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On September 21 2013 03:37 olias wrote:
Discussions on this thread would be so much more cordial without GhastlyUprising stumbling about, attacking straw men and insulting any who disagree with him.
On another note, I am all for the EU, we have benefited significantly from free trade and the free movement of labour. Did you know the UK was one of only three countries which allowed complete free movement of citizens of the the EU within the first year that the eastern European countries acceeded?
Further integration with the EU needs to be explored, I am of the opinion that if we were to refuse more involvement, we would marginalise ourselves, reducing our political clout across the world. I don't think full integration would work, though fiscal union within the eurozone economies would be one way to resolve their internal imbalances.
I'm not sure what exactly 'free movement' includes, but Bulgaria and Romania have no right to work in the UK unless there is a yellow card (kind of like work permission). Even then, you're limited to 20 hours/week work. We joined in 2007, but we expect full rights on January 2014 when we will be allowed to work and stay with no restriction and no yellow card is needed either.
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On September 21 2013 06:49 darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2013 03:37 olias wrote:
Discussions on this thread would be so much more cordial without GhastlyUprising stumbling about, attacking straw men and insulting any who disagree with him.
On another note, I am all for the EU, we have benefited significantly from free trade and the free movement of labour. Did you know the UK was one of only three countries which allowed complete free movement of citizens of the the EU within the first year that the eastern European countries acceeded?
Further integration with the EU needs to be explored, I am of the opinion that if we were to refuse more involvement, we would marginalise ourselves, reducing our political clout across the world. I don't think full integration would work, though fiscal union within the eurozone economies would be one way to resolve their internal imbalances. I'm not sure what exactly 'free movement' includes, but Bulgaria and Romania have no right to work in the UK unless there is a yellow card (kind of like work permission). Even then, you're limited to 20 hours/week work. We joined in 2007, but we expect full rights on January 2014 when we will be allowed to work and stay with no restriction and no yellow card is needed either.
Good point, I meant when the countries entered in 2004.
GhastlyUprising, you accused me of being middle class and implied you were working class you moron. I cant work out if you are trolling, or have short term memory problems.
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On September 21 2013 10:01 olias wrote:
GhastlyUprising, you accused me of being middle class and implied you were working class you moron. I cant work out if you are trolling, or have short term memory problems. My point is that "lower class" is a highly derogatory way of saying "working class". You think I'm lower than you? Dream on. Our exchange in this thread has proven the opposite, with you complaining about perceived insults and then abandoning the pretence in the IMMEDIATELY subsequent post in which you call me a "moron".
This is the attitude of somebody who's fighting a losing battle and knows it.
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United Kingdom2991 Posts
As someone who would definitely call himself working class, I do not see the problem in calling me lower class instead. Most people define working or middle class by historical income, therefore I obviously have lower income than someone who I would consider to be middle class. It's not an accurate identifier anyway, as some people who earn £40k a year and live in a £200k house might call themselves middle class, while others would consider that person working class. Then when you also consider regional differences...does it really matter?
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I don't understand what business you have in this exchange in which I've repeatedly been insulted by Olias (called a "moron" in his latest post), yet he complains about my insulting other posters because I merely told the truth about the lamentable ignorance of referring to the UKIP as an "openly racist" political party.
If you're going to intervene, at least make sure you have a point that's half-defensible. "Lower classes" is an obviously derogatory phrase, clearly offensive in a charged exchange like the one we had, and there's no indication that it's "historically" just about income. If you thought for a few moments, you'd see that the historical "upper-classes" of this country were not, and are not, identified with the richest classes. In fact, if you want to talk about history, the phrase "blue blood" was quite commonplace only a century ago, and "breeding" was quite widespread only 60 years ago.
Normally I might overlook such an error. But when faced with someone with such thin skin that he throws hissy-fits over merely being accused of ignorance of the subject at hand? Not on your life.
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He's just stating the fact that you're on some self righteous trip that basically no in thread cares about or agrees with.
On September 21 2013 03:37 olias wrote:
Discussions on this thread would be so much more cordial without GhastlyUprising stumbling about, attacking straw men and insulting any who disagree with him.
Also, why is it the Blair-Brown stuff that has recently come up isn't being covered that much? I suppose the average guy wouldn't be interested?
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On September 21 2013 22:33 Zealos wrote:
He's just stating the fact that you're on some self righteous trip that basically no in thread cares about or agrees with. Well, I'm really not. Almost every single one of the insults comes from him, including violations of the rules of the forum. He has all the self-righteousness that I do, yet he is incredibly condescending on top of that.
And you're simply wrong if you're trying to say that "no one" takes the anti-immigration position in this thread.
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No one takes your position. You ironically call people Zealots for any opinion they hold that you do not, and make vast over-statements of this stupidest things. I'm pretty sure you were trying to compare the Conservative party to the Nazi party earlier, though correct me if I am wrong.
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Your position, as in not just anti immigration.
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United Kingdom2991 Posts
I have as much business in this thread as anyone else. I was not attacking you personally, I was stating that calling someone lower class is no more derogatory than calling someone working class.
I understand what the historical definitions of upper (title holders and their families), middle (professionals eg doctors, lawyers) and working classes are, but that is no longer relevant in modern society. The vast majority of people define their class by their income/job and that of their parents.
I have not read any details on the Blair/Brown thing, as I am just not interested by it. We knew that there was a power struggle between them during labour's second term and no one outside of the labour party seemed to care as that is just what politicians do.
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United Kingdom2991 Posts
On another note, I did find the sale of government owned shares in Lloyds to be very interesting.
I heavily criticized the government in April for the Help to Buy scheme as I believed that it was designed to mostly benefit the rich. However, I did not know that it was also designed to benefit Lloyds, as it had a lot to gain by keeping property values high and the share price reflects that. If the chancellor had that in mind when he set the budget then perhaps he is not the fool I thought he was. I expect the government to do what it can to keep property values rising for the next couple of years until it sells the remainder of it shares in the banks.
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You're all welcome in my thread, thanks 
Just cut down on the insults. This isn't the house of commons, this is a moderated forum
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On September 21 2013 22:58 Zealos wrote:
No one takes your position. You ironically call people Zealots for any opinion they hold that you do not, and make vast over-statements of this stupidest things. I'm pretty sure you were trying to compare the Conservative party to the Nazi party earlier, though correct me if I am wrong. Despite your posturing, you don't speak for all the posters in this thread. I think a neutral and objective reader would find that I have been called a xenophobe, a moron and much else. Compared with those charges, calling someone a zealot is quite moderate.
The tactics that you and your comrades-in-arms have resorted to merely reinforce my comments about the confirmation bias and blind, faith-based zeal of the pro-immigration party. As does the blithe hypocrisy of going on about self-righteousness when your side is playing the race card left and right.
For the sake of completeness, I'd like to note that I'm not trying to insult people by calling them zealots. I'm simply observing the truth of the factual reality of the situation when I say that open borders immigration (let alone one-way open borders immigration) is an extreme and fringe position. It's simply true that extreme free-market libertarianism has attracted millions of unquestioning adherents and has taken on many of the qualities of a dogmatic and religious cult. It's right and proper to accuse people of zealotry when they call for some of the biggest reforms ever in British politics and don't give a single reason to back it up other than a speculative theory -- which is in any case persistently contradicted by the evidence -- about competition lowering prices.
It's high time the things in the last paragraph were said and underscored. Compared with accusations of xenophobia and claims of open racism, I don't think there's a touch of self-righteousness in anything I have said here.
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On September 22 2013 01:27 GhastlyUprising wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2013 22:58 Zealos wrote:
No one takes your position. You ironically call people Zealots for any opinion they hold that you do not, and make vast over-statements of this stupidest things. I'm pretty sure you were trying to compare the Conservative party to the Nazi party earlier, though correct me if I am wrong. Despite your posturing, you don't speak for all the posters in this thread. I think a neutral and objective reader would find that I have been called a xenophobe, a moron and much else. Compared with those charges, calling someone a zealot is quite moderate. The tactics that you and your comrades-in-arms have resorted to merely reinforce my comments about the confirmation bias and blind, faith-based zeal of the pro-immigration party. As does the blithe hypocrisy of going on about self-righteousness when your side is playing the race card left and right. For the sake of completeness, I'd like to note that I'm not trying to insult people by calling them zealots. I'm simply observing the truth of the factual reality of the situation when I say that open borders immigration (let alone one-way open borders immigration) is an extreme and fringe position. It's simply true that extreme free-market libertarianism has attracted millions of unquestioning adherents and has taken on many of the qualities of a dogmatic and religious cult. It's right and proper to accuse people of zealotry when they call for some of the biggest reforms ever in British politics and don't give a single reason to back it up other than a speculative theory -- which is in any case persistently contradicted by the evidence -- about competition lowering prices. It's high time the things in the last paragraph were said. Compared with accusations of xenophobia and claims of open racism, I don't think there's a touch of self-righteousness in anything I have said here.
Everything u just said can be said about ur theories of overpopulation etc.
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Please quote me calling you lower class, in fact, quote me insulting you at all outside of the last post. It is fine to have heated argument, I am fine with that. What is so frustrating when arguing with you, is that you constantly misrepresent what the other person is saying.
E.G.
On September 21 2013 00:16 Sermokala wrote:
To be fair its far better that the UKIP is almost openly raceist and actualy talking about the bad sides of good things happening instead of the shitshow that goes on in america with normal people becoming racists by not trying to be racists.
You're simply wrong. Even that international bastion of political correctness, the Guardian, doesn't claim that the UKIP is "almost openly racist".
I suggest you refrain from making extreme statements about another country's politics when you quite clearly don't have the first clue what you're talking about.
That is such an absurd overreaction I dont really know where to begin. So are you just trolling? or what?
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On September 22 2013 01:27 GhastlyUprising wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2013 22:58 Zealos wrote:
No one takes your position. You ironically call people Zealots for any opinion they hold that you do not, and make vast over-statements of this stupidest things. I'm pretty sure you were trying to compare the Conservative party to the Nazi party earlier, though correct me if I am wrong. Despite your posturing, you don't speak for all the posters in this thread. I think a neutral and objective reader would find that I have been called a xenophobe, a moron and much else. Compared with those charges, calling someone a zealot is quite moderate. The tactics that you and your comrades-in-arms have resorted to merely reinforce my comments about the confirmation bias and blind, faith-based zeal of the pro-immigration party. As does the blithe hypocrisy of going on about self-righteousness when your side is playing the race card left and right. For the sake of completeness, I'd like to note that I'm not trying to insult people by calling them zealots. I'm simply observing the truth of the factual reality of the situation when I say that open borders immigration (let alone one-way open borders immigration) is an extreme and fringe position. It's simply true that extreme free-market libertarianism has attracted millions of unquestioning adherents and has taken on many of the qualities of a dogmatic and religious cult. It's right and proper to accuse people of zealotry when they call for some of the biggest reforms ever in British politics and don't give a single reason to back it up other than a speculative theory -- which is in any case persistently contradicted by the evidence -- about competition lowering prices. It's high time the things in the last paragraph were said and underscored. Compared with accusations of xenophobia and claims of open racism, I don't think there's a touch of self-righteousness in anything I have said here.
Can I ask you to back up your accusations of me that I am pro-immigration in any way with some kind of substance please?
I know it's hard for you, but just try to answer my question please.
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+ Show Spoiler +On September 22 2013 01:41 olias wrote:
Please quote me calling you lower class, in fact, quote me insulting you at all outside of the last post. It is fine to have heated argument, I am fine with that. What is so frustrating when arguing with you, is that you constantly misrepresent what the other person is saying.
E.G.
On September 21 2013 00:16 Sermokala wrote:
To be fair its far better that the UKIP is almost openly raceist and actualy talking about the bad sides of good things happening instead of the shitshow that goes on in america with normal people becoming racists by not trying to be racists.
You're simply wrong. Even that international bastion of political correctness, the Guardian, doesn't claim that the UKIP is "almost openly racist".
I suggest you refrain from making extreme statements about another country's politics when you quite clearly don't have the first clue what you're talking about.
That is such an absurd overreaction I dont really know where to begin. So are you just trolling? or what?
He's come up with a few real choice quotes. Here are my favourites:
That is the opinion of a zealot who would take us back to the conditions of the 19th century.
I suggest you refrain from making extreme statements about another country's politics when you quite clearly don't have the first clue what you're talking about.
I'll not be lectured on morality by someone who apparently glorifies anarchy more than the most fringe of Tea Party fanatics.
For those of us who don't have wet dreams about the future described by Blade Runner, the fact that there's room for more buildings has NOTHING to do with whether an increased population makes for a sensible policy.
You might not have a stake in this, probably being from a middle class background like most of the open borders brigade and expecting a middle class job in a sector where there aren't that many immigrants
As opposed to somebody who makes Glenn Beck look like a moderate...
The proponents of immigration here are not Marxists. For the most part they're the exact opposite: laissez-faire libertarians who embrace waste and unequal distribution of resources.
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On September 22 2013 01:41 olias wrote:
Please quote me calling you lower class, in fact, quote me insulting you at all outside of the last post. As per your request:
On September 14 2013 04:51 olias wrote:
You are right, I was brought up in the middle class, I also studied labour economics for three years, but of course the experience of living in the lower classes in one small part of the country trumps all analysis all the time right? I mean you have actual stories! I made the valid point that middle class people often lack the life experience to immediately see the significance of inviting hundreds of thousands more immigrants at a time when jobs are scarce and social housing is already full to capacity. It's not just knowledge of statistics that counts; it's also interpretation of statistics. You responded with condescension and one of the most shameless strawmen I've seen in a while. Nowhere did I say that the only evidence is "experience of living in the lower classes". I just think it helps to gain an insight into which data is significant and what the meaning is behind the figures.
On September 22 2013 01:41 olias wrote:
What is so frustrating when arguing with you, is that you constantly misrepresent what the other person is saying. Well, as we've already seen...strawmen abound in your posts.
On September 22 2013 01:41 olias wrote:
That is such an absurd overreaction I dont really know where to begin. So are you just trolling? or what? Actually, it's quite a proportionate and measured comment in response to almost a page of completely substance-free, ad hominem attacks. Better to write a good post and leave it to stand than derail the thread with endless back-and-forth
This will be my last post on the subject. Feel free to make as many strawmen as you like. Knock yourself out. Have a strawman salad.
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On September 22 2013 02:17 Zealos wrote:
He's come up with a few real choice quotes. Here are my favourites: As opposed to dozens of comments in which I've been called things such as a "moron", an "idiot", a "xenophobe", someone from the "lower classes" with no education beyond "stories", "so far up your own arse its unbelievable" (that's from you), someone who has "no idea what he's talking about on either the environment or economy" (against from you -- and with not a single argument given to back it up), and indirectly accused of being "almost openly racist" because I support roughly the same immigration policies as the UKIP.
I won't provide full quotes as I've had enough of this nonsense.
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On September 22 2013 02:47 GhastlyUprising wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 02:17 Zealos wrote:
He's come up with a few real choice quotes. Here are my favourites: As opposed to dozens of comments in which I've been called things such as a "moron", an "idiot", a "xenophobe", someone from the "lower classes" with no education beyond "stories", "so far up your own arse its unbelievable" (that's from you), someone who has "no idea what he's talking about on either the environment or economy" (against from you -- and with not a single argument given to back it up), and indirectly accused of being "almost openly racist" because I support roughly the same immigration policies as the UKIP. I won't provide full quotes as I've had enough of this nonsense.
Well, the first 2 are as a result of the gems you've been coming up with. 3rd one is dumb, the lower classes is irrelevant. No one has mentioned your education, merely that all you are coming up with for arguments are stories. I stand by my statement, and 2nd is based on the fact, once again, that all you come up with are stories and/or anecdotal evidence. You weren't accused of being racist, UKIP was.
Oh, and:On September 22 2013 02:15 Zealos wrote:
Can I ask you to back up your accusations of me that I am pro-immigration in any way with some kind of substance please?
I know it's hard for you, but just try to answer my question please.
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