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On November 03 2016 22:20 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
So Theresa May's entire plan was to get the EU to enact Article 50 so she an others would not have to vote on and be on the record?
Seems like a pretty stupid idea.
I don't think her strategy was thought out at all, she's repeatedly made short-sighted moves. Her decision to trigger A50 on a set timeline is completely ignorant of any German & French electoral timelines next year, and the implications on their negotiating stances with respect to the UK.
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On November 03 2016 22:24 MyLovelyLurker wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2016 21:46 bardtown wrote:On November 03 2016 21:35 Laurens wrote:On November 03 2016 21:27 bardtown wrote:
Doubt it will make any difference at all. All May has to do is go into the debate, say next to nothing of her plans and instead make it about either supporting or blocking the people's decision. Wouldn't even be surprised if Corbyn whips Labour into backing triggering of A50. A very significant majority of constituencies (roughly 420 of 570 in England/Wales and over 2:1 UK level) voted to Leave, so even if every MP with a Remain constituency dissents, it won't be enough.
More likely this will become a party political exercise. Could cause the Tories some issues if they have significant dissent.
If it actually gets blocked, there will be real outrage. Like Mythical just edited in his post, Parliament will presumably want to see a proper leaving strategy before voting on the issue. Saying next to nothing about her plans won't be the way to get their votes lol. The argument of "the people voted Brexit" falls flat on its face if Brexit can mean several very different things, and it's unclear which the people voted for. Brexit = leaving the EU = Article 50. Not complicated. You can't negotiate a deal between Labour and the Tories - they would only ever agree on a deal that the EU would never accept in the first place. The deal that comes out of the Article 50 process is decided between the UK government and the EU. Yes complicated. What, if anything, did the people say about EEA access ?
Not complicated. Stop intentionally missing the point. The question on the paper was 'Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?' 52% of people voted 'Leave the European Union'. That means triggering Article 50.
What happens beyond that is up for debate.
That itself is not up for debate, and is not contingent on addressing differences on what should happen afterwards. No guarantees about what happens afterwards can be made, anyway. It is entirely dependent on the negotiations, and making a guarantee would cripple the UK's negotiating position. So incredibly obvious.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Which is why this whole thing is stupid. It's just a clear block by the SNP. Labour probably dont mind to much but want to be seen as being active and then saying "well we made sure this happened" in a bill. It will pass, we will leave but now we have to wait 6-12-18 months maybe even years before it is activated now which is im sure extremely bad?
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On November 03 2016 22:33 Pandemona wrote:
Which is why this whole thing is stupid. It's just a clear block by the SNP. Labour probably dont mind to much but want to be seen as being active and then saying "well we made sure this happened" in a bill. It will pass, we will leave but now we have to wait 6-12-18 months maybe even years before it is activated now which is im sure extremely bad?
Government say they're still aiming for the same timeline, at least, but it will depend on Lords not blocking it. If they do it will mean a real mess and likely a general election.
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On November 03 2016 22:29 bardtown wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2016 22:24 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On November 03 2016 21:46 bardtown wrote:On November 03 2016 21:35 Laurens wrote:On November 03 2016 21:27 bardtown wrote:
Doubt it will make any difference at all. All May has to do is go into the debate, say next to nothing of her plans and instead make it about either supporting or blocking the people's decision. Wouldn't even be surprised if Corbyn whips Labour into backing triggering of A50. A very significant majority of constituencies (roughly 420 of 570 in England/Wales and over 2:1 UK level) voted to Leave, so even if every MP with a Remain constituency dissents, it won't be enough.
More likely this will become a party political exercise. Could cause the Tories some issues if they have significant dissent.
If it actually gets blocked, there will be real outrage. Like Mythical just edited in his post, Parliament will presumably want to see a proper leaving strategy before voting on the issue. Saying next to nothing about her plans won't be the way to get their votes lol. The argument of "the people voted Brexit" falls flat on its face if Brexit can mean several very different things, and it's unclear which the people voted for. Brexit = leaving the EU = Article 50. Not complicated. You can't negotiate a deal between Labour and the Tories - they would only ever agree on a deal that the EU would never accept in the first place. The deal that comes out of the Article 50 process is decided between the UK government and the EU. Yes complicated. What, if anything, did the people say about EEA access ? Not complicated. Stop intentionally missing the point. The question on the paper was 'Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?' 52% of people voted 'Leave the European Union'. That means triggering Article 50. What happens beyond that is up for debate. That itself is not up for debate, and is not contingent on addressing differences on what should happen afterwards. No guarantees about what happens afterwards can be made, anyway. It is entirely dependent on the negotiations, and making a guarantee would cripple the UK's negotiating position. So incredibly obvious.
Thank you, Captain Obvious. 'Triggering A50' means exactly zilch without context. May has full latitude to go wide spectrum between full independent replication of EU laws and symbolic separation complete with cake and afternoon tea, or walk into negotiations with her middle finger in the air. In the absence of information from vox populi we can only assume. It's all up to her and it this morning's court decision shows it shouldn't be.
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On November 03 2016 22:38 MyLovelyLurker wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2016 22:29 bardtown wrote:On November 03 2016 22:24 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On November 03 2016 21:46 bardtown wrote:On November 03 2016 21:35 Laurens wrote:On November 03 2016 21:27 bardtown wrote:
Doubt it will make any difference at all. All May has to do is go into the debate, say next to nothing of her plans and instead make it about either supporting or blocking the people's decision. Wouldn't even be surprised if Corbyn whips Labour into backing triggering of A50. A very significant majority of constituencies (roughly 420 of 570 in England/Wales and over 2:1 UK level) voted to Leave, so even if every MP with a Remain constituency dissents, it won't be enough.
More likely this will become a party political exercise. Could cause the Tories some issues if they have significant dissent.
If it actually gets blocked, there will be real outrage. Like Mythical just edited in his post, Parliament will presumably want to see a proper leaving strategy before voting on the issue. Saying next to nothing about her plans won't be the way to get their votes lol. The argument of "the people voted Brexit" falls flat on its face if Brexit can mean several very different things, and it's unclear which the people voted for. Brexit = leaving the EU = Article 50. Not complicated. You can't negotiate a deal between Labour and the Tories - they would only ever agree on a deal that the EU would never accept in the first place. The deal that comes out of the Article 50 process is decided between the UK government and the EU. Yes complicated. What, if anything, did the people say about EEA access ? Not complicated. Stop intentionally missing the point. The question on the paper was 'Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?' 52% of people voted 'Leave the European Union'. That means triggering Article 50. What happens beyond that is up for debate. That itself is not up for debate, and is not contingent on addressing differences on what should happen afterwards. No guarantees about what happens afterwards can be made, anyway. It is entirely dependent on the negotiations, and making a guarantee would cripple the UK's negotiating position. So incredibly obvious. Thank you, Captain Obvious. 'Triggering A50' means exactly zilch without context. May has full latitude to go wide spectrum between full independent replication of EU laws and symbolic separation complete with cake and afternoon tea, or walk into negotiations with her middle finger in the air. In the absence of information from vox populi we can only assume. It's all up to her and it this morning's court decision shows it shouldn't be.
Do you understand what a government is for?
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On November 03 2016 22:33 Pandemona wrote:
Which is why this whole thing is stupid. It's just a clear block by the SNP. Labour probably dont mind to much but want to be seen as being active and then saying "well we made sure this happened" in a bill. It will pass, we will leave but now we have to wait 6-12-18 months maybe even years before it is activated now which is im sure extremely bad?
Canada negotiations are 9 years and counting. The irony of this all is if Brexiters thought Europe was bad whilst being in, they certainly will love what a 17 state vetocracy has to offer to a country that wants out.
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In regards to the EEA; the current countries do not particularilly want the UK in the EEA. They have a history of blocking legislation and acting completely in their own self-interest. And for once they actually would be the highest economic power within that group (instead of 3rd) so would cause problems wherever things looked less favourable for them. Plus this of course would mean paying money into the EU and accepting freedom of movement all without a vote within the EU.
I wonder if May actually wanted this to go through parliament, now the torries can blame whatever negative deal they eventually receive on the entire parliament and not just their government.
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On November 03 2016 22:29 bardtown wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2016 22:24 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On November 03 2016 21:46 bardtown wrote:On November 03 2016 21:35 Laurens wrote:On November 03 2016 21:27 bardtown wrote:
Doubt it will make any difference at all. All May has to do is go into the debate, say next to nothing of her plans and instead make it about either supporting or blocking the people's decision. Wouldn't even be surprised if Corbyn whips Labour into backing triggering of A50. A very significant majority of constituencies (roughly 420 of 570 in England/Wales and over 2:1 UK level) voted to Leave, so even if every MP with a Remain constituency dissents, it won't be enough.
More likely this will become a party political exercise. Could cause the Tories some issues if they have significant dissent.
If it actually gets blocked, there will be real outrage. Like Mythical just edited in his post, Parliament will presumably want to see a proper leaving strategy before voting on the issue. Saying next to nothing about her plans won't be the way to get their votes lol. The argument of "the people voted Brexit" falls flat on its face if Brexit can mean several very different things, and it's unclear which the people voted for. Brexit = leaving the EU = Article 50. Not complicated. You can't negotiate a deal between Labour and the Tories - they would only ever agree on a deal that the EU would never accept in the first place. The deal that comes out of the Article 50 process is decided between the UK government and the EU. Yes complicated. What, if anything, did the people say about EEA access ? Not complicated. Stop intentionally missing the point. The question on the paper was 'Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?' 52% of people voted 'Leave the European Union'. That means triggering Article 50. What happens beyond that is up for debate. That itself is not up for debate, and is not contingent on addressing differences on what should happen afterwards. No guarantees about what happens afterwards can be made, anyway. It is entirely dependent on the negotiations, and making a guarantee would cripple the UK's negotiating position. So incredibly obvious.
I believe you are also intentionally missing a point here.
A certain majority of those 52% voted Brexit just to get rid of immigrants, which will only happen if May agrees to leave the single market.
Another part of the 52% would probably not have voted yes to the question "Should the UK leave the EU and the single market?"
But of course you know all of this and are just arguing for the sake of arguing 
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On November 03 2016 22:20 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
So Theresa May's entire plan was to get the EU to enact Article 50 so she an others would not have to vote on and be on the record?
Seems like a pretty stupid idea.
What? The EU was never going to force article 50, I don't even think they can. England has to do that itself.
Its not a stupid idea. Its literally impossible.
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On November 03 2016 22:39 bardtown wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2016 22:38 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On November 03 2016 22:29 bardtown wrote:On November 03 2016 22:24 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On November 03 2016 21:46 bardtown wrote:On November 03 2016 21:35 Laurens wrote:On November 03 2016 21:27 bardtown wrote:
Doubt it will make any difference at all. All May has to do is go into the debate, say next to nothing of her plans and instead make it about either supporting or blocking the people's decision. Wouldn't even be surprised if Corbyn whips Labour into backing triggering of A50. A very significant majority of constituencies (roughly 420 of 570 in England/Wales and over 2:1 UK level) voted to Leave, so even if every MP with a Remain constituency dissents, it won't be enough.
More likely this will become a party political exercise. Could cause the Tories some issues if they have significant dissent.
If it actually gets blocked, there will be real outrage. Like Mythical just edited in his post, Parliament will presumably want to see a proper leaving strategy before voting on the issue. Saying next to nothing about her plans won't be the way to get their votes lol. The argument of "the people voted Brexit" falls flat on its face if Brexit can mean several very different things, and it's unclear which the people voted for. Brexit = leaving the EU = Article 50. Not complicated. You can't negotiate a deal between Labour and the Tories - they would only ever agree on a deal that the EU would never accept in the first place. The deal that comes out of the Article 50 process is decided between the UK government and the EU. Yes complicated. What, if anything, did the people say about EEA access ? Not complicated. Stop intentionally missing the point. The question on the paper was 'Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?' 52% of people voted 'Leave the European Union'. That means triggering Article 50. What happens beyond that is up for debate. That itself is not up for debate, and is not contingent on addressing differences on what should happen afterwards. No guarantees about what happens afterwards can be made, anyway. It is entirely dependent on the negotiations, and making a guarantee would cripple the UK's negotiating position. So incredibly obvious. Thank you, Captain Obvious. 'Triggering A50' means exactly zilch without context. May has full latitude to go wide spectrum between full independent replication of EU laws and symbolic separation complete with cake and afternoon tea, or walk into negotiations with her middle finger in the air. In the absence of information from vox populi we can only assume. It's all up to her and it this morning's court decision shows it shouldn't be. Do you understand what a government is for?
I choose 'not unilaterally stripping its citizen of the fundamental rights that were granted to them by the prior 1972 European Communities Act' for $100, Alex.
( Keep it up on the tone btw, you're sounding increasingly like Ian Foot ! )
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On November 03 2016 22:44 Laurens wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2016 22:29 bardtown wrote:On November 03 2016 22:24 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On November 03 2016 21:46 bardtown wrote:On November 03 2016 21:35 Laurens wrote:On November 03 2016 21:27 bardtown wrote:
Doubt it will make any difference at all. All May has to do is go into the debate, say next to nothing of her plans and instead make it about either supporting or blocking the people's decision. Wouldn't even be surprised if Corbyn whips Labour into backing triggering of A50. A very significant majority of constituencies (roughly 420 of 570 in England/Wales and over 2:1 UK level) voted to Leave, so even if every MP with a Remain constituency dissents, it won't be enough.
More likely this will become a party political exercise. Could cause the Tories some issues if they have significant dissent.
If it actually gets blocked, there will be real outrage. Like Mythical just edited in his post, Parliament will presumably want to see a proper leaving strategy before voting on the issue. Saying next to nothing about her plans won't be the way to get their votes lol. The argument of "the people voted Brexit" falls flat on its face if Brexit can mean several very different things, and it's unclear which the people voted for. Brexit = leaving the EU = Article 50. Not complicated. You can't negotiate a deal between Labour and the Tories - they would only ever agree on a deal that the EU would never accept in the first place. The deal that comes out of the Article 50 process is decided between the UK government and the EU. Yes complicated. What, if anything, did the people say about EEA access ? Not complicated. Stop intentionally missing the point. The question on the paper was 'Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?' 52% of people voted 'Leave the European Union'. That means triggering Article 50. What happens beyond that is up for debate. That itself is not up for debate, and is not contingent on addressing differences on what should happen afterwards. No guarantees about what happens afterwards can be made, anyway. It is entirely dependent on the negotiations, and making a guarantee would cripple the UK's negotiating position. So incredibly obvious. I believe you are also intentionally missing a point here. A certain majority of those 52% voted Brexit just to get rid of immigrants, which will only happen if May agrees to leave the single market. Another part of the 52% would probably not have voted yes to the question "Should the UK leave the EU and the single market?" But of course you know all of this and are just arguing for the sake of arguing
a) conjecture, b) irrelevant.
You do not get to dismiss their answers to the question on the paper based on their supposed motives according to you. The question was explicit. Their answer was explicit.
You're talking about what comes after Article 50. I trust MPs to make this distinction and vote for A50.
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On November 03 2016 22:45 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2016 22:20 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
So Theresa May's entire plan was to get the EU to enact Article 50 so she an others would not have to vote on and be on the record?
Seems like a pretty stupid idea. What? The EU was never going to force article 50, I don't even think they can. England has to do that itself. Its not a stupid idea. Its literally impossible.
Then why didn't she call for a vote on Article 50 as soon as she was in power? It shouldn't be such a big deal but here she is with her and her Government seeing this decision as bad news for them.
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On November 03 2016 22:38 MyLovelyLurker wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2016 22:29 bardtown wrote:On November 03 2016 22:24 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On November 03 2016 21:46 bardtown wrote:On November 03 2016 21:35 Laurens wrote:On November 03 2016 21:27 bardtown wrote:
Doubt it will make any difference at all. All May has to do is go into the debate, say next to nothing of her plans and instead make it about either supporting or blocking the people's decision. Wouldn't even be surprised if Corbyn whips Labour into backing triggering of A50. A very significant majority of constituencies (roughly 420 of 570 in England/Wales and over 2:1 UK level) voted to Leave, so even if every MP with a Remain constituency dissents, it won't be enough.
More likely this will become a party political exercise. Could cause the Tories some issues if they have significant dissent.
If it actually gets blocked, there will be real outrage. Like Mythical just edited in his post, Parliament will presumably want to see a proper leaving strategy before voting on the issue. Saying next to nothing about her plans won't be the way to get their votes lol. The argument of "the people voted Brexit" falls flat on its face if Brexit can mean several very different things, and it's unclear which the people voted for. Brexit = leaving the EU = Article 50. Not complicated. You can't negotiate a deal between Labour and the Tories - they would only ever agree on a deal that the EU would never accept in the first place. The deal that comes out of the Article 50 process is decided between the UK government and the EU. Yes complicated. What, if anything, did the people say about EEA access ? Not complicated. Stop intentionally missing the point. The question on the paper was 'Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?' 52% of people voted 'Leave the European Union'. That means triggering Article 50. What happens beyond that is up for debate. That itself is not up for debate, and is not contingent on addressing differences on what should happen afterwards. No guarantees about what happens afterwards can be made, anyway. It is entirely dependent on the negotiations, and making a guarantee would cripple the UK's negotiating position. So incredibly obvious. Thank you, Captain Obvious. 'Triggering A50' means exactly zilch without context. May has full latitude to go wide spectrum between full independent replication of EU laws and symbolic separation complete with cake and afternoon tea, or walk into negotiations with her middle finger in the air. In the absence of information from vox populi we can only assume. It's all up to her and it this morning's court decision shows it shouldn't be.
Its not up to parliament either since it entirely depends on the negotiations and what the EU is willing to offer the UK.
The only certainly in the entire process is that 2 years after article 50 you are out of the EU (barring a unanimous vote by all EU states to continue negotiations)
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On November 03 2016 22:44 MyTHicaL wrote:
In regards to the EEA; the current countries do not particularilly want the UK in the EEA. They have a history of blocking legislation and acting completely in their own self-interest. And for once they actually would be the highest economic power within that group (instead of 3rd) so would cause problems wherever things looked less favourable for them. Plus this of course would mean paying money into the EU and accepting freedom of movement all without a vote within the EU.
I wonder if May actually wanted this to go through parliament, now the torries can blame whatever negative deal they eventually receive on the entire parliament and not just their government.
Looking fwd to Slovakia/Slovenia vetoing A50 trade deals in 3...2...1...
www.bbc.co.uk
Poetic justice though.
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On November 03 2016 22:49 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2016 22:45 Gorsameth wrote:On November 03 2016 22:20 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
So Theresa May's entire plan was to get the EU to enact Article 50 so she an others would not have to vote on and be on the record?
Seems like a pretty stupid idea. What? The EU was never going to force article 50, I don't even think they can. England has to do that itself. Its not a stupid idea. Its literally impossible. Then why didn't she call for a vote on Article 50 as soon as she was in power? It shouldn't be such a big deal but here she is with her and her Government seeing this decision as bad news for them.
Because you need to prepare for the negotiations?
And last I heard Britain didn't even have the negotiators for it since they haven't had to do trade negotiations on their own for a long time.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On November 03 2016 22:49 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2016 22:45 Gorsameth wrote:On November 03 2016 22:20 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
So Theresa May's entire plan was to get the EU to enact Article 50 so she an others would not have to vote on and be on the record?
Seems like a pretty stupid idea. What? The EU was never going to force article 50, I don't even think they can. England has to do that itself. Its not a stupid idea. Its literally impossible. Then why didn't she call for a vote on Article 50 as soon as she was in power? It shouldn't be such a big deal but here she is with her and her Government seeing this decision as bad news for them.
It's because out of the 650MPs they have no idea how many will say "no don't activate it yet" for whatever reason, SNP mps will block it because they dont want out of EU at all. Labour MPs will probably try and get some guarantee's in the leaving process of something etc etc. She could and should have power to activate it herself get the process started thus putting a clear "end date" on getting stuff organised in terms of legislation for when we are free. Now they can literally debate it for 9 years like Canada has been doing according to another user's post 
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On November 03 2016 22:51 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2016 22:49 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On November 03 2016 22:45 Gorsameth wrote:On November 03 2016 22:20 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
So Theresa May's entire plan was to get the EU to enact Article 50 so she an others would not have to vote on and be on the record?
Seems like a pretty stupid idea. What? The EU was never going to force article 50, I don't even think they can. England has to do that itself. Its not a stupid idea. Its literally impossible. Then why didn't she call for a vote on Article 50 as soon as she was in power? It shouldn't be such a big deal but here she is with her and her Government seeing this decision as bad news for them. Because you need to prepare for the negotiations? And last I heard Britain didn't even have the negotiators for it since they haven't had to do trade negotiations on their own for a long time.
So instead the Government is using it's money and time to fight court battles instead of preparing for negotiations?
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On November 03 2016 22:49 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2016 22:38 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On November 03 2016 22:29 bardtown wrote:On November 03 2016 22:24 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On November 03 2016 21:46 bardtown wrote:On November 03 2016 21:35 Laurens wrote:On November 03 2016 21:27 bardtown wrote:
Doubt it will make any difference at all. All May has to do is go into the debate, say next to nothing of her plans and instead make it about either supporting or blocking the people's decision. Wouldn't even be surprised if Corbyn whips Labour into backing triggering of A50. A very significant majority of constituencies (roughly 420 of 570 in England/Wales and over 2:1 UK level) voted to Leave, so even if every MP with a Remain constituency dissents, it won't be enough.
More likely this will become a party political exercise. Could cause the Tories some issues if they have significant dissent.
If it actually gets blocked, there will be real outrage. Like Mythical just edited in his post, Parliament will presumably want to see a proper leaving strategy before voting on the issue. Saying next to nothing about her plans won't be the way to get their votes lol. The argument of "the people voted Brexit" falls flat on its face if Brexit can mean several very different things, and it's unclear which the people voted for. Brexit = leaving the EU = Article 50. Not complicated. You can't negotiate a deal between Labour and the Tories - they would only ever agree on a deal that the EU would never accept in the first place. The deal that comes out of the Article 50 process is decided between the UK government and the EU. Yes complicated. What, if anything, did the people say about EEA access ? Not complicated. Stop intentionally missing the point. The question on the paper was 'Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?' 52% of people voted 'Leave the European Union'. That means triggering Article 50. What happens beyond that is up for debate. That itself is not up for debate, and is not contingent on addressing differences on what should happen afterwards. No guarantees about what happens afterwards can be made, anyway. It is entirely dependent on the negotiations, and making a guarantee would cripple the UK's negotiating position. So incredibly obvious. Thank you, Captain Obvious. 'Triggering A50' means exactly zilch without context. May has full latitude to go wide spectrum between full independent replication of EU laws and symbolic separation complete with cake and afternoon tea, or walk into negotiations with her middle finger in the air. In the absence of information from vox populi we can only assume. It's all up to her and it this morning's court decision shows it shouldn't be. Its not up to parliament either since it entirely depends on the negotiations and what the EU is willing to offer the UK. The only certainly in the entire process is that 2 years after article 50 you are out of the EU (barring a unanimous vote by all EU states to continue negotiations)
It is exactly up to both institutions together indeed, which is why there needs to be a debate on the terms that should be put forth.
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On November 03 2016 22:55 MyLovelyLurker wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2016 22:49 Gorsameth wrote:On November 03 2016 22:38 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On November 03 2016 22:29 bardtown wrote:On November 03 2016 22:24 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On November 03 2016 21:46 bardtown wrote:On November 03 2016 21:35 Laurens wrote:On November 03 2016 21:27 bardtown wrote:
Doubt it will make any difference at all. All May has to do is go into the debate, say next to nothing of her plans and instead make it about either supporting or blocking the people's decision. Wouldn't even be surprised if Corbyn whips Labour into backing triggering of A50. A very significant majority of constituencies (roughly 420 of 570 in England/Wales and over 2:1 UK level) voted to Leave, so even if every MP with a Remain constituency dissents, it won't be enough.
More likely this will become a party political exercise. Could cause the Tories some issues if they have significant dissent.
If it actually gets blocked, there will be real outrage. Like Mythical just edited in his post, Parliament will presumably want to see a proper leaving strategy before voting on the issue. Saying next to nothing about her plans won't be the way to get their votes lol. The argument of "the people voted Brexit" falls flat on its face if Brexit can mean several very different things, and it's unclear which the people voted for. Brexit = leaving the EU = Article 50. Not complicated. You can't negotiate a deal between Labour and the Tories - they would only ever agree on a deal that the EU would never accept in the first place. The deal that comes out of the Article 50 process is decided between the UK government and the EU. Yes complicated. What, if anything, did the people say about EEA access ? Not complicated. Stop intentionally missing the point. The question on the paper was 'Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?' 52% of people voted 'Leave the European Union'. That means triggering Article 50. What happens beyond that is up for debate. That itself is not up for debate, and is not contingent on addressing differences on what should happen afterwards. No guarantees about what happens afterwards can be made, anyway. It is entirely dependent on the negotiations, and making a guarantee would cripple the UK's negotiating position. So incredibly obvious. Thank you, Captain Obvious. 'Triggering A50' means exactly zilch without context. May has full latitude to go wide spectrum between full independent replication of EU laws and symbolic separation complete with cake and afternoon tea, or walk into negotiations with her middle finger in the air. In the absence of information from vox populi we can only assume. It's all up to her and it this morning's court decision shows it shouldn't be. Its not up to parliament either since it entirely depends on the negotiations and what the EU is willing to offer the UK. The only certainly in the entire process is that 2 years after article 50 you are out of the EU (barring a unanimous vote by all EU states to continue negotiations) It is exactly up to both institutions together indeed, which is why there needs to be a debate on the terms that should be put forth.
What you're arguing for is already unanimously agreed upon and has nothing to do with a vote for triggering Article 50.
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EPT
