|
In order to ensure that this thread meets TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we ask that everyone please adhere to this mod note. Posts containing only Tweets or articles adds nothing to the discussions. Therefore, when providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments will be actioned upon. All in all, please continue to enjoy posting in TL General and partake in discussions as much as you want! But please be respectful when posting or replying to someone. There is a clear difference between constructive criticism/discussion and just plain being rude and insulting. https://www.registertovote.service.gov.uk |
On April 10 2019 09:54 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Why not allow the UK to return to what the people approved in the 1975 referendum.Common market, with sovereign control of borders and laws.
Because the EU is a creeping totalitarian state and that would represent a backward step.You think Article 11 and Article 13 were bad? Give it another decade.
Where on Earth did you get that idea? There is no such thing as a common market without common regulations. You realize CAP was already 20 years old by that time?
|
Common market, with sovereign control of borders and laws.
Oh look. It's not like for three years people tried to explain to people like you that these two things are mutually exclusive, and yet you still bring up "solutions" that simply don't exist. Sure. Lets completely shit on the principles the EU common market is running on for decades to accommodate people who don't understand the concept of "red lines" while continuously demanding that their red lines ought to be respected.
Let me ask you in all sincerity. What do you actually think you're doing here? You demonstrably have no clue what you're talking about, you demonstrably run around like Trump with "easy solutions" to problems that you have no hope in hell to even remotely fathom (nor do i, but i at least understand that they exist and that it's not a simple "build a wall, done"). All you do is repeat points that were already debunked when Brexiters were campaigning for the referendum, let alone three years later.
Here's the deal. For the twelveteenth time. Common market includes four freedoms, which include freedom of movement for EU citizens. It's that easy. Switzerland agreed to it, Norway agreed to it, it's not worth having another discussion on deluded wishful thinking. If you want to be part of the single market, you have to accept freedom of movement. No, the rules don't have to and will not change to please someone who wants to leave. Those are the rules. If the UK rules out freedom of movement for whatever reason, which is entirely their right, they will not get access to the common market. That's a red line of the EU. And that's the red line of 27 states, and in addition to that, Norway and Switzerland. Norway specifically is very opposed to even give the UK the option for a Norway style deal.
Note that what was voted on in 1975 doesn't even exist anymore. Try reading the Maastricht treaty.
Because the EU is a creeping totalitarian state and that would represent a backward step.
In all that edgelording you seem to have missed that going back half a century (1975 referendum/common market, remember?) to accommodate the UK really isn't that forward thinking, is it.
Where on Earth did you get that idea? There is no such thing as a common market without common regulations. You realize CAP was already 20 years old by that time?
Well it's not like it's not literally what ERG, other tories etc are vomiting into the ether. He just lacks the ability to proofread bullshit he caught while listening to Mogg and consorts.
|
You seem to confuse common market with single market. Common market and control of borders are not mutually exclusive. For single market it is though.
I'm not sure how being in a common market with a single market would even work. My guess is that it doesn’t, on a fundamental level, and is why it has never been a topic.
|
I'm not confusing anything. But sure, explain what the common market is.
Especially in conjunction with the referenced 1975 referendum.
Let me briefly point this out:
on 5 June 1975 in the United Kingdom to gauge support for the country's continued membership of the European Communities (EC) — often known at the time as the European Community and the Common Market
The European Economic Community (EEC) was a regional organisation which aimed to bring about economic integration among its member states. It was created by the Treaty of Rome of 1957. Upon the formation of the European Union (EU) in 1993, the EEC was incorporated and renamed as the European Community (EC).
In 1993, a complete single market was achieved, known as the internal market, which allowed for the free movement of goods, capital, services, and people within the EEC. In 1994, the internal market was formalised by the EEA agreement.
A common market is a free trade area with relatively free movement of capital and services.
The European Economic Community is sometimes referred to as the "Common Market", a regional organisation from 1958 to 1993.
Common market or Common Market may also refer to:
European Single Market, referred to as the "European Common Market" prior to 1993
Common market absolutely is the single market. He's not talking about "a common market" but the common market referenced in 1975, and that is what's known today as the single market.
Hell, "common market 2.0" suggested by tories acknowledges the four freedoms. It really isn't that hard to slam in "eu common market" into google and just have a look at the results, even without opening any.
|
On April 10 2019 09:54 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Why not allow the UK to return to what the people approved in the 1975 referendum.Common market, with sovereign control of borders and laws.
Because the EU is a creeping totalitarian state and that would represent a backward step.You think Article 11 and Article 13 were bad? Give it another decade.
1. Not sure what exactly you're saying. Do you mean, by chance, leaving the single market and remaining in the EEA? There are 3 states right now in this position, Norway, Iceland and Lichtenstein.
As far as i understood, a similar indicative vote was held in the UK parliament and it was easily defeated.. So apparently the UK does not want to be part of "just the common market" either.
2. EU is as far from a totalitarian state as anything i could think of.
It's very very far away from being even a loose, decentralized federal state. And as for totalitarian, that's a joke im sure, EU institutions are mainly criticized for being so slow to act and react, since there are are a bunch of institutions and factions within those.
There isnt a EU military, there isnt a a distinguishable European leadership, let alone a single leader with any sort of legitimacy. Arguably the most power held by any one person in the EU is the Commission president or the EP president. Neither of whom could do jackshit by their own, their executive/legislative power is somewhere between the speaker of the house in the UK and a less important cabinet member + Show Spoiler +(not and actual parallel, just something from the top of my head)
Where did you even come up with this stuff? totalitarian state and all...
|
Northern Ireland27459 Posts
Sigh, wish certain segments of our tabloid would stop with the ‘humiliation’ headlines, really not helpful at all.
Making a good decision is all that’s actually importance, not the extrapolated ego of the nation, or MPs, or voters.
I have a friend whose divorce is taking longer to go through than Brexit is being negotiated. If you’ve been agitating for it for a decade, or more, what’s the rush?
|
Summit is about to begin 
My guess is quite a long extension (like end of 2019) but with some rules to kick UK out as soon as they don't play ball EU-wise.
Edit: I don't think May will resign either way. She is too proud for that
|
No official announcement yet (other than that they agreed on a date) but word is that the extension is until October 31 with a review on June 30.
Edit:
|
I look forward to no solution have been found in 6 months and the UK awkwardly looking at each-other going "should we ask for another"?
ps.
I assume this will mean EU elections in the UK.
That's going to be 'fun'.
|
On April 10 2019 11:39 m4ini wrote:Note that what was voted on in 1975 doesn't even exist anymore. Try reading the Maastricht treaty. Show nested quote +Because the EU is a creeping totalitarian state and that would represent a backward step. In all that edgelording you seem to have missed that going back half a century (1975 referendum/common market, remember?) to accommodate the UK really isn't that forward thinking, is it.
Maastrict treaty was never voted on by the UK population in a referendum.People never voted for open borders.It’s no coincidence that the UKIP was formed the year after Maastrict passed is it?
Every step has been one toward giving the EU more power.But this cannot work long term because you cannot have economies like Greece and Germany under the same central bank policy and currency.Wait until they need another bailout soon and maybe you’ll work that out...
|
And that's gg. Brexit will be dragged over so many coals by that point. The more time that goes by, the more Brexit shrinks into improbability.
|
On April 10 2019 11:39 m4ini wrote:
Note that what was voted on in 1975 doesn't even exist anymore.
Did you read my post? I said that what the UK public voted on in 1975 is not what they have now.This was a central pillar of the leave campaign... Then i went on to say it wouldn’t be possible to go back to that in the following paragraph.Thanks for agreeing with me, i guess.
|
On April 11 2019 09:14 Gorsameth wrote:
I look forward to no solution have been found in 6 months and the UK awkwardly looking at each-other going "should we ask for another"?
ps.
I assume this will mean EU elections in the UK.
That's going to be 'fun'.
Yup, EU elections in the UK are a given at this point. France opposed it and wanted a short extension only until before the day of elections, Germany and most others wanted an extension until the end of the year, so they've settled on this compromise after a few hours of debate. If only factions in UK politics would do something similar.
|
|
|
Northern Ireland27459 Posts
It’s a (bad) hyperbolic piece, that’s about it. Not a fan
If you’re not too busy filing it under comedy could you read bio a bit on how the EU is actually structured and works?
You know the totalitarian state that requires supermajorities to do various things, and absolutely state unanimity (including referenda) to make changes to security/defence structures
|
On April 11 2019 09:30 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2019 11:39 m4ini wrote:Note that what was voted on in 1975 doesn't even exist anymore. Try reading the Maastricht treaty. Because the EU is a creeping totalitarian state and that would represent a backward step. In all that edgelording you seem to have missed that going back half a century (1975 referendum/common market, remember?) to accommodate the UK really isn't that forward thinking, is it. Maastrict treaty was never voted on by the UK population in a referendum.People never voted for open borders.
Because the country isn't run by "the people". Never has been, never will be.
Here's a fun thing. No one voted for PRISM either. Or the snoopers charter. Or, here's a really fun one, the other way around: it doesn't matter what scotland votes (remember, those funny accent people, who overwhelmingly voted to stay in the EU?). How about we have a vote on, i don't know, every single trade deal in the near future (and by that i mean probably somewhere in 5-10 years), to make sure chlorinated chicken and the sorts don't land on the table?
Here's something factual for a change. The UK had a referendum on joining, and on leaving the EU (even though it wasn't named EU back then). See the pattern here? Let me make it clearer. The only other, third, referendum was held on a possible constitutional change in regards to FPTP.
"People" don't get to vote on policy. They do that by voting the party that offers the manifesto they identify with. That's called democracy. I know it's somewhat hard to grasp when you think you got it all figured out, but indeed, that's how it works. And it leads to something else funny.
It’s no coincidence that the UKIP was formed the year after Maastrict passed is it?
And what a roaring success story that was. Formed in 1993. Political irrelevancy until 2013. Brings us back to how democracy (and "countries") work. The "people" don't get to vote on policies. They do get to vote on political manifestos and elect representatives. They decided to not vote for the party that literally ran on rallying against Maastricht.
But i'm done here. If we're lucky, May and Tusk call you later, so things can be sorted and done somewhere before the weekend - i'm sick of hearing "Brexit" on sundays pub quiz. Cheers for sorting it.
If you’re not too busy filing it under comedy
He doesn't need to, the Guardian filed it under Essay and Fiction already. Something he forgot to mention. I mean, of course, it's not a "guardian piece" but written by an actual writer and critic, but these are just details. It's not even an Opinion.
You know the totalitarian state that requires supermajorities to do various things, and absolutely state unanimity (including referenda) to make changes to security/defence structures
What, when they just showed how progress works? Leaders of 27 countries, all with their own interest and different opinions on extension length coming to a conclusion in less than three hours? Blackmail. At gunpoint. You see, Tusk has these men. They're dressed in black and have funny dildo shaped sticks. These flashes you see through windows and under doors aren't camera flashes. It's brainwashing.
I mean, it is kinda funny how pathetic the UK parliament looks compared to the EU, with their only argument being "we're not used to have to compromise, so we suck at it".
edit: by funny i mean sad. And by sad i mean infuriating.
|
On April 11 2019 09:14 Gorsameth wrote:
I look forward to no solution have been found in 6 months and the UK awkwardly looking at each-other going "should we ask for another"?
ps.
I assume this will mean EU elections in the UK.
That's going to be 'fun'.
I really wished this could be avoided.
Technically, there is still a chance, if the UK refuses to hold them, they re automatically kicked out with no deal, but ofc UK parliament wont have that so, yeay, EP elections gonna be held in the UK....
and a bunch of loud mouthed empty heads going to Bruxelles to shout nonsense about sovereignty and independence for the next 6-60 months, with no intention of helping shape policy in any way.
|
On April 11 2019 00:39 Harris1st wrote:Summit is about to begin My guess is quite a long extension (like end of 2019) but with some rules to kick UK out as soon as they don't play ball EU-wise. Edit: I don't think May will resign either way. She is too proud for that
Called it! Why is there no betting game?
Dear UK people,
is there a way for you to do early elections? Like completely replace every politician? Maybe that would work
|
On April 11 2019 17:52 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2019 00:39 Harris1st wrote:Summit is about to begin My guess is quite a long extension (like end of 2019) but with some rules to kick UK out as soon as they don't play ball EU-wise. Edit: I don't think May will resign either way. She is too proud for that Called it! Why is there no betting game? Dear UK people, is there a way for you to do early elections? Like completely replace every politician? Maybe that would work They 'just' had an election, next one is planned for 2022 and I don't see May holding early elections because it will just end in her resignation.
|
On April 11 2019 17:36 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2019 09:14 Gorsameth wrote:
I look forward to no solution have been found in 6 months and the UK awkwardly looking at each-other going "should we ask for another"?
ps.
I assume this will mean EU elections in the UK.
That's going to be 'fun'. I really wished this could be avoided. Technically, there is still a chance, if the UK refuses to hold them, they re automatically kicked out with no deal, but ofc UK parliament wont have that so, yeay, EP elections gonna be held in the UK.... and a bunch of loud mouthed empty heads going to Bruxelles to shout nonsense about sovereignty and independence for the next 6-60 months, with no intention of helping shape policy in any way.
I don't think this is a sure thing. My take is that the anti-EU side is strong but the vocal pro-EU side has probably never been stronger. It will be a polarizing election for sure.
Now everyone can take a breather and come no closer to a solution until end of October when the EU will grant a strictly conditional extension. Yes but only IF there is a second referendum to break the deadlock. May with only a month left before being replaced has no option but to accept since parliament won't let her leave with no deal. The conservatives gets to blame the big bully EU, UK ends up remaining and everyone is happy. Scene, queue the credits.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
