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On July 12 2013 02:47 czylu wrote:
w/ regards to solitary confinement. I don't think solitary is a bad idea as a punitive measure, but the way the US deals w/ solitary is absolutely ridiculous and torture. Due to the overcrowded prison system, solitary is now used to vacate cell rooms temporarily for new prisoners awaiting trial. It's a random system designed to increase the number of actual jail cells in a prison, and is not being used the way it was originally intended.
And don't forget suicide watch. What sense does it make to put someone already mentally afflicted and place them in an environment likely to exacerbate the problem?
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On July 12 2013 02:02 Dubhghall wrote:
Their human rights aren't being violated here, they are given food, water, and shelter. They just want better conditions that they have been given to them. They have broken the rules of society and are paying the price. If they don't want to eat then that is their choice, they offered them the food and they refused it. Overcrowding is a problem in CA prisons, however that doesn't mean that they deserve better conditions for being criminals.
God damn how ignorant can one post be?
We don't allow for the torture of war criminals or PoW's. How the fuck is it acceptable to violate this basic human rights with civilians?
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On July 12 2013 03:04 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 02:02 Dubhghall wrote:
Their human rights aren't being violated here, they are given food, water, and shelter. They just want better conditions that they have been given to them. They have broken the rules of society and are paying the price. If they don't want to eat then that is their choice, they offered them the food and they refused it. Overcrowding is a problem in CA prisons, however that doesn't mean that they deserve better conditions for being criminals. God damn how ignorant can one post be? We don't allow for the torture of war criminals or PoW's. How the fuck is it acceptable to violate this basic human rights with civilians?
Yeah, people like to skip that argument that we wouldn't treat POWs that way, but for some reason its ok if it our own people, so long as they are a drug deal.
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On July 12 2013 03:07 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 03:04 Stratos_speAr wrote:On July 12 2013 02:02 Dubhghall wrote:
Their human rights aren't being violated here, they are given food, water, and shelter. They just want better conditions that they have been given to them. They have broken the rules of society and are paying the price. If they don't want to eat then that is their choice, they offered them the food and they refused it. Overcrowding is a problem in CA prisons, however that doesn't mean that they deserve better conditions for being criminals. God damn how ignorant can one post be? We don't allow for the torture of war criminals or PoW's. How the fuck is it acceptable to violate this basic human rights with civilians? Yeah, people like to skip that argument that we wouldn't treat POWs that way, but for some reason its ok if it our own people, so long as they are a drug deal.
And remember that you can be a drug dealer even if there is no evidence you deal drugs!
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On July 12 2013 03:11 Jormundr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 03:07 Plansix wrote:On July 12 2013 03:04 Stratos_speAr wrote:On July 12 2013 02:02 Dubhghall wrote:
Their human rights aren't being violated here, they are given food, water, and shelter. They just want better conditions that they have been given to them. They have broken the rules of society and are paying the price. If they don't want to eat then that is their choice, they offered them the food and they refused it. Overcrowding is a problem in CA prisons, however that doesn't mean that they deserve better conditions for being criminals. God damn how ignorant can one post be? We don't allow for the torture of war criminals or PoW's. How the fuck is it acceptable to violate this basic human rights with civilians? Yeah, people like to skip that argument that we wouldn't treat POWs that way, but for some reason its ok if it our own people, so long as they are a drug deal. And remember that you can be a drug dealer even if there is no evidence you deal drugs!
Lol, damn auto correct. It should have known I wanted Drug Dealer.
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im amazed how many people are in prison in the state of californa, given the population of 32 million it's a lot actually, even if those 30k striking were the only ones you had.
How many prisoners are there in total in the state of california?
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On July 12 2013 02:33 Dekoth wrote:
Who cares..they are in Prison. Solitary is far from torture. I am sick and tired of hearing of "Prisoners" rights. They forfeited their rights when they chose to break the law and violate someone else's rights. This country is too damn soft and it is why our prison population is exploding. Prison should be the most miserable place on earth that people should want to go out of their way to avoid being sent there. Our prisoners want to bitch about how bad they have it? Let them spend some time in a turkish or russian prison. They will be Begging to be allowed to come back to our comfortable prisons with AC, Cable TV, Free College Education, Gyms and three quality meals a day.
from my point of view there's basicly 2 options here, which is cutting it short really badly but you'll see my point:
- People who do stuff that isn't that bad: Make it whatever you want. Not paying taxes, drugs, something not violent in general. Those kind of people, imo, don't deserve to live in hell, not even for a short amount of time and you should especially focus on resocializing those people because it's highly likely that it's easy to do. And yes they usually don't end up living in hell because like everyone mentioned, those are the people who don't end up behaving badly in prison.
- People who do stuff that's really bad: Now this is probably the more interesting group because they're being violent and a danger to society. However, the point is that behavior that brings them into this group isn't rational to begin with. It may be caused by panic, it may be caused by mental illness it may be cause by whatever but it is most certainly not a rational consideration before the act happens. Do you really think a scared teenager with a gun thinks about the consequences of his actions when shit's going down RIGHT THIS moment? Replace the scared teenager with anyone, let it be a guy in a gang, because I think most people are scared when they're lifes are in danger, no matter why. Do you really think a crack addict thinks about anything other than his next fix? Seems unlikely to me.
The reason I'm making these 2 groups is:
Group 1 might act in a rational way. A guy not paying his taxes most certainly did think about his actions beforehand and came to a conclusion about wether he should do it or not. To those people however the frightening factor doesn't apply to begin with (or shouldn't), so it's a moot point.
Group 2 consists of people who usually act in panic, in a hurry or in some other way that involves them not thinking about what they're doing while doing it. So you're point is moot again. They might be the target of those more cruel measurements that are supposed to frighten people and therefore prevent stuff from happening but it doesn't work if the targeted set of people isn't rationally thinking in the first place.
So either way you look at it. Your suggestion really does three things (imo):
1) perform revenge
2) increase the chances of people to behave in a violent way in the future, endagering pretty much everyone
3) increase the cost for prisons because people who are more likely to misbehave in the future are more likely to end up in prison again and again and again.
Now is revenge really worth that?
TL;dr: You work under the assumption that people who murder, rape and whatever else are rationally thinking about their actions beforehand and carefully weigh both sides, so we should give them a reason that will make them less likely to do bad things, namely, fear of prisons. That kind of reasoning is flawed because your innitial assumption that they're thinking rationally is (usually) wrong while giving all kinds of negative setbacks for pretty much everyone.
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On July 12 2013 03:16 Cele wrote:
im amazed how many people are in prison in the state of californa, given the population of 32 million it's a lot actually, even if those 30k striking were the only ones you had.
How many prisoners are there in total in the state of california?
140,000 or so. Its a huge number and they used to have 6% of their population in prisions.
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So to be clear, California inprisions more people than the entire country of Germany, that has sever times the population. Because California is dumb and bad at jail.
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On July 12 2013 03:28 Plansix wrote:So to be clear, California inprisions more people than the entire country of Germany, that has sever times the population. Because California is dumb and bad at jail.
Not California.
We as a country have ~5% of the world population. We have 23% of the world's prison population.
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On July 12 2013 03:28 Plansix wrote:So to be clear, California inprisions more people than the entire country of Germany, that has sever times the population. Because California is dumb and bad at jail.
In principle Europe is safe form gun and gang violence given the fact that most western europeans have a high standard of living and police deal with violent crimes very dearly.For example even in Romania which is no way as developed as Germany you can serve 6 months for throwing a punch at someone.Also the police cracks down on criminal gangs very swiftly.there are roughly gangs in ROmania larger than 30 individuals.Only place in Europe I heard is more dangerous is southern Itlay with the Camora/COsa Nostra etc.California is ok just the fact that criminals in the USA are a bit smarter and have more freedoms than those in the EU.Also the eu police form different states collaborate very well with one another.
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On July 12 2013 03:28 Plansix wrote:So to be clear, California inprisions more people than the entire country of Germany, that has sever times the population. Because California is dumb and bad at jail.
But they deserve it because they are evil and it is Justified to torture all of them...
It's the christian thing to do. In god we trust.
Seriously this is the issue with our prisons. Solitary is justified as a last resort for the worst worst prisoner, and I don't think anyone will disagree with that. But the way it's being handled here in my home state is just disgusting. I almost got thrown in jail once, because I had a ticket that was unpaid that I didn't even know I had. (yes jail isn't prison, and prison isn't solitary.. relax)
It's only going to get worse as our education is plumeting in certain area's. Our drop out rate is growing in lower income area's and statisticly speaking 95% of black men who drop out get incarcerated.
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On July 12 2013 03:37 theking1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 03:28 Plansix wrote:So to be clear, California inprisions more people than the entire country of Germany, that has sever times the population. Because California is dumb and bad at jail. In principle Europe is safe form gun and gang violence given the fact that most western europeans have a high standard of living and police deal with violent crimes very dearly.For example even in Romania which is no way as developed as Germany you can serve 6 months for throwing a punch at someone.Also the police cracks down on criminal gangs very swiftly.there are roughly gangs in ROmania larger than 30 individuals.Only place in Europe I heard is more dangerous is southern Itlay with the Camora/COsa Nostra etc.California is ok just the fact that criminals in the USA are a bit smarter and have more freedoms than those in the EU.Also the eu police form different states collaborate very well with one another.
That doesnt' change the fact that the US is bad at jail. We have 23% of the worlds prision population. We are just flat out bad at it, which is why we have these problems.
Also, our people are not more violent that other areas of the world, we just jail people for crimes that are likely not worthy of jail time.
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1) Not torture.
2) length of term has nothing to do with the penalty. Going to prison in most instances in America is a Far cry from most other countries. Perhaps you should actually look at the prison conditions overseas before decrying our resorts as terrible.
3) Apparently Texas is the only one doing it right.
Once again, number of inmates has Zero to do with prison conditions. Conditions over here are a far cry better. If anything the fact that we imprison far more people then Russia should tell you just how much of a "Threat" our prisons aren't.
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On July 12 2013 03:44 Dekoth wrote:1) Not torture. 2) length of term has nothing to do with the penalty. Going to prison in most instances in America is a Far cry from most other countries. Perhaps you should actually look at the prison conditions overseas before decrying our resorts as terrible. 3) Apparently Texas is the only one doing it right. Once again, number of inmates has Zero to do with prison conditions. Conditions over here are a far cry better. If anything the fact that we imprison far more people then Russia should tell you just how much of a "Threat" our prisons aren't.
Um....the Supreme Court of the United States disagrees with you. They ordered that the conditions were inhumain due to the number of inmates.
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On July 12 2013 03:44 Dekoth wrote:1) Not torture. 2) length of term has nothing to do with the penalty. Going to prison in most instances in America is a Far cry from most other countries. Perhaps you should actually look at the prison conditions overseas before decrying our resorts as terrible. 3) Apparently Texas is the only one doing it right. Once again, number of inmates has Zero to do with prison conditions. Conditions over here are a far cry better. If anything the fact that we imprison far more people then Russia should tell you just how much of a "Threat" our prisons aren't.
You are, quite frankly, clueless. Want to know the difference between the US and countries with much, much lower rates of re-offending criminals? Nicer prisons and better systems for rehabilitation.
The severity of penalty is not a deterrent in the slightest.
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On July 12 2013 03:44 Dekoth wrote:1) Not torture. 2) length of term has nothing to do with the penalty. Going to prison in most instances in America is a Far cry from most other countries. Perhaps you should actually look at the prison conditions overseas before decrying our resorts as terrible. 3) Apparently Texas is the only one doing it right. Once again, number of inmates has Zero to do with prison conditions. Conditions over here are a far cry better. If anything the fact that we imprison far more people then Russia should tell you just how much of a "Threat" our prisons aren't.
1. You're smart. What is generally considered inhumane even for animals is quite all right for human beings? Thanks for the info!
2. Show me a comparable country where they imprison as many people and treat them worse than us.
Far cry better than where? China? Russia? North Korea?
"Guys it's ok, we're not quite the shittiest legal/prison system in the world."
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On July 12 2013 03:42 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 03:37 theking1 wrote:On July 12 2013 03:28 Plansix wrote:So to be clear, California inprisions more people than the entire country of Germany, that has sever times the population. Because California is dumb and bad at jail. In principle Europe is safe form gun and gang violence given the fact that most western europeans have a high standard of living and police deal with violent crimes very dearly.For example even in Romania which is no way as developed as Germany you can serve 6 months for throwing a punch at someone.Also the police cracks down on criminal gangs very swiftly.there are roughly gangs in ROmania larger than 30 individuals.Only place in Europe I heard is more dangerous is southern Itlay with the Camora/COsa Nostra etc.California is ok just the fact that criminals in the USA are a bit smarter and have more freedoms than those in the EU.Also the eu police form different states collaborate very well with one another. That doesnt' change the fact that the US is bad at jail. We have 23% of the worlds prision population. We are just flat out bad at it, which is why we have these problems. Also, our people are not more violent that other areas of the world, we just jail people for crimes that are likely not worthy of jail time.
Having a large jail population doesnt mean being bad at jail it means the justice system aka judges send a lot of people to jail.Also I did not say americans are more violent that Europeans but that in USA gangs such as MS13,Arian Brotherhood,Bloods, Crips, commit more violent crimes than their European equivalents.USA suffers also from a very large territory and understaffed police which means criminals in certian areas can roam free.In Europe due to the small size of european countries police can prevent crime a lot faster than in the US and also through other legal means.For example in the EU if you assemble about 40 individuals and start comiting crime be sure the police will harrass you and put you under preventive arrest even if they do not have any hard evidence but there is some evidence that you are commiting crime.
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EPT
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