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On November 01 2017 08:25 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2017 08:09 Reaps wrote:On November 01 2017 07:51 Liquid`Drone wrote:
And I must say that while I persistently argue that not every sexually inappropriate behavior is assault and that I think we must be careful with demonizing people for slightly overstepping what frequently is a gray area, I also think it's awesome that so many women feel empowered enough to go public with stories of actual rape and actual sexual assault. Really positive development. Yes, and at the same time pretty horrifying since now we know how often this kind of stuff actually happens. "Now"? This has been pretty much the most widely open secret in history. I have no female friends (who have been friendly enough to share such details with me at least) who haven't been sexually abused in one way or another. I echo the feeling of it being great that so many women are finally stepping forward in a more official way and shedding a bigger spotlight on this problem, but let's not pretend we didn't know about this all along shall we?
I am comparing to decades ago, that "now" it gets reported more often.
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On November 01 2017 08:26 Reaps wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2017 08:25 Excludos wrote:On November 01 2017 08:09 Reaps wrote:On November 01 2017 07:51 Liquid`Drone wrote:
And I must say that while I persistently argue that not every sexually inappropriate behavior is assault and that I think we must be careful with demonizing people for slightly overstepping what frequently is a gray area, I also think it's awesome that so many women feel empowered enough to go public with stories of actual rape and actual sexual assault. Really positive development. Yes, and at the same time pretty horrifying since now we know how often this kind of stuff actually happens. "Now"? This has been pretty much the most widely open secret in history. I have no female friends (who have been friendly enough to share such details with me at least) who haven't been sexually abused in one way or another. I echo the feeling of it being great that so many women are finally stepping forward in a more official way and shedding a bigger spotlight on this problem, but let's not pretend we didn't know about this all along shall we? I am comparing to decades ago, that "now" it gets reported more often.
Ok i'll give you that one. Decades ago this wasn't nearly as in the open as it is nowadays for sure. One of the perks of social media and live news which are able to cover other topics than just the biggest ones.
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On November 01 2017 08:28 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2017 08:26 Reaps wrote:On November 01 2017 08:25 Excludos wrote:On November 01 2017 08:09 Reaps wrote:On November 01 2017 07:51 Liquid`Drone wrote:
And I must say that while I persistently argue that not every sexually inappropriate behavior is assault and that I think we must be careful with demonizing people for slightly overstepping what frequently is a gray area, I also think it's awesome that so many women feel empowered enough to go public with stories of actual rape and actual sexual assault. Really positive development. Yes, and at the same time pretty horrifying since now we know how often this kind of stuff actually happens. "Now"? This has been pretty much the most widely open secret in history. I have no female friends (who have been friendly enough to share such details with me at least) who haven't been sexually abused in one way or another. I echo the feeling of it being great that so many women are finally stepping forward in a more official way and shedding a bigger spotlight on this problem, but let's not pretend we didn't know about this all along shall we? I am comparing to decades ago, that "now" it gets reported more often. Ok i'll give you that one. Decades ago this wasn't nearly as in the open as it is nowadays for sure.
Yes that was the point of my post.
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I still do not understand what this has to do with politics. Everyone here has basically accepted that there is a line not to cross- all be it a seemingly subjective one. But then I guess the stagnation and inaction in regards to Brexit doesn't really deserve any further comment; it just keeps turning in circles. Considerably comparable to the US, the entire situation has become completely partisan (from the ruling party) with absolutely no care towards the citizens or the country.
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United States43983 Posts
In any group of people those at the top set the example that works its way down. From a book club to a company, an organization, or even a forum, what is shown to be acceptable by those in power is normalized all the way down. That's why we demand better from our public officials.
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No. many societies, consolidations, organisations do not work like that. A book club? lol. llteu
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United States43983 Posts
Really, even a book club. People draw their social cues from those above them. If your boss shows up late then you'll worry less about being in on time. It doesn't matter what the thing is, once the guy above you normalizes it, if you stand to profit from it you'll probably do it. It's human nature.
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On November 01 2017 12:46 MyTHicaL wrote:
No. many societies, consolidations, organisations do not work like that. A book club? lol. llteu
My mum used to be part of a book club until some posh people joined and kept on pushing their values on what was worth reading. Can happen in any social group or institution.
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One overt political aspect is the focus on abuse of women rather than abuse of people in general.
There is next to no support for male victims of abuse, despite the fact that the UK has hundreds of thousands of men who have suffered it (and I don't mean the most broad definition, e.g. ass slapping or whatever, which includes every human on the planet.) My home city has multiple female crisis centres, but my support was limited to a 45 minute online IM conversation (you get cut off after that) with someone who was probably talking to a dozen people at once - I was explicitly excluded from the vast amount of real support for female abuse victims. The social and political landscape utterly marginalises male victims, and men are identified only as perpetrators rather than sufferers, to the extent that male victims often cannot even recognise the abuse they have suffered themselves as abuse. See, for example, the #metoo campaign, which only talks about women suffering, despite the fact that the conversation was sparked by abuse in the media, which anyone who pays any attention knows affects a huge amount of males.
Men are not even enabled to articulate their suffering because we are boxed into a world where men cannot suffer: suffering is for women only. It's unbearably upsetting.
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On November 01 2017 17:22 FuzzyJAM wrote:
One overt political aspect is the focus on abuse of women rather than abuse of people in general.
There is next to no support for male victims of abuse, despite the fact that the UK has hundreds of thousands of men who have suffered it (and I don't mean the most broad definition, e.g. ass slapping or whatever, which includes every human on the planet.) My home city has multiple female crisis centres, but my support was limited to a 45 minute online IM conversation (you get cut off after that) with someone who was probably talking to a dozen people at once - I was explicitly excluded from the vast amount of real support for female abuse victims. The social and political landscape utterly marginalises male victims, and men are identified only as perpetrators rather than sufferers, to the extent that male victims often cannot even recognise the abuse they have suffered themselves as abuse. See, for example, the #metoo campaign, which only talks about women suffering, despite the fact that the conversation was sparked by abuse in the media, which anyone who pays any attention knows affects a huge amount of males.
Men are not even enabled to articulate their suffering because we are boxed into a world where men cannot suffer: suffering is for women only. It's unbearably upsetting.
"But it is specific to a single gender. Sure it happens to men too, but you can´t even begin to compare it. By not making it specific what you actually sweep under the rug is the systematic and structural violence women suffer."
"it actually dilutes the meaning of this. This is not about men, it shouldn't be about men, stop trying to make it about men. It's not that the things you're talking about are not important, but that's not what this is about. By trying to steal away the spotlight from a women's issue, you end up looking a lot like the problem."
These are responses on a facebook post where I tried to discuss exactly this a few weeks ago (by friends mind you, not random strangers). If you try to add that men have this problem too, you're "trying to make it a mans problem" and you're "a part of the problem".. People agree that it happens, it's just not as important. I was fucking shocked when I read up on some statistics on how big of a problem this actually is:
https://1in6.org/get-information/the-1-in-6-statistic/
It's such a taboo subject that 84% of men who have literally had a documented history of abuse refuses to acknowledge that it's happened to them.
Yes, it does happen more to women than men, but this isn't a problem that would vanish even if there was absolutely zero discrimination between the genders in society, so why not fight for all people? No one is fighting for only transgenders when they could be fighting for the entire LGBTQ society, why should this be any different?
And for those asking what this has to do with politics: Everything. There needs to be an increased focus on help for the victims (for both women AND men, as FuzzyJAM mentions above), and an increased focus on actually catching and punishing/helping the perpetrators (Yes, I said helping. I don't live in the US where punishment is the only form of action towards criminals), more focus on it in schools, etc. There's loads of things you can do, and anything helps. Even just having focus on it in general so people can stop ignoring this ridiculously widespread problem.
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Suicide rates for men are higher, Girls do better in school/college/university, men still often get shafted on custody laws despite the law being pretty decent now, men pay 6X% into the statewide retirementfund but only use lowish 4X% of it... - in Switzerland (++ many other more specific swiss issues).
Imagine the outrage when this stuff would be the other way round.
But hey, feminism is totally about equality....
Btw: i'm actually very symphatetic to the feminist cause, I just deeply dislike the outrage machinery around it.
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I wholeheartedly agree that many societal changes are needed to achieve equality. Who has had the reigns in their hands for, like, forever? Probably too in Switzerland (superficially judging from women's voting rights). And didn't change anything. Yes. Men. So blame feminism for their own inaction. Am I reading you wrong? Could be.
Mmmmmh I also wonder how many hours a week women, especially mothers, do unpaid labor that doesn't contribute to the pension fund so her partner can readily after paying in so much in a nice, clean home with a good, hand cooked meal on the table. I suspect men dying 4 years earlier than women is also due to feminism? Or maybe a reason why they take less out of the pension put? But I suspect you know all that and cannot but wonder why you'd post the like...
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Most of that unpaid work is paid, by the money the father brings home. Most of the youth work is done by men and also unpaid. Raising your own children isn't work and in case of divorce/seperate pay the father will have to pay (if he can). Women complain they are not getting enough pension, while atm getting most of it allready. Cleaning/eating is also done by singles, do they get to be paid for it too?
I could get into more specific issues, my main point is that 3d wave feminism just isn't adding up.
You think you have an argument, but what do you really got? Women give birth and thats about it.
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So has third wave feminism not been adding up since the 1990s or is this a recent, 2017 thing?
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I don't know if I accidentally left the tin foil hat on too long but I'm fairly sure this Fallon debacle is designed to make the future allegations pass deeper under the radar - right up to him falling on his sword.
edit: https://m.imgur.com/a/xOqXr
This list of MPs and transgressions makes me think it was probably just a pre-emptive resignation in fact
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On November 02 2017 04:36 kollin wrote:I don't know if I accidentally left the tin foil hat on too long but I'm fairly sure this Fallon debacle is designed to make the future allegations pass deeper under the radar - right up to him falling on his sword. edit: https://m.imgur.com/a/xOqXrThis list of MPs and transgressions makes me think it was probably just a pre-emptive resignation in fact
I've seen that list half of it I saw no problem with it was stuff like "dating personal trainer", "has sex with men" "chats up other MPs" seemed the person who created it is a bit of a homophobe/prude. The other half of the list is obviously a concern and should be investigated.
Also a few of those are historic and already known, John Wittingdale was already outed about using prostitutes, Boris is already known to have had several affairs etc.
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Looks like it was pre-emptive. Also worth mentioning that if just quarter of that list has substance to it the government will lose its majority.
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I wonder what's coming for Labour. There's been a strange lack of the usual moral smugness and finger pointing.
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Fair bit of anger over the new defence secretary
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EPT
