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Please attempt to distinguish between extremists and non extremists to avoid starting the inevitable waste of time that is "can Islam be judged by its believers?" - KwarK |
I wonder why people are just walking around like nothing happened.
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On May 23 2013 12:58 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 12:52 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 23 2013 12:43 LittleRedBoy wrote:
This attack has nothing to do with Islam or religion. The attacker himself said that he wanted David Cameron to call back British troops from Muslim countries like Afganistan. Further, he said that women in Muslim countries see attacks like those every day so it makes sense that he would be angry and want to get revenge. On May 23 2013 12:45 KwarK wrote:On May 23 2013 12:32 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
Because if you think that then you'll support and demand wars in a whole manner of Muslim countries and then they can really get their Islam vs the West World War 3 show on the road that they're just waiting to kick off. I really don't think you watched the video at all. He was clearly frustrated at the indifference and even apathy of the British voting public to the ongoing conflicts that their government is involved in globally. If he wanted to make people afraid he could have killed a civilian, he didn't, he picked a soldier. A soldier dying isn't important, soldiers are supposed to die, it's the news equivalent of dog licks balls. This wasn't about fear, that was about getting a pedestal to shout his rant from. Watch the video of his rant. He's trying to stir up a debate about the morality of our involvement in those countries by using an act of inhumane violence as a parallel. It's a horrific act but one with a clear and singular purpose which I think you've completely missed. “We swear by Almighty Allah, we will never stop fighting you until you leave us alone. The only reasons we killed this man is because Muslims are dying daily. This British soldier is an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. We apologize that woman had to see this today, but in our lands our women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Yep, nothing to do with religion. The oath that invokes Allah doesn't say he's doing it because Allah told him to, he's just making an oath to keep fighting. The reason he's fighting is because Muslims are dying, they're not dying of religious disagreement, they're dying due to foreign policy decisions. This British soldier, as an instrument of the British foreign policy, is being held responsible for that. We are sorry there is blood in your streets but you must understand there is blood in our streets too. You people will never be safe. How is that not a political point about our foreign policy, even when you deliberately cut out the end bit where he expressly called for opposition to the government? Religion is a sideshow. He's religious and that clearly has influenced his sense of the western world vs Muslims but his point isn't about dogma, it's about boots on the ground, it's about matters of government policy. He expressly says that in the bit you cut out.
More backflips.
You're drawing a line between religion and politics that does not exist for great chunks of the Muslim world. Saying that it is a religious act does not mean it isn't a political one as well. Saying it is a political act does not mean it isn't a religious one as well.
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On May 23 2013 12:58 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 12:52 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 23 2013 12:43 LittleRedBoy wrote:
This attack has nothing to do with Islam or religion. The attacker himself said that he wanted David Cameron to call back British troops from Muslim countries like Afganistan. Further, he said that women in Muslim countries see attacks like those every day so it makes sense that he would be angry and want to get revenge. On May 23 2013 12:45 KwarK wrote:On May 23 2013 12:32 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
Because if you think that then you'll support and demand wars in a whole manner of Muslim countries and then they can really get their Islam vs the West World War 3 show on the road that they're just waiting to kick off. I really don't think you watched the video at all. He was clearly frustrated at the indifference and even apathy of the British voting public to the ongoing conflicts that their government is involved in globally. If he wanted to make people afraid he could have killed a civilian, he didn't, he picked a soldier. A soldier dying isn't important, soldiers are supposed to die, it's the news equivalent of dog licks balls. This wasn't about fear, that was about getting a pedestal to shout his rant from. Watch the video of his rant. He's trying to stir up a debate about the morality of our involvement in those countries by using an act of inhumane violence as a parallel. It's a horrific act but one with a clear and singular purpose which I think you've completely missed. “We swear by Almighty Allah, we will never stop fighting you until you leave us alone. The only reasons we killed this man is because Muslims are dying daily. This British soldier is an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. We apologize that woman had to see this today, but in our lands our women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Yep, nothing to do with religion. The oath that invokes Allah doesn't say he's doing it because Allah told him to, he's just making an oath to keep fighting. The reason he's fighting is because Muslims are dying, they're not dying of religious disagreement, they're dying due to foreign policy decisions. This British soldier, as an instrument of the British foreign policy, is being held responsible for that. We are sorry there is blood in your streets but you must understand there is blood in our streets too. You people will never be safe. How is that not a political point about our foreign policy, even when you deliberately cut out the end bit where he expressly called for opposition to the government? Religion is a sideshow. He's religious and that clearly has influenced his sense of the western world vs Muslims but his point isn't about dogma, it's about boots on the ground, it's about matters of government policy. He expressly says that in the bit you cut out.
Talking about the War of Terror without religion is like talking about Hitler without the racism and social darwinism, it pervades every single thing they do and is completely inseperable from the political side of this. It's absolutely absurd to try and separate the political side of this from the religious because their interpretation of their religion is the entire reason they hold these views in the first place. Their religion is their foundation of their entire world view. They see Islam in every decision they make.
You are trying to talk about the secular side of Islamic fundamentalism, just pause for a second and think about how ridiculous that is.
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On May 23 2013 12:52 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 12:43 LittleRedBoy wrote:
This attack has nothing to do with Islam or religion. The attacker himself said that he wanted David Cameron to call back British troops from Muslim countries like Afganistan. Further, he said that women in Muslim countries see attacks like those every day so it makes sense that he would be angry and want to get revenge. Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 12:45 KwarK wrote:On May 23 2013 12:32 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
Because if you think that then you'll support and demand wars in a whole manner of Muslim countries and then they can really get their Islam vs the West World War 3 show on the road that they're just waiting to kick off. I really don't think you watched the video at all. He was clearly frustrated at the indifference and even apathy of the British voting public to the ongoing conflicts that their government is involved in globally. If he wanted to make people afraid he could have killed a civilian, he didn't, he picked a soldier. A soldier dying isn't important, soldiers are supposed to die, it's the news equivalent of dog licks balls. This wasn't about fear, that was about getting a pedestal to shout his rant from. Watch the video of his rant. He's trying to stir up a debate about the morality of our involvement in those countries by using an act of inhumane violence as a parallel. It's a horrific act but one with a clear and singular purpose which I think you've completely missed. “We swear by Almighty Allah, we will never stop fighting you until you leave us alone. The only reasons we killed this man is because Muslims are dying daily. This British soldier is an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. We apologize that woman had to see this today, but in our lands our women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Yep, nothing to do with religion.
It has more to do with people's family members being killed than it has to do with anything else. You seem to have left out the part where he says "tell [the British government] to bring our troops back so you can all live in peace." He explicitly says that if they remove their troops then these attacks won't happen.
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On May 23 2013 13:02 LittleRedBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 12:52 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 23 2013 12:43 LittleRedBoy wrote:
This attack has nothing to do with Islam or religion. The attacker himself said that he wanted David Cameron to call back British troops from Muslim countries like Afganistan. Further, he said that women in Muslim countries see attacks like those every day so it makes sense that he would be angry and want to get revenge. On May 23 2013 12:45 KwarK wrote:On May 23 2013 12:32 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
Because if you think that then you'll support and demand wars in a whole manner of Muslim countries and then they can really get their Islam vs the West World War 3 show on the road that they're just waiting to kick off. I really don't think you watched the video at all. He was clearly frustrated at the indifference and even apathy of the British voting public to the ongoing conflicts that their government is involved in globally. If he wanted to make people afraid he could have killed a civilian, he didn't, he picked a soldier. A soldier dying isn't important, soldiers are supposed to die, it's the news equivalent of dog licks balls. This wasn't about fear, that was about getting a pedestal to shout his rant from. Watch the video of his rant. He's trying to stir up a debate about the morality of our involvement in those countries by using an act of inhumane violence as a parallel. It's a horrific act but one with a clear and singular purpose which I think you've completely missed. “We swear by Almighty Allah, we will never stop fighting you until you leave us alone. The only reasons we killed this man is because Muslims are dying daily. This British soldier is an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. We apologize that woman had to see this today, but in our lands our women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Yep, nothing to do with religion. It has more to do with people's family members being killed than it has to do with anything else. You seem to have left out the part where he says "tell [the British government] to bring our troops back so you can all live in peace." He explicitly says that if they remove their troops then these attacks won't happen.
That doesn't stop this being about religion for the reasons I've explained above.
It is beyond ridiculous to talk about the secular policies of Islamic fundamentalism.
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On May 23 2013 13:02 LittleRedBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 12:52 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 23 2013 12:43 LittleRedBoy wrote:
This attack has nothing to do with Islam or religion. The attacker himself said that he wanted David Cameron to call back British troops from Muslim countries like Afganistan. Further, he said that women in Muslim countries see attacks like those every day so it makes sense that he would be angry and want to get revenge. On May 23 2013 12:45 KwarK wrote:On May 23 2013 12:32 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
Because if you think that then you'll support and demand wars in a whole manner of Muslim countries and then they can really get their Islam vs the West World War 3 show on the road that they're just waiting to kick off. I really don't think you watched the video at all. He was clearly frustrated at the indifference and even apathy of the British voting public to the ongoing conflicts that their government is involved in globally. If he wanted to make people afraid he could have killed a civilian, he didn't, he picked a soldier. A soldier dying isn't important, soldiers are supposed to die, it's the news equivalent of dog licks balls. This wasn't about fear, that was about getting a pedestal to shout his rant from. Watch the video of his rant. He's trying to stir up a debate about the morality of our involvement in those countries by using an act of inhumane violence as a parallel. It's a horrific act but one with a clear and singular purpose which I think you've completely missed. “We swear by Almighty Allah, we will never stop fighting you until you leave us alone. The only reasons we killed this man is because Muslims are dying daily. This British soldier is an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. We apologize that woman had to see this today, but in our lands our women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Yep, nothing to do with religion. It has more to do with people's family members being killed than it has to do with anything else. You seem to have left out the part where he says "tell [the British government] to bring our troops back so you can all live in peace." He explicitly says that if they remove their troops then these attacks won't happen.
Too bad that's a lie isn't it.
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It's odd to me that the guy speaks with a London accent and refers to somewhere in the middle east as 'our lands'. He also gets mixes up 'you' and 'us' when talking about the British public. He was obviously a Londoner and not even from the middle east.
As I said previously, it's some British muslim who was groomed for extremism. This happens several times a year, but the police usually catch them before they act.
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On May 23 2013 13:04 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 13:02 LittleRedBoy wrote:On May 23 2013 12:52 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 23 2013 12:43 LittleRedBoy wrote:
This attack has nothing to do with Islam or religion. The attacker himself said that he wanted David Cameron to call back British troops from Muslim countries like Afganistan. Further, he said that women in Muslim countries see attacks like those every day so it makes sense that he would be angry and want to get revenge. On May 23 2013 12:45 KwarK wrote:On May 23 2013 12:32 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
Because if you think that then you'll support and demand wars in a whole manner of Muslim countries and then they can really get their Islam vs the West World War 3 show on the road that they're just waiting to kick off. I really don't think you watched the video at all. He was clearly frustrated at the indifference and even apathy of the British voting public to the ongoing conflicts that their government is involved in globally. If he wanted to make people afraid he could have killed a civilian, he didn't, he picked a soldier. A soldier dying isn't important, soldiers are supposed to die, it's the news equivalent of dog licks balls. This wasn't about fear, that was about getting a pedestal to shout his rant from. Watch the video of his rant. He's trying to stir up a debate about the morality of our involvement in those countries by using an act of inhumane violence as a parallel. It's a horrific act but one with a clear and singular purpose which I think you've completely missed. “We swear by Almighty Allah, we will never stop fighting you until you leave us alone. The only reasons we killed this man is because Muslims are dying daily. This British soldier is an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. We apologize that woman had to see this today, but in our lands our women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Yep, nothing to do with religion. It has more to do with people's family members being killed than it has to do with anything else. You seem to have left out the part where he says "tell [the British government] to bring our troops back so you can all live in peace." He explicitly says that if they remove their troops then these attacks won't happen. That doesn't stop this being about religion for the reasons I've explained above. It is beyond ridiculous to talk about the secular policies of Islamic fundamentalism.
You can argue that this guy's world view has been shaped by Islam. But the motivation for this attack was political, first and foremost. He doesn't say "we killed this man because we hate Western values and we want to impose our religion on the rest of the world" or anything close to that.
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United States44451 Posts
On May 23 2013 13:05 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 13:02 LittleRedBoy wrote:On May 23 2013 12:52 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 23 2013 12:43 LittleRedBoy wrote:
This attack has nothing to do with Islam or religion. The attacker himself said that he wanted David Cameron to call back British troops from Muslim countries like Afganistan. Further, he said that women in Muslim countries see attacks like those every day so it makes sense that he would be angry and want to get revenge. On May 23 2013 12:45 KwarK wrote:On May 23 2013 12:32 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
Because if you think that then you'll support and demand wars in a whole manner of Muslim countries and then they can really get their Islam vs the West World War 3 show on the road that they're just waiting to kick off. I really don't think you watched the video at all. He was clearly frustrated at the indifference and even apathy of the British voting public to the ongoing conflicts that their government is involved in globally. If he wanted to make people afraid he could have killed a civilian, he didn't, he picked a soldier. A soldier dying isn't important, soldiers are supposed to die, it's the news equivalent of dog licks balls. This wasn't about fear, that was about getting a pedestal to shout his rant from. Watch the video of his rant. He's trying to stir up a debate about the morality of our involvement in those countries by using an act of inhumane violence as a parallel. It's a horrific act but one with a clear and singular purpose which I think you've completely missed. “We swear by Almighty Allah, we will never stop fighting you until you leave us alone. The only reasons we killed this man is because Muslims are dying daily. This British soldier is an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. We apologize that woman had to see this today, but in our lands our women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Yep, nothing to do with religion. It has more to do with people's family members being killed than it has to do with anything else. You seem to have left out the part where he says "tell [the British government] to bring our troops back so you can all live in peace." He explicitly says that if they remove their troops then these attacks won't happen. Too bad that's a lie isn't it.
Well yes, obviously he's not in charge of all political and religious disputes everywhere, he doesn't have the power to go "it's alright now dudes on both sides, everyone calm down, we found a way to give the same land to both Palestinians and Israelis and to reconcile free speech with religious protection".
However, while religion clearly influenced his decision and pervades his world view the points he were making were political. There is no denying there is a link but equally dismissing it as religious ignores the fact that everything he said was about politics.
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On May 23 2013 13:08 LittleRedBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 13:04 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 23 2013 13:02 LittleRedBoy wrote:On May 23 2013 12:52 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 23 2013 12:43 LittleRedBoy wrote:
This attack has nothing to do with Islam or religion. The attacker himself said that he wanted David Cameron to call back British troops from Muslim countries like Afganistan. Further, he said that women in Muslim countries see attacks like those every day so it makes sense that he would be angry and want to get revenge. On May 23 2013 12:45 KwarK wrote:On May 23 2013 12:32 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
Because if you think that then you'll support and demand wars in a whole manner of Muslim countries and then they can really get their Islam vs the West World War 3 show on the road that they're just waiting to kick off. I really don't think you watched the video at all. He was clearly frustrated at the indifference and even apathy of the British voting public to the ongoing conflicts that their government is involved in globally. If he wanted to make people afraid he could have killed a civilian, he didn't, he picked a soldier. A soldier dying isn't important, soldiers are supposed to die, it's the news equivalent of dog licks balls. This wasn't about fear, that was about getting a pedestal to shout his rant from. Watch the video of his rant. He's trying to stir up a debate about the morality of our involvement in those countries by using an act of inhumane violence as a parallel. It's a horrific act but one with a clear and singular purpose which I think you've completely missed. “We swear by Almighty Allah, we will never stop fighting you until you leave us alone. The only reasons we killed this man is because Muslims are dying daily. This British soldier is an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. We apologize that woman had to see this today, but in our lands our women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Yep, nothing to do with religion. It has more to do with people's family members being killed than it has to do with anything else. You seem to have left out the part where he says "tell [the British government] to bring our troops back so you can all live in peace." He explicitly says that if they remove their troops then these attacks won't happen. That doesn't stop this being about religion for the reasons I've explained above. It is beyond ridiculous to talk about the secular policies of Islamic fundamentalism. You can argue that this guy's world view has been shaped by Islam. But the motivation for this attack was political, first and foremost. He doesn't say "we killed this man because we hate Western values and we want to impose our religion on the rest of the world" or anything close to that.
When Hitler invaded Russia, was it political or racial?
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On May 23 2013 13:11 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 13:08 LittleRedBoy wrote:On May 23 2013 13:04 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 23 2013 13:02 LittleRedBoy wrote:On May 23 2013 12:52 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 23 2013 12:43 LittleRedBoy wrote:
This attack has nothing to do with Islam or religion. The attacker himself said that he wanted David Cameron to call back British troops from Muslim countries like Afganistan. Further, he said that women in Muslim countries see attacks like those every day so it makes sense that he would be angry and want to get revenge. On May 23 2013 12:45 KwarK wrote:On May 23 2013 12:32 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
Because if you think that then you'll support and demand wars in a whole manner of Muslim countries and then they can really get their Islam vs the West World War 3 show on the road that they're just waiting to kick off. I really don't think you watched the video at all. He was clearly frustrated at the indifference and even apathy of the British voting public to the ongoing conflicts that their government is involved in globally. If he wanted to make people afraid he could have killed a civilian, he didn't, he picked a soldier. A soldier dying isn't important, soldiers are supposed to die, it's the news equivalent of dog licks balls. This wasn't about fear, that was about getting a pedestal to shout his rant from. Watch the video of his rant. He's trying to stir up a debate about the morality of our involvement in those countries by using an act of inhumane violence as a parallel. It's a horrific act but one with a clear and singular purpose which I think you've completely missed. “We swear by Almighty Allah, we will never stop fighting you until you leave us alone. The only reasons we killed this man is because Muslims are dying daily. This British soldier is an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. We apologize that woman had to see this today, but in our lands our women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Yep, nothing to do with religion. It has more to do with people's family members being killed than it has to do with anything else. You seem to have left out the part where he says "tell [the British government] to bring our troops back so you can all live in peace." He explicitly says that if they remove their troops then these attacks won't happen. That doesn't stop this being about religion for the reasons I've explained above. It is beyond ridiculous to talk about the secular policies of Islamic fundamentalism. You can argue that this guy's world view has been shaped by Islam. But the motivation for this attack was political, first and foremost. He doesn't say "we killed this man because we hate Western values and we want to impose our religion on the rest of the world" or anything close to that. When Hitler invaded Russia, was it political or racial?
What does Hitler have to do with this attack? Some attacks are political and some are racial.
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On May 23 2013 13:10 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 13:05 DeepElemBlues wrote:On May 23 2013 13:02 LittleRedBoy wrote:On May 23 2013 12:52 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 23 2013 12:43 LittleRedBoy wrote:
This attack has nothing to do with Islam or religion. The attacker himself said that he wanted David Cameron to call back British troops from Muslim countries like Afganistan. Further, he said that women in Muslim countries see attacks like those every day so it makes sense that he would be angry and want to get revenge. On May 23 2013 12:45 KwarK wrote:On May 23 2013 12:32 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
Because if you think that then you'll support and demand wars in a whole manner of Muslim countries and then they can really get their Islam vs the West World War 3 show on the road that they're just waiting to kick off. I really don't think you watched the video at all. He was clearly frustrated at the indifference and even apathy of the British voting public to the ongoing conflicts that their government is involved in globally. If he wanted to make people afraid he could have killed a civilian, he didn't, he picked a soldier. A soldier dying isn't important, soldiers are supposed to die, it's the news equivalent of dog licks balls. This wasn't about fear, that was about getting a pedestal to shout his rant from. Watch the video of his rant. He's trying to stir up a debate about the morality of our involvement in those countries by using an act of inhumane violence as a parallel. It's a horrific act but one with a clear and singular purpose which I think you've completely missed. “We swear by Almighty Allah, we will never stop fighting you until you leave us alone. The only reasons we killed this man is because Muslims are dying daily. This British soldier is an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. We apologize that woman had to see this today, but in our lands our women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Yep, nothing to do with religion. It has more to do with people's family members being killed than it has to do with anything else. You seem to have left out the part where he says "tell [the British government] to bring our troops back so you can all live in peace." He explicitly says that if they remove their troops then these attacks won't happen. Too bad that's a lie isn't it. Well yes, obviously he's not in charge of all political and religious disputes everywhere, he doesn't have the power to go "it's alright now dudes on both sides, everyone calm down, we found a way to give the same land to both Palestinians and Israelis and to reconcile free speech with religious protection". However, while religion clearly influenced his decision and pervades his world view the points he were making were political. There is no denying there is a link but equally dismissing it as religious ignores the fact that everything he said was about politics.
There is no distinction between politics and religion to an Islamic Fundamentalist.
Religion and politics are not different spheres to this guy and people like them. There's no crossover, no overlap at work here, they are one and the same.
You are completely missing them point here and applying a western world view to someone who doesn't at all see the world the way the west does.
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On May 23 2013 13:13 LittleRedBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 13:11 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 23 2013 13:08 LittleRedBoy wrote:On May 23 2013 13:04 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 23 2013 13:02 LittleRedBoy wrote:On May 23 2013 12:52 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 23 2013 12:43 LittleRedBoy wrote:
This attack has nothing to do with Islam or religion. The attacker himself said that he wanted David Cameron to call back British troops from Muslim countries like Afganistan. Further, he said that women in Muslim countries see attacks like those every day so it makes sense that he would be angry and want to get revenge. On May 23 2013 12:45 KwarK wrote:On May 23 2013 12:32 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
Because if you think that then you'll support and demand wars in a whole manner of Muslim countries and then they can really get their Islam vs the West World War 3 show on the road that they're just waiting to kick off. I really don't think you watched the video at all. He was clearly frustrated at the indifference and even apathy of the British voting public to the ongoing conflicts that their government is involved in globally. If he wanted to make people afraid he could have killed a civilian, he didn't, he picked a soldier. A soldier dying isn't important, soldiers are supposed to die, it's the news equivalent of dog licks balls. This wasn't about fear, that was about getting a pedestal to shout his rant from. Watch the video of his rant. He's trying to stir up a debate about the morality of our involvement in those countries by using an act of inhumane violence as a parallel. It's a horrific act but one with a clear and singular purpose which I think you've completely missed. “We swear by Almighty Allah, we will never stop fighting you until you leave us alone. The only reasons we killed this man is because Muslims are dying daily. This British soldier is an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. We apologize that woman had to see this today, but in our lands our women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Yep, nothing to do with religion. It has more to do with people's family members being killed than it has to do with anything else. You seem to have left out the part where he says "tell [the British government] to bring our troops back so you can all live in peace." He explicitly says that if they remove their troops then these attacks won't happen. That doesn't stop this being about religion for the reasons I've explained above. It is beyond ridiculous to talk about the secular policies of Islamic fundamentalism. You can argue that this guy's world view has been shaped by Islam. But the motivation for this attack was political, first and foremost. He doesn't say "we killed this man because we hate Western values and we want to impose our religion on the rest of the world" or anything close to that. When Hitler invaded Russia, was it political or racial? What does Hitler have to do with this attack? Some attacks are political and some are racial.
Because Hitler invaded Russia because he saw race and social darwinism in everything. You cannot ever seperate Hitler's political acts from his racial world view because his racism was the driving force behind everything he did. He invaded Russia because he saw the Slavs as a weaker race (racism) and believed the Germans needed the living space in the east and resources in Russia to assert their dominance in Europe as the master race (racism), there was nothing at all wrong to this in his mind because it was natural and the right of superior races to assert their dominance over weaker races (racism/social darwinism).
Any attempt to remove Hitler's policies from that racism/social darwinistic context are absolutely beyond absurdity because those world views pervaded everything he did and he saw race and a survival in the fittest in every aspect of global and domestic politics from his handling of international affairs, to the way he ran his party at all levels to the way he conducted his private life.
This analogy is perfect for Islamic fundamentalists because much like you can't ever seperate Hitler from his racism/social Darwinism you can't seperate an Islamic fundamentalist from Islam.
There are no seperate spheres in their life, secularism does not exist in their world view. Religion is a part of everything they do and they see Islam in everything. There is no distinction between religion and politics to these people/groups. It is insane to talk about the non religious side of people who's every world view is directly and near solely based on their interpretation of the Koran.
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Come on did you have to use that example... I understand the relevance but you don't just mention Hitler to make a small point about a tangent of the main topic.
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On May 23 2013 13:25 Djzapz wrote:
Come on did you have to use that example... I understand the relevance but you don't just mention Hitler to make a small point about a tangent of the main topic.
When people start talking about the non religious views of the most extreme religious fundamentalists the world has to offer you gotta break out of the big guns.
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You know Religion is almost never a reason for any of the islamist terrorist attacks. correlation is not causation. Because the west has been waging war against islamic countries for a thousand years, they are a bit defensive when we keep occupying their countries and controlling their govts. religion is a justification, not a motivation. No one decides to commit these acts "because of islam" its ALWAYS a political reason islamic nations and people haven't killed for religious reasons for almost the entirety of islams existence. The only people using religion to justify anything have been christians and predominantly christian nations. they belittle the middle east because of their religion, and have done so for a thousand years. The Quran states the need to defend yourself, but not to be the aggressor. Any activities like this are inherently one of two things: either retaliatory acts for political reasons, or against islam. and if it was ABOUT RELIGION then it could be neither, therefore it cannot be a religious motivation.
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On May 23 2013 13:33 PrinceXizor wrote:
You know Religion is almost never a reason for any of the islamist terrorist attacks. correlation is not causation. Because the west has been waging war against islamic countries for a thousand years, they are a bit defensive when we keep occupying their countries and controlling their govts. religion is a justification, not a motivation. No one decides to commit these acts "because of islam" its ALWAYS a political reason islamic nations and people haven't killed for religious reasons for almost the entirety of islams existence. The only people using religion to justify anything have been christians and predominantly christian nations. they belittle the middle east because of their religion, and have done so for a thousand years.
Ridiculous post.
User was temp banned for this post.
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I like how you guys talk as if Western secularism isn't Protestant and that the politics of the Islamic nations are specially religious in such a way that is utterly different from the West. That's a mirage.
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On May 23 2013 13:34 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 13:33 PrinceXizor wrote:
You know Religion is almost never a reason for any of the islamist terrorist attacks. correlation is not causation. Because the west has been waging war against islamic countries for a thousand years, they are a bit defensive when we keep occupying their countries and controlling their govts. religion is a justification, not a motivation. No one decides to commit these acts "because of islam" its ALWAYS a political reason islamic nations and people haven't killed for religious reasons for almost the entirety of islams existence. The only people using religion to justify anything have been christians and predominantly christian nations. they belittle the middle east because of their religion, and have done so for a thousand years. Ridiculous post.
Posts like that demonstrating a complete lack of understanding regarding the origins and history of Islam invariably show up in these threads. It's like schools aren't teaching kids anything about Muslim history other than the crusades [EDIT: or European imperialism].
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That's funny coming from you becau-
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EPT
