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On June 08 2013 01:43 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 01:41 Drowsy wrote:On June 08 2013 01:37 ComaDose wrote:On June 08 2013 01:25 Drowsy wrote:On June 08 2013 01:00 ComaDose wrote:On June 08 2013 00:54 Drowsy wrote:On June 08 2013 00:47 ComaDose wrote:On June 08 2013 00:39 Drowsy wrote:
Of course, but it's not as though male athletes are sexualized in a similar, though admittedly lesser, capacity. This does nothing to support the notion of a systematic patriarchal discriminatory society though. If anything, it demonstrates the much higher price we, in human societies, place on female sexuality vs male sexuality. Eggs are expensive and sperm is cheap, men are the disposable sex.
Wilt Chamberlain. wat? you just said males are sexualized in a lesser capacity and we place a higher price on female sexuality, but you don't think this has the potential to put men (the "judges" of physical appearance) in a relatively higher possition? or effect average women negatively? I read that like: "we judge your looks harder and sexualize you more based on your sex, but its not sexist cause i find your sexuality valuable." wat? A given women above an attractiveness threshold in any public arena will have far more capacity to exploit her sexuality for popularity, personal, and financial gain than a given man of the same attractiveness. Yes, this sounds like a huge advantage to me. That's not to say it's not sexist, just sexism in the direction opposite to the one the jezebelers would like to believe. so you chalk up being objectified as a good thing for all women becuase attractive women are objectified in a good way? what if attrative women dont want to be objectified while they are hosting a board meeting or something? nvm like 80% of the average population that does suffer the negative effects of this judgement litterally everyday. You cant say its okay to sexualize and objectify half the population of the planet becuase some women benifit from it im sorry thats just toooooo wrong.How much harder is it for an ugly woman than an ugly man by your own logic? which group would you say is larger? Do you honestly believe attractive women enjoy the majority of the attention they get in those public places? EDIT: + Show Spoiler +On June 08 2013 00:58 saddaromma wrote:
its simple. boys watch sports, girls don't. therefore, hot chicks are popular, and hot guys are not. omg get back in your time machine please bolded: The majority of women are pretty damn hot from age 18-30 and will have some opportunity to sell their sexuality. When we're talking physically active elite athletes nearly you can bump that up to nearly all of them. The capacity to commodify one's sexuality among all females still far outstrips all males. Whether or not they'd like to take advantage of this opportunity is their choice; nobody is putting a gun to their head and asking them to pose for maxim. Having one's sexuality commodified doesn't just happen automatically, there has to be some participation. underlined: Okay? Hell no I don't think it's okay. It's totally unfair that people should be able to leverage their sexuality to such an extent and gain power/wealth/fame through it when it would be otherwise undeserved. For women its a relatively inborn characteristic as well and difficult to improve. It's very unfair to those females who aren't born with it and to the majority of men who will never be able to leverage their sexuality in a similar manner for personal gain. In athletics, people are gaining fame/popularity/sponsorships/money on things they were largely born with that are sometimes unrelated to their actual athletic skills (depends on the sport). But alas, while I hate it, I don't think its from some systematic socially engineered conspiracy. It's from immutable laws of human biology and its here to stay, and let's not lie to ourselves about who's winning from the arrangement and who's losing. Any woman who is running the board room definitely already knows how to cultivate a professional atmosphere in which she is objectified against her will. Well, to return to the athletics discussion, if objectification bothers an athlete they should probably not agree to maxim photoshoots. you do know this so called "advantage" is a 100% male created and controled thing right? and its not really your place to tell women that an oportunity to leverage their sexuallity is more valuable than not being judged based on your looks constantly. additionally your not in a possition to state that the majority of women 18-30 are attractive and you also dont seem to realize this is less than half the female population. you say "Whether or not they'd like to take advantage of this opportunity is their choice" but it is not their choice to be judged constantly on their physical apearance. most people dont make their sexuality a commodity, but they are still objectified. immutable laws of human biology? what are you a rottweiler? i hope you're on a leash caveman! Any woman who is running the board room definitely already knows how to cultivate a professional atmosphere in which she is objectified against her will. so that makes it okay to objectify all women against their will? its her responsibitliy as an attractive female to deal with stupid men? Did you read anything I posted? yup, you? EDIT: + Show Spoiler +I said: "You cant say its okay to sexualize and objectify half the population of the planet". You said "Okay? Hell no I don't think it's okay. It's totally unfair that people should be able to leverage their sexuality to such an extent and gain power/wealth/fame through it when it would be otherwise undeserved." which insinuates that you find sexualizing and objectifying women to be an advantage to women.
do i understand correctly?
Damn right. Believe it or not, while lots of people lose from being judged by their appearance, there are also people who benefit enormously, observe the Kardashians. People are indeed judged by their looks, but it's not as though it's like "oh, well she's ugly so let's kick her out of the WNBA./board room/ice cream truck". I guess I would concede to you that being physically unattractive in the public sphere/as a professional athlete, is far less of a liability for a male than a female. This is more than compensated by the fact that being of average/above average attractiveness is far more of an advantage for a female than a male.
Furthermore, while you berated me and called me a dog, this does not change the fact that sexuality is expressed largely animalistically and primally and is far less of a flexible conscious process. Observe tumescence monitor studies in males and females if you need convincing. Things like birth control and recreational sex are relatively new to human history; a great deal of human sexuality still operates on the assumption of survival of the species. In that framework, female sexuality commands a higher price and societal value because the female reproductive resource, eggs, is measurable and infinitesimally smaller in quantity than the male reproductive resource, which is virtually infinite. As a final result, society at large places a far greater value on female sexuality than male, which is the answer to the question posed by the original poster. "Why are female sports more sexualized than male sports?"
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All attractive athletes are sexualize. If you watch female sports and get turned on...it doesn't mean the sport is sexualize. It means you're straight man or a lesbian.
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On June 08 2013 01:45 theodorus12 wrote:
Just looking at this topic I knew the op is from Sweden. What is it with you Swedes and all this forced political correctness and feminism.
So maybe girls in sports are sexualized, who cares? I mean its a huge selling point for them, if I want to see real sports or athletes who show what is possible with the human body I would watch superior male athletes, looking sexy is probably one of the biggest selling points if you wanna get to the main sports audience
Just watched Djokovic-Nadal, 4h37m grueling match incredible tennis, 5 sets.
Look over to womens tennis, Williams 6-0 6-1 ez game, Serena practically only plays in GS's and lol's her way through every game in 2 sets
Is it fair women and men get the same amount of money even though womens tennis is a joke? I mean the Williams sisters finish their singles matches and then go off and play doubles too
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On June 08 2013 01:46 dUTtrOACh wrote:Hey... Many athletes are sexy people, and that's nothing to be ashamed of. If women's sports are "sexualized" then they should be happy, because that's a step toward equality. In ancient Greek art, Olympians are depicted as being completely naked. A strong, healthy physique and well-defined musculature is attractive to many people. I can think of many male athletes who have been "sexualized": David Beckham Roger Federer Christiano Ronaldo Kobe Bryant The OP is being very biased in male athlete selection. Brock Lesnar (would probably be intimidating to more people than he is attractive to)... Kimbo Slice (looks like someone out of a bum-fights DVD)... Wayne Rooney (scrappy, bull-doggish appearance)... I can think of some female athletes very easily who wouldn't be "sexualized" if they begged: ![[image loading]](http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/08/05/article-2184051-14660C6B000005DC-99_634x423.jpg)
Zhou Lulu... She probably has one of the most fluid and consistent jerks in the whole sport. All the chinese lifters are great jerkers but she and Liao Hui are on a different level.
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On June 08 2013 02:03 Zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 01:45 theodorus12 wrote:
Just looking at this topic I knew the op is from Sweden. What is it with you Swedes and all this forced political correctness and feminism.
So maybe girls in sports are sexualized, who cares? I mean its a huge selling point for them, if I want to see real sports or athletes who show what is possible with the human body I would watch superior male athletes, looking sexy is probably one of the biggest selling points if you wanna get to the main sports audience Just watched Djokovic-Nadal, 4h37m grueling match incredible tennis, 5 sets. Look over to womens tennis, Williams 6-0 6-1 ez game, Serena practically only plays in GS's and lol's her way through every game in 2 sets Is it fair women and men get the same amount of money even though womens tennis is a joke?
Well you're not being objective. Calling women's tennis a joke is your opinion.
Of all the female sports out there, In my opinion women's tennis is the most respected.
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On June 08 2013 02:05 Drowsy wrote:
Zhou Lulu... She probably has one of the most fluid and consistent jerks in the whole sport. All the chinese lifters are great jerkers but she and Liao Hui are on a different level.
I'm not really into weightlifting in general but I couldn't look away watching this woman crush through 200+ kg dead-lifts.
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It is really quite simple, women's sport is sexualized and so is men's sport.
Sports is just a market where there are more men viewers and sexualized marketing tends to be more effective towards men, and female atheles certainly get more opportunities to exploit sexuality than male athletes due to that.
Also in current sociaty men are generally more open about expressing the desire for sexualized women, be it in sports, movies or music and women tend to be more private about it, this again allows for females in many different carriers to be more sexualized.
The question of the OP is a bit dull I feel, due to it being clear that sports regardless of gender use sex as part of the appeal; at least as I see it.
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On June 08 2013 02:06 KingAce wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 02:03 Zeo wrote:On June 08 2013 01:45 theodorus12 wrote:
Just looking at this topic I knew the op is from Sweden. What is it with you Swedes and all this forced political correctness and feminism.
So maybe girls in sports are sexualized, who cares? I mean its a huge selling point for them, if I want to see real sports or athletes who show what is possible with the human body I would watch superior male athletes, looking sexy is probably one of the biggest selling points if you wanna get to the main sports audience Just watched Djokovic-Nadal, 4h37m grueling match incredible tennis, 5 sets. Look over to womens tennis, Williams 6-0 6-1 ez game, Serena practically only plays in GS's and lol's her way through every game in 2 sets Is it fair women and men get the same amount of money even though womens tennis is a joke? Well you're not being objective. Calling women's tennis a joke is your opinion. Of all the female sports out there, In my opinion women's tennis is the most respected.
Well there you go, the most respected womens sport, in its current state is a joke.
During the 1998 Australian Open, sisters Serena and Venus Williams boasted that they could beat any man ranked outside the world's top 200. The challenge was accepted by Karsten Braasch, a German player ranked No 203 (his highest ranking was No 38). before the matches, Braasch played a round of golf in the morning, drank a couple of beers, smoked a few cigarettes, and then played the Williams sisters for a set each, one after the other. He defeated Serena, 6-1, and Venus, 6-2. Serena said afterwards "I didn't know it would be that hard. I hit shots that would have been winners on the women's tour and he got to them easily."
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i can sexualize just about anything! TL is looking particularly sexy today as well hmmmm...
BUT! yes in order to get more viewers / popularity thus money some if not most female sports capitalize on "sex sells"
everyone does it and i find it easy on the eyes so you just might have to deal with it, or spend a lot of money so female beach volleyball can be played in burkas!
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Beauty gives women power and people take advantage of it to make money. This is as old as humans.
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United States22883 Posts
On June 08 2013 02:03 Zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 01:45 theodorus12 wrote:
Just looking at this topic I knew the op is from Sweden. What is it with you Swedes and all this forced political correctness and feminism.
So maybe girls in sports are sexualized, who cares? I mean its a huge selling point for them, if I want to see real sports or athletes who show what is possible with the human body I would watch superior male athletes, looking sexy is probably one of the biggest selling points if you wanna get to the main sports audience Just watched Djokovic-Nadal, 4h37m grueling match incredible tennis, 5 sets. Look over to womens tennis, Williams 6-0 6-1 ez game, Serena practically only plays in GS's and lol's her way through every game in 2 sets Is it fair women and men get the same amount of money even though womens tennis is a joke? I mean the Williams sisters finish their singles matches and then go off and play doubles too
Athletes aren't paid by performance, they're paid by marketability.
If the ratings for the two finals are equal (or predicted to be equal, because the pools are set in advance), then they should be the same. If they're not, then they shouldn't be. No one cares how good Nadal or Serena are unless they get people to watch them. Sports is entertainment, and performance doesn't necessarily translate to entertainment (we see this argument all the time in the SC2 forum with Koreans vs. Foreigners.)
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Athletes have (usually) well defined/muscled bodies, and (usually) wear "revealing" clothing (as little as possible, as it can give some kind of advantage I guess). Both genders (usually) find this attractive.
The only difference I see is that males are allowed (i.e. it's socially accepted) to display their attraction more open- /aggressively. Which is why the medial portrayal of female athletes that are considered "sexy" is a bit more blatant.
I find discussions like these hugely hypocritical in the face of the enormous influence attractiveness (Sex) has on our perceptions and behavior. We are hard (hah) wired to like Sex. We are conditioned to find certain outstanding specimen attractive. The porn industry is huuuuuge. But when somewhere someone (usually a man) displays that he likes them butts/boobies- "omagad what a perv let's have an outrage!"
edit: lmao are (female) weightlifters really called jerkers?
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On June 08 2013 02:15 aTnClouD wrote:
Beauty gives women power and people take advantage of it to make money. This is as old as humans.
Perhaps, but athletic prowess puts them in the spotlight in the first place. Beauty by itself isn't power, or the world would be ruled by stunning women (something which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing).
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On June 08 2013 02:15 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 02:03 Zeo wrote:On June 08 2013 01:45 theodorus12 wrote:
Just looking at this topic I knew the op is from Sweden. What is it with you Swedes and all this forced political correctness and feminism.
So maybe girls in sports are sexualized, who cares? I mean its a huge selling point for them, if I want to see real sports or athletes who show what is possible with the human body I would watch superior male athletes, looking sexy is probably one of the biggest selling points if you wanna get to the main sports audience Just watched Djokovic-Nadal, 4h37m grueling match incredible tennis, 5 sets. Look over to womens tennis, Williams 6-0 6-1 ez game, Serena practically only plays in GS's and lol's her way through every game in 2 sets Is it fair women and men get the same amount of money even though womens tennis is a joke? I mean the Williams sisters finish their singles matches and then go off and play doubles too Athletes aren't paid by performance, they're paid by marketability. If the ratings for the two finals are equal (or predicted to be equal, because the pools are set in advance), then they should be the same. If they're not, then they shouldn't be. No one cares how good Nadal or Serena are unless they get people to watch them. Sports is entertainment, and performance doesn't necessarily translate to entertainment (we see this argument all the time in the SC2 forum with Koreans vs. Foreigners.)
If you are saying the same amount of people watch womans tennis as mens then the answer is no. Mens tennis (finals) has over double the television ratings of womens tennis (finals) in the last 10 years
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On June 08 2013 02:15 aTnClouD wrote:
Beauty gives women power and people take advantage of it to make money. This is as old as humans.
I don't know why I bother typing out long explanations. This is ultimately what happens.
We've entered some pseudo-religious narrative which frames this very simple concept as deeply oppressive toward women and this is caused by a nefarious, sinister, social engineering spanning thousands of years planned by elite, powerful, white men for the express purpose of oppression and subjugation of half the population.
It's proving surprisingly difficult to argue against this narrative without subjecting oneself to ad-hominem flogging.
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United States22883 Posts
On June 08 2013 02:19 Zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 02:15 Jibba wrote:On June 08 2013 02:03 Zeo wrote:On June 08 2013 01:45 theodorus12 wrote:
Just looking at this topic I knew the op is from Sweden. What is it with you Swedes and all this forced political correctness and feminism.
So maybe girls in sports are sexualized, who cares? I mean its a huge selling point for them, if I want to see real sports or athletes who show what is possible with the human body I would watch superior male athletes, looking sexy is probably one of the biggest selling points if you wanna get to the main sports audience Just watched Djokovic-Nadal, 4h37m grueling match incredible tennis, 5 sets. Look over to womens tennis, Williams 6-0 6-1 ez game, Serena practically only plays in GS's and lol's her way through every game in 2 sets Is it fair women and men get the same amount of money even though womens tennis is a joke? I mean the Williams sisters finish their singles matches and then go off and play doubles too Athletes aren't paid by performance, they're paid by marketability. If the ratings for the two finals are equal (or predicted to be equal, because the pools are set in advance), then they should be the same. If they're not, then they shouldn't be. No one cares how good Nadal or Serena are unless they get people to watch them. Sports is entertainment, and performance doesn't necessarily translate to entertainment (we see this argument all the time in the SC2 forum with Koreans vs. Foreigners.) If you are saying the same amount of people watch womans tennis as mens then the answer is no. Mens tennis (finals) has over double the television ratings of womens tennis (finals) in the last 10 years
Read what I wrote.
If they're not, then they shouldn't be. The last 30 years is kind of irrelevant historical data for the sake of awarding money. Looking at just the last 5 years would be more appropriate. Both men's and women's were in the shitter for a while but overall men's still has more draw and should therefore have more money. There may be other behind-the-scenes things like specific sponsors paying for something (the way Riot and Wargaming pay people to run tournaments for their games) but the overall point is that it's about profitability, not performance. Performance enhances profitability, but so do many other factors.
On June 08 2013 02:20 Drowsy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 02:15 aTnClouD wrote:
Beauty gives women power and people take advantage of it to make money. This is as old as humans. I don't know why I bother typing out long explanations. This is ultimately what happens. We've entered some pseudo-religious narrative which frames this very simple concept as deeply oppressive toward women and this is caused by a nefarious, sinister, social engineering spanning thousands of years planned by elite, powerful, white men for the express purpose of oppression and subjugation of half the population. It's proving surprisingly difficult to argue against this narrative without subjecting oneself to ad-hominem flogging. It's often a mistake to attribute motive, but that doesn't mean the problems don't exist. It's possible to take bad paths unintentionally, and it's especially problematic when people pretend the problems don't exist. I think those people are often just being defensive about the motive implication. But that's for different topics, I don't think it's so relevant to this one.
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IMO male athletes are under-sexualized because the target demographic is homophobic males.
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I come in to expect more pictures, i am disappointed.
But ya, sex sells and that included the sport industry.
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On June 08 2013 02:01 Drowsy wrote:
[...] This is more than compensated by the fact that being of average/above average attractiveness is far more of an advantage for a female than a male.
[...]
Please try to look that up. I'm pretty sure that's not true. Men benefit more from above average attractiveness than women. At least that's the way I remember it from sociological studies about what attractiveness changes in how an observer perceives things.
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I can't help but immediately think of this article. Perhaps a long shot but I think you'll see the point.
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EPT
