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United States43430 Posts
On August 03 2013 03:47 Snusmumriken wrote:
Look, can we all at least agree that if you actually KNOW a person wouldnt want to sleep with you if they knew something about you, no matter what it is, then you should tell them before having sex with them, otherwise youre doing something immoral. Does everyone agree with this?
I believe Klondike was of the "fuck those guys, I don't think it matters" persuasion.
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On August 03 2013 03:49 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:47 Snusmumriken wrote:
Look, can we all at least agree that if you actually KNOW a person doesnt want to sleep with you if they knew something about you, no matter what it is, then you should tell them before having sex with them, otherwise youre doing something immoral. Does everyone agree with this? Yes, if you can confirm they do not care about sleeping with someone who is transgender without informing them you are transgender(ie, they were in a past relationship or simple expressed indifference), then there is no problem and no requirement to inform them.
Right, the other way around would be to learn what the person think about transgender, like with starting a casual conversation with them without implying anything about yourself to stay safe. Similar to how you can "test the water" before coming out to someone close.
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On August 03 2013 03:47 Snusmumriken wrote:
Look, can we all at least agree that if you actually KNOW a person wouldnt want to sleep with you if they knew something about you, no matter what it is, then you should tell them before having sex with them, otherwise youre doing something immoral. Does everyone agree with this?
Yep, I agree with that.
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On August 03 2013 03:51 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:47 Snusmumriken wrote:
Look, can we all at least agree that if you actually KNOW a person wouldnt want to sleep with you if they knew something about you, no matter what it is, then you should tell them before having sex with them, otherwise youre doing something immoral. Does everyone agree with this? I believe Klondike was of the "fuck those guys, I don't think it matters" persuasion.
I don't think that's a fair assessment of what he said in this thread - especially considering he can't reply to it atm.
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On August 03 2013 03:51 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:47 Snusmumriken wrote:
Look, can we all at least agree that if you actually KNOW a person wouldnt want to sleep with you if they knew something about you, no matter what it is, then you should tell them before having sex with them, otherwise youre doing something immoral. Does everyone agree with this? I believe Klondike was of the "fuck those guys, I don't think it matters" persuasion.
I think he was closer to some sort of they do want as long as they don't know, so I'm sort of bypassing their irrational prejudice and doing them a sort of semi-favor.
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Would it be too far for me to suggest that this tangent about the immediate issues surrounding "disclosure" is indicative of a culture that tells trans people "we think you're weird and scary so you have to be x for us"?
Saying "You are worth as much as other people" really is just idealized lip service when the actions of society say that trans people are not (this is why civil liberties movements and social justice are things).
It doesn't matter what individuals may think or say because those are ineffective. What matters is what is actually put into practice and what is put into practice in US culture is that trans women are considered less than human and it is acceptable to target them for prejudice, bigotry, hatred, and even violence.
You say trans people are worth just as much as anyone else? I say prove it.
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On August 03 2013 03:49 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:47 Snusmumriken wrote:
Look, can we all at least agree that if you actually KNOW a person doesnt want to sleep with you if they knew something about you, no matter what it is, then you should tell them before having sex with them, otherwise youre doing something immoral. Does everyone agree with this? Yes, if you can confirm they do not care about sleeping with someone who is transgender without informing them you are transgender(ie, they were in a past relationship or simple expressed indifference), then there is no problem and no requirement to inform them.
I think everyone can agree with that.
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On August 03 2013 03:57 RaspberrySC2 wrote:
Would it be too far for me to suggest that this tangent about the immediate issues surrounding "disclosure" is indicative of a culture that tells trans people "we think you're weird and scary so you have to be x for us"?
Saying "You are worth as much as other people" really is just idealized lip service when the actions of society say that trans people are not (this is why civil liberties movements and social justice are things).
It doesn't matter what individuals may think or say because those are ineffective. What matters is what is actually put into practice and what is put into practice in US culture is that trans women are considered less than human and it is acceptable to target them for prejudice, bigotry, hatred, and even violence.
You say trans people are worth just as much as anyone else? I say prove it.
you can ask the same question about the blacks 50 years ago. its a slow process and its unfair, there is no denying that. but you cant also dismiss how a person is shaped by culture without choice. vast majority of the population are "irrational" and unfortunately thats how the real world is.
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On August 03 2013 03:53 Shodaa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:49 Plansix wrote:On August 03 2013 03:47 Snusmumriken wrote:
Look, can we all at least agree that if you actually KNOW a person doesnt want to sleep with you if they knew something about you, no matter what it is, then you should tell them before having sex with them, otherwise youre doing something immoral. Does everyone agree with this? Yes, if you can confirm they do not care about sleeping with someone who is transgender without informing them you are transgender(ie, they were in a past relationship or simple expressed indifference), then there is no problem and no requirement to inform them. Right, the other way around would be to learn what the person think about transgender, like with starting a casual conversation with them without implying anything about yourself to stay safe. Similar to how you can "test the water" before coming out to someone close.
Look, I agree, I would totally test the waters to make sure someone is not transphobic before sleeping with them. I actually am of the opinion that honesty is the best policy. I just think there's a weird double standard here where trans women are required to do way more disclosure than you are. Maybe not most, but a lot of people (a significant 'statistic' as Kwark might call it) don't want to sleep with transphobic or racist individuals. I think that if trans women are morally obligated to "test" the waters, then you are as well.
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On August 03 2013 03:48 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:47 Snusmumriken wrote:
Look, can we all at least agree that if you actually KNOW a person doesnt want to sleep with you if they knew something about you, no matter what it is, then you should tell them before having sex with them, otherwise youre doing something immoral. Does everyone agree with this? I'm pretty much on the same page here.
Great. Seems most people in here agree. The rest is more of a grey area in my opinion, and right and wrong isnt as clearcut. Anyway, this is how I would reason:
a) how do we know any of these things
b) how many people does it have to be a problem for in order for me to draw the conclusion that I ought to tell everyone I sleep with "just in case".
For me, if a majority of people in society find a certain fact about me, fact x, to be a dealbreaker then I ought to tell people about fact x before I sleep with them (inductive inference tells me theres a high likelihood that fact x is a dealbreaker for every particular person im hooking up with). And until a sizable - though the size will always be somewhat arbitrary - minority of people share fact x with me it should pretty much solely remain my own responsibility to inform the I sleep with about it. If a lot of people share fact x with me however, then its not as much my responsibility to tell as it is my potential partners responsibility to ask.
I think that if trans women are morally obligated to "test" the waters, then you are as well.
I agree. The actual thing cant matter, the only thing that matters is whether it is something you have a valid reason to believe could be a dealbreaker for the particular person youre about to sleep with.
I would also add that if its extremely unlikely that this person could find out about it and it doesnt affect them if they dont know, its still immoral but less so than if its easy to find out. But maybe thats just me ^^
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On August 03 2013 03:44 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:39 ComaDose wrote:On August 03 2013 03:37 Plansix wrote:On August 03 2013 03:36 ComaDose wrote:
I see how being morally obligated to put yourself at physical risk if you want to have sex can make you feel worth less than the person whose outdated views are making it necessary. You put yourself at similar risk or greater risk if you withhold the information and they find out later. I see how being morally obligated to always puting yourself at physical risk if you want to have sex can make you feel worth less than the person whose outdated views are making it necessary. alright ftfy There's nothing outdated about the view that one wants to have sex with a cisgender woman. Frankly, it's not your place to decide whether people's sexual preferences or fetishes are "outdated" unless they actually are harmful/immoral in themselves, and these obviously aren't, lol.
God i hope making the distinction between cis gendered and trans gendered persons for unrelated things is out dated soon :/
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On August 03 2013 04:01 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:53 Shodaa wrote:On August 03 2013 03:49 Plansix wrote:On August 03 2013 03:47 Snusmumriken wrote:
Look, can we all at least agree that if you actually KNOW a person doesnt want to sleep with you if they knew something about you, no matter what it is, then you should tell them before having sex with them, otherwise youre doing something immoral. Does everyone agree with this? Yes, if you can confirm they do not care about sleeping with someone who is transgender without informing them you are transgender(ie, they were in a past relationship or simple expressed indifference), then there is no problem and no requirement to inform them. Right, the other way around would be to learn what the person think about transgender, like with starting a casual conversation with them without implying anything about yourself to stay safe. Similar to how you can "test the water" before coming out to someone close. Look, I agree, I would totally test the waters to make sure someone is not transphobic before sleeping with them. I actually am of the opinion that honesty is the best policy. I just think there's a weird double standard here where trans women are required to do way more disclosure than you are. Maybe not most, but a lot of people (a significant 'statistic' as Kwark might call it) don't want to sleep with transphobic or racist individuals. I think that if trans women are morally obligated to "test" the waters, then you are as well.
There are a lot of weird double standards in the bed room when it comes to one night stands. Males are generally have to be more careful about consent, as any accusations of rape made a woman will be taken very seriously and assumed to be valid, even if they are not. The bedroom is not a fair place.
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On August 03 2013 04:01 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:53 Shodaa wrote:On August 03 2013 03:49 Plansix wrote:On August 03 2013 03:47 Snusmumriken wrote:
Look, can we all at least agree that if you actually KNOW a person doesnt want to sleep with you if they knew something about you, no matter what it is, then you should tell them before having sex with them, otherwise youre doing something immoral. Does everyone agree with this? Yes, if you can confirm they do not care about sleeping with someone who is transgender without informing them you are transgender(ie, they were in a past relationship or simple expressed indifference), then there is no problem and no requirement to inform them. Right, the other way around would be to learn what the person think about transgender, like with starting a casual conversation with them without implying anything about yourself to stay safe. Similar to how you can "test the water" before coming out to someone close. Look, I agree, I would totally test the waters to make sure someone is not transphobic before sleeping with them. I actually am of the opinion that honesty is the best policy. I just think there's a weird double standard here where trans women are required to do way more disclosure than you are. Maybe not most, but a lot of people (a significant 'statistic' as Kwark might call it) don't want to sleep with transphobic or racist individuals. I think that if trans women are morally obligated to "test" the waters, then you are as well.
I am trans btw. I guess this is how I would do it if I was interested. Just for safety reason.
Bu, yea I agree with the rest of your post, if you have a problem with something, try to mention it or test the water. But I think the problem is also that a lot of people are unaware or don't have experience regarding trans people.
More education is needed really.
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On August 03 2013 04:07 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 04:01 shinosai wrote:On August 03 2013 03:53 Shodaa wrote:On August 03 2013 03:49 Plansix wrote:On August 03 2013 03:47 Snusmumriken wrote:
Look, can we all at least agree that if you actually KNOW a person doesnt want to sleep with you if they knew something about you, no matter what it is, then you should tell them before having sex with them, otherwise youre doing something immoral. Does everyone agree with this? Yes, if you can confirm they do not care about sleeping with someone who is transgender without informing them you are transgender(ie, they were in a past relationship or simple expressed indifference), then there is no problem and no requirement to inform them. Right, the other way around would be to learn what the person think about transgender, like with starting a casual conversation with them without implying anything about yourself to stay safe. Similar to how you can "test the water" before coming out to someone close. Look, I agree, I would totally test the waters to make sure someone is not transphobic before sleeping with them. I actually am of the opinion that honesty is the best policy. I just think there's a weird double standard here where trans women are required to do way more disclosure than you are. Maybe not most, but a lot of people (a significant 'statistic' as Kwark might call it) don't want to sleep with transphobic or racist individuals. I think that if trans women are morally obligated to "test" the waters, then you are as well. There are a lot of weird double standards in the bed room when it comes to one night stands. Males are generally have to be more careful about consent, as any accusations of rape made a woman will be taken very seriously and assumed to be valid, even if they are not. The bedroom is not a fair place.
I think it's kind of off topic, but really important to note that most accusations of rape are not taken seriously (or seriously enough). Hence why the vast, vast majority of rapists are never prosecuted.
That being said, if you acknowledge there's a double standard, then do you agree that you are morally obligated to inform partners of your phobias?
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On August 03 2013 03:57 RaspberrySC2 wrote:
Would it be too far for me to suggest that this tangent about the immediate issues surrounding "disclosure" is indicative of a culture that tells trans people "we think you're weird and scary so you have to be x for us"?
Saying "You are worth as much as other people" really is just idealized lip service when the actions of society say that trans people are not (this is why civil liberties movements and social justice are things).
It doesn't matter what individuals may think or say because those are ineffective. What matters is what is actually put into practice and what is put into practice in US culture is that trans women are considered less than human and it is acceptable to target them for prejudice, bigotry, hatred, and even violence.
You say trans people are worth just as much as anyone else? I say prove it.
Blind people can't read the shit we write or watch the movies we make. Ugly people have a harder time getting laid. Stupid people get less prestigious jobs. Nobody thinks everybody is worth literally the same. Transsexuals seem to be, generally and overall, less desirable as sexual partners - this is something which might be true, statistically, which I haven't done any actual research on.
Everybody isn't equal, in the literal sense. The principle of equality means that everybody, regardless of disabilities or appearance or preference, have the same basic rights. It means you have to respect their right to make their own decisions and treat them fairly, i.e. only by relevant characteristics, in the workplace and that the law have to consider them equals. It does not mean you have an obligation to take an equal sexual interest in everybody or have your circle of friends be representative of the population as a whole.
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On August 03 2013 04:01 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:57 RaspberrySC2 wrote:
Would it be too far for me to suggest that this tangent about the immediate issues surrounding "disclosure" is indicative of a culture that tells trans people "we think you're weird and scary so you have to be x for us"?
Saying "You are worth as much as other people" really is just idealized lip service when the actions of society say that trans people are not (this is why civil liberties movements and social justice are things).
It doesn't matter what individuals may think or say because those are ineffective. What matters is what is actually put into practice and what is put into practice in US culture is that trans women are considered less than human and it is acceptable to target them for prejudice, bigotry, hatred, and even violence.
You say trans people are worth just as much as anyone else? I say prove it. you can ask the same question about the blacks 50 years ago. its a slow process and its unfair, there is no denying that. but you cant also dismiss how a person is shaped by culture without choice. vast majority of the population are "irrational" and unfortunately thats how the real world is.
Without being snarky, I will say that I find your response along with the bolded statement fairly ironic.
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On August 03 2013 04:12 RaspberrySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 04:01 jinorazi wrote:On August 03 2013 03:57 RaspberrySC2 wrote:
Would it be too far for me to suggest that this tangent about the immediate issues surrounding "disclosure" is indicative of a culture that tells trans people "we think you're weird and scary so you have to be x for us"?
Saying "You are worth as much as other people" really is just idealized lip service when the actions of society say that trans people are not (this is why civil liberties movements and social justice are things).
It doesn't matter what individuals may think or say because those are ineffective. What matters is what is actually put into practice and what is put into practice in US culture is that trans women are considered less than human and it is acceptable to target them for prejudice, bigotry, hatred, and even violence.
You say trans people are worth just as much as anyone else? I say prove it. you can ask the same question about the blacks 50 years ago. its a slow process and its unfair, there is no denying that. but you cant also dismiss how a person is shaped by culture without choice. vast majority of the population are "irrational" and unfortunately thats how the real world is. Without being snarky, I will say that I find your response along with the bolded statement fairly ironic.
i've been getting picked on for using wrong words for wrong context...T.T sorry but my english voab is limited (or my understanding of it)
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On August 03 2013 04:12 RaspberrySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 04:01 jinorazi wrote:On August 03 2013 03:57 RaspberrySC2 wrote:
Would it be too far for me to suggest that this tangent about the immediate issues surrounding "disclosure" is indicative of a culture that tells trans people "we think you're weird and scary so you have to be x for us"?
Saying "You are worth as much as other people" really is just idealized lip service when the actions of society say that trans people are not (this is why civil liberties movements and social justice are things).
It doesn't matter what individuals may think or say because those are ineffective. What matters is what is actually put into practice and what is put into practice in US culture is that trans women are considered less than human and it is acceptable to target them for prejudice, bigotry, hatred, and even violence.
You say trans people are worth just as much as anyone else? I say prove it. you can ask the same question about the blacks 50 years ago. its a slow process and its unfair, there is no denying that. but you cant also dismiss how a person is shaped by culture without choice. vast majority of the population are "irrational" and unfortunately thats how the real world is. Without being snarky, I will say that I find your response along with the bolded statement fairly ironic.
You should make sure you are aware if someone is using their first language beore making snippy comments.
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On August 03 2013 04:09 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 04:07 Plansix wrote:On August 03 2013 04:01 shinosai wrote:On August 03 2013 03:53 Shodaa wrote:On August 03 2013 03:49 Plansix wrote:On August 03 2013 03:47 Snusmumriken wrote:
Look, can we all at least agree that if you actually KNOW a person doesnt want to sleep with you if they knew something about you, no matter what it is, then you should tell them before having sex with them, otherwise youre doing something immoral. Does everyone agree with this? Yes, if you can confirm they do not care about sleeping with someone who is transgender without informing them you are transgender(ie, they were in a past relationship or simple expressed indifference), then there is no problem and no requirement to inform them. Right, the other way around would be to learn what the person think about transgender, like with starting a casual conversation with them without implying anything about yourself to stay safe. Similar to how you can "test the water" before coming out to someone close. Look, I agree, I would totally test the waters to make sure someone is not transphobic before sleeping with them. I actually am of the opinion that honesty is the best policy. I just think there's a weird double standard here where trans women are required to do way more disclosure than you are. Maybe not most, but a lot of people (a significant 'statistic' as Kwark might call it) don't want to sleep with transphobic or racist individuals. I think that if trans women are morally obligated to "test" the waters, then you are as well. There are a lot of weird double standards in the bed room when it comes to one night stands. Males are generally have to be more careful about consent, as any accusations of rape made a woman will be taken very seriously and assumed to be valid, even if they are not. The bedroom is not a fair place. I think it's kind of off topic, but really important to note that most accusations of rape are not taken seriously (or seriously enough). Hence why the vast, vast majority of rapists are never prosecuted. That being said, if you acknowledge there's a double standard, then do you agree that you are morally obligated to inform partners of your phobias?
There is a Lacross team from Duke that wishes that was always the case with false rape reports.
And yes, we are obligated to inform people of any hang ups you might have. Or at least things they would object to. I mean, if someone won't sleep with gun owners, they should likely let people know(weirdest, non-racial phobia I could think of)
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On August 03 2013 04:09 Darkwhite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:57 RaspberrySC2 wrote:
Would it be too far for me to suggest that this tangent about the immediate issues surrounding "disclosure" is indicative of a culture that tells trans people "we think you're weird and scary so you have to be x for us"?
Saying "You are worth as much as other people" really is just idealized lip service when the actions of society say that trans people are not (this is why civil liberties movements and social justice are things).
It doesn't matter what individuals may think or say because those are ineffective. What matters is what is actually put into practice and what is put into practice in US culture is that trans women are considered less than human and it is acceptable to target them for prejudice, bigotry, hatred, and even violence.
You say trans people are worth just as much as anyone else? I say prove it. Blind people can't read the shit we write or watch the movies we make. Ugly people have a harder time getting laid. Stupid people get less prestigious jobs. Nobody thinks everybody is worth literally the same. Transsexuals seem to be, generally and overall, less desirable as sexual partners - this is something which might be true, statistically, which I haven't done any actual research on. Everybody isn't equal, in the literal sense. The principle of equality means that everybody, regardless of disabilities or appearance or preference, have the same basic rights. It means you have to respect their right to make their own decisions and treat them fairly, i.e. only by relevant characteristics, in the workplace and that the law have to consider them equals. It does not mean you have an obligation to take an equal sexual interest in everybody or have your circle of friends be representative of the population as a whole.
We're not talking about just sex at this point, but I will say that many men find me sexually attractive because they let me know that they do. I am in no way trying to inflate my ego when I say that I can literally have sex with a different man every single day of the year if I wanted to because there really is that much of a line.
Being sexually desirable does not mean that I am equal in society. The bolded part of your statement is inherently false in US society because trans people do *not* have equal rights and protections.
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EPT
