Widely considered the founder of south African Democracy. President Obama was expected to visit him this Friday but now it is unclear whether he will change his plan giving this revelation.
Pretoria, South Africa (CNN) -- Anti-apartheid icon Nelson Mandela was on life support in a Pretoria hospital late Wednesday, said an official who had been briefed in detail on his condition.
Considered the founding father of South Africa's democracy, Mandela, 94, has been hospitalized since June 8 for a recurring lung infection. Authorities have described his condition as critical since Sunday, and President Jacob Zuma said earlier Wednesday that Mandela's condition remained unchanged, South Africa's national news agency reported. In a statement issued late Tuesday, the government said Mandela's doctors "continue to do their best to ensure his recovery, well-being and comfort."
As the nation remained on edge, police barricaded the street leading to the hospital's main entrance. Well-wishers hung balloons, stuffed animals and messages of support along the wall outside his Pretoria hospital. Crowds hovering nearby sang "Where is Mandela?"
Nelson Mandela's family reportedly advised to take former South African president off life support
Doctors treating former South African President Nelson Mandela say the anti-apartheid leader is in a "permanent vegetative state" and had urged the family to discontinue his life support, according to documents obtained by Agence France-Presse.
The documents, dated June 26, say Mandela's breathing is being mechanically assisted and the Mandela family has "been advised by the medical practitioners that his life support machine should be switched off" due to the "perilous" state of his health.
"Rather than prolonging his suffering, the Mandela family is exploring this option as a very real probability," the documents say.
Doctors treating former South African President Nelson Mandela say the anti-apartheid leader is in a "permanent vegetative state" and had urged the family to discontinue his life support, according to documents obtained by Agence France-Presse.
The documents, dated June 26, say Mandela's breathing is being mechanically assisted and the Mandela family has "been advised by the medical practitioners that his life support machine should be switched off" due to the "perilous" state of his health.
"Rather than prolonging his suffering, the Mandela family is exploring this option as a very real probability," the documents say.
Between Nelson Mandelas health problems and Oscar Pistorius legal woes South Africa has been getting more news coverage than its had in 20 years. Not sure if its a good or bad thing.
Jk, but there are a lot of people who can actually say that. I'll have a drink for Mandela tonight while I celebrate the fourth. Sleep well Mr. Nelly Mandelly.
He shouldn't have been placed on life support. Elderly people should be allowed to die peacefully and comfortably at a doctor's discretion rather than be placed on a life-support machine indefinitely until the family guiltily decides to switch it off.
On July 05 2013 11:55 LilClinkin wrote: He shouldn't have been placed on life support. Elderly people should be allowed to die peacefully and comfortably at a doctor's discretion rather than be placed on a life-support machine indefinitely until the family guiltily decides to switch it off.
Well, he was ill, he's supposedly not in a vegetative state so who knows, he is supposed to be getting slightly better, but its just a matter of time i guess
I don't like how people constantly pray for his survival as if their own lives depended on it...I wish they would just leave him in peace. He's obviously really old and is on his death bed, he's not going to last much longer so stop prolonging the inevitable! Nelson Mandela's life is not inextricably bound to yours, yes he did some important things but give him a rest.
People should be focusing more on honouring his legacy than praying to god that he'll live for five more years to extreme old age where he doesn't recognize anyone and seems to need regular hospital visits to stay alive.
On July 05 2013 12:08 Shiragaku wrote: Bleh...some people in my hometown are also celebrating the demise of the man who supposedly brought "White Genocide" to South Africa...
At one point he was a terrorist of sorts. I'm sorry I'm using wikipedia for this . There are a lot of people who think one of three things as far as I've learned about the situation.
Either they think that the man was bad for the country, led it into a revolution that ended up overthrowing a majority of the white owned and operated businesses, forced an "africanization" that was unwanted by the dominant white class that threw the country into not only serious social turmoil, but also economic turmoil. Usually these people were from that era of dominant white social class rule. They dislike him because of his original violence and the fact that what he did put the country into the throes of chaos only to have it luckily brought back by a kind of cult-following, and that these throes put the country back economically; most of these tend to be old white people who grew up in apartheid.
Or they think that the man was bad for the people, because he created a nation that was divided by hatred rather than one divided by race. South Africa has enormous crime rates, a lot of urbanized black poverty, and other issues caused by forced integration. The same issues that plague the U.S., but without the amount of government/social currency to spend on it (think The Great Society and books like The Other America). They think that the man took the right thing and did it so quickly that it turned their society into more of a colloidal fluid than a cohesive one; lumps floating in and out of solution while the general liquid rejects these lumps because they don't mesh naturally. These people tend to be either ultra-conservative or attribute the flaws of society to Mandela.
Or they think that what Mandela did was domestic anti-caucasian centered terrorism that is made up for by the enormous cult-like following that has surrounded Mandela by both Blacks and Leftists. The idea that he lifted a people out of the jowls of oppression, but created a situation where de facto segregation was instituted instead of du jour; they argue that not only did he do little to change the real state of society, despite making it marginally more accepting, and in the process created a white-targeted domestic terrorism plan. These people argue that the only reason Mandela is looked so highly upon is his later more peaceful successes along with a strong association of him with salvation figures, enormous revisionism, regime apologism, social programs made to improve his image, and rigid backlash from academia concerning Mandela in a negative tone. This is a smaller group of society, but they tend to be people who find the previously said parts of Mandela's image disconcerting and tend to be either soceo-anarchic or generally anti-apologist.
This is what I've gotten. A lot of people view Mandela as they view MLK Jr. They could do no wrong. In reality, both leaders had serious down falls and society has cleaned up their image to the point they might as well be Kingdom Come, despite either doing some rather dispicable things, and/or failing miserably at important facets of their original promises to their people.
On July 05 2013 05:42 Serejai wrote: I am pretty shocked this thread has so few views and replies.
It's also kind of morbid that the man who gave South Africans their freedom is dying on the day we celebrate ours.
Not really, there isn't much to say about the situation. The man is in his mid 90's and everyone dies. It's honestly surprising that he's lived as long as he has given everything he's been through and the fact that medicine in South Africa isn't exactly top notch. That being said, he's an amazing inspiration for how much of a difference one man can make and the entire world will miss him dearly.
He was a Communist. Yeah, ending white rule in SA is a great thing, but he wasn't an "amazing man." You can't just ignore a huge part of him and his administration.
On July 05 2013 13:07 Mansef wrote: He was a Communist. Yeah, ending white rule in SA is a great thing, but he wasn't an "amazing man." You can't just ignore a huge part of him and his administration.
Martin Luther King was an absolutely horrible person too, but we have a holiday for him. People latch onto the stuff that inspires them and gives them hope. Nothing wrong with that I suppose.
On July 05 2013 13:07 Mansef wrote: He was a Communist. Yeah, ending white rule in SA is a great thing, but he wasn't an "amazing man." You can't just ignore a huge part of him and his administration.
I didn't realize we were still in the red scare.... I mean he might have done some bad things, but you need to list these things with supportive arguments like others have, in some peoples eyes being communist is actually a key part of being an amazing man(redistributing wealth and all that)
This might be a situation of an ideal being greater than the person that holds the ideal. I don't know Mandela personally, but atleast he stood for the end of Apartheid - which is universally agreed to be a system that favored the dominant white minority.
Hitler liked dogs, but he stood for the eradication of Jews, homosexuals, Gypsies, and disabled-people.
On July 05 2013 13:07 Mansef wrote: He was a Communist. Yeah, ending white rule in SA is a great thing, but he wasn't an "amazing man." You can't just ignore a huge part of him and his administration.
I'm really curious about ur definition of an amazing man, since u seem clueless about how it hard to end a government system, especially that system belong to the ppl who own the economy and the army.
I have interesting gossip regarding this situation.
A fellow doctor from South Africa whom I work with says he has friends in the hospital in which Mr Mandella is being kept. They report the ICU in which he is located has been sectioned off from admitting any other patients, and no one is allowed to come and go to visit him besides a select few staff members. Any other patient in Mr Mandella's clinical state would have been declared unfit for life support and palliated 3 weeks ago, however Mr Mandella remains in a vegetative state on a mechanical ventilator.
Speculation as to why he has continued to be ventilated revolves around a movement by South African authorities to clean up the city prior to the influx of international delegates who will pay their respects at his funeral. Concerted efforts have been made to move homeless people off the streets, remove excess litter and waste, to repaint buildings etc. so that the city looks respectable to international media.
On July 05 2013 13:07 Mansef wrote: He was a Communist. Yeah, ending white rule in SA is a great thing, but he wasn't an "amazing man." You can't just ignore a huge part of him and his administration.
I didn't realize we were still in the red scare.... I mean he might have done some bad things, but you need to list these things with supportive arguments like others have, in some peoples eyes being communist is actually a key part of being an amazing man(redistributing wealth and all that)
Just because we're no longer in the Red Scare doesn't mean communism is okay or we should be endlessly praising a communist. For all he did, he still supported a system that is responsible for more deaths than any other ideology in the 20th Century.
On July 05 2013 13:07 Mansef wrote: He was a Communist. Yeah, ending white rule in SA is a great thing, but he wasn't an "amazing man." You can't just ignore a huge part of him and his administration.
I didn't realize we were still in the red scare.... I mean he might have done some bad things, but you need to list these things with supportive arguments like others have, in some peoples eyes being communist is actually a key part of being an amazing man(redistributing wealth and all that)
Just because we're no longer in the Red Scare doesn't mean communism is okay or we should be endlessly praising a communist. For all he did, he still supported a system that is responsible for more deaths than any other ideology in the 20th Century.
That's ridiculous and short sighted. Communism is not responsible for deaths, the people who led those countries are. Mandela is not responsible for any deaths that happened under other regimes that were branded "communist".
It's very disappointing to me that people are this short sighted. I'm not a communist by any stretch of the imagination and I think communism would lead to poverty, but to assume that communists are somehow bad people is a complete misunderstanding of the term which was tainted by bad regimes.
The principles at the core of communism are, or at least can be very noble even though it may not necessarily work in practice.
On July 05 2013 13:07 Mansef wrote: He was a Communist. Yeah, ending white rule in SA is a great thing, but he wasn't an "amazing man." You can't just ignore a huge part of him and his administration.
I didn't realize we were still in the red scare.... I mean he might have done some bad things, but you need to list these things with supportive arguments like others have, in some peoples eyes being communist is actually a key part of being an amazing man(redistributing wealth and all that)
Just because we're no longer in the Red Scare doesn't mean communism is okay or we should be endlessly praising a communist. For all he did, he still supported a system that is responsible for more deaths than any other ideology in the 20th Century.
If only they had been motivated by something more pure, like greed.
On July 05 2013 13:07 Mansef wrote: He was a Communist. Yeah, ending white rule in SA is a great thing, but he wasn't an "amazing man." You can't just ignore a huge part of him and his administration.
I didn't realize we were still in the red scare.... I mean he might have done some bad things, but you need to list these things with supportive arguments like others have, in some peoples eyes being communist is actually a key part of being an amazing man(redistributing wealth and all that)
Just because we're no longer in the Red Scare doesn't mean communism is okay or we should be endlessly praising a communist. For all he did, he still supported a system that is responsible for more deaths than any other ideology in the 20th Century.
That's ridiculous and short sighted. Communism is not responsible for deaths, the people who led those countries are. Mandela is not responsible for any deaths that happened under other regimes that were branded "communist".
It's very disappointing to me that people are this short sighted. I'm not a communist by any stretch of the imagination and I think communism would lead to poverty, but to assume that communists are somehow bad people is a complete misunderstanding of the term which was tainted by bad regimes.
The principles at the core of communism are, or at least can be very noble even though it may not necessarily work in practice.
Best just to ignore and report this guy. 51 posts, and apparently every single one involves him being and idiot and an asshole. It's actually depressing to look over...
On July 05 2013 13:07 Mansef wrote: He was a Communist. Yeah, ending white rule in SA is a great thing, but he wasn't an "amazing man." You can't just ignore a huge part of him and his administration.
I didn't realize we were still in the red scare.... I mean he might have done some bad things, but you need to list these things with supportive arguments like others have, in some peoples eyes being communist is actually a key part of being an amazing man(redistributing wealth and all that)
Just because we're no longer in the Red Scare doesn't mean communism is okay or we should be endlessly praising a communist. For all he did, he still supported a system that is responsible for more deaths than any other ideology in the 20th Century.
That's ridiculous and short sighted. Communism is not responsible for deaths, the people who led those countries are. Mandela is not responsible for any deaths that happened under other regimes that were branded "communist".
It's very disappointing to me that people are this short sighted. I'm not a communist by any stretch of the imagination and I think communism would lead to poverty, but to assume that communists are somehow bad people is a complete misunderstanding of the term which was tainted by bad regimes.
The principles at the core of communism are, or at least can be very noble even though it may not necessarily work in practice.
Best just to ignore and report this guy. 51 posts, and apparently every single one involves him being and idiot and an asshole. It's actually depressing to look over...
What's happening to Mandela kind of reminds me what happened to Alexander the Great. His close and relatives are already disputing his heritage while he dying.
Granted, it is not something uncommon, unfortunately
I never really knew that much about Nelson Mandela, but seems he did a lot to benefit South Africa and bring democracy to it. It was his time to go though. RIP, even though you technically aren't dead yet.
On July 05 2013 05:42 Serejai wrote: I am pretty shocked this thread has so few views and replies.
It's also kind of morbid that the man who gave South Africans their freedom is dying on the day we celebrate ours.
I know that's from a few months ago, but it was just established lol. I'm sure this thread will be more popular than Paul Walker soon. Hopefully, anyways.
On July 05 2013 05:42 Serejai wrote: I am pretty shocked this thread has so few views and replies.
It's also kind of morbid that the man who gave South Africans their freedom is dying on the day we celebrate ours.
I know that's from a few months ago, but it was just established lol. I'm sure this thread will be more popular than Paul Walker soon. Hopefully, anyways.
RIP NM <3
I swear if the Paul Walker thread ends up with more attention than this I will have lost all faith in society.
RIP to a man who founded a terrorist organization that bombed civilians, set up land mines on rural roads, and tortured and executed those they captured.
On July 05 2013 05:42 Serejai wrote: I am pretty shocked this thread has so few views and replies.
It's also kind of morbid that the man who gave South Africans their freedom is dying on the day we celebrate ours.
I know that's from a few months ago, but it was just established lol. I'm sure this thread will be more popular than Paul Walker soon. Hopefully, anyways.
RIP NM <3
I swear if the Paul Walker thread ends up with more attention than this I will have lost all faith in society.
I'm surprised this wasn't on twitter/instagram/facebook.
On December 06 2013 07:06 LaM wrote: RIP to a man who founded a terrorist organization that bombed civilians, set up land mines on rural roads, and tortured and executed those they captured.
Even as a person who benefited from the old apartheid "regime" on a social and economic level, I find that comment really harsh and one sided.
On July 05 2013 05:42 Serejai wrote: I am pretty shocked this thread has so few views and replies.
It's also kind of morbid that the man who gave South Africans their freedom is dying on the day we celebrate ours.
I know that's from a few months ago, but it was just established lol. I'm sure this thread will be more popular than Paul Walker soon. Hopefully, anyways.
RIP NM <3
I swear if the Paul Walker thread ends up with more attention than this I will have lost all faith in society.
I'm surprised this wasn't on twitter/instagram/facebook.
It is now. It started going public only a few minutes ago! Spreading through social media like wildfire atm.
On December 06 2013 07:06 LaM wrote: RIP to a man who founded a terrorist organization that bombed civilians, set up land mines on rural roads, and tortured and executed those they captured.
Even as a person who benefited from the old apartheid "regime" on a social and economic level, I find that comment really harsh and one sided.
Revolution fighters are rarely saints, but Mandela's name will be written in the annals of history for things he's accomplished.
On July 05 2013 05:42 Serejai wrote: I am pretty shocked this thread has so few views and replies.
It's also kind of morbid that the man who gave South Africans their freedom is dying on the day we celebrate ours.
I know that's from a few months ago, but it was just established lol. I'm sure this thread will be more popular than Paul Walker soon. Hopefully, anyways.
RIP NM <3
I swear if the Paul Walker thread ends up with more attention than this I will have lost all faith in society.
It would have been kind of cool if Mandela went out in a blaze of glory a la Porsche too.
Baller way to go out right there. Vinelson Mandiesel.
On December 06 2013 07:06 LaM wrote: RIP to a man who founded a terrorist organization that bombed civilians, set up land mines on rural roads, and tortured and executed those they captured.
Even as a person who benefited from the old apartheid "regime" on a social and economic level, I find that comment really harsh and one sided.
Revolution fighters are rarely saints, but Mandela's name will be written in the anals of history for things he's accomplished.
RIP Mandela. Such a force for peace with a big heart, he won over many of his international opponents. Very willing to bridge the aisle. Quoting from Thatcher,
"I held talks and had lunch at Downing Street with the other main player in South African politics, Nelson Mandela. I had seen him briefly in the spring when he had been feted by the media Left, attending a concert in Wembley in his honour, but this was the first time I really got to know him. The Left were rather offended that he was prepared to see me at all. But then he, unlike them, had a shrewd view as to what kind of pressure for his release had been more successful. I found M r Mandela supremely courteous, with a genuine nobility of bearing and -- most remarkable after all he had suffered -- without any bitterness. I warmed to him"
Whatever may be said of his politics after being released, he was a noble man of great stature and exactly the one needed in South Africa to transition beyond the ending of apartheid without great bloodshed.
On December 06 2013 07:23 Danglars wrote: RIP Mandela. Such a force for peace with a big heart, he won over many of his international opponents. Very willing to bridge the aisle. Quoting from Thatcher,
"I held talks and had lunch at Downing Street with the other main player in South African politics, Nelson Mandela. I had seen him briefly in the spring when he had been feted by the media Left, attending a concert in Wembley in his honour, but this was the first time I really got to know him. The Left were rather offended that he was prepared to see me at all. But then he, unlike them, had a shrewd view as to what kind of pressure for his release had been more successful. I found M r Mandela supremely courteous, with a genuine nobility of bearing and -- most remarkable after all he had suffered -- without any bitterness. I warmed to him"
Whatever may be said of his politics after being released, he was a noble man of great stature and exactly the one needed in South Africa to transition beyond the ending of apartheid without great bloodshed.
Seriously, quoting Tatcher here. You're like the best troll liquid could ever dream of.
On December 06 2013 07:23 Danglars wrote: RIP Mandela. Such a force for peace with a big heart, he won over many of his international opponents. Very willing to bridge the aisle. Quoting from Thatcher,
"I held talks and had lunch at Downing Street with the other main player in South African politics, Nelson Mandela. I had seen him briefly in the spring when he had been feted by the media Left, attending a concert in Wembley in his honour, but this was the first time I really got to know him. The Left were rather offended that he was prepared to see me at all. But then he, unlike them, had a shrewd view as to what kind of pressure for his release had been more successful. I found M r Mandela supremely courteous, with a genuine nobility of bearing and -- most remarkable after all he had suffered -- without any bitterness. I warmed to him"
Whatever may be said of his politics after being released, he was a noble man of great stature and exactly the one needed in South Africa to transition beyond the ending of apartheid without great bloodshed.
Seriously, quoting Tatcher here. You're like the best troll liquid could ever dream of.
Did you not read his post at all? He's saying Mandela won over his international opponents and then quoted Thatcher as an example of this.
I wonder what this will do to the stability of South Africa. Many felt Mandela was the clue that made white and black people able to live side by side. Farm attacks are probably gonna skyrocket.
On December 06 2013 07:23 Danglars wrote: RIP Mandela. Such a force for peace with a big heart, he won over many of his international opponents. Very willing to bridge the aisle. Quoting from Thatcher,
"I held talks and had lunch at Downing Street with the other main player in South African politics, Nelson Mandela. I had seen him briefly in the spring when he had been feted by the media Left, attending a concert in Wembley in his honour, but this was the first time I really got to know him. The Left were rather offended that he was prepared to see me at all. But then he, unlike them, had a shrewd view as to what kind of pressure for his release had been more successful. I found M r Mandela supremely courteous, with a genuine nobility of bearing and -- most remarkable after all he had suffered -- without any bitterness. I warmed to him"
Whatever may be said of his politics after being released, he was a noble man of great stature and exactly the one needed in South Africa to transition beyond the ending of apartheid without great bloodshed.
Seriously, quoting Tatcher here. You're like the best troll liquid could ever dream of.
Did you not read his post at all? He's saying Mandela won over his international opponents and then quoted Thatcher as an example of this.
Seriously ? You had to find a quote from Tatcher to show the value of Mandela ? Don't you think there are less controversal person to quote ? And considering it's Danglars who quoted, I was just amazed at his ability to always quote one of his favored ideological figure even in such a thread.
Nelson Mandela should be more venerated than he is. Perhaps many people who are important, who are alive or dead, should be more venerated. People like him don't really exist anymore. What personal will he had by sacrificing all those years in prison in the name of a cause. Can you imagine what toll that takes on the ordinary person? No, I don't think very many people can.
This probably isn't a good time to ask, but I'm seeing lots of comments about it. Was this guy in any way a terrorist? I love him, and believe he is one the greatest people to live, but was he in some way involved in terrorist activity?
Sorry if this is too disrespectful, I'll remove it if that is the case.
On December 06 2013 10:01 NarAliya wrote: Seriously, I don't want to hear Obama's name being mentioned in the same vein as Nelson Mandela. They were not cut from the same cloth.
May his soul rest in perfect peace.
You're the first one in the thread to mention Obama... ?
And RIP the world just lost one of the greatest men of our lifetime.
On December 06 2013 10:01 NarAliya wrote: Seriously, I don't want to hear Obama's name being mentioned in the same vein as Nelson Mandela. They were not cut from the same cloth.
May his soul rest in perfect peace.
You're the first one in the thread to mention Obama... ?
And RIP the world just lost one of the greatest men of our lifetime.
I thought I read on the first post that "president obama was going to pay his respects or something".
On December 06 2013 10:01 NarAliya wrote: Seriously, I don't want to hear Obama's name being mentioned in the same vein as Nelson Mandela. They were not cut from the same cloth.
May his soul rest in perfect peace.
Yeah Obama amd his alliies never deliberately attacked purely civilian gatherings.
On December 06 2013 09:53 Zealos wrote: This probably isn't a good time to ask, but I'm seeing lots of comments about it. Was this guy in any way a terrorist? I love him, and believe he is one the greatest people to live, but was he in some way involved in terrorist activity?
Sorry if this is too disrespectful, I'll remove it if that is the case.
yes he was but mostly by the fact that he took part in the organization that then produced the terrorists rather than the terrorists directly.So before he dedicated most of his life to fixing what the apartheid had created and what the radical offshoot of what he worked for did, yes he was at least indirectly involved with terrorists, like most freedom fighters are.
Sad news. I spent a fair bit of time living in South Africa a few years back and one of the things that stuck with me is the level of reverence that virtually everyone has for the man. He really is the father of the nation, and the impact of his loss is going to be huge.
You don't even know how sad I was after seeing this.
I'm sure there are some names that I really should know and I don't, but you'd think Mandela is a name that everybody should know about. No reason to harp on people who don't, though. It could be because of a lack of education. And you can hardly blame people for having a lack of curiosity, nobody gives a fuck anymore and it's like it's completely normal.
On December 06 2013 10:01 NarAliya wrote: Seriously, I don't want to hear Obama's name being mentioned in the same vein as Nelson Mandela. They were not cut from the same cloth.
May his soul rest in perfect peace.
Yeah Obama amd his alliies never deliberately attacked purely civilian gatherings.
On December 06 2013 09:53 Zealos wrote: This probably isn't a good time to ask, but I'm seeing lots of comments about it. Was this guy in any way a terrorist? I love him, and believe he is one the greatest people to live, but was he in some way involved in terrorist activity?
Sorry if this is too disrespectful, I'll remove it if that is the case.
yes he was but mostly by the fact that he took part in the organization that then produced the terrorists rather than the terrorists directly.So before he dedicated most of his life to fixing what the apartheid had created and what the radical offshoot of what he worked for did, yes he was at least indirectly involved with terrorists, like most freedom fighters are.
you mean he attacked apartheid supporters who were financing guerrilas.and as for obama never attacking civilian meetings simply google videos of americana atrocities in iraq where 1 mil people died,most of them civilian.
You don't even know how sad I was after seeing this.
Why should it make you sad? Its natural that over time, the significance of a person's actions a long time ago diminish and become forgotten. I don't think he's entirely unknown, but certainly there's going to be some minority who haven't studied him in history class or through other means. He really hasn't been done anything significant in a few decades, and what he did do had very little relation to the US. I mean there are apparently lots of Americans who can't place Canada on a map and we take up about half of *their* continent.
One thing you have to remember is that looking at that twitter feed, it concentrates all those people into one large group, so it seems like a very large number who are totally unaware of what he did. But we don't know how many people are aware; I'm guessing the majority of the US is aware (and I guess that's a couple hundred million or so?). So really this is just a small fraction.
Possibly a better question is what meaningful purpose is there in knowing what Nelson Mandela did? It may be inspiring I'll give you that, but in terms of functional knowledge I'm not sure there is much purpose. Its not really a 'tragedy' to focus on more useful subjects than to maintain a constant working memory of all the 'heroes' and 'revolutionaries' from the past two decades.
For the sake of the thread I'll add in a rest in peace. I think he was among one of the few people who are universally respected.
Nelson Mandela Becomes First Politician To Be Missed
JOHANNESBURG—Following the death of former South African president and civil rights leader Nelson Mandela today at the age of 95, sources confirmed that the revered humanitarian has become the first politician in recorded history to actually be missed. “Today we lost not only an international hero and a symbol of the resilient human spirit, but also the very first political figure ever who people actively wish was still alive and affecting world affairs,” said political historian Wallace M. Delaney of Columbia University, adding that Mandela will long be remembered for enduring 27 years in prison in the fight against apartheid, championing equality across the globe, and standing alone as the only world leader whose passing left the international community grief-stricken and feeling a palpable void in their lives. “Certainly people have felt a sense of sorrow at the deaths of politicians in the past, but Nelson Mandela’s death is the only one on record that people everywhere unanimously agree has left the world notably worse off. I miss him, we all miss him—and that’s entirely unprecedented in the world of politics.” Delaney added that he could not predict who might be the second politician to be missed by humanity, but confirmed there were no viable candidates anywhere out there right now.
You don't even know how sad I was after seeing this.
Why should it make you sad? Its natural that over time, the significance of a person's actions a long time ago diminish and become forgotten. I don't think he's entirely unknown, but certainly there's going to be some minority who haven't studied him in history class or through other means. He really hasn't been done anything significant in a few decades, and what he did do had very little relation to the US. I mean there are apparently lots of Americans who can't place Canada on a map and we take up about half of *their* continent.
One thing you have to remember is that looking at that twitter feed, it concentrates all those people into one large group, so it seems like a very large number who are totally unaware of what he did. But we don't know how many people are aware; I'm guessing the majority of the US is aware (and I guess that's a couple hundred million or so?). So really this is just a small fraction.
Possibly a better question is what meaningful purpose is there in knowing what Nelson Mandela did? It may be inspiring I'll give you that, but in terms of functional knowledge I'm not sure there is much purpose. Its not really a 'tragedy' to focus on more useful subjects than to maintain a constant working memory of all the 'heroes' and 'revolutionaries' from the past two decades.
For the sake of the thread I'll add in a rest in peace. I think he was among one of the few people who are universally respected.
It is not the fact that some folks don't know who Mandela was or what he did for South Africa, I don't blame people who perhaps didn't receive the education. It's more the fact people go on their social network asking who Mandela was instead of researching themselves. It's never been easier before to find information via the internet and the time it took them to post their stupid update, they could have atleast googled him. The laziness of people nowadays is what makes saddens so much.
On December 06 2013 12:42 perfidiusrex wrote: @radscorpion9
he was also constatly on international news websites not just history books.especially since his health deteriorated,
A lot of people don't read the news and a lot of news channels on TV rarely talk about international affairs unless they're of great relevance. And even then, news articles and bits on TV don't do justice to him. The few bits of information I've had about his life outside of class (and my own research out of curiosity) were articles which didn't quite convey the scale and importance of what he has done.
On December 06 2013 11:37 Jaaaaasper wrote: RIP to a great but flawed man.
On December 06 2013 10:01 NarAliya wrote: Seriously, I don't want to hear Obama's name being mentioned in the same vein as Nelson Mandela. They were not cut from the same cloth.
May his soul rest in perfect peace.
Yeah Obama amd his alliies never deliberately attacked purely civilian gatherings.
On December 06 2013 09:53 Zealos wrote: This probably isn't a good time to ask, but I'm seeing lots of comments about it. Was this guy in any way a terrorist? I love him, and believe he is one the greatest people to live, but was he in some way involved in terrorist activity?
Sorry if this is too disrespectful, I'll remove it if that is the case.
yes he was but mostly by the fact that he took part in the organization that then produced the terrorists rather than the terrorists directly.So before he dedicated most of his life to fixing what the apartheid had created and what the radical offshoot of what he worked for did, yes he was at least indirectly involved with terrorists, like most freedom fighters are.
you mean he attacked apartheid supporters who were financing guerrilas.and as for obama never attacking civilian meetings simply google videos of americana atrocities in iraq where 1 mil people died,most of them civilian.
because bombing groceries and rugby stadiums is totally the most effective way to air your grievances.
I'd also say that Mandela's involvement in certain violent activities was pretty direct (co-founder of MK), but at least later after his release from prison he did at least advocate for some sort of reconciliation.
He also left the presidency when he easily could have been a ruler for life. That counts for a lot in a region where most leaders leave only through coup or death. Though his successors seem intent on running the country into the ground anyways ~
You don't even know how sad I was after seeing this.
Why should it make you sad? Its natural that over time, the significance of a person's actions a long time ago diminish and become forgotten. I don't think he's entirely unknown, but certainly there's going to be some minority who haven't studied him in history class or through other means. He really hasn't been done anything significant in a few decades, and what he did do had very little relation to the US. I mean there are apparently lots of Americans who can't place Canada on a map and we take up about half of *their* continent.
One thing you have to remember is that looking at that twitter feed, it concentrates all those people into one large group, so it seems like a very large number who are totally unaware of what he did. But we don't know how many people are aware; I'm guessing the majority of the US is aware (and I guess that's a couple hundred million or so?). So really this is just a small fraction.
Possibly a better question is what meaningful purpose is there in knowing what Nelson Mandela did? It may be inspiring I'll give you that, but in terms of functional knowledge I'm not sure there is much purpose. Its not really a 'tragedy' to focus on more useful subjects than to maintain a constant working memory of all the 'heroes' and 'revolutionaries' from the past two decades.
For the sake of the thread I'll add in a rest in peace. I think he was among one of the few people who are universally respected.
You don't think there's functional knowledge in knowing who Mandela was and what he did? We're overly saturated by news about people who don't matter (Kim Kardashian/Paris Hilton/Miley Cyrus etc.) as it is. The Gossip industry has reached a point where we're actually debating on the merits of just giving attention to someone as oh so unimportant as Nelson Mandela.
So it's not that it's a matter of usefullness or purpose but it seems to me that it's really just a question of priority.
Some people prefer to live simple lives and they're comfortable in it. It's fun to act snobbish because I know a lot of misc. stuff as well as big important historical events and symbolic events, but if my buddy who works in construction judges that certain things are inconsequential to his life, it's not completely unreasonable of me to accept that.
I can't understand to save my life why some people are not interested in these things, but what can I do? Be smug and patronizing to these people, and tell them about how a proper occidental fellow should behave? Eh!
Heh, yeah. I was at school today and someone broke in and said that while some people and I were talking and the first thing that came to me was "oh, that sucks, i loved him in the dark knight". It was a joke -- not to this one guy though >: (.
He did great but his country is not in good shape. "Hey now you're free, but we still own everything." It will take some time. The problem is that he basicly decided who was the next President as getting his support meant being elected (which is normal I guess). And the guy he supported has done a very bad job, a true African President.
edit : Remembers me "Waiting for the vote of the wild animals" from Ahmadou Kourouma. All his novels worth a read if you're interested in Africa's politics.
On December 06 2013 18:27 nojok wrote: He did great but his country is not in good shape. "Hey now you're free, but we still own everything." It will take some time. The problem is that he basicly decided who was the next President as getting his support meant being elected (which is normal I guess). And the guy he supported has done a very bad job, a true African President.
The ANC is every bit as racist as the National Party they replaced. White people in SA are having a really bad time, things like government decrees that say white candidates for jobs have to go at the bottom of the list among other things. Maybe he was good as a figure-head, but horrible as a statesman. SA went from the most prosperous country in Africa, a nuclear power, to the highest rates of crime/murder/rape/HIV in the world.
EDIT: All I can say is thank god the SA government (apartheid) had the vision to dismantle those nuclear weapons before they fell into the hands of the ANC
It's amazing that a boy from Qunu touched the world like this. The reaction from his passing is truly humbling. The pessimists will say everyone is being politically correct. However in his death he continues to unite us. We are so grateful. Father of the nation, icon of the world. Lala ngoxolo
It was a long walk to freedom. Rest well. Tata Madiba!
Djazpz. I don't expect people to care, or to know a LOT about Mandela, but how in the name of fuck can you at not have least have heard of him?
Or failing that, google. Ignorance has become socially acceptable, if you have a functioning Internet connection at least use it for something other than posting inane queries about somebody as famous as Mandela.
On December 06 2013 19:26 Wombat_NI wrote: Djazpz. I don't expect people to care, or to know a LOT about Mandela, but how in the name of fuck can you at not have least have heard of him?
Or failing that, google. Ignorance has become socially acceptable, if you have a functioning Internet connection at least use it for something other than posting inane queries about somebody as famous as Mandela.
I dunno man, I think it's hardly their fault. If you haven't heard of him in school or through something or someone, why would you google him if you've never heard the name or you haven't been told why that name is especially relevant?
As for the "ignorance has become socially acceptable", I'm sorry, but that's an ignorant thing to say. When in history was ignorance not acceptable? Regarding general knowledge: It was not long ago that women barely had access to education and it seemed perfectly fine to many. Most men didn't get access university either, nor did they care. They worked. It was roughly in the 50's that people in the US really started being worried about the well-being of people in other countries. Most people didn't give a rat's ass about anything that didn't concern them personally before then. Low-information voters have always been a thing as well.
We can go back to pretty much every civilization in history, even the ones that we consider to be enlightened like the Chinese, the Greeks, the Romans - and even there, only a fraction of the population was interested in knowledge. History books were written to be consulted as archival works but people weren't so aware of any of it. They've always had other concerns. They had to work and worry about their stuff.
I don't entirely condone it, but I don't feel like it's useful to judge people for what's most likely a mix of a poor education and a lack of interest for international affairs in a world where we hear about unfathomable atrocities all day and it can be hard to gauge the relevance of "old news" from 25 years ago for 16 year olds who just want to get out of school to work and make a living.
It's a mentality, perhaps fostered by poor education but not entirely excusable by it.
Not even talking about prior to his death being aware of him, but the mentality that Twitter should hear your thoughts on a guy you aren't aware of, that just NEEDS posted before you even do a cursory Google search.
And yeah to varying degrees I think it is socially acceptable, albeit varies with context. I would get more lampooning in work for knowing things and 'being a nerd' than a fellow worker did for not knowing who the Prime Minister is.
Anyway, need a drink, figure I'll go my local Student's Union, named in honour of Nelson. One of those rare figures genuinely close to being universally admired, despite not being without flaws.
I first saw the news on Muhammad Ali's wall, and I think his statement is a good resume to anyone not familiar with madiba :
" I am deeply saddened by the passing of Mr. Mandela. His was a life filled with purpose and hope; hope for himself, his country and the world. He inspired others to reach for what appeared to be impossible and moved them to break through the barriers that held them hostage mentally, physically, socially and economically. He made us realize, we are our brother's keeper and that our brothers come in all colors.
What I will remember most about Mr. Mandela is that he was a man whose heart, soul and spirit could not be contained or restrained by racial and economic injustices, metal bars or the burden of hate and revenge. He taught us forgiveness on a grand scale. His was a spirit born free, destined to soar above the rainbows. Today his spirit is soaring through the heavens.
As far as the leaders of African National Movements go, Mandela was more moderate and pragmatic than most of his stripe, but I do not know if this qualifies him for the honour of greatness. In my judgement, it merely means that he was the Mirabeau of his movement; a naive figure whose intentions were betrayed by the ultimate consequences of his actions.
On December 06 2013 18:27 nojok wrote: He did great but his country is not in good shape. "Hey now you're free, but we still own everything." It will take some time. The problem is that he basicly decided who was the next President as getting his support meant being elected (which is normal I guess). And the guy he supported has done a very bad job, a true African President.
The ANC is every bit as racist as the National Party they replaced. White people in SA are having a really bad time, things like government decrees that say white candidates for jobs have to go at the bottom of the list among other things. Maybe he was good as a figure-head, but horrible as a statesman. SA went from the most prosperous country in Africa, a nuclear power, to the highest rates of crime/murder/rape/HIV in the world.
EDIT: All I can say is thank god the SA government (apartheid) had the vision to dismantle those nuclear weapons before they fell into the hands of the ANC
I am not sure what you think this country is like today, but your view implies that things were better off for my country back then. If the ANC were as racist as the NP, then we would look like Zimbabwe.
Nobody who suffered under apartheid ever wishes to go back to what things were like. The effect of having Mandela as our president has opened so many opportunities for me and my family. I could go to a better school. I could go to university and get a job that was reserved for a white person only.
As for white people in SA not getting jobs...its hardly that bad for them. You probably hear more about that cos he tweeted it on his iPhone5. They will benefit from the spoils of apartheid for generations to come. There is an entire nation that needs to be given opportunities, education and basic human rights first. I will hire a black person over a white person of the same skill without a second thought..
Our economy isn't great, but there are only a few countries in the world right now that are doing ok. I will take a shit economy over apartheid any day.
BTW: We have a nuclear program today...in the hands of the ANC. There are 3 nuclear power plants going up across the country.
Rebuilding a country is not achieved over a couple of decades. It takes generations.
On December 06 2013 18:27 nojok wrote: He did great but his country is not in good shape. "Hey now you're free, but we still own everything." It will take some time. The problem is that he basicly decided who was the next President as getting his support meant being elected (which is normal I guess). And the guy he supported has done a very bad job, a true African President.
The ANC is every bit as racist as the National Party they replaced. White people in SA are having a really bad time, things like government decrees that say white candidates for jobs have to go at the bottom of the list among other things. Maybe he was good as a figure-head, but horrible as a statesman. SA went from the most prosperous country in Africa, a nuclear power, to the highest rates of crime/murder/rape/HIV in the world.
EDIT: All I can say is thank god the SA government (apartheid) had the vision to dismantle those nuclear weapons before they fell into the hands of the ANC
I will hire a black person over a white person of the same skill without a second thought..
Many people do not know Nelson Mandela because they do not care about apartheid in South Africa and, by extension, prejudice and discrimination in any nation on the face of the planet. Ignorance is not bliss
On December 06 2013 18:27 nojok wrote: He did great but his country is not in good shape. "Hey now you're free, but we still own everything." It will take some time. The problem is that he basicly decided who was the next President as getting his support meant being elected (which is normal I guess). And the guy he supported has done a very bad job, a true African President.
The ANC is every bit as racist as the National Party they replaced. White people in SA are having a really bad time, things like government decrees that say white candidates for jobs have to go at the bottom of the list among other things. Maybe he was good as a figure-head, but horrible as a statesman. SA went from the most prosperous country in Africa, a nuclear power, to the highest rates of crime/murder/rape/HIV in the world.
EDIT: All I can say is thank god the SA government (apartheid) had the vision to dismantle those nuclear weapons before they fell into the hands of the ANC
I am not sure what you think this country is like today, but your view implies that things were better off for my country back then. If the ANC were as racist as the NP, then we would look like Zimbabwe.
Nobody who suffered under apartheid ever wishes to go back to what things were like. The effect of having Mandela as our president has opened so many opportunities for me and my family. I could go to a better school. I could go to university and get a job that was reserved for a white person only.
As for white people in SA not getting jobs...its hardly that bad for them. You probably hear more about that cos he tweeted it on his iPhone5. They will benefit from the spoils of apartheid for generations to come. There is an entire nation that needs to be given opportunities, education and basic human rights first. I will hire a black person over a white person of the same skill without a second thought..
Our economy isn't great, but there are only a few countries in the world right now that are doing ok. I will take a shit economy over apartheid any day.
BTW: We have a nuclear program today...in the hands of the ANC. There are 3 nuclear power plants going up across the country.
Rebuilding a country is not achieved over a couple of decades. It takes generations.
Great comment, should keep the excusers at bay, TL blows in recognizing privilege, we do have a mostly white, not living in shitty country userbase
On December 07 2013 09:03 NeuroticPsychosis wrote: Many people do not know Nelson Mandela because they do not care about apartheid in South Africa and, by extension, prejudice and discrimination in any nation on the face of the planet. Ignorance is not bliss
That's a strange and absolutely retarded extrapolation.
I hate facebook but once in a while, a little pebble of wisdom pops on it. Earlier, someone mocked those who do not know of Mandela and said that they "represent everything that is wrong with the world". A girl that I don't know smartly said that they don't REPRESENT everything that is wrong with the world, but rather they are a RESULT of everything that is wrong with the world.
Too often, people like yourself come up with small catchphrases or just little sentences that make no fucking sense and they don't care to doublecheck their own words for internal coherence. I'm most likely guilty of this myself. You say that not caring about the Apartheid somehow proves that the person also doesn't care about prejudice and discrimination. And yet a person can be completely disgusted by racism in their own general vicinity. They can be aware and against what goes on around them, while being largely unaware of international affairs and international issues.
You, or most people have very limited interest in some of the conflicts that are currently going on and I wouldn't question your morality solely because you don't know what the fuck is going on in Sudan.
On December 06 2013 18:27 nojok wrote: He did great but his country is not in good shape. "Hey now you're free, but we still own everything." It will take some time. The problem is that he basicly decided who was the next President as getting his support meant being elected (which is normal I guess). And the guy he supported has done a very bad job, a true African President.
The ANC is every bit as racist as the National Party they replaced. White people in SA are having a really bad time, things like government decrees that say white candidates for jobs have to go at the bottom of the list among other things. Maybe he was good as a figure-head, but horrible as a statesman. SA went from the most prosperous country in Africa, a nuclear power, to the highest rates of crime/murder/rape/HIV in the world.
EDIT: All I can say is thank god the SA government (apartheid) had the vision to dismantle those nuclear weapons before they fell into the hands of the ANC
I will hire a black person over a white person of the same skill without a second thought..
Still work to do, I see!
I do believe that "positive" discrimination is every bit as disgusting as normal discrimination.
And before anyone reaches for ad homs, I migrated to NZ when I was 5 with my parents with barely any money. But I guess some people would spin that as "privileged".
On topic though: RIP, men with that amount of conviction are rare these days.
On December 07 2013 09:03 NeuroticPsychosis wrote: Many people do not know Nelson Mandela because they do not care about apartheid in South Africa and, by extension, prejudice and discrimination in any nation on the face of the planet. Ignorance is not bliss
That's a strange and absolutely retarded extrapolation.
I hate facebook but once in a while, a little pebble of wisdom pops on it. Earlier, someone mocked those who do not know of Mandela and said that they "represent everything that is wrong with the world". A girl that I don't know smartly said that they don't REPRESENT everything that is wrong with the world, but rather they are a RESULT of everything that is wrong with the world.
Too often, people like yourself come up with small catchphrases or just little sentences that make no fucking sense and they don't care to doublecheck their own words for internal coherence. I'm most likely guilty of this myself. You say that not caring about the Apartheid somehow proves that the person also doesn't care about prejudice and discrimination. And yet a person can be completely disgusted by racism in their own general vicinity. They can be aware and against what goes on around them, while being largely unaware of international affairs and international issues.
You, or most people have very limited interest in some of the conflicts that are currently going on and I wouldn't question your morality solely because you don't know what the fuck is going on in Sudan.
most of the people mocking the ignorance of certain 'muricans have an equally ignorant view of Mandela.
the term bien pensant seems fitting -
Apartheid excusers should be banned
lol - stuff like this is what I mean.
you do realize it is possible to say that by certain metrics, things were better under apartheid, even if one finds apartheid repellent (ending apartheid is a just cause, that does not mean one can't despise the people that bombed groceries attempting to accomplish that, etc. etc.)
to bring up a somewhat obscure example: mafia activity fell under mussolini's time as ruler. does knowing this mean I am a supporter of fascism?
And before anyone reaches for ad homs, I migrated to NZ when I was 5 with my parents with barely any money. But I guess some people would spin that as "privileged".
well yes, the doctrine of white privilege is much like a religion, it is axiomatic and unfalsifiable
If the ANC were as racist as the NP, then we would look like Zimbabwe.
"You have more rights because you're a majority; you have less rights because you're a minority. That's how democracy works." (if you don't know, go look up who said that!) I guess "less" is better than "no".
On December 07 2013 09:03 NeuroticPsychosis wrote: Many people do not know Nelson Mandela because they do not care about apartheid in South Africa and, by extension, prejudice and discrimination in any nation on the face of the planet. Ignorance is not bliss
I hate facebook but once in a while, a little pebble of wisdom pops on it. Earlier, someone mocked those who do not know of Mandela and said that they "represent everything that is wrong with the world". A girl that I don't know smartly said that they don't REPRESENT everything that is wrong with the world, but rather they are a RESULT of everything that is wrong with the world.
Maybe Mandela's compassion itself was realizing his enemies weren't representative of the scum of the earth, but resulting from conditions that might be changed. How can you not harbor a bitterness towards the individual after so many years of imprisonment? Cheers for that one girl.
On December 06 2013 18:27 nojok wrote: He did great but his country is not in good shape. "Hey now you're free, but we still own everything." It will take some time. The problem is that he basicly decided who was the next President as getting his support meant being elected (which is normal I guess). And the guy he supported has done a very bad job, a true African President.
The ANC is every bit as racist as the National Party they replaced. White people in SA are having a really bad time, things like government decrees that say white candidates for jobs have to go at the bottom of the list among other things. Maybe he was good as a figure-head, but horrible as a statesman. SA went from the most prosperous country in Africa, a nuclear power, to the highest rates of crime/murder/rape/HIV in the world.
EDIT: All I can say is thank god the SA government (apartheid) had the vision to dismantle those nuclear weapons before they fell into the hands of the ANC
I am not sure what you think this country is like today, but your view implies that things were better off for my country back then. If the ANC were as racist as the NP, then we would look like Zimbabwe.
Nobody who suffered under apartheid ever wishes to go back to what things were like. The effect of having Mandela as our president has opened so many opportunities for me and my family. I could go to a better school. I could go to university and get a job that was reserved for a white person only.
As for white people in SA not getting jobs...its hardly that bad for them. You probably hear more about that cos he tweeted it on his iPhone5. They will benefit from the spoils of apartheid for generations to come. There is an entire nation that needs to be given opportunities, education and basic human rights first. I will hire a black person over a white person of the same skill without a second thought..
Our economy isn't great, but there are only a few countries in the world right now that are doing ok. I will take a shit economy over apartheid any day.
BTW: We have a nuclear program today...in the hands of the ANC. There are 3 nuclear power plants going up across the country.
Rebuilding a country is not achieved over a couple of decades. It takes generations.
Great comment, should keep the excusers at bay, TL blows in recognizing privilege, we do have a mostly white, not living in shitty country userbase
Not really, his comment was just as ignorant as any pro apartheid comment (not that i've seen any of those). I don't care if he's South African, it's not the right attitude to improve the country as a whole.
On December 07 2013 09:03 NeuroticPsychosis wrote: Many people do not know Nelson Mandela because they do not care about apartheid in South Africa and, by extension, prejudice and discrimination in any nation on the face of the planet. Ignorance is not bliss
While you and your kind happily support atrocities equal or worse to the apartheid regime.
On December 06 2013 18:27 nojok wrote: He did great but his country is not in good shape. "Hey now you're free, but we still own everything." It will take some time. The problem is that he basicly decided who was the next President as getting his support meant being elected (which is normal I guess). And the guy he supported has done a very bad job, a true African President.
The ANC is every bit as racist as the National Party they replaced. White people in SA are having a really bad time, things like government decrees that say white candidates for jobs have to go at the bottom of the list among other things. Maybe he was good as a figure-head, but horrible as a statesman. SA went from the most prosperous country in Africa, a nuclear power, to the highest rates of crime/murder/rape/HIV in the world.
EDIT: All I can say is thank god the SA government (apartheid) had the vision to dismantle those nuclear weapons before they fell into the hands of the ANC
I am not sure what you think this country is like today, but your view implies that things were better off for my country back then. If the ANC were as racist as the NP, then we would look like Zimbabwe.
Nobody who suffered under apartheid ever wishes to go back to what things were like. The effect of having Mandela as our president has opened so many opportunities for me and my family. I could go to a better school. I could go to university and get a job that was reserved for a white person only.
As for white people in SA not getting jobs...its hardly that bad for them. You probably hear more about that cos he tweeted it on his iPhone5. They will benefit from the spoils of apartheid for generations to come. There is an entire nation that needs to be given opportunities, education and basic human rights first. I will hire a black person over a white person of the same skill without a second thought..
Our economy isn't great, but there are only a few countries in the world right now that are doing ok. I will take a shit economy over apartheid any day.
BTW: We have a nuclear program today...in the hands of the ANC. There are 3 nuclear power plants going up across the country.
Rebuilding a country is not achieved over a couple of decades. It takes generations.
Great comment, should keep the excusers at bay, TL blows in recognizing privilege, we do have a mostly white, not living in shitty country userbase
Not really, his comment was just as ignorant as any pro apartheid comment (not that i've seen any of those). I don't care if he's South African, it's not the right attitude to improve the country as a whole.
Not really, his comment was just as ignorant as any pro apartheid comment (not that i've seen any of those). I don't care if he's South African, it's not the right attitude to improve the country as a whole.
RIP btw, a truly great man.
An ignorant comment implies not knowing or understanding the context in which one makes a it.
While it is not the best decision to have to make (re hiring a black person over a white person)...but giving those that have not had an opportunity for 30yrs over someone that has, is something you have to consider in this country. I wish it wasn't something I had to consider. If the guy can do the work, surely give him the opportunity.
Not really, his comment was just as ignorant as any pro apartheid comment (not that i've seen any of those). I don't care if he's South African, it's not the right attitude to improve the country as a whole.
RIP btw, a truly great man.
An ignorant comment implies not knowing or understanding the context in which one makes a it.
While it is not the best decision to have to make (re hiring a black person over a white person)...but giving those that have not had an opportunity for 30yrs over someone that has, is something you have to consider in this country. I wish it wasn't something I had to consider. If the guy can do the work, surely give him the opportunity.
" I will hire a black person over a white person of the same skill without a second thought.."
I am still quite shocked that this user isnt banned yet.Ironwolf you are racist..You do not combat racism with racism because that leads to more racism.This is like me saying i will never hire a black guy because my ancestors were robbed by black people.black racism is one of the most underrated criminal phenomenon in the world today.you are a shame to mandela's memory who wanted reconciliation between races not racism.you are a black racist.the worst kind of black racist.
What I was trying to say was that the ordinary African is worse off now than under colonialism. Black rule alone is no guarantee for black freedom, maybe South Africans should ask their government why South Africa went from being a first world country with health, education and living standards the rest of Africa could only dream of to a country quickly falling back to the levels of sub-Saharan Africa. Its not about 'apartheid is better', but rather who hijacked the dream of a better South Africa, why is dishonesty, deviousness, incompetence, corruption, unreliability, and callous indifference to human suffering overlooked just because its not apartheid?
On December 08 2013 01:26 zeo wrote: What I was trying to say was that the ordinary African is worse off now than under colonialism. Black rule alone is no guarantee for black freedom, maybe South Africans should ask their government why South Africa went from being a first world country with health, education and living standards the rest of Africa could only dream of to a country quickly falling back to the levels of sub-Saharan Africa. Its not about 'apartheid is better', but rather who hijacked the dream of a better South Africa, why is dishonesty, deviousness, incompetence, corruption, unreliability, and callous indifference to human suffering overlooked just because its not apartheid?
i think you are feeding a bit into propaganda.aparthheid africa had it better for white people not for black.most of the country lived worse than it does now.that is like me saying serbia lived better under turkish rule than it does now while independent
On December 08 2013 01:26 zeo wrote: What I was trying to say was that the ordinary African is worse off now than under colonialism. Black rule alone is no guarantee for black freedom, maybe South Africans should ask their government why South Africa went from being a first world country with health, education and living standards the rest of Africa could only dream of to a country quickly falling back to the levels of sub-Saharan Africa. Its not about 'apartheid is better', but rather who hijacked the dream of a better South Africa, why is dishonesty, deviousness, incompetence, corruption, unreliability, and callous indifference to human suffering overlooked just because its not apartheid?
i think you are feeding a bit into propaganda.aparthheid africa had it better for white people not for black.most of the country lived worse than it does now.that is like me saying serbia lived better under turkish rule than it does now while independent
I meant statistics like the average life expectancy of a black person in SA in the last decade of Apartheid nearly equaled that of Europeans, that number fell to 53 years in 1998. Statistically poverty, unemployment, income inequality, life expectancy, land ownership, and educational achievement have worsened since the end of apartheid. Shouldn't someone be held responsible for this? Zuma, the president of SA once said that after having sex with a woman who he knew had HIV he took a shower to 'wash the AIDS off', this coming from a guy who headed the country's National Aids Council. And all this guy has to do is wave around the Mandela card and say, well at least its not apartheid and bam, presidency...
First off, excuse me for not keeping up with the thread. Secondly, could anyone explain to me how Nelson Mandela didn't "sell out" "his half of the continent" ? As "the face of South-Africa" shouldn't he have been, at least, a bit more indignant? While Mandela got his own personal "retribution" South-Africa certainly did not. At the expense of sounding "2edgy", I'd argue that he's been more of a symbol and less of an instrument. Am I absolutely wrong here ? Let me make it clear that I'm not trying to troll or flame or anything, I'm genuinely curious.
far from it in my opinion. It's quite justified to say that had Mandela wished it, he could have easily initiated a civil war against whites upon coming to power, but he opted not to.
It's in poor taste but it takes some balls to blag an interpreter job thinking it's an easy paycheck, then get up on stage in front of the world media and actually do it convincingly for the entire event.
On December 12 2013 05:49 KwarK wrote: It's in poor taste but it takes some balls to blag an interpreter job thinking it's an easy paycheck, then get up on stage in front of the world media and actually do it convincingly for the entire event.
Unfortunately, this is the state of our country. Many job post's are either left vacant for years (with a "temporary" stand-in employee taking the post) or unqualified individuals are appointed the job due to Black Economic Empowerment. Sad thing is, it doesn't seem like it's going to change any time soon here :/
On December 12 2013 05:49 KwarK wrote: It's in poor taste but it takes some balls to blag an interpreter job thinking it's an easy paycheck, then get up on stage in front of the world media and actually do it convincingly for the entire event.
Unfortunately, this is the state of our country. Many job post's are either left vacant for years (with a "temporary" stand-in employee taking the post) or unqualified individuals are appointed the job due to Black Economic Empowerment. Sad thing is, it doesn't seem like it's going to change any time soon here :/
It's a pretty big embarrassment.
I wonder what was going through this guy's head to think he was not going to get caught.
On December 12 2013 05:57 Incognoto wrote: there's no balls in deceit lol. what a poor sense of balls
RIP Mandela.
If I'd accepted a position as a sign language interpreter without knowing sign language and then was required to translate at Mandela's funeral I'd have not shown up for work that day. The job would have been over either way so why show up. But that guy, he gets up on stage and he does it, even though he doesn't know sign language, even though he's certainly going to lose his job. He gets up there and he pretends to know sign language in front of the world.
On December 12 2013 05:57 Incognoto wrote: there's no balls in deceit lol. what a poor sense of balls
RIP Mandela.
Could you imagine being on a stage in front of thousands upon thousands of people and know that you have no fucking idea what your doing? You have to be absolutely shameless to be able to get up and actually do that knowing full well your going to get fired.
On December 12 2013 05:49 KwarK wrote: It's in poor taste but it takes some balls to blag an interpreter job thinking it's an easy paycheck, then get up on stage in front of the world media and actually do it convincingly for the entire event.
Unfortunately, this is the state of our country. Many job post's are either left vacant for years (with a "temporary" stand-in employee taking the post) or unqualified individuals are appointed the job due to Black Economic Empowerment. Sad thing is, it doesn't seem like it's going to change any time soon here :/
It's a pretty big embarrassment.
I wonder what was going through this guy's head to think he was not going to get caught.
to be honest, in some cases (not sure about this one thoug) the individuals don't actually realise that they are not qualified. I've seen this first hand in the Engineering field - people accept a somewhat technical post when its clear he doesn't understand one bit of work or subject matter at hand.
Concerts have people filming them through mobiles, the selfy is ubiquitous, obnoxious as it is. I don't mind politicians being chastised for falling below a certain standard, but not when it's the standard society at large has deemed acceptable
Taken out of context. It's an old Apartheid song sung by the anti apartheid activist ppl (don't know what they were called). Also the group that posted that on youtube are the worst of the worst of the Afrikaner people (read: redneck almost KKK racists trying to undermine what we've been trying to work to the past 20 years) and makes me ashamed to share the same culture as them.
As for the communist ties the ANC had, I really don't think you had a choice back in the Cold War era. Especially when communism preached for racial equality.
"The man also did sign interpretation at an event last year that was attended by South African President Jacob Zuma, Druchen said. At that appearance, a deaf person in the audience videotaped the event and gave it to the federation for the deaf, which analyzed the video, prepared a report about it and a submitted a formal complaint to the ANC, Druchen said.
In their complaint, the federation suggested that the man should take the five years of training needed to become a qualified sign language interpreter in South Africa. But the ANC never responded, Druchen said."
Gold, pure gold. This guy had been going around for years probably doing 'interpretations' and in that time he couldn't be arsed to learn more than three signs. A chimpanzee can learn sign language in that time frame.
HAHAHAHAHA oh my god that dude truly has balls of steel. Stoneface while doing it.
Biggest scam of the century. Cant even imagine what went through his head, when he got offered the job to do the memorial job for Mandela. He must have gone underground by now lol, cant imagine why they would let him get away with it.
HAHAHAHAHA oh my god that dude truly has balls of steel. Stoneface while doing it.
Biggest scam of the century. Cant even imagine what went through his head, when he got offered the job to do the memorial job for Mandela. He must have gone underground by now lol, cant imagine why they would let him get away with it.
It's just shows how corrupted the ANC has become, and it's a sad symbol to have at the memorial of Mandela.
edit: lol so apparently he is blaming that on schizophrenia and says that he was seeing angels during the ceremony... sure that's going to reassure every chief of state that went close to him!
HAHAHAHAHA oh my god that dude truly has balls of steel. Stoneface while doing it.
Biggest scam of the century. Cant even imagine what went through his head, when he got offered the job to do the memorial job for Mandela. He must have gone underground by now lol, cant imagine why they would let him get away with it.
So many heads of state standing next to a guy nobody knows. What the hell is the CIA even doing, i doubt they would have to dig very deep to find out a guy standing next to their president isn't what he says he is. Watched the event live, seemed like people were trolling Mandela. Every 10min the crowed had to be told to calm down, people singing/dancing with vuvuzelas at a funeral being broadcasted around the world, people drunk, Obama talking about himself more than Mandela, taking selfies, no security check for people coming into a stadium were high-ranking foreign dignitaries are in open view, South African president repeatedly booed in front of the whole world. Best thing that happened was the handshake between Raul Castro and Obama, but meh, seeing pictures of Obama next to the translator with the translated caption "I have a drone" underneath, hehe.
Does anyone think the fake sign language guy bares a striking resemblance to the cab driver that the BBC mistook for a computer expert and interview live on the air?
Maybe it's the same guy that just travels around the world getting himself into all kinds of hijinks
On December 06 2013 09:53 Zealos wrote: This probably isn't a good time to ask, but I'm seeing lots of comments about it. Was this guy in any way a terrorist? I love him, and believe he is one the greatest people to live, but was he in some way involved in terrorist activity?
Sorry if this is too disrespectful, I'll remove it if that is the case.
why would you think your comment is disrespectful? you say you love him and he is one of the greatest people to live… don't get much better than that
to say that he was a terrorist- or not is a bit tricky. back in the day the situation for blacks in sa was teeerrible- way worse than for example in the us. the white regime would enforce its ideals/laws/principles with violence… so what kinda happened is that the police would just beat up- or straight up kill the back people who tried to bring about changes (even peaceful demonstrants). and ofcourse, since the whites would even kill the ones triying to change, the reaction of the blacks got more and more raidcal as well. perhaps the worst single event was the massacre at sharperwill where 69 unarmed protestors were killed by the police. as a result the "Umkhonto we Sizwe" (spear of the nation) was founded, of which mr. Mandela was the leader of that organization. the idea was basically that against that kind of behavior only violence would be an adequate answer. so what happend was, that as a leader of the umkhonto we sizwe, mr. Mandela did prepare plans for attacks on the authorities (his handwriting was identified). however, one might say you can only turn the other cheek so many times… so you decide- his people were mistreated and even massacered. he wanted to do something about it, going as far as (maybe?) neccessary. does that make him a terrorist?
On December 06 2013 09:53 Zealos wrote: This probably isn't a good time to ask, but I'm seeing lots of comments about it. Was this guy in any way a terrorist? I love him, and believe he is one the greatest people to live, but was he in some way involved in terrorist activity?
Sorry if this is too disrespectful, I'll remove it if that is the case.
why would you think your comment is disrespectful? you say you love him and he is one of the greatest people to live… don't get much better than that
to say that he was a terrorist- or not is a bit tricky. back in the day the situation for blacks in sa was teeerrible- way worse than for example in the us. the white regime would enforce its ideals/laws/principles with violence… so what kinda happened is that the police would just beat up- or straight up kill the back people who tried to bring about changes (even peaceful demonstrants). and ofcourse, since the whites would even kill the ones triying to change, the reaction of the blacks got more and more raidcal as well. perhaps the worst single event was the massacre at sharperwill where 69 unarmed protestors were killed by the police. as a result the "Umkhonto we Sizwe" (spear of the nation) was founded, of which mr. Mandela was the leader of that organization. the idea was basically that against that kind of behavior only violence would be an adequate answer. so what happend was, that as a leader of the umkhonto we sizwe, mr. Mandela did prepare plans for attacks on the authorities (his handwriting was identified). however, one might say you can only turn the other cheek so many times… so you decide- his people were mistreated and even massacered. he wanted to do something about it, going as far as (maybe?) neccessary. does that make him a terrorist?
Although I agree with you, you're exaggerating a bit there. I do think that the situation for black people were worse than in America, but not way worse. AFAIK Apartheid was not violently enforced, or not initially atleast. Only when there were revolts starting did it become violent. For example the Sharpeville incident that you mentioned, was quite similar to the situation as that of the mine revolts 2 years ago: + Show Spoiler +
The police were called in at Sharpeville to contain the protests. Things got out of hand and apparently things escalated when one policeman lost his nerve and started firing.
That all being said Apartheid was obviously a horrible thing and I'm glad that it ended. Mandela was (in the eyes of the people and government at the time) a terrorist, but also a freedom fighter in the eyes of the "non-white" people.
i think it's great to get a reply from a person from south africa. i did not intentionally exaggerate the political and social situation however, in 2010 i wrote a paper about south africa's increasing involvement on international politics (specifically ibsa). by doing so i also did research on the history as well, in order to have a better grasp about the present (2010 that is). so i basically tried to regive what i read at that time...
On December 06 2013 09:53 Zealos wrote: This probably isn't a good time to ask, but I'm seeing lots of comments about it. Was this guy in any way a terrorist? I love him, and believe he is one the greatest people to live, but was he in some way involved in terrorist activity?
Sorry if this is too disrespectful, I'll remove it if that is the case.
why would you think your comment is disrespectful? you say you love him and he is one of the greatest people to live… don't get much better than that
to say that he was a terrorist- or not is a bit tricky. back in the day the situation for blacks in sa was teeerrible- way worse than for example in the us. the white regime would enforce its ideals/laws/principles with violence… so what kinda happened is that the police would just beat up- or straight up kill the back people who tried to bring about changes (even peaceful demonstrants). and ofcourse, since the whites would even kill the ones triying to change, the reaction of the blacks got more and more raidcal as well. perhaps the worst single event was the massacre at sharperwill where 69 unarmed protestors were killed by the police. as a result the "Umkhonto we Sizwe" (spear of the nation) was founded, of which mr. Mandela was the leader of that organization. the idea was basically that against that kind of behavior only violence would be an adequate answer. so what happend was, that as a leader of the umkhonto we sizwe, mr. Mandela did prepare plans for attacks on the authorities (his handwriting was identified). however, one might say you can only turn the other cheek so many times… so you decide- his people were mistreated and even massacered. he wanted to do something about it, going as far as (maybe?) neccessary. does that make him a terrorist?
Although I agree with you, you're exaggerating a bit there. I do think that the situation for black people were worse than in America, but not way worse. AFAIK Apartheid was not violently enforced, or not initially atleast. Only when there were revolts starting did it become violent. For example the Sharpeville incident that you mentioned, was quite similar to the situation as that of the mine revolts 2 years ago: + Show Spoiler +
The police were called in at Sharpeville to contain the protests. Things got out of hand and apparently things escalated when one policeman lost his nerve and started firing.
That all being said Apartheid was obviously a horrible thing and I'm glad that it ended. Mandela was (in the eyes of the people and government at the time) a terrorist, but also a freedom fighter in the eyes of the "non-white" people.
one man's terrorist is inevitably another's freedom fighter, it's the way of the world
EPT
