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farvacola
United States18825 Posts
On April 09 2013 05:41 Noro wrote: Sad to see that this thread had to turn into a pointless debate about politics. smh RIP As long as no one hurls insults and the dialogue is kept diplomatic, there is no reason a thread about the passing of a figure as divisive as Thatcher can't speak on her political legacy or how the world sees her. A thread full of banal "RIP" posts might as well not be a thread at all. | ||
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Noro
Canada991 Posts
On April 09 2013 05:44 Iyerbeth wrote: I don't mean to pick on you particularly, but what else would you expect from a thread discussing the death of a political figure like her? I've seen this comment a few times and I honestly don't understand. Are you suggesting we should write "RIP" and move on? Umm.. yes? It's a thread about her death, not her politics. It's called "Margaret Thatcher dies..." | ||
KwarK
United States42646 Posts
On April 09 2013 05:43 Jockmcplop wrote: what i am trying to say (admittedly in avery clumsy way) is that yes she had to shut the industry down, but it was done in such a way that left whole sections of the country with absolutely no hope of recovery. Maybe it was the only way, but it was brutal and harsh at the same time. I agree. She destroyed whole communities and slept well at night protected by her cosy ideological bubble. In hindsight you can make the case that she took it too far and didn't make sufficient efforts to rebuilt the communities that depended upon the national industries that she destroyed. Not a perfect figure by any means but she didn't run British industry into the ground in the three decades before her premiership and blaming their demise on her is absurd. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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Iyerbeth
England2410 Posts
On April 09 2013 05:46 Noro wrote: Umm.. yes? It's a thread about her death, not her politics. It's called "Margaret Thatcher dies..." Oh alright, thank you. Obviously I disagree (I think there's more value in the debate), but I honestly do appreciate the clarification. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9646 Posts
On April 09 2013 05:46 Noro wrote: Umm.. yes? It's a thread about her death, not her politics. It's called "Margaret Thatcher dies..." I thought that at first (note my first comment being "i'm not going to talk about my opinion of her") but actually this is probably what she would have wanted anyway. Thatcher loved political debate. | ||
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clementdudu
France819 Posts
On April 09 2013 05:37 KwarK wrote: I am very, very aware of the ethnic cleansing carried out by England in Ireland, along with the rest of it. I understand that the plantations were a deliberate attempt to eradicate the Catholic Irish due to seeing them as a potential threat during the religious wars. I know my history and I know England was in the wrong for being in Ireland. However that isn't relevant whether or not a man who uses bombs to murder civilians is a murderer or not. The peace process must be peaceful or it will have no legitimacy at all. I don't murder people not because I'm not brave enough to but because I do not think I have the right, no matter how strongly held my convictions might be, to take the life of another. A murderer does. It is narcissism at its most violent, criminal extreme. nelson mandela disagreed for a good part of his struggle. | ||
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Atom Cannister
Germany380 Posts
On April 09 2013 05:37 KwarK wrote: I am very, very aware of the ethnic cleansing carried out by England in Ireland, along with the rest of it. I understand that the plantations were a deliberate attempt to eradicate the Catholic Irish due to seeing them as a potential threat during the religious wars. I know my history and I know England was in the wrong for being in Ireland. However that isn't relevant whether or not a man who uses bombs to murder civilians is a murderer or not. The peace process must be peaceful or it will have no legitimacy at all. I don't murder people not because I'm not brave enough to but because I do not think I have the right, no matter how strongly held my convictions might be, to take the life of another. A murderer does. It is narcissism at its most violent, criminal extreme. You've ignored almost everything I wrote. I tried to let you know that you're possibly not seeing the full picture. You respond with. I'm right, you're wrong. Are all rebels common criminals? All rebels in all of history? What should one do when they're oppressed and denied basic human rights due to religion or race. They might protest peacefully. Yes, they might in Derry. This is exactly what happened. The Brits opened fire on civilians who were peacefully protesting. What do people do after such responses to protests, yes violence can happen. Did these people target civilians? Did you look at the link I posted? England has committed serious atrocities to Ireland. Don't, for the love of God, deny them. These were political prisoners. They were not just murderers targeting civilians. | ||
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KwarK
United States42646 Posts
On April 09 2013 05:48 clementdudu wrote: nelson mandela disagreed for a good part of his struggle. Fortunately Nelson Mandela is not the objective standard for ethical conduct. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25186 Posts
On April 09 2013 05:48 clementdudu wrote: nelson mandela disagreed for a good part of his struggle. What does Nelson Mandela have to do with it? Other than being a figure that holds the status and love akin to that of a deity and thus not criticised for his behaviour before he denounced violence. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25186 Posts
On April 09 2013 05:49 Atom Cannister wrote: You've ignored almost everything I wrote. I tried to let you know that you're possibly not seeing the full picture. You respond with. I'm right, you're wrong. Are all rebels common criminals? All rebels in all of history? What should one do when they're oppressed and denied basic human rights due to religion or race. They might protest peacefully. Yes, they might in Derry. This is exactly what happened. What do people do after such responses to protests, yes violence can happen. Did these people target civilians? Did you look at the link I posted? England has committed serious atrocities to Ireland. Don't, for the love of God, deny them. These were political prisoners. They were not just murderers targeting civilians. This kind of us/them mentality is EXACTLY why the Troubles persisted as they did, for so long. I have no time for this kind of partisan dialogue. | ||
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KwarK
United States42646 Posts
On April 09 2013 05:49 Atom Cannister wrote: You've ignored almost everything I wrote. I tried to let you know that you're possibly not seeing the full picture. You respond with. I'm right, you're wrong. Are all rebels common criminals? All rebels in all of history? What should one do when they're oppressed and denied basic human rights due to religion or race. They might protest peacefully. Yes, they might in Derry. This is exactly what happened. The Brits opened fire on civilians who were peacefully protesting. What do people do after such responses to protests, yes violence can happen. Did these people target civilians? Did you look at the link I posted? England has committed serious atrocities to Ireland. Don't, for the love of God, deny them. These were political prisoners. They were not just murderers targeting civilians. I claimed that England committed ethnic cleansing in Ireland and you're now accusing me of denying atrocities and of ignoring your post. Maybe calm down and reread what I wrote. Not all rebels are common criminals. For example MLK was not a common criminal. The peaceful protestors on Bloody Sunday were not common criminals. The bomb makers murdering innocent civilians were. I don't understand how you're not seeing this line. When you murder innocent people you become a murderer. When you peacefully protest you become a peaceful protester. | ||
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clementdudu
France819 Posts
On April 09 2013 05:50 KwarK wrote: Fortunately Nelson Mandela is not the objective standard for ethical conduct. theres isnt a man in the world,especially in the world of revolutionnaries/freedom fighters who is perfect.(ghandi was far from clear on castes issues) edit:removed the part i wasnt sure about | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
Thatcher may have destroyed communities and fought the trade unions (that part needed to be done), but outside of that she was a mother, grandmother and family woman. My thoughts go to her family who will miss hear dearly. RIP. | ||
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DocTheMedic
United States79 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On April 09 2013 05:46 Noro wrote: Umm.. yes? It's a thread about her death, not her politics. It's called "Margaret Thatcher dies..." If you allow death to push a person into a territory that is beyond critique, then all you're doing is engaging in a mythologizing idolatry. | ||
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Stardroid
United Kingdom159 Posts
On April 08 2013 21:40 AngryMag wrote: I read on another board people are setting up fire works. Of course I don't know if it is true though I think I know exactly where to put them | ||
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Atom Cannister
Germany380 Posts
On April 09 2013 05:53 KwarK wrote: I claimed that England committed ethnic cleansing in Ireland and you're now accusing me of denying atrocities and of ignoring your post. Maybe calm down and reread what I wrote. Not all rebels are common criminals. For example MLK was not a common criminal. The peaceful protestors on Bloody Sunday were not common criminals. The bomb makers murdering innocent civilians were. I don't understand how you're not seeing this line. When you murder innocent people you become a murderer. When you peacefully protest you become a peaceful protester. My point is that they're not common criminals and that should have had the status of political prisoners. Taken from wikipedia: "According to the Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English, a political prisoner is ‘someone who is in prison because they have opposed or criticized the government of their own country’." Do you disagree that this is what the hunger strikers were? Just read that quote, then read this: "Politics is politics and murder is murder, there isn't a crossover and being really hungry doesn't change that. It's unfortunate that Bobby Sands thought that if he got hungry enough then murder would become political but his eventual death wasn't enough to convince me." Then, read them both again, maybe 5 times, to let it sink in. You don't have to apologise for the offense you've caused me as long as you actually learn. That is actually all I want. Please don't ever speak about such culturally delicate topics in the manner you have been in this thread again. Especially when you're arguing on the side of those who tried their hardest to eradicate the other's culture in every form. | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
On April 09 2013 05:58 DocTheMedic wrote: All this political talk should go in a thread of it's own. Condolences to her family and friends. ye we need to keep this thread clear so that the 100s of thatchers who browse TL have somewhere the mourn. | ||
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KwarK
United States42646 Posts
Bobby Sands was a criminal. He committed his crimes for political reasons but it was not his politics that led him to be imprisoned, it was his criminality. You can say "I disagree with the Westminster government's policies" as much as you like and try and change them within the law as much as you like and that will not land you in prison. If it does land you in prison (which it won't in the UK but hypothetically) then you become a political prisoner, a prisoner who is being held on account of your political views. This is not what happened in his case. What happened to him was he was found guilty of engaging in criminal acts which are criminal regardless of the reason for committing them. He then decided to starve himself. He was not denied food, he denied himself food. The man was a murderer for killing people and a moron for not understanding the definition of a political prisoner. He then became a very hungy moronic murderer before eventually becoming a dead one. I shed no tears. If I robbed a house and then claimed that I did it because I'm a communist and I don't believe in private property I'd still be a thief, just a thief with political views. If I burned a medical research lab and then claimed I did it because I don't believe in animal testing for research I'd still be an arsonist, just an arsonist with political views. If I murdered civilians and then claimed I did it because I somehow equated it with a nationalistic struggle I'd still be a murderer, just a murderer with the unimaginable arrogance to believe that my ideological beliefs gave me the right to kill another human being. | ||
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