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On May 03 2013 08:29 eX Killy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 07:48 Erasme wrote:On May 03 2013 00:20 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On May 03 2013 00:17 B.I.G. wrote:On May 02 2013 19:05 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On May 02 2013 19:02 ShiroKaisen wrote:On May 02 2013 18:59 MasterOfPuppets wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Before I record the videos I create for various different companies I change my shirt from the loosely fitting singlet I usually wear during the day, to a high-collared t-shirt that will minimise my chances of being objectified. It’s less comfortable, it’s not what I would generally choose to wear, but I do it in attempt to avoid comments about my breasts, my chest, and my physique in general – I try to negate any harassment I possibly can.
So you purposefully make yourself physically uncomfortable and repress a little of your sexuality because you're bothered by random internet users? Seriously? Are you new to the internet? Do you not understand how this thing works? That's like IdrA not playing StarCraft anymore because someone told him he's not a good player. lmao
Obviously, it doesn’t work. Instead of having people disregard gender entirely as it really shouldn’t be relevant to a video about game news, there are streams of responses from men complaining that a woman hasn’t revealed herself to them, as though it’s expected or it’s their right to ask for that. Not only is this incredibly discouraging – these videos take hours and hours of effort to create – it’s easy to feel like you simply can’t win. You can only ignore the comments, but that would make responding to the pleasant viewers or the ones who ask genuine questions impossible.
Nope. It's not impossible. Many people manage to ignore trolls and uneducated children, even on Twitch whose chat is a cancerous cesspool, or YouTube comments ffs.
If jerks on the internet are given a free-pass and allowed to hide behind anonymity when they’re being sexist to someone, then there’s absolutely no reason you can’t use that same anonymity to criticise or educate them. Honestly, just seeing one down-vote or having one person stick up for me is a part of the reason I’m still here and I’m not going to stop fighting. Every single person has the power to fight sexism.
Is this woman stupid? People on the internet are given a free-pass to do and say far more than just being sexist to some uptight, sensitive and easily-offended woman like her who apparently doesn't understand how the internet works or that you can't censor it. I mean lmao, I'm not a big deal, but in my many years of competitive gaming I've had hundreds if not thousands of people call me a no-life, a basement dweller, a loser (all of which baseless assumptions ofc) and wishing things like death and cancer and rape on me and my family, JUST BECAUSE I BEAT THEM AT VIDEO GAMES. Do you think that affected me in any way, shape or form? No lol. I just laugh and brush it off, and it even makes me feel better about myself that these people are so easily irritated. Protip to her: stop being butthurt, either get off the Internet or learn to deal with. Seriously. Re-assess your life: does it really mean that much to you that some kiddies on the other side of the world purposefully post mean or "sexist" things about you just to get you riled up? Because you're kinda getting trolled here hun, getting trolled big time if you acknowledge their presence. So because it sucks, we shouldn't complain about it and try to change it? That's a shitty attitude. If you complain about it, the trolls have won. Trying to change it on any wide scale is futile, it's simply not going to happen. You can have a well-moderated community like TL, of course, where these people are banned without a second thought, but you will never exterminate this from the Internet, you simply can't. Wow I just have to say that that's a terrible attitude to have. This might be a relatively innocent example, but people with an attitude like this are the reason terrible things can happen on a grand scale. If everyone had this attitude of "just let it slide" black people would still be slaves, there would be no more jews, and unruly women would still be burnt at the stake. I realise very well that none of these issues have been resolved completely, but at least we're working on it. Again, I realise that the current matter is far less severe but I just think that this is a dangerous kind of attitude to have in general. No. Internet trolls have literally *zero* effect on anything, so long as you don't give them any attention. Stop pretending like there's an equation between internet and real life. I guess you never heard of korea. and korea has never heard of the rest of the world? i dont see your point.
Internet abuse-related suicide, especially that of celebrities, is a well documented and troublingly prevalent phenomena in South Korea.
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On May 03 2013 07:53 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 06:32 superstartran wrote:On May 02 2013 20:41 zatic wrote:On May 02 2013 20:35 superstartran wrote:On May 02 2013 20:31 Ahelvin wrote:On May 02 2013 20:28 superstartran wrote:On May 02 2013 20:12 Ahelvin wrote:On May 02 2013 20:10 Prevolved wrote:On May 02 2013 20:07 Ahelvin wrote:On May 02 2013 20:05 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Not relevant. Can you not see that he just rationalised sexist abuse because this girl asked for it by doing something other than going "please send me sexist abuse"? If so, how can you not see that? People like him are literally the problem. Stop responding to him, he is just acting like this because he is a stupid male. Male are always like that : they want to be right even if it means denying the fundamentals of what constitute reality. + Show Spoiler +How does it feel being disqualified on your gender? Yeah man, because two wrongs make a right. ... Did you even read what I wrote previously? There, let me help you. Wrong. Entirely wrong. Feminism is all about making people conscious of the prejudice associated with each gender (and men are also subjected to it, the proof being the existence of words such as "man up" or "get some balls" : men are always expected to act strong, tough...) in order for individuals to be more free of doing what they really want to do and being what they really want to be, independently of what the society would like them to be given their gender.What people do not also realize is that feminism is not about THREATENING MEN. It's about asking for gender not being a valid basis for prejudice, may it be for men and women. Feminism is also realizing men do not have to "man up" all the time, and have the right to display interest in things that are not "manly". Do you feel comfortable being around jocks constantly reminding you that you are not a real man because you do not watch sports, or workout, or that videogames are for sissies? Then congratulation, you are in some way a feminist. Stop pretending these things do not exist. That's actually historically untrue. Women were going to be given suffrage in the United States for example well before the 1900s, but they absolutely refused to even contemplate the possibility of having to participate in things such as the military draft and other historically 'male' obligations. Not only that, the feminists of the early 1900s didn't give a flying fuck that men below the age of 21 were dying in World War I in the hundreds of thousands, they just wanted their own right to vote and didn't care. Any notion that feminism ever was about equality is just an illusion that most feminists like to utilize in their arguments, when in reality it isn't at all. Where do you see a past tense in my post? I said "Feminist IS", not "Feminist WAS, HAS BEEN, or HAS ALWAYS BEEN". When you debate a democrat or a republican, do you debate what people of his or her party said 100 years ago? You do understand that even today that generally most feminists (I don't have an exact number, but I'm willing to bet 90%+) believe that a man should pay for child support, that he should do this, that, etc. and that the woman actually has all the power in divorce, child alimony, etc. etc. Not to mention, that feminists even today will fight tooth and nail to prevent women from ever being a part of the draft, despite the fact that they like men have the right to vote. Feminism in general today is a load of bullshit, and it gets exposed big time when you start looking at their positions on child custody, child support, divorce, etc. etc. Alright this is simply completely wrong. Feminism is by definition about gender equality. Feminists oppose all of the things you just listed. You seem to mix up the terms "women" and "feminists" a lot I believe. No, they don't. Don't even fucking lie. Extreme feminists feel that women should have all the power in divorce, child alimony, etc. so don't say that I am wrong. You're the one that is wrong, because I can easily list like 800 articles of feminists opposing more equality on that front. For example, various FEMINIST groups protest and do all sorts of illegal crap to prevent MRA presentations at Universities, but no one ever says anything about. Then again, don't we all just love double standards. Oh, and about women being able to join the Navy? What? http://www.swarthmore.edu/library/peace/DG051-099/dg068.wcoc/dg068.wcochistory.htmRemember, this is the EQUAL RIGHTS AMENDMENT that major feminists groups opposed. Women also historically opposed the military draft during the 1940s because they didn't want to fight in WW2. So all this whole 'feminist wanting equality' is a load of bullshit. Feminists in general have always done what they feel has benefited them, and only benefited them. They could care less about equality among all people. Well, you are wrong. I don't need 800 articles. One dated 2010 or later would suffice.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1310&dat=19760223&id=cNZVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=K-ADAAAAIBAJ&pg=6643,6064538
http://www.firstpost.com/living/dear-lipstick-feminists-alimony-is-not-anti-women-it-empowers-them-746377.html
http://sites.duke.edu/develledish/2011/02/08/is-alimony-unfair-not-so-much-try-feminist/
This last article is even better. From a self-proclaimed Feminist about how DNA tests should be banned.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/6391918/whos-the-daddy/
There's plenty of evidence of proclaimed Feminists that clearly do not give a flying fuck about equality at all. This is evident even today when various feminists argue that women should be able to serve in combat units, but shouldn't have to be forced into the draft (i.e. only wants to have the privilege not the obligation). You can argue till your face is blue, but there are multiple examples of feminists in general not caring about 'equality' at all.
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On May 03 2013 08:33 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 08:29 eX Killy wrote:On May 03 2013 07:48 Erasme wrote:On May 03 2013 00:20 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On May 03 2013 00:17 B.I.G. wrote:On May 02 2013 19:05 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On May 02 2013 19:02 ShiroKaisen wrote:On May 02 2013 18:59 MasterOfPuppets wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Before I record the videos I create for various different companies I change my shirt from the loosely fitting singlet I usually wear during the day, to a high-collared t-shirt that will minimise my chances of being objectified. It’s less comfortable, it’s not what I would generally choose to wear, but I do it in attempt to avoid comments about my breasts, my chest, and my physique in general – I try to negate any harassment I possibly can.
So you purposefully make yourself physically uncomfortable and repress a little of your sexuality because you're bothered by random internet users? Seriously? Are you new to the internet? Do you not understand how this thing works? That's like IdrA not playing StarCraft anymore because someone told him he's not a good player. lmao
Obviously, it doesn’t work. Instead of having people disregard gender entirely as it really shouldn’t be relevant to a video about game news, there are streams of responses from men complaining that a woman hasn’t revealed herself to them, as though it’s expected or it’s their right to ask for that. Not only is this incredibly discouraging – these videos take hours and hours of effort to create – it’s easy to feel like you simply can’t win. You can only ignore the comments, but that would make responding to the pleasant viewers or the ones who ask genuine questions impossible.
Nope. It's not impossible. Many people manage to ignore trolls and uneducated children, even on Twitch whose chat is a cancerous cesspool, or YouTube comments ffs.
If jerks on the internet are given a free-pass and allowed to hide behind anonymity when they’re being sexist to someone, then there’s absolutely no reason you can’t use that same anonymity to criticise or educate them. Honestly, just seeing one down-vote or having one person stick up for me is a part of the reason I’m still here and I’m not going to stop fighting. Every single person has the power to fight sexism.
Is this woman stupid? People on the internet are given a free-pass to do and say far more than just being sexist to some uptight, sensitive and easily-offended woman like her who apparently doesn't understand how the internet works or that you can't censor it. I mean lmao, I'm not a big deal, but in my many years of competitive gaming I've had hundreds if not thousands of people call me a no-life, a basement dweller, a loser (all of which baseless assumptions ofc) and wishing things like death and cancer and rape on me and my family, JUST BECAUSE I BEAT THEM AT VIDEO GAMES. Do you think that affected me in any way, shape or form? No lol. I just laugh and brush it off, and it even makes me feel better about myself that these people are so easily irritated. Protip to her: stop being butthurt, either get off the Internet or learn to deal with. Seriously. Re-assess your life: does it really mean that much to you that some kiddies on the other side of the world purposefully post mean or "sexist" things about you just to get you riled up? Because you're kinda getting trolled here hun, getting trolled big time if you acknowledge their presence. So because it sucks, we shouldn't complain about it and try to change it? That's a shitty attitude. If you complain about it, the trolls have won. Trying to change it on any wide scale is futile, it's simply not going to happen. You can have a well-moderated community like TL, of course, where these people are banned without a second thought, but you will never exterminate this from the Internet, you simply can't. Wow I just have to say that that's a terrible attitude to have. This might be a relatively innocent example, but people with an attitude like this are the reason terrible things can happen on a grand scale. If everyone had this attitude of "just let it slide" black people would still be slaves, there would be no more jews, and unruly women would still be burnt at the stake. I realise very well that none of these issues have been resolved completely, but at least we're working on it. Again, I realise that the current matter is far less severe but I just think that this is a dangerous kind of attitude to have in general. No. Internet trolls have literally *zero* effect on anything, so long as you don't give them any attention. Stop pretending like there's an equation between internet and real life. I guess you never heard of korea. and korea has never heard of the rest of the world? i dont see your point. Internet abuse-related suicide, especially that of celebrities, is a well documented and troublingly prevalent phenomena in South Korea.
I'm pretty sure killing yourself over what a troll says would constitute giving them attention.
On the topic of feminism and the internet though - reality is feminism has strong negative connotations currently because there are quite a lot of vocal feminists and feminist groups that care nothing for equality, they want women to be in all ways more benefited than men. Now given the gaming community is primarily males it stands to reason feminism is going to viewed as even worse than in other communities.
Also, feminists tend to be extremely passionate and defensive, anyone that's trolled before knows these are the people you will be able to troll the most successfully.
Women are not precious flowers that need to be protected or they will shatter, stop being chumps. On the internet everyone is equal, even women.
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On May 03 2013 08:25 Falling wrote:
I don't understand why these sorts of articles generate so much push back and so many troll defenders. Ok, so maybe they aren't intentionally defending the trolls, but they are vehemently arguing that defeat is inevitable and to just 'deal with it.' Perhaps defeat is inevitable, but defeatism is hardly a point that needs further endorsement.
And yet these threads invariably have very strenously argued against these sorts of articles therein creating part of the unintentional bulwark behind which the 'trolls' continue to operate. "Trolls" I feel has largely been over-applied to the general internet population. What if many of these 'trolls' are not trolling at all, but simply hold very repugnant ideas about women. Do they require our implicit passionate endorsement by strenously arguing that others need to simply 'deal with it.'
While personal defeatism is certainly acceptable in the face of such rampant bad behaviour on the internet, why attack or get in the way of those who would inform in the hopes reform. If defeat is inevitable, let it be defeated inevitably. It certainly will not require your help.
Personally, I "indirectly defend" trolls because I feel like people who complain about sexism on the internet are also pointing fingers at the rest of us. Maybe that's not what they're doing, I don't know, but when people say that the internet is full of sexists, when in reality it's just a vocal minority of idiots who don't even believe what they're saying, I kinda get all hot and bothered. I don't want an undeserved negative stigma attached to gamers in general.
Another reason I indirectly defend trolls would be that I, personally, don't view trolls as that much of an issue. I dismiss them with ease and take my discussion to a place where I don't have to worry about them. To me, they're nothing more than the background noise of the internet.
Seeing someone else not only fail to ignore trolls but also fall for their ploy and then accuse everyone, including the innocents, of sexism, a major moral infraction, gets under my skin really easily.
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On May 03 2013 08:38 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 07:53 zatic wrote:On May 03 2013 06:32 superstartran wrote:On May 02 2013 20:41 zatic wrote:On May 02 2013 20:35 superstartran wrote:On May 02 2013 20:31 Ahelvin wrote:On May 02 2013 20:28 superstartran wrote:On May 02 2013 20:12 Ahelvin wrote:On May 02 2013 20:10 Prevolved wrote:On May 02 2013 20:07 Ahelvin wrote:[quote] Stop responding to him, he is just acting like this because he is a stupid male. Male are always like that : they want to be right even if it means denying the fundamentals of what constitute reality. + Show Spoiler +How does it feel being disqualified on your gender? Yeah man, because two wrongs make a right. ... Did you even read what I wrote previously? There, let me help you. Wrong. Entirely wrong. Feminism is all about making people conscious of the prejudice associated with each gender (and men are also subjected to it, the proof being the existence of words such as "man up" or "get some balls" : men are always expected to act strong, tough...) in order for individuals to be more free of doing what they really want to do and being what they really want to be, independently of what the society would like them to be given their gender.What people do not also realize is that feminism is not about THREATENING MEN. It's about asking for gender not being a valid basis for prejudice, may it be for men and women. Feminism is also realizing men do not have to "man up" all the time, and have the right to display interest in things that are not "manly". Do you feel comfortable being around jocks constantly reminding you that you are not a real man because you do not watch sports, or workout, or that videogames are for sissies? Then congratulation, you are in some way a feminist. Stop pretending these things do not exist. That's actually historically untrue. Women were going to be given suffrage in the United States for example well before the 1900s, but they absolutely refused to even contemplate the possibility of having to participate in things such as the military draft and other historically 'male' obligations. Not only that, the feminists of the early 1900s didn't give a flying fuck that men below the age of 21 were dying in World War I in the hundreds of thousands, they just wanted their own right to vote and didn't care. Any notion that feminism ever was about equality is just an illusion that most feminists like to utilize in their arguments, when in reality it isn't at all. Where do you see a past tense in my post? I said "Feminist IS", not "Feminist WAS, HAS BEEN, or HAS ALWAYS BEEN". When you debate a democrat or a republican, do you debate what people of his or her party said 100 years ago? You do understand that even today that generally most feminists (I don't have an exact number, but I'm willing to bet 90%+) believe that a man should pay for child support, that he should do this, that, etc. and that the woman actually has all the power in divorce, child alimony, etc. etc. Not to mention, that feminists even today will fight tooth and nail to prevent women from ever being a part of the draft, despite the fact that they like men have the right to vote. Feminism in general today is a load of bullshit, and it gets exposed big time when you start looking at their positions on child custody, child support, divorce, etc. etc. Alright this is simply completely wrong. Feminism is by definition about gender equality. Feminists oppose all of the things you just listed. You seem to mix up the terms "women" and "feminists" a lot I believe. No, they don't. Don't even fucking lie. Extreme feminists feel that women should have all the power in divorce, child alimony, etc. so don't say that I am wrong. You're the one that is wrong, because I can easily list like 800 articles of feminists opposing more equality on that front. For example, various FEMINIST groups protest and do all sorts of illegal crap to prevent MRA presentations at Universities, but no one ever says anything about. Then again, don't we all just love double standards. Oh, and about women being able to join the Navy? What? http://www.swarthmore.edu/library/peace/DG051-099/dg068.wcoc/dg068.wcochistory.htmRemember, this is the EQUAL RIGHTS AMENDMENT that major feminists groups opposed. Women also historically opposed the military draft during the 1940s because they didn't want to fight in WW2. So all this whole 'feminist wanting equality' is a load of bullshit. Feminists in general have always done what they feel has benefited them, and only benefited them. They could care less about equality among all people. Well, you are wrong. I don't need 800 articles. One dated 2010 or later would suffice. http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1310&dat=19760223&id=cNZVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=K-ADAAAAIBAJ&pg=6643,6064538http://www.firstpost.com/living/dear-lipstick-feminists-alimony-is-not-anti-women-it-empowers-them-746377.htmlhttp://sites.duke.edu/develledish/2011/02/08/is-alimony-unfair-not-so-much-try-feminist/This last article is even better. From a self-proclaimed Feminist about how DNA tests should be banned. http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/6391918/whos-the-daddy/There's plenty of evidence of proclaimed Feminists that clearly do not give a flying fuck about equality at all. This is evident even today when various feminists argue that women should be able to serve in combat units, but shouldn't have to be forced into the draft (i.e. only wants to have the privilege not the obligation). You can argue till your face is blue, but there are multiple examples of feminists in general not caring about 'equality' at all.
None of those sources substantiates your claim that the majority of feminism is anti-egalitarian. Every ideology and movement has its fringes, and it'll take more than a few cherry-picked examples of stupidity to prove that feminism as a whole is against equal rights.
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On May 03 2013 08:41 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 08:38 superstartran wrote:On May 03 2013 07:53 zatic wrote:On May 03 2013 06:32 superstartran wrote:On May 02 2013 20:41 zatic wrote:On May 02 2013 20:35 superstartran wrote:On May 02 2013 20:31 Ahelvin wrote:On May 02 2013 20:28 superstartran wrote:On May 02 2013 20:12 Ahelvin wrote:On May 02 2013 20:10 Prevolved wrote:
[quote]
Yeah man, because two wrongs make a right. ... Did you even read what I wrote previously? There, let me help you. Wrong. Entirely wrong. Feminism is all about making people conscious of the prejudice associated with each gender (and men are also subjected to it, the proof being the existence of words such as "man up" or "get some balls" : men are always expected to act strong, tough...) in order for individuals to be more free of doing what they really want to do and being what they really want to be, independently of what the society would like them to be given their gender.What people do not also realize is that feminism is not about THREATENING MEN. It's about asking for gender not being a valid basis for prejudice, may it be for men and women. Feminism is also realizing men do not have to "man up" all the time, and have the right to display interest in things that are not "manly". Do you feel comfortable being around jocks constantly reminding you that you are not a real man because you do not watch sports, or workout, or that videogames are for sissies? Then congratulation, you are in some way a feminist. Stop pretending these things do not exist. That's actually historically untrue. Women were going to be given suffrage in the United States for example well before the 1900s, but they absolutely refused to even contemplate the possibility of having to participate in things such as the military draft and other historically 'male' obligations. Not only that, the feminists of the early 1900s didn't give a flying fuck that men below the age of 21 were dying in World War I in the hundreds of thousands, they just wanted their own right to vote and didn't care. Any notion that feminism ever was about equality is just an illusion that most feminists like to utilize in their arguments, when in reality it isn't at all. Where do you see a past tense in my post? I said "Feminist IS", not "Feminist WAS, HAS BEEN, or HAS ALWAYS BEEN". When you debate a democrat or a republican, do you debate what people of his or her party said 100 years ago? You do understand that even today that generally most feminists (I don't have an exact number, but I'm willing to bet 90%+) believe that a man should pay for child support, that he should do this, that, etc. and that the woman actually has all the power in divorce, child alimony, etc. etc. Not to mention, that feminists even today will fight tooth and nail to prevent women from ever being a part of the draft, despite the fact that they like men have the right to vote. Feminism in general today is a load of bullshit, and it gets exposed big time when you start looking at their positions on child custody, child support, divorce, etc. etc. Alright this is simply completely wrong. Feminism is by definition about gender equality. Feminists oppose all of the things you just listed. You seem to mix up the terms "women" and "feminists" a lot I believe. No, they don't. Don't even fucking lie. Extreme feminists feel that women should have all the power in divorce, child alimony, etc. so don't say that I am wrong. You're the one that is wrong, because I can easily list like 800 articles of feminists opposing more equality on that front. For example, various FEMINIST groups protest and do all sorts of illegal crap to prevent MRA presentations at Universities, but no one ever says anything about. Then again, don't we all just love double standards. Oh, and about women being able to join the Navy? What? http://www.swarthmore.edu/library/peace/DG051-099/dg068.wcoc/dg068.wcochistory.htmRemember, this is the EQUAL RIGHTS AMENDMENT that major feminists groups opposed. Women also historically opposed the military draft during the 1940s because they didn't want to fight in WW2. So all this whole 'feminist wanting equality' is a load of bullshit. Feminists in general have always done what they feel has benefited them, and only benefited them. They could care less about equality among all people. Well, you are wrong. I don't need 800 articles. One dated 2010 or later would suffice. http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1310&dat=19760223&id=cNZVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=K-ADAAAAIBAJ&pg=6643,6064538http://www.firstpost.com/living/dear-lipstick-feminists-alimony-is-not-anti-women-it-empowers-them-746377.htmlhttp://sites.duke.edu/develledish/2011/02/08/is-alimony-unfair-not-so-much-try-feminist/This last article is even better. From a self-proclaimed Feminist about how DNA tests should be banned. http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/6391918/whos-the-daddy/There's plenty of evidence of proclaimed Feminists that clearly do not give a flying fuck about equality at all. This is evident even today when various feminists argue that women should be able to serve in combat units, but shouldn't have to be forced into the draft (i.e. only wants to have the privilege not the obligation). You can argue till your face is blue, but there are multiple examples of feminists in general not caring about 'equality' at all. None of those sources substantiates your claim that the majority of feminism is anti-egalitarian. Every ideology and movement has its fringes, and it'll take more than a few cherry-picked examples of stupidity to prove that feminism as a whole is against equal rights.
For every rational vocal feminist you will find at least 1 irrational vocal feminist that believes all men are rapists and women are the supreme gender.
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On May 03 2013 08:31 Jojo131 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 08:25 Falling wrote:
I don't understand why these sorts of articles generate so much push back and so many troll defenders. Ok, so maybe they aren't intentionally defending the trolls, but they are vehemently arguing that defeat is inevitable and to just 'deal with it.' Perhaps defeat is inevitable, but defeatism is hardly a point that needs further endorsement.
And yet these threads invariably have very strenously argued against these sorts of articles therein creating part of the unintentional bulwark behind which the 'trolls' continue to operate. "Trolls" I feel has largely been over-applied to the general internet population. What if many of these 'trolls' are not trolling at all, but simply hold very repugnant ideas about women. Do they require our implicit passionate endorsement by strenously arguing that others need to simply 'deal with it.'
While personal defeatism is certainly acceptable in the face of such rampant bad behaviour on the internet, why attack or get in the way of those who would inform in the hopes reform. If defeat is inevitable, let it be defeated inevitably. It certainly will not require your help. I suppose that if you believe that defeat is inevitable, then the tension caused by opposing the inevitable is therefore unnecessary. To put into perspective, if we all accepted that people are just going to be bad on the internet no matter what, then writing articles and creating social movement groups only causes unnecessary tension wherein nobody benefits because (again) defeat is inevitable.
wouldn't you create more tension opposing those who oppose what you perceive as inevitable?
regardless i think it's pathetic to use the internet as a cloak for bad behaviour.
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On May 03 2013 08:43 zbedlam wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 08:41 farvacola wrote:On May 03 2013 08:38 superstartran wrote:On May 03 2013 07:53 zatic wrote:On May 03 2013 06:32 superstartran wrote:On May 02 2013 20:41 zatic wrote:On May 02 2013 20:35 superstartran wrote:On May 02 2013 20:31 Ahelvin wrote:On May 02 2013 20:28 superstartran wrote:On May 02 2013 20:12 Ahelvin wrote:
[quote]
... Did you even read what I wrote previously? There, let me help you.
Wrong. Entirely wrong. Feminism is all about making people conscious of the prejudice associated with each gender (and men are also subjected to it, the proof being the existence of words such as "man up" or "get some balls" : men are always expected to act strong, tough...) in order for individuals to be more free of doing what they really want to do and being what they really want to be, independently of what the society would like them to be given their gender.
What people do not also realize is that feminism is not about THREATENING MEN. It's about asking for gender not being a valid basis for prejudice, may it be for men and women. Feminism is also realizing men do not have to "man up" all the time, and have the right to display interest in things that are not "manly". Do you feel comfortable being around jocks constantly reminding you that you are not a real man because you do not watch sports, or workout, or that videogames are for sissies? Then congratulation, you are in some way a feminist. Stop pretending these things do not exist.
That's actually historically untrue. Women were going to be given suffrage in the United States for example well before the 1900s, but they absolutely refused to even contemplate the possibility of having to participate in things such as the military draft and other historically 'male' obligations. Not only that, the feminists of the early 1900s didn't give a flying fuck that men below the age of 21 were dying in World War I in the hundreds of thousands, they just wanted their own right to vote and didn't care. Any notion that feminism ever was about equality is just an illusion that most feminists like to utilize in their arguments, when in reality it isn't at all. Where do you see a past tense in my post? I said "Feminist IS", not "Feminist WAS, HAS BEEN, or HAS ALWAYS BEEN". When you debate a democrat or a republican, do you debate what people of his or her party said 100 years ago? You do understand that even today that generally most feminists (I don't have an exact number, but I'm willing to bet 90%+) believe that a man should pay for child support, that he should do this, that, etc. and that the woman actually has all the power in divorce, child alimony, etc. etc. Not to mention, that feminists even today will fight tooth and nail to prevent women from ever being a part of the draft, despite the fact that they like men have the right to vote. Feminism in general today is a load of bullshit, and it gets exposed big time when you start looking at their positions on child custody, child support, divorce, etc. etc. Alright this is simply completely wrong. Feminism is by definition about gender equality. Feminists oppose all of the things you just listed. You seem to mix up the terms "women" and "feminists" a lot I believe. No, they don't. Don't even fucking lie. Extreme feminists feel that women should have all the power in divorce, child alimony, etc. so don't say that I am wrong. You're the one that is wrong, because I can easily list like 800 articles of feminists opposing more equality on that front. For example, various FEMINIST groups protest and do all sorts of illegal crap to prevent MRA presentations at Universities, but no one ever says anything about. Then again, don't we all just love double standards. Oh, and about women being able to join the Navy? What? http://www.swarthmore.edu/library/peace/DG051-099/dg068.wcoc/dg068.wcochistory.htmRemember, this is the EQUAL RIGHTS AMENDMENT that major feminists groups opposed. Women also historically opposed the military draft during the 1940s because they didn't want to fight in WW2. So all this whole 'feminist wanting equality' is a load of bullshit. Feminists in general have always done what they feel has benefited them, and only benefited them. They could care less about equality among all people. Well, you are wrong. I don't need 800 articles. One dated 2010 or later would suffice. http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1310&dat=19760223&id=cNZVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=K-ADAAAAIBAJ&pg=6643,6064538http://www.firstpost.com/living/dear-lipstick-feminists-alimony-is-not-anti-women-it-empowers-them-746377.htmlhttp://sites.duke.edu/develledish/2011/02/08/is-alimony-unfair-not-so-much-try-feminist/This last article is even better. From a self-proclaimed Feminist about how DNA tests should be banned. http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/6391918/whos-the-daddy/There's plenty of evidence of proclaimed Feminists that clearly do not give a flying fuck about equality at all. This is evident even today when various feminists argue that women should be able to serve in combat units, but shouldn't have to be forced into the draft (i.e. only wants to have the privilege not the obligation). You can argue till your face is blue, but there are multiple examples of feminists in general not caring about 'equality' at all. None of those sources substantiates your claim that the majority of feminism is anti-egalitarian. Every ideology and movement has its fringes, and it'll take more than a few cherry-picked examples of stupidity to prove that feminism as a whole is against equal rights. For every rational vocal feminist you will find at least 1 irrational vocal feminist that believes all men are rapists and women are the supreme gender.
And for every tolerant, egalitarian minded man you will find at least 1 misogynist pig. This is true.
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On May 03 2013 08:40 zbedlam wrote:
On the topic of feminism and the internet though - reality is feminism has strong negative connotations currently because there are quite a lot of vocal feminists and feminist groups that care nothing for equality, they want women to be in all ways more benefited than men. Now given the gaming community is primarily males it stands to reason feminism is going to viewed as even worse than in other communities.
says who? in whose reality?
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Canada11378 Posts
On May 03 2013 08:31 Jojo131 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 08:25 Falling wrote:
I don't understand why these sorts of articles generate so much push back and so many troll defenders. Ok, so maybe they aren't intentionally defending the trolls, but they are vehemently arguing that defeat is inevitable and to just 'deal with it.' Perhaps defeat is inevitable, but defeatism is hardly a point that needs further endorsement.
And yet these threads invariably have very strenously argued against these sorts of articles therein creating part of the unintentional bulwark behind which the 'trolls' continue to operate. "Trolls" I feel has largely been over-applied to the general internet population. What if many of these 'trolls' are not trolling at all, but simply hold very repugnant ideas about women. Do they require our implicit passionate endorsement by strenously arguing that others need to simply 'deal with it.'
While personal defeatism is certainly acceptable in the face of such rampant bad behaviour on the internet, why attack or get in the way of those who would inform in the hopes reform. If defeat is inevitable, let it be defeated inevitably. It certainly will not require your help. I suppose that if you believe that defeat is inevitable, then the tension caused by opposing the inevitable is therefore unnecessary. To put into perspective, if we all accepted that people are just going to be bad on the internet no matter what, then writing articles and creating social movement groups only causes unnecessary tension wherein nobody benefits because (again) defeat is inevitable.
The trouble is that it is incredibly difficult to determine whether it is inevitable. Is there no hope because it is truly hopeless or is there no hope because everyone thinks it is hopeless and therefore either does nothing or else impede those that would try. Are we riled up because this is an issue that will never change and this is unnecessary tension that benefits no-one or are we riled up because women are demanding a change to status quo and we being in the position of privilege dislike this new tension created from a situation that largely did not affect us? That is the tension only seems unnecessary and to us.
"We've heard this a hundred times, deal with it" Maybe we have heard it a hundred times because the problem is one that actually exists, the problem has not gone away, and perhaps this is one method to 'deal with it' though not the 'sit down, shut up, and take some more' method that many were hoping/ arguing.
@ AnachronisticAnarchy
I can understand that. But if you can dismiss the trolls as easily as that, can you not also dismiss the 'internet is full of sexists' just as easily? I am quite confident I am not one and those sorts of quotes never personally bothered me. As far as I can tell they are not personally directed at me.
Furthermore, is that not going after the wrong people, the whistleblowers as it were? I also dislike when negative light is cast on our community, but if there is nothing wrong, then we have nothing to be concerned about. If there are problems even if in the minority, then there still is something wrong. The whistleblowers will naturally turn negative attention towards us and it will be unsettling. But this source of the problem does not reside with them, the problem still existed, there just weren't many females willing to publicily defend themselves so it largely went unnoticed. Maybe there is something that could be corrected and perhaps there is a little housecleaning to do.
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On May 03 2013 08:43 zbedlam wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 08:41 farvacola wrote:On May 03 2013 08:38 superstartran wrote:On May 03 2013 07:53 zatic wrote:On May 03 2013 06:32 superstartran wrote:On May 02 2013 20:41 zatic wrote:On May 02 2013 20:35 superstartran wrote:On May 02 2013 20:31 Ahelvin wrote:On May 02 2013 20:28 superstartran wrote:On May 02 2013 20:12 Ahelvin wrote:
[quote]
... Did you even read what I wrote previously? There, let me help you.
Wrong. Entirely wrong. Feminism is all about making people conscious of the prejudice associated with each gender (and men are also subjected to it, the proof being the existence of words such as "man up" or "get some balls" : men are always expected to act strong, tough...) in order for individuals to be more free of doing what they really want to do and being what they really want to be, independently of what the society would like them to be given their gender.
What people do not also realize is that feminism is not about THREATENING MEN. It's about asking for gender not being a valid basis for prejudice, may it be for men and women. Feminism is also realizing men do not have to "man up" all the time, and have the right to display interest in things that are not "manly". Do you feel comfortable being around jocks constantly reminding you that you are not a real man because you do not watch sports, or workout, or that videogames are for sissies? Then congratulation, you are in some way a feminist. Stop pretending these things do not exist.
That's actually historically untrue. Women were going to be given suffrage in the United States for example well before the 1900s, but they absolutely refused to even contemplate the possibility of having to participate in things such as the military draft and other historically 'male' obligations. Not only that, the feminists of the early 1900s didn't give a flying fuck that men below the age of 21 were dying in World War I in the hundreds of thousands, they just wanted their own right to vote and didn't care. Any notion that feminism ever was about equality is just an illusion that most feminists like to utilize in their arguments, when in reality it isn't at all. Where do you see a past tense in my post? I said "Feminist IS", not "Feminist WAS, HAS BEEN, or HAS ALWAYS BEEN". When you debate a democrat or a republican, do you debate what people of his or her party said 100 years ago? You do understand that even today that generally most feminists (I don't have an exact number, but I'm willing to bet 90%+) believe that a man should pay for child support, that he should do this, that, etc. and that the woman actually has all the power in divorce, child alimony, etc. etc. Not to mention, that feminists even today will fight tooth and nail to prevent women from ever being a part of the draft, despite the fact that they like men have the right to vote. Feminism in general today is a load of bullshit, and it gets exposed big time when you start looking at their positions on child custody, child support, divorce, etc. etc. Alright this is simply completely wrong. Feminism is by definition about gender equality. Feminists oppose all of the things you just listed. You seem to mix up the terms "women" and "feminists" a lot I believe. No, they don't. Don't even fucking lie. Extreme feminists feel that women should have all the power in divorce, child alimony, etc. so don't say that I am wrong. You're the one that is wrong, because I can easily list like 800 articles of feminists opposing more equality on that front. For example, various FEMINIST groups protest and do all sorts of illegal crap to prevent MRA presentations at Universities, but no one ever says anything about. Then again, don't we all just love double standards. Oh, and about women being able to join the Navy? What? http://www.swarthmore.edu/library/peace/DG051-099/dg068.wcoc/dg068.wcochistory.htmRemember, this is the EQUAL RIGHTS AMENDMENT that major feminists groups opposed. Women also historically opposed the military draft during the 1940s because they didn't want to fight in WW2. So all this whole 'feminist wanting equality' is a load of bullshit. Feminists in general have always done what they feel has benefited them, and only benefited them. They could care less about equality among all people. Well, you are wrong. I don't need 800 articles. One dated 2010 or later would suffice. http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1310&dat=19760223&id=cNZVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=K-ADAAAAIBAJ&pg=6643,6064538http://www.firstpost.com/living/dear-lipstick-feminists-alimony-is-not-anti-women-it-empowers-them-746377.htmlhttp://sites.duke.edu/develledish/2011/02/08/is-alimony-unfair-not-so-much-try-feminist/This last article is even better. From a self-proclaimed Feminist about how DNA tests should be banned. http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/6391918/whos-the-daddy/There's plenty of evidence of proclaimed Feminists that clearly do not give a flying fuck about equality at all. This is evident even today when various feminists argue that women should be able to serve in combat units, but shouldn't have to be forced into the draft (i.e. only wants to have the privilege not the obligation). You can argue till your face is blue, but there are multiple examples of feminists in general not caring about 'equality' at all. None of those sources substantiates your claim that the majority of feminism is anti-egalitarian. Every ideology and movement has its fringes, and it'll take more than a few cherry-picked examples of stupidity to prove that feminism as a whole is against equal rights. For every rational vocal feminist you will find at least 1 irrational vocal feminist that believes all men are rapists and women are the supreme gender.
You're being ridiculous, I'm sure. It wouldn't surprise me that the ratio of "insane feminsts who use tumblr" to sane feminsts was 1:10000 or somesuch.
Also
My name is Alanah Pearce and I’m a videogame journalist.
Is this wishful thinking or plain delusion?
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On May 03 2013 08:48 Fireflies wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 08:43 zbedlam wrote:On May 03 2013 08:41 farvacola wrote:On May 03 2013 08:38 superstartran wrote:On May 03 2013 07:53 zatic wrote:On May 03 2013 06:32 superstartran wrote:On May 02 2013 20:41 zatic wrote:On May 02 2013 20:35 superstartran wrote:On May 02 2013 20:31 Ahelvin wrote:On May 02 2013 20:28 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
That's actually historically untrue. Women were going to be given suffrage in the United States for example well before the 1900s, but they absolutely refused to even contemplate the possibility of having to participate in things such as the military draft and other historically 'male' obligations. Not only that, the feminists of the early 1900s didn't give a flying fuck that men below the age of 21 were dying in World War I in the hundreds of thousands, they just wanted their own right to vote and didn't care. Any notion that feminism ever was about equality is just an illusion that most feminists like to utilize in their arguments, when in reality it isn't at all. Where do you see a past tense in my post? I said "Feminist IS", not "Feminist WAS, HAS BEEN, or HAS ALWAYS BEEN". When you debate a democrat or a republican, do you debate what people of his or her party said 100 years ago? You do understand that even today that generally most feminists (I don't have an exact number, but I'm willing to bet 90%+) believe that a man should pay for child support, that he should do this, that, etc. and that the woman actually has all the power in divorce, child alimony, etc. etc. Not to mention, that feminists even today will fight tooth and nail to prevent women from ever being a part of the draft, despite the fact that they like men have the right to vote. Feminism in general today is a load of bullshit, and it gets exposed big time when you start looking at their positions on child custody, child support, divorce, etc. etc. Alright this is simply completely wrong. Feminism is by definition about gender equality. Feminists oppose all of the things you just listed. You seem to mix up the terms "women" and "feminists" a lot I believe. No, they don't. Don't even fucking lie. Extreme feminists feel that women should have all the power in divorce, child alimony, etc. so don't say that I am wrong. You're the one that is wrong, because I can easily list like 800 articles of feminists opposing more equality on that front. For example, various FEMINIST groups protest and do all sorts of illegal crap to prevent MRA presentations at Universities, but no one ever says anything about. Then again, don't we all just love double standards. Oh, and about women being able to join the Navy? What? http://www.swarthmore.edu/library/peace/DG051-099/dg068.wcoc/dg068.wcochistory.htmRemember, this is the EQUAL RIGHTS AMENDMENT that major feminists groups opposed. Women also historically opposed the military draft during the 1940s because they didn't want to fight in WW2. So all this whole 'feminist wanting equality' is a load of bullshit. Feminists in general have always done what they feel has benefited them, and only benefited them. They could care less about equality among all people. Well, you are wrong. I don't need 800 articles. One dated 2010 or later would suffice. http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1310&dat=19760223&id=cNZVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=K-ADAAAAIBAJ&pg=6643,6064538http://www.firstpost.com/living/dear-lipstick-feminists-alimony-is-not-anti-women-it-empowers-them-746377.htmlhttp://sites.duke.edu/develledish/2011/02/08/is-alimony-unfair-not-so-much-try-feminist/This last article is even better. From a self-proclaimed Feminist about how DNA tests should be banned. http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/6391918/whos-the-daddy/There's plenty of evidence of proclaimed Feminists that clearly do not give a flying fuck about equality at all. This is evident even today when various feminists argue that women should be able to serve in combat units, but shouldn't have to be forced into the draft (i.e. only wants to have the privilege not the obligation). You can argue till your face is blue, but there are multiple examples of feminists in general not caring about 'equality' at all. None of those sources substantiates your claim that the majority of feminism is anti-egalitarian. Every ideology and movement has its fringes, and it'll take more than a few cherry-picked examples of stupidity to prove that feminism as a whole is against equal rights. For every rational vocal feminist you will find at least 1 irrational vocal feminist that believes all men are rapists and women are the supreme gender. You're being ridiculous, I'm sure. It wouldn't surprise me that the ratio of "insane feminsts who use tumblr" to sane feminsts was 1:10000 or somesuch. Also Is this wishful thinking or plain delusion?
maybe it's a bit of both.
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On May 03 2013 08:46 nunez wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 08:40 zbedlam wrote:
On the topic of feminism and the internet though - reality is feminism has strong negative connotations currently because there are quite a lot of vocal feminists and feminist groups that care nothing for equality, they want women to be in all ways more benefited than men. Now given the gaming community is primarily males it stands to reason feminism is going to viewed as even worse than in other communities. says who? in whose reality?
it really depends on the person.
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On May 03 2013 08:41 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 08:38 superstartran wrote:On May 03 2013 07:53 zatic wrote:On May 03 2013 06:32 superstartran wrote:On May 02 2013 20:41 zatic wrote:On May 02 2013 20:35 superstartran wrote:On May 02 2013 20:31 Ahelvin wrote:On May 02 2013 20:28 superstartran wrote:On May 02 2013 20:12 Ahelvin wrote:On May 02 2013 20:10 Prevolved wrote:
[quote]
Yeah man, because two wrongs make a right. ... Did you even read what I wrote previously? There, let me help you. Wrong. Entirely wrong. Feminism is all about making people conscious of the prejudice associated with each gender (and men are also subjected to it, the proof being the existence of words such as "man up" or "get some balls" : men are always expected to act strong, tough...) in order for individuals to be more free of doing what they really want to do and being what they really want to be, independently of what the society would like them to be given their gender.What people do not also realize is that feminism is not about THREATENING MEN. It's about asking for gender not being a valid basis for prejudice, may it be for men and women. Feminism is also realizing men do not have to "man up" all the time, and have the right to display interest in things that are not "manly". Do you feel comfortable being around jocks constantly reminding you that you are not a real man because you do not watch sports, or workout, or that videogames are for sissies? Then congratulation, you are in some way a feminist. Stop pretending these things do not exist. That's actually historically untrue. Women were going to be given suffrage in the United States for example well before the 1900s, but they absolutely refused to even contemplate the possibility of having to participate in things such as the military draft and other historically 'male' obligations. Not only that, the feminists of the early 1900s didn't give a flying fuck that men below the age of 21 were dying in World War I in the hundreds of thousands, they just wanted their own right to vote and didn't care. Any notion that feminism ever was about equality is just an illusion that most feminists like to utilize in their arguments, when in reality it isn't at all. Where do you see a past tense in my post? I said "Feminist IS", not "Feminist WAS, HAS BEEN, or HAS ALWAYS BEEN". When you debate a democrat or a republican, do you debate what people of his or her party said 100 years ago? You do understand that even today that generally most feminists (I don't have an exact number, but I'm willing to bet 90%+) believe that a man should pay for child support, that he should do this, that, etc. and that the woman actually has all the power in divorce, child alimony, etc. etc. Not to mention, that feminists even today will fight tooth and nail to prevent women from ever being a part of the draft, despite the fact that they like men have the right to vote. Feminism in general today is a load of bullshit, and it gets exposed big time when you start looking at their positions on child custody, child support, divorce, etc. etc. Alright this is simply completely wrong. Feminism is by definition about gender equality. Feminists oppose all of the things you just listed. You seem to mix up the terms "women" and "feminists" a lot I believe. No, they don't. Don't even fucking lie. Extreme feminists feel that women should have all the power in divorce, child alimony, etc. so don't say that I am wrong. You're the one that is wrong, because I can easily list like 800 articles of feminists opposing more equality on that front. For example, various FEMINIST groups protest and do all sorts of illegal crap to prevent MRA presentations at Universities, but no one ever says anything about. Then again, don't we all just love double standards. Oh, and about women being able to join the Navy? What? http://www.swarthmore.edu/library/peace/DG051-099/dg068.wcoc/dg068.wcochistory.htmRemember, this is the EQUAL RIGHTS AMENDMENT that major feminists groups opposed. Women also historically opposed the military draft during the 1940s because they didn't want to fight in WW2. So all this whole 'feminist wanting equality' is a load of bullshit. Feminists in general have always done what they feel has benefited them, and only benefited them. They could care less about equality among all people. Well, you are wrong. I don't need 800 articles. One dated 2010 or later would suffice. http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1310&dat=19760223&id=cNZVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=K-ADAAAAIBAJ&pg=6643,6064538http://www.firstpost.com/living/dear-lipstick-feminists-alimony-is-not-anti-women-it-empowers-them-746377.htmlhttp://sites.duke.edu/develledish/2011/02/08/is-alimony-unfair-not-so-much-try-feminist/This last article is even better. From a self-proclaimed Feminist about how DNA tests should be banned. http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/6391918/whos-the-daddy/There's plenty of evidence of proclaimed Feminists that clearly do not give a flying fuck about equality at all. This is evident even today when various feminists argue that women should be able to serve in combat units, but shouldn't have to be forced into the draft (i.e. only wants to have the privilege not the obligation). You can argue till your face is blue, but there are multiple examples of feminists in general not caring about 'equality' at all. None of those sources substantiates your claim that the majority of feminism is anti-egalitarian. Every ideology and movement has its fringes, and it'll take more than a few cherry-picked examples of stupidity to prove that feminism as a whole is against equal rights.
The vast majority of 'feminists' today do not care about equality. Those who do/did aren't even involved in the current 'feminist' movement because they are busy living their lives in a relatively equal society (and yes, society today is relatively equal, in fact, it's almost favoring women at this point in quite a few areas).
Those who claim themselves to be feminists today are busy proclaiming dumb shit like rape culture, the privileged male (mostly due to higher income), etc. etc. and yet totally ignore things like alimony, child custody, divorce, sexual and domestic violence against men, etc. etc. They proclaim that men have historically have had all the power, and continue to have all the power in society. It's a load of bullshit, and it gets annoying listening to it over and over again (especially in humanities classes, dear fucking god).
In short, I don't have a problem with the origins of the feminism movement. They were really never about true equality (look at their historical records; they wanted privileges without obligations), but they didn't overextend their reach like modern feminism does.
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On May 03 2013 08:47 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 08:31 Jojo131 wrote:On May 03 2013 08:25 Falling wrote:
I don't understand why these sorts of articles generate so much push back and so many troll defenders. Ok, so maybe they aren't intentionally defending the trolls, but they are vehemently arguing that defeat is inevitable and to just 'deal with it.' Perhaps defeat is inevitable, but defeatism is hardly a point that needs further endorsement.
And yet these threads invariably have very strenously argued against these sorts of articles therein creating part of the unintentional bulwark behind which the 'trolls' continue to operate. "Trolls" I feel has largely been over-applied to the general internet population. What if many of these 'trolls' are not trolling at all, but simply hold very repugnant ideas about women. Do they require our implicit passionate endorsement by strenously arguing that others need to simply 'deal with it.'
While personal defeatism is certainly acceptable in the face of such rampant bad behaviour on the internet, why attack or get in the way of those who would inform in the hopes reform. If defeat is inevitable, let it be defeated inevitably. It certainly will not require your help. I suppose that if you believe that defeat is inevitable, then the tension caused by opposing the inevitable is therefore unnecessary. To put into perspective, if we all accepted that people are just going to be bad on the internet no matter what, then writing articles and creating social movement groups only causes unnecessary tension wherein nobody benefits because (again) defeat is inevitable. The trouble is that it is incredibly difficult to determine whether it is inevitable. Is there no hope because it is truly hopeless or is there no hope because everyone thinks it is hopeless
im curious, do you think that women are the only minority group that has a tough time in the modern world and secondly if you can point to an example of a minority group becoming fully accepted while still maintaining their identity.
maybe im infering too much from what you say but you seem to pro feminism, pro 'gurl gamers' whatever that means, and pro people checking their privilege. the current course of action being followed by most feminists, at least in the gaming world, has it ever worked?
On May 03 2013 08:48 Fireflies wrote:Is this wishful thinking or plain delusion?
to be fair, that sentence means basically nothing when you look at other people claiming to be journalists on the internet.
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On May 03 2013 08:33 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 08:29 eX Killy wrote:On May 03 2013 07:48 Erasme wrote:On May 03 2013 00:20 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On May 03 2013 00:17 B.I.G. wrote:On May 02 2013 19:05 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On May 02 2013 19:02 ShiroKaisen wrote:On May 02 2013 18:59 MasterOfPuppets wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Before I record the videos I create for various different companies I change my shirt from the loosely fitting singlet I usually wear during the day, to a high-collared t-shirt that will minimise my chances of being objectified. It’s less comfortable, it’s not what I would generally choose to wear, but I do it in attempt to avoid comments about my breasts, my chest, and my physique in general – I try to negate any harassment I possibly can.
So you purposefully make yourself physically uncomfortable and repress a little of your sexuality because you're bothered by random internet users? Seriously? Are you new to the internet? Do you not understand how this thing works? That's like IdrA not playing StarCraft anymore because someone told him he's not a good player. lmao
Obviously, it doesn’t work. Instead of having people disregard gender entirely as it really shouldn’t be relevant to a video about game news, there are streams of responses from men complaining that a woman hasn’t revealed herself to them, as though it’s expected or it’s their right to ask for that. Not only is this incredibly discouraging – these videos take hours and hours of effort to create – it’s easy to feel like you simply can’t win. You can only ignore the comments, but that would make responding to the pleasant viewers or the ones who ask genuine questions impossible.
Nope. It's not impossible. Many people manage to ignore trolls and uneducated children, even on Twitch whose chat is a cancerous cesspool, or YouTube comments ffs.
If jerks on the internet are given a free-pass and allowed to hide behind anonymity when they’re being sexist to someone, then there’s absolutely no reason you can’t use that same anonymity to criticise or educate them. Honestly, just seeing one down-vote or having one person stick up for me is a part of the reason I’m still here and I’m not going to stop fighting. Every single person has the power to fight sexism.
Is this woman stupid? People on the internet are given a free-pass to do and say far more than just being sexist to some uptight, sensitive and easily-offended woman like her who apparently doesn't understand how the internet works or that you can't censor it. I mean lmao, I'm not a big deal, but in my many years of competitive gaming I've had hundreds if not thousands of people call me a no-life, a basement dweller, a loser (all of which baseless assumptions ofc) and wishing things like death and cancer and rape on me and my family, JUST BECAUSE I BEAT THEM AT VIDEO GAMES. Do you think that affected me in any way, shape or form? No lol. I just laugh and brush it off, and it even makes me feel better about myself that these people are so easily irritated. Protip to her: stop being butthurt, either get off the Internet or learn to deal with. Seriously. Re-assess your life: does it really mean that much to you that some kiddies on the other side of the world purposefully post mean or "sexist" things about you just to get you riled up? Because you're kinda getting trolled here hun, getting trolled big time if you acknowledge their presence. So because it sucks, we shouldn't complain about it and try to change it? That's a shitty attitude. If you complain about it, the trolls have won. Trying to change it on any wide scale is futile, it's simply not going to happen. You can have a well-moderated community like TL, of course, where these people are banned without a second thought, but you will never exterminate this from the Internet, you simply can't. Wow I just have to say that that's a terrible attitude to have. This might be a relatively innocent example, but people with an attitude like this are the reason terrible things can happen on a grand scale. If everyone had this attitude of "just let it slide" black people would still be slaves, there would be no more jews, and unruly women would still be burnt at the stake. I realise very well that none of these issues have been resolved completely, but at least we're working on it. Again, I realise that the current matter is far less severe but I just think that this is a dangerous kind of attitude to have in general. No. Internet trolls have literally *zero* effect on anything, so long as you don't give them any attention. Stop pretending like there's an equation between internet and real life. I guess you never heard of korea. and korea has never heard of the rest of the world? i dont see your point. Internet abuse-related suicide, especially that of celebrities, is a well documented and troublingly prevalent phenomena in South Korea.
what about everywhere else that's not south korea.
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On May 03 2013 08:53 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 08:41 farvacola wrote:On May 03 2013 08:38 superstartran wrote:On May 03 2013 07:53 zatic wrote:On May 03 2013 06:32 superstartran wrote:On May 02 2013 20:41 zatic wrote:On May 02 2013 20:35 superstartran wrote:On May 02 2013 20:31 Ahelvin wrote:On May 02 2013 20:28 superstartran wrote:On May 02 2013 20:12 Ahelvin wrote:
[quote]
... Did you even read what I wrote previously? There, let me help you.
Wrong. Entirely wrong. Feminism is all about making people conscious of the prejudice associated with each gender (and men are also subjected to it, the proof being the existence of words such as "man up" or "get some balls" : men are always expected to act strong, tough...) in order for individuals to be more free of doing what they really want to do and being what they really want to be, independently of what the society would like them to be given their gender.
What people do not also realize is that feminism is not about THREATENING MEN. It's about asking for gender not being a valid basis for prejudice, may it be for men and women. Feminism is also realizing men do not have to "man up" all the time, and have the right to display interest in things that are not "manly". Do you feel comfortable being around jocks constantly reminding you that you are not a real man because you do not watch sports, or workout, or that videogames are for sissies? Then congratulation, you are in some way a feminist. Stop pretending these things do not exist.
That's actually historically untrue. Women were going to be given suffrage in the United States for example well before the 1900s, but they absolutely refused to even contemplate the possibility of having to participate in things such as the military draft and other historically 'male' obligations. Not only that, the feminists of the early 1900s didn't give a flying fuck that men below the age of 21 were dying in World War I in the hundreds of thousands, they just wanted their own right to vote and didn't care. Any notion that feminism ever was about equality is just an illusion that most feminists like to utilize in their arguments, when in reality it isn't at all. Where do you see a past tense in my post? I said "Feminist IS", not "Feminist WAS, HAS BEEN, or HAS ALWAYS BEEN". When you debate a democrat or a republican, do you debate what people of his or her party said 100 years ago? You do understand that even today that generally most feminists (I don't have an exact number, but I'm willing to bet 90%+) believe that a man should pay for child support, that he should do this, that, etc. and that the woman actually has all the power in divorce, child alimony, etc. etc. Not to mention, that feminists even today will fight tooth and nail to prevent women from ever being a part of the draft, despite the fact that they like men have the right to vote. Feminism in general today is a load of bullshit, and it gets exposed big time when you start looking at their positions on child custody, child support, divorce, etc. etc. Alright this is simply completely wrong. Feminism is by definition about gender equality. Feminists oppose all of the things you just listed. You seem to mix up the terms "women" and "feminists" a lot I believe. No, they don't. Don't even fucking lie. Extreme feminists feel that women should have all the power in divorce, child alimony, etc. so don't say that I am wrong. You're the one that is wrong, because I can easily list like 800 articles of feminists opposing more equality on that front. For example, various FEMINIST groups protest and do all sorts of illegal crap to prevent MRA presentations at Universities, but no one ever says anything about. Then again, don't we all just love double standards. Oh, and about women being able to join the Navy? What? http://www.swarthmore.edu/library/peace/DG051-099/dg068.wcoc/dg068.wcochistory.htmRemember, this is the EQUAL RIGHTS AMENDMENT that major feminists groups opposed. Women also historically opposed the military draft during the 1940s because they didn't want to fight in WW2. So all this whole 'feminist wanting equality' is a load of bullshit. Feminists in general have always done what they feel has benefited them, and only benefited them. They could care less about equality among all people. Well, you are wrong. I don't need 800 articles. One dated 2010 or later would suffice. http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1310&dat=19760223&id=cNZVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=K-ADAAAAIBAJ&pg=6643,6064538http://www.firstpost.com/living/dear-lipstick-feminists-alimony-is-not-anti-women-it-empowers-them-746377.htmlhttp://sites.duke.edu/develledish/2011/02/08/is-alimony-unfair-not-so-much-try-feminist/This last article is even better. From a self-proclaimed Feminist about how DNA tests should be banned. http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/6391918/whos-the-daddy/There's plenty of evidence of proclaimed Feminists that clearly do not give a flying fuck about equality at all. This is evident even today when various feminists argue that women should be able to serve in combat units, but shouldn't have to be forced into the draft (i.e. only wants to have the privilege not the obligation). You can argue till your face is blue, but there are multiple examples of feminists in general not caring about 'equality' at all. None of those sources substantiates your claim that the majority of feminism is anti-egalitarian. Every ideology and movement has its fringes, and it'll take more than a few cherry-picked examples of stupidity to prove that feminism as a whole is against equal rights. The vast majority of 'feminists' today do not care about equality. Those who do/did aren't even involved in the current 'feminist' movement because they are busy living their lives in a relatively equal society (and yes, society today is relatively equal, in fact, it's almost favoring women at this point in quite a few areas). Those who claim themselves to be feminists today are busy proclaiming dumb shit like rape culture, the privileged male (mostly due to higher income), etc. etc. and yet totally ignore things like alimony, child custody, divorce, sexual and domestic violence against men, etc. etc. They proclaim that men have historically have had all the power, and continue to have all the power in society. It's a load of bullshit, and it gets annoying listening to it over and over again (especially in humanities classes, dear fucking god). In short, I don't have a problem with the origins of the feminism movement. They were really never about true equality (look at their historical records; they wanted privileges without obligations), but they didn't overextend their reach like modern feminism does.
Again, simply saying that the vast majority of feminists conform to your definition of and experience with the term does not count as valid evidence.
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On May 03 2013 08:51 FrankWalls wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 08:46 nunez wrote:On May 03 2013 08:40 zbedlam wrote:
On the topic of feminism and the internet though - reality is feminism has strong negative connotations currently because there are quite a lot of vocal feminists and feminist groups that care nothing for equality, they want women to be in all ways more benefited than men. Now given the gaming community is primarily males it stands to reason feminism is going to viewed as even worse than in other communities. says who? in whose reality? it really depends on the person.
yes, so proclaiming qualitative analysis of 'reality' will only be a reflection of yourself (which parts of the internet you frequent and absorb), not the actual reality. in the context we are speaking in, tl.net, i am aware of no such strong negative connotations (at least not as a general theme).
maybe i don't follow the blogs section meticulously enough.
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Northern Ireland26147 Posts
I don't believe it's the vast majority of feminists either, numerically speaking. Speaking purely from a visibility/coming into my sphere of interests, I'd say a large proportion of feminists are obnoxious.
It's generally a problem nowadays with social media, blogs and what have you that everyone has to have their say. Strangely enough those who know what they're talking about, or have interesting opinions appear less liable to put themselves out there, perhaps it's an innate self-confidence in not having to seek validation from the like-minded or whatever.
Anyway, I know from actually reading feminist literature that self-described feminists are often not the crazy creatures that they are made out to be. Without that experience, solely judging from my internet travels and encounters with people in 'real life', I'd think that feminists were nutjobs frankly.
It's quite frustrating really. I'd share many of the aims of feminism, sympathise with a lot of women-centric issues that many don't feel are important (especially males) and then I see those who self-describe acting in such idiotic ways that they create a backlash, lessening the liklihood of the kind of societal shift I would like to see personally.
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On May 03 2013 08:46 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 08:43 zbedlam wrote:On May 03 2013 08:41 farvacola wrote:On May 03 2013 08:38 superstartran wrote:On May 03 2013 07:53 zatic wrote:On May 03 2013 06:32 superstartran wrote:On May 02 2013 20:41 zatic wrote:On May 02 2013 20:35 superstartran wrote:On May 02 2013 20:31 Ahelvin wrote:On May 02 2013 20:28 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
That's actually historically untrue. Women were going to be given suffrage in the United States for example well before the 1900s, but they absolutely refused to even contemplate the possibility of having to participate in things such as the military draft and other historically 'male' obligations. Not only that, the feminists of the early 1900s didn't give a flying fuck that men below the age of 21 were dying in World War I in the hundreds of thousands, they just wanted their own right to vote and didn't care. Any notion that feminism ever was about equality is just an illusion that most feminists like to utilize in their arguments, when in reality it isn't at all. Where do you see a past tense in my post? I said "Feminist IS", not "Feminist WAS, HAS BEEN, or HAS ALWAYS BEEN". When you debate a democrat or a republican, do you debate what people of his or her party said 100 years ago? You do understand that even today that generally most feminists (I don't have an exact number, but I'm willing to bet 90%+) believe that a man should pay for child support, that he should do this, that, etc. and that the woman actually has all the power in divorce, child alimony, etc. etc. Not to mention, that feminists even today will fight tooth and nail to prevent women from ever being a part of the draft, despite the fact that they like men have the right to vote. Feminism in general today is a load of bullshit, and it gets exposed big time when you start looking at their positions on child custody, child support, divorce, etc. etc. Alright this is simply completely wrong. Feminism is by definition about gender equality. Feminists oppose all of the things you just listed. You seem to mix up the terms "women" and "feminists" a lot I believe. No, they don't. Don't even fucking lie. Extreme feminists feel that women should have all the power in divorce, child alimony, etc. so don't say that I am wrong. You're the one that is wrong, because I can easily list like 800 articles of feminists opposing more equality on that front. For example, various FEMINIST groups protest and do all sorts of illegal crap to prevent MRA presentations at Universities, but no one ever says anything about. Then again, don't we all just love double standards. Oh, and about women being able to join the Navy? What? http://www.swarthmore.edu/library/peace/DG051-099/dg068.wcoc/dg068.wcochistory.htmRemember, this is the EQUAL RIGHTS AMENDMENT that major feminists groups opposed. Women also historically opposed the military draft during the 1940s because they didn't want to fight in WW2. So all this whole 'feminist wanting equality' is a load of bullshit. Feminists in general have always done what they feel has benefited them, and only benefited them. They could care less about equality among all people. Well, you are wrong. I don't need 800 articles. One dated 2010 or later would suffice. http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1310&dat=19760223&id=cNZVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=K-ADAAAAIBAJ&pg=6643,6064538http://www.firstpost.com/living/dear-lipstick-feminists-alimony-is-not-anti-women-it-empowers-them-746377.htmlhttp://sites.duke.edu/develledish/2011/02/08/is-alimony-unfair-not-so-much-try-feminist/This last article is even better. From a self-proclaimed Feminist about how DNA tests should be banned. http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/6391918/whos-the-daddy/There's plenty of evidence of proclaimed Feminists that clearly do not give a flying fuck about equality at all. This is evident even today when various feminists argue that women should be able to serve in combat units, but shouldn't have to be forced into the draft (i.e. only wants to have the privilege not the obligation). You can argue till your face is blue, but there are multiple examples of feminists in general not caring about 'equality' at all. None of those sources substantiates your claim that the majority of feminism is anti-egalitarian. Every ideology and movement has its fringes, and it'll take more than a few cherry-picked examples of stupidity to prove that feminism as a whole is against equal rights. For every rational vocal feminist you will find at least 1 irrational vocal feminist that believes all men are rapists and women are the supreme gender. And for every tolerant, egalitarian minded man you will find at least 1 misogynist pig. This is true.
The difference being he's listed two groups of vocal feminists, whereas you've listed men as an entire group. So it's a comparison of "Half of feminists are fighting for something that can no longer be considered gender equality" to "Half of men are assholes."
In that comparison, the men aren't voluntarily representing (machism?), whereas the feminists would be voluntarily representing feminism. The complaint, then, is that feminism has taken on or is taking on a meaning beyond what was originally intended but is still falling under the blanket of its original intent when convenient. For feminism (Modern feminism - NOT "gender equality") as a thing to retain its credibility to the (non-modern-feminist) masses it needs to segregate itself from one or the other understanding of feminism, because they are not the same thing.
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EPT
