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On August 10 2017 05:21 Artisreal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2017 05:18 Sent. wrote:On August 10 2017 04:43 Plansix wrote:So Muslims and Catholic priests have a lot in common? On August 10 2017 03:49 bardtown wrote:
The denial is strong already. Don’t be so hard on yourself, you will be able to see past skin and xenophobia some day. Do you not see anything wrong with mocking bardtown's hostility to one religious group by insulting another? Asking because I'm simply curious, I'm not very religious and I don't feel offended by your post. It's kinda been proven time and again that catholic institutions in several countries have been abusing boys for years and years.
No doubt, i don't think Sent denied that. We also need to look at the fact that the majority of the child grooming gangs are made up of Muslims, when Muslims make up such a small portion of the UK, its a very serious problem that needs honest discussions, so after reading the replies of some of the people here i am appalled. Bardtown could have made it clearer as to what he meant, but to me it was obvious as these child grooming cases always end up being the same.
No one is suggesting that all Muslims do it, people need to understand that, but its no secret Islam has problems with treatment of women, you only need to look at Muslim majority country's to know this, where they are literally treated like slaves.
Edit: @ Plansix, the problem with that its impossible to have any objective discussion on the subject if you're unable to critize other race/cultures, its like admitting to ignorance. Surely you can understand why people won't want to engage with you in certain topics if thats how you feel. All cultures do bad shit, but some are on a different scale than others.
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Yes. I am saying it is impossible to have an objective discussion about other cultures is races because I lack enough information. I am not so arrogant to believe I could have an objective discussion on another culture. People get entire PHDs on understanding specific cultures and their history. I can have a completely biased discussion that is poorly informed and make judgments based on imperfect information. And I do with some people. But that all with the awareness that the discussion is based on my general lack of understanding and limited information. If you have a secret PHD in Muslim studies and Middle East history, drop some knowledge on us all.
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On August 10 2017 05:32 Plansix wrote:
Yes. I am saying it is impossible to have an objective discussion about other cultures is races because I lack enough information. I am not so arrogant to believe I could have an objective discussion on another culture. People get entire PHDs on understanding specific cultures and their history. I can have a completely biased discussion that is poorly informed and make judgments based on imperfect information. And I do with some people. But that all with the awareness that the discussion is based on my general lack of understanding and limited information. If you have a secret PHD in Muslim studies and Middle East history, drop some knowledge on us all.
Fair enough, the last time i checked you don't need a PHD to know how women are treated in Muslim majority countries though surely.
Sentenced to death for adultery
Unable to leave the house without a male escort.
Having to dress a certain way.
Unable to work or even drive.
The list goes on. surely you're aware of all this, no? Unless you suggest everything we know about the Middle East and women is a complete myth.
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On August 10 2017 05:21 Artisreal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2017 05:18 Sent. wrote:On August 10 2017 04:43 Plansix wrote:So Muslims and Catholic priests have a lot in common? On August 10 2017 03:49 bardtown wrote:
The denial is strong already. Don’t be so hard on yourself, you will be able to see past skin and xenophobia some day. Do you not see anything wrong with mocking bardtown's hostility to one religious group by insulting another? Asking because I'm simply curious, I'm not very religious and I don't feel offended by your post. It's kinda been proven time and again that catholic institutions in several countries have been abusing boys for years and years.
"It's kinda been proven time and again that muslims in several countries have been blowing up people for years and years."
It's different because he's talking only about the priests?
"It's kinda been proven time and again that muslim imams in several countries have been encouraging other muslims to blow up people for years and years."
Is that an acceptable thing to say?
Reaps is correct, I do not deny that the Catholic Church has a problem with pedophilia.
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United States43976 Posts
On August 10 2017 05:38 Reaps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2017 05:32 Plansix wrote:
Yes. I am saying it is impossible to have an objective discussion about other cultures is races because I lack enough information. I am not so arrogant to believe I could have an objective discussion on another culture. People get entire PHDs on understanding specific cultures and their history. I can have a completely biased discussion that is poorly informed and make judgments based on imperfect information. And I do with some people. But that all with the awareness that the discussion is based on my general lack of understanding and limited information. If you have a secret PHD in Muslim studies and Middle East history, drop some knowledge on us all. Fair enough, the last time i checked you don't need a PHD to know how women are treated in Muslim majority countries though surely. Sentenced to death for adultery Unable to leave the house without a male escort. Having to dress a certain way. Unable to work or even drive. The list goes on. surely you're aware of all this, no? Unless you suggest everything we know about the Middle East is a complete myth.
That's mostly Saudi Arabia. Islam isn't homogeneous. Jordan is very different, as is Singapore. Iran before the revolution and Afghanistan before the Taliban were different too. As is Turkey.
I'm no apologist for Islam, nor any religion, but what you're doing is akin to suggesting that all Christianity is the same as Mormonism.
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Exactly. I have visited mosques in my country that are warm and accepting. Muslims in the US approve of LGBT rights as somewhere around 50%, which is a full 30% higher than most of our hard core Christians. I have opinions on Muslims. That opinion is that they are a lot like most humans on this planet and very wildly.
Also, there is a huge difference between discussion and the mythical “Objective discussion”. No one here is objective, because we are still humans.
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On August 10 2017 05:38 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2017 05:21 Artisreal wrote:On August 10 2017 05:18 Sent. wrote:On August 10 2017 04:43 Plansix wrote:So Muslims and Catholic priests have a lot in common? On August 10 2017 03:49 bardtown wrote:
The denial is strong already. Don’t be so hard on yourself, you will be able to see past skin and xenophobia some day. Do you not see anything wrong with mocking bardtown's hostility to one religious group by insulting another? Asking because I'm simply curious, I'm not very religious and I don't feel offended by your post. It's kinda been proven time and again that catholic institutions in several countries have been abusing boys for years and years. "It's kinda been proven time and again that muslims in several countries have been blowing up people for years and years."It's different because he's talking only about the priests? "It's kinda been proven time and again that muslim imams in several countries have been encouraging other muslims to blow up people for years and years."Is that an acceptable thing to say? Reaps is correct, I do not deny that the Catholic Church has a problem with pedophilia. Personally I find the distinction between priests and common worshippers quite important here. I would not equate their need to molest young boys.
If that's what you were asking.
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On August 10 2017 05:40 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2017 05:38 Reaps wrote:On August 10 2017 05:32 Plansix wrote:
Yes. I am saying it is impossible to have an objective discussion about other cultures is races because I lack enough information. I am not so arrogant to believe I could have an objective discussion on another culture. People get entire PHDs on understanding specific cultures and their history. I can have a completely biased discussion that is poorly informed and make judgments based on imperfect information. And I do with some people. But that all with the awareness that the discussion is based on my general lack of understanding and limited information. If you have a secret PHD in Muslim studies and Middle East history, drop some knowledge on us all. Fair enough, the last time i checked you don't need a PHD to know how women are treated in Muslim majority countries though surely. Sentenced to death for adultery Unable to leave the house without a male escort. Having to dress a certain way. Unable to work or even drive. The list goes on. surely you're aware of all this, no? Unless you suggest everything we know about the Middle East is a complete myth. That's mostly Saudi Arabia. Islam isn't homogeneous. Jordan is very different, as is Singapore. Iran before the revolution and Afghanistan before the Taliban were different too. As is Turkey. I'm no apologist for Islam, nor any religion, but what you're doing is akin to suggesting that all Christianity is the same as Mormonism.
We are in present day 2017, its not Iran before the revolution, and not Afghanistan before the Taliban, Turkey still has a lot of securlists, the only two countries on your list i'd agree with is Jordan and Singapore and those two are still far far away from perfect.
You also forgot Pakistan which seems to be the main country mentioned when it comes to these child grooming cases.
My point is mainstream Islam has a massive problem with women, more so than any other religion or culture, do you agree or disagree.
I guess i should add, that the west is far from perfect when it comes to women also, in case anyone wants to point that out.
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United States43976 Posts
On August 10 2017 05:47 Reaps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2017 05:40 KwarK wrote:On August 10 2017 05:38 Reaps wrote:On August 10 2017 05:32 Plansix wrote:
Yes. I am saying it is impossible to have an objective discussion about other cultures is races because I lack enough information. I am not so arrogant to believe I could have an objective discussion on another culture. People get entire PHDs on understanding specific cultures and their history. I can have a completely biased discussion that is poorly informed and make judgments based on imperfect information. And I do with some people. But that all with the awareness that the discussion is based on my general lack of understanding and limited information. If you have a secret PHD in Muslim studies and Middle East history, drop some knowledge on us all. Fair enough, the last time i checked you don't need a PHD to know how women are treated in Muslim majority countries though surely. Sentenced to death for adultery Unable to leave the house without a male escort. Having to dress a certain way. Unable to work or even drive. The list goes on. surely you're aware of all this, no? Unless you suggest everything we know about the Middle East is a complete myth. That's mostly Saudi Arabia. Islam isn't homogeneous. Jordan is very different, as is Singapore. Iran before the revolution and Afghanistan before the Taliban were different too. As is Turkey. I'm no apologist for Islam, nor any religion, but what you're doing is akin to suggesting that all Christianity is the same as Mormonism. We are in present day 2017, its not Iran before the revolution, and not Afghanistan before the Taliban, Turkey still has a lot of securlists, the only two countries on your list i'd agree with is Jordan and Singapore and those two are still far far away from perfect. You also forgot Pakistan which seems to be the main country mentioned when it comes to these child grooming cases. My point is mainstream Islam has a massive problem with women, more so than any other religion or culture, do you agree or disagree.
As I said, some branches of Islam have a massive problem with women.
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And if all those charged are not from the same denomination of Islam, which seems very likely, where does that leave your point?
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United States43976 Posts
On August 10 2017 06:16 bardtown wrote:
And if all those charged are not from the same denomination of Islam, which seems very likely, where does that leave your point?
Do you not understand that the word branches can refer to more than one branch?
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At the end of the day if people from multiple branches of Islam are grouping up to form these gangs, I don't see the problem in saying it's a problem with Islam. It's not coincidental that so many 'branches' feature so many of the same flaws. And in that case it wouldn't be a particular brand of Islam that they had in common - only Islam.
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United States43976 Posts
On August 10 2017 06:23 bardtown wrote:
At the end of the day if people from multiple branches of Islam are grouping up to form these gangs, I don't see the problem in saying it's a problem with Islam. It's not coincidental that so many 'branches' feature so many of the same flaws.
Do you not understand that the word branches means different directions from a main trunk?
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People who are similar tend to group together. Especially criminal groups are often closely related in some way.
Your point (Which i still have to guess because you haven't made it yet) seems to be that muslims tend to form child-abuse groups, and the reason they do that is because they are muslim. You have yet to actually produce any evidence for that hypothesis except for "look at a bunch of people who are probably muslim doing that".
There are multiple obvious problems with this thesis:
a) You have so far failed to actually provide evidence of them being muslims.
b) Even if they are all muslims, you have failed to provide evidence that them being muslims is what made them form that group, instead of them forming a group with a bunch of other guys who they happen to know.
c) You probably want at that point to generalize that Islam is a problem. You will have to deal with the problem that there are lots of other criminal gangs of non-muslims.
It would greatly help the discourse here if you could be bothered to actually make your argument yourself instead of having people have to guess it.
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United States43976 Posts
Okay, so the word "branch" is a protrusion of wood grown by off of the "trunk", which is the central column of a tree. In this case it is being used as a metaphor. Where there is one concept or organization (the tree in this metaphor) that has split into many different directions, some of which split even further along the line, those can be referred to as branches.
So I said that some of the branches of the tree of Islam had problems with women.
You attempted to refute this by saying that if two or more branches had problems with women then clearly it couldn't just be a single branch that is the problem.
While that point is correct, it's also exactly what I already told you when I said that some of the branches had problems with women.
You then attempted to insist that if someone of the branches had problems with women then the entire tree must have problems with women.
I then attempted to explain that that's not how it works but unfortunately I struggled because you're apparently unfamiliar with the way that the word branches can be used as a metaphor in the English language. Which is sad. But that's comprehensive schools for you.
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On August 10 2017 03:39 bardtown wrote:Operation Sanctuary: Newcastle child sex network convictedhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40879427Show nested quote +Those prosecuted were from the Bangladeshi, Pakistani, Indian, Iraqi, Iranian and Turkish communities and mainly British-born, with most living in the West End of Newcastle. So diverse. I wonder what they have in common?
When will people stop taking this clear bait. You paint the field with any people group or segment you want that is permissive to criticize. Leave voters, evangelicals, conservatives, UKIP, old people, white people, native-born. You can say the most vile things you want. Talk about weird coincidences, even hint that maybe Muslims in the UK are uniquely susceptible to rapists in their midst, and it's all "they must be hating brown people! Rise up, mighty strawmen makers, it's all hands on deck."
Back in reality, is the future play here that these people were poorly socialized from British institutions (we haven't done enough) or just declare it's to insignificant of a net population to even worry.
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On August 10 2017 06:32 KwarK wrote:
Okay, so the word "branch" is a protrusion of wood grown by off of the "trunk", which is the central column of a tree. In this case it is being used as a metaphor. Where there is one concept or organization (the tree in this metaphor) that has split into many different directions, some of which split even further along the line, those can be referred to as branches.
So I said that some of the branches of the tree of Islam had problems with women.
You attempted to refute this by saying that if two or more branches had problems with women then clearly it couldn't just be a single branch that is the problem.
While that point is correct, it's also exactly what I already told you when I said that some of the branches had problems with women.
You then attempted to insist that if someone of the branches had problems with women then the entire tree must have problems with women.
I then attempted to explain that that's not how it works but unfortunately I struggled because you're apparently unfamiliar with the way that the word branches can be used as a metaphor in the English language. Which is sad. But that's comprehensive schools for you.
If a tree keeps producing branches and those branches keep producing peaches, you might be forgiven for supposing that it is a peach tree.
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United States43976 Posts
On August 10 2017 06:39 bardtown wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2017 06:32 KwarK wrote:
Okay, so the word "branch" is a protrusion of wood grown by off of the "trunk", which is the central column of a tree. In this case it is being used as a metaphor. Where there is one concept or organization (the tree in this metaphor) that has split into many different directions, some of which split even further along the line, those can be referred to as branches.
So I said that some of the branches of the tree of Islam had problems with women.
You attempted to refute this by saying that if two or more branches had problems with women then clearly it couldn't just be a single branch that is the problem.
While that point is correct, it's also exactly what I already told you when I said that some of the branches had problems with women.
You then attempted to insist that if someone of the branches had problems with women then the entire tree must have problems with women.
I then attempted to explain that that's not how it works but unfortunately I struggled because you're apparently unfamiliar with the way that the word branches can be used as a metaphor in the English language. Which is sad. But that's comprehensive schools for you. If a tree keeps producing branches and those branches keep producing peaches, you might be forgiven for supposing that it is a peach tree.
Okay, so you're still struggling with the fact that it's a metaphor. So the branches are in different directions. That's how the metaphor works. What you've done is said "okay, but imagine all the branches end up in the same place and produce the same fruit, what then?"
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On August 10 2017 06:41 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2017 06:39 bardtown wrote:On August 10 2017 06:32 KwarK wrote:
Okay, so the word "branch" is a protrusion of wood grown by off of the "trunk", which is the central column of a tree. In this case it is being used as a metaphor. Where there is one concept or organization (the tree in this metaphor) that has split into many different directions, some of which split even further along the line, those can be referred to as branches.
So I said that some of the branches of the tree of Islam had problems with women.
You attempted to refute this by saying that if two or more branches had problems with women then clearly it couldn't just be a single branch that is the problem.
While that point is correct, it's also exactly what I already told you when I said that some of the branches had problems with women.
You then attempted to insist that if someone of the branches had problems with women then the entire tree must have problems with women.
I then attempted to explain that that's not how it works but unfortunately I struggled because you're apparently unfamiliar with the way that the word branches can be used as a metaphor in the English language. Which is sad. But that's comprehensive schools for you. If a tree keeps producing branches and those branches keep producing peaches, you might be forgiven for supposing that it is a peach tree. Okay, so you're still struggling with the fact that it's a metaphor. So the branches are in different directions. That's how the metaphor works. What you've done is said "okay, but imagine all the branches end up in the same place and produce the same fruit, what then?"
Which is the point, because in this example we have people from many different nationalities, likely many different denominations of Islam, and yet all part of the same child abuse gang. There's only one thing they have in common.
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EPT
