls' bathroom and your friend ratted you out?
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On July 16 2013 04:44 ddrddrddrddr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 04:38 killa_robot wrote:
Not to detract from the obvious bravery it took for him to stand up to the government and reveal their secrets, but that's basically treason and betraying the trust they gave him.
How would you feel if you told your friend your biggest secret, and he went out and told everyone else?
I'm sure most people would feel it was "right" to reveal this, but on principle he should still be punished. That's backwards, since the government should be transparent, not individuals. It's more like how would you feel if you hid a camera in the girls' bathroom and your friend ratted you out?
Then I'd hate and want to beat that friend, lol.
Still missing the principle though. The point is they trusted him with the info, and he betrayed their trust.
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On July 16 2013 04:55 killa_robot wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 04:44 ddrddrddrddr wrote:On July 16 2013 04:38 killa_robot wrote:
Not to detract from the obvious bravery it took for him to stand up to the government and reveal their secrets, but that's basically treason and betraying the trust they gave him.
How would you feel if you told your friend your biggest secret, and he went out and told everyone else?
I'm sure most people would feel it was "right" to reveal this, but on principle he should still be punished. That's backwards, since the government should be transparent, not individuals. It's more like how would you feel if you hid a camera in the girls' bathroom and your friend ratted you out? Then I'd hate and want to beat that friend, lol. Still missing the principle though. The point is they trusted him with the info, and he betrayed their trust.
Yeah, it's the difference between a rat and an informant. The single act is totally different from different views. In the end I think it's something along the line of the victors write history.
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On July 16 2013 04:38 killa_robot wrote:
Not to detract from the obvious bravery it took for him to stand up to the government and reveal their secrets, but that's basically treason and betraying the trust they gave him.
How would you feel if you told your friend your biggest secret, and he went out and told everyone else?
I'm sure most people would feel it was "right" to reveal this, but on principle he should still be punished.
If i had stolen something or murdered someone or if i did something else that's pretty bad i'd say he did the right thing. If you have to break the law to reveal much bigger shit there's no reason he needs to be punished. In the end governments are there to protect the citizens, not to spy on on them.
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worthy of winning the prestigious Nobel Peace Prize?
Prestigious?
After even Obama was granted it last year, it'd be insulting to Snowden to consider him.
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On July 15 2013 23:22 jello_biafra wrote:
If Obama was awarded it I don't see any reason why Snowden shouldn't get it too, I doubt he would be able to attend the ceremony but it would be funny to see Obama's reaction.
I think I should get one too. I haven't killed any children with drone strikes so I'm already way ahead of Obama when it comes to peace 
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Nobel Peace Prize is a complete joke. Too many questionable winners, just last years Al Gore, Obama, the EU..
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He destroyed his life for this info. For sure.
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EPT
