EPT"allah akbar" whilst murdering someone is in no way equal to "omg what a cute kitty"
UK Soldier beheaded in London - Page 18
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Please attempt to distinguish between extremists and non extremists to avoid starting the inevitable waste of time that is "can Islam be judged by its believers?" - KwarK | ||
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ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
"allah akbar" whilst murdering someone is in no way equal to "omg what a cute kitty" | ||
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Nachtwind
Germany1130 Posts
On May 23 2013 11:46 Tewks44 wrote: They yelled "God is Great" (A common Muslim expression) in Arabic. How could this possibly not have anything to do with religion? Well i wouldn´t need a crash course in arabic language because i´m living in a hot spot of muslim immigrants here but thanks. But only because someone yelled something while he´s full of adrenalin means something? I´m doubting this whole scenario of terrorist attack and all till they found out good proof for what there happened. Then i´ll take my words back. But for now it falls more under political/society discontent in my eyes then a attack based on religion. | ||
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Roe
Canada6002 Posts
On May 23 2013 11:57 Nachtwind wrote: Well i wouldn´t need a crash course in arabic language because i´m living in a hot spot of muslim immigrants here but thanks. But only because someone yelled something while he´s full of adrenalin means something? I´m doubting this whole scenario of terrorist attack and all till they found out good proof for what there happened. Then i´ll take my words back. But for now it falls more under political/society discontent in my eyes then a attack based on religion. Why not hold judgement all the way and say we have no clue? You have no more reason to believe it's political discontent than religion, and you discarded that piece of evidence. | ||
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Aeroplaneoverthesea
United Kingdom1977 Posts
On May 23 2013 11:57 Nachtwind wrote: Well i wouldn´t need a crash course in arabic language because i´m living in a hot spot of muslim immigrants here but thanks. But only because someone yelled something while he´s full of adrenalin means something? I´m doubting this whole scenario of terrorist attack and all till they found out good proof for what there happened. Then i´ll take my words back. But for now it falls more under political/society discontent in my eyes then a attack based on religion. So what circumstances exactly would cause a murder to be 'based on religion'? Because apparently the murderer shouting god is great while he kills the man before stating to a journalist that it was in retaliation to attacks on his culture doesn't cut it... | ||
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Larkin
United Kingdom7161 Posts
"It is used in various contexts by Muslims: in formal prayer, as an informal expression of faith, in times of distress, to express celebration or victory, and to express resolute determination or defiance." (From Wikipedia) It's just a semantical issue and I'm not sure what he did or didn't yell matters. | ||
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Nachtwind
Germany1130 Posts
But this whole case is kinda off because they were waiting. I´m looking forward to see informations that we´ll get soon. | ||
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Aveng3r
United States2411 Posts
or maybe they were just nuts, who knows. either way I hope they receive no mercy when it comes time to sentence them. | ||
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Roe
Canada6002 Posts
On May 23 2013 12:15 Nachtwind wrote: I´m just not as fast with judging as you guys, hope you can live with it that somebody have this kind of mindset. When they say this guys have a connection to Al-Qaida and/or he´s made a confession where he says this was an attack based on religion then it´s for me a attack based on religion. But this whole case is kinda off because they were waiting. I´m looking forward to see informations that we´ll get soon. But you already concluded that it was politically motivated...I'm just saying you should hold off on your own judgements as well if you think shouting a religious statement should be discarded and ignored. | ||
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Aeroplaneoverthesea
United Kingdom1977 Posts
On May 23 2013 11:54 ShadeR wrote: Ehh... Religious apologists please stop with the false equivalences. "allah akbar" whilst murdering someone is in no way equal to "omg what a cute kitty" No mate I'm afraid you don't get it. You see religion is special, it's not like politics, racism, intolerance, money, love, power or any of the other reasons it's universally accepted that people kill for. You see unlike everything else in the world where people accept the good and the bad sides of them with religion you're only allowed to acknowledge the good. It's real simple. When captalism provides increased living standards, luxury goods and technology beyond the imagination of our ancestors that's a good thing that capitalism has done for us. When people work in Sweat shops for $2 a day and we trash out planets natural resources, that's a bad side of capitalism. When communists stop Nazi Germany from controlling all of Europe's natural resources and pay a massive price in preventing Hitler from taking over the continent that's a good thing. When they restrict the political freedom of half the continent and let millions die from man made famines and political repressions that's bad. When religion provide hope to billions and cause them to be 'good' people then religions doing a great job. When religion leads someone to hack a man he's never met to death in the street or causes men to want to fly planes into buildings killing thousands then that has absolutely nothing at all to do with religion and don't you dare suggest it. This is about hatred (whatever that is exactly) and has nothing at all to do with 'real religion' (the no true scotsman kind of religion) and don't you dare forget it. | ||
KwarK
United States43510 Posts
On May 23 2013 11:53 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote: Is this a joke? He's yelling God is Great whilst beheading a man he doesn't know is broad daylight in a crowded street, after which he starts ranting at a journalist about how awful the West is. I'm pretty sure this is about religion yes. If you watched his rant you'd see he was saying that he wanted to make the British public aware of the kind of things that our foreign policy was causing overseas and he ended it with a plea for us to not support our government. It was explicitly political. | ||
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Aeroplaneoverthesea
United Kingdom1977 Posts
On May 23 2013 12:15 Nachtwind wrote: I´m just not as fast with judging as you guys, hope you can live with it that somebody have this kind of mindset. When they say this guys have a connection to Al-Qaida and/or he´s made a confession where he says this was an attack based on religion then it´s for me a attack based on religion. But this whole case is kinda off because they were waiting. I´m looking forward to see informations that we´ll get soon. Do you understand the reason people commit terrorist attacks at all? They're not looking to strike a blow to UK or US forces, they're not blowing up military sites, plans, technology or even leading politicians. The entire point of a terrorist attack is not for direct gain but to provoke a reaction. Al Qaeda didn't go to all that trouble because they thought that flying planes into the world trade centre would crash the global economy and let Al Qaeda just take over the USA. They do it because they want the USA and the UK to massively overreact, to launch wars they can't win and to push back so far against the Islamic Extremists and the countries that harbour them (Afghanistan) or even ones that don't (Iraq) that they will win a load of new supporters to their cause from the Islamic world (which worked a charm) and even better than that to cause a global war between the West and Islam. That is what the terrorists want. And you don't get any of that chain of events if you don't own up to what you're doing. The stronger the message sent by Islamic extremists, and the more terror they spread the more the people in the west will be baying for blood and demanding reprisals against extremist groups and anyone else deemed to be associated with them (like the aforementioned countries and Iran). If the guy runs off then sure it's a big deal but not as big a deal as the guy himself actually giving his own TV interview after having committed the act in question. They want to create a massive spectacle, they want the drama of it all, they want you to feel like you're not safe in your own home and that there's guys wielding meat cleavers wanting to kill you on every street corner. Because if you think that then you'll support and demand wars in a whole manner of Muslim countries and then they can really get their Islam vs the West World War 3 show on the road that they're just waiting to kick off. | ||
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Aeroplaneoverthesea
United Kingdom1977 Posts
On May 23 2013 12:21 KwarK wrote: If you watched his rant you'd see he was saying that he wanted to make the British public aware of the kind of things that our foreign policy was causing overseas and he ended it with a plea for us to not support our government. It was explicitly political. The whole War on Terror (I really hate that term but there's not really a good phrase to cover the entire West vs Islamic Extremist saga) is about both religion and politics. There's a lot of politics involved, but the entire foundation of it is in certain groups interpretation of Islam and their belief in the need to defend it. | ||
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fluidin
Singapore1084 Posts
They are not as different as you think. | ||
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LittleRedBoy
United States229 Posts
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Nachtwind
Germany1130 Posts
On May 23 2013 12:32 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote: Do you understand the reason people commit terrorist attacks at all? They're not looking to strike a blow to UK or US forces, they're not blowing up military sites, plans, technology or even leading politicians. The entire point of a terrorist attack is not for direct gain but to provoke a reaction. Al Qaeda didn't go to all that trouble because they thought that flying planes into the world trade centre would crash the global economy and let Al Qaeda just take over the USA. They do it because they want the USA and the UK to massively overreact, to launch wars they can't win and to push back so far against the Islamic Extremists and the countries that harbour them (Afghanistan) or even ones that don't (Iraq) that they will win a load of new supporters to their cause from the Islamic world (which worked a charm) and even better than that to cause a global war between the West and Islam. That is what the terrorists want. And you don't get any of that chain of events if you don't own up to what you're doing. The stronger the message sent by Islamic extremists, and the more terror they spread the more the people in the west will be baying for blood and demanding reprisals against extremist groups and anyone else deemed to be associated with them (like the aforementioned countries and Iran). If the guy runs off then sure it's a big deal but not as big a deal as the guy himself actually giving his own TV interview after having committed the act in question. They want to create a massive spectacle, they want the drama of it all, they want you to feel like you're not safe in your own home and that there's guys wielding meat cleavers wanting to kill you on every street corner. Because if you think that then you'll support and demand wars in a whole manner of Muslim countries and then they can really get their Islam vs the West World War 3 show on the road that they're just waiting to kick off. Don´t know why you asking me polemic questions and trying to explain me terrorism but okay. Maybe you should chill a bit down. The only thing i´m saying was that i think (conclude like someone here said) that this is more political based and i for myself don´t have enough informations to judge and say out loud "THIS is religon based!". I can understand that people making this conclusion but i just want to have all options open till i get some evidence for myself. I don´t need other people to think for me thanks. | ||
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KwarK
United States43510 Posts
On May 23 2013 12:32 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote: Because if you think that then you'll support and demand wars in a whole manner of Muslim countries and then they can really get their Islam vs the West World War 3 show on the road that they're just waiting to kick off. I really don't think you watched the video at all. He was clearly frustrated at the indifference and even apathy of the British voting public to the ongoing conflicts that their government is involved in globally. If he wanted to make people afraid he could have killed a civilian, he didn't, he picked a soldier. A soldier dying isn't important, soldiers are supposed to die, it's the news equivalent of dog licks balls. This wasn't about fear, that was about getting a pedestal to shout his rant from. Watch the video of his rant. He's trying to stir up a debate about the morality of our involvement in those countries by using an act of inhumane violence as a parallel. It's a horrific act but one with a clear and singular purpose which I think you've completely missed. | ||
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stroggozz
New Zealand19 Posts
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Aeroplaneoverthesea
United Kingdom1977 Posts
On May 23 2013 12:43 LittleRedBoy wrote: This attack has nothing to do with Islam or religion. The attacker himself said that he wanted David Cameron to call back British troops from Muslim countries like Afganistan. Further, he said that women in Muslim countries see attacks like those every day so it makes sense that he would be angry and want to get revenge. On May 23 2013 12:45 KwarK wrote: I really don't think you watched the video at all. He was clearly frustrated at the indifference and even apathy of the British voting public to the ongoing conflicts that their government is involved in globally. If he wanted to make people afraid he could have killed a civilian, he didn't, he picked a soldier. A soldier dying isn't important, soldiers are supposed to die, it's the news equivalent of dog licks balls. This wasn't about fear, that was about getting a pedestal to shout his rant from. Watch the video of his rant. He's trying to stir up a debate about the morality of our involvement in those countries by using an act of inhumane violence as a parallel. It's a horrific act but one with a clear and singular purpose which I think you've completely missed. “We swear by Almighty Allah, we will never stop fighting you until you leave us alone. The only reasons we killed this man is because Muslims are dying daily. This British soldier is an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. We apologize that woman had to see this today, but in our lands our women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Yep, nothing to do with religion. | ||
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FallDownMarigold
United States3710 Posts
On May 23 2013 09:21 mcc wrote: Psychopath cannot be healed or rehabilitated in any way. It is permanent condition. Psychopaths are really interesting. If it is true psychopathy caused by lack of neural networks at the brain responsible for empathy then this deficit is permanent. An intelligent psychopath can learn to adapt though. If it is smart and you teach it about its condition and what living in society with people entails, then it can get by completely fine, and maybe even at a competitive advantage due to lack of emotional constraints. So while true psychopathy may be permanent, it's possible to adapt to it and do very well in life in any case. | ||
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KwarK
United States43510 Posts
On May 23 2013 12:52 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote: “We swear by Almighty Allah, we will never stop fighting you until you leave us alone. The only reasons we killed this man is because Muslims are dying daily. This British soldier is an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. We apologize that woman had to see this today, but in our lands our women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Yep, nothing to do with religion. The oath that invokes Allah doesn't say he's doing it because Allah told him to, he's just making an oath to keep fighting. The reason he's fighting is because Muslims are dying, they're not dying of religious disagreement, they're dying due to foreign policy decisions. This British soldier, as an instrument of the British foreign policy, is being held responsible for that. We are sorry there is blood in your streets but you must understand there is blood in our streets too. You people will never be safe. How is that not a political point about our foreign policy, even when you deliberately cut out the end bit where he expressly called for opposition to the government? Religion is a sideshow. He's religious and that clearly has influenced his sense of the western world vs Muslims but his point isn't about dogma, it's about boots on the ground, it's about matters of government policy. He expressly says that in the bit you cut out. | ||
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