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United States43220 Posts
On August 03 2013 03:18 Iyerbeth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:16 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 03:14 Iyerbeth wrote:
Another question, if a trans person has a moral duty to disclose that information, does society have a moral duty to protect them from the social consequences via legislation about not sharing voluntarily disclosed confidential information? Discrimination against trans people is obviously wrong. Society has an obligation to protect every member, trans or not, from abuse, harassment, violence and so forth. But I mean, if we accept a trans person should disclose, should there be penalties for those who then share that information considering there will always be negative consequences?
No. Ultimately trans people are freely choosing to disclose. It sucks that they've essentially been born with cursed genitals as far as much of society is concerned and they're forced to choose between keeping their genitals to themselves and letting people know about their cursed genitals but that is still their decision. Besides, the alternative is unenforceable. Still, I don't accept that there will always be negative consequences, that is something we can work on as a society.
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On August 03 2013 03:11 Iyerbeth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:05 Darkwhite wrote:On August 03 2013 02:45 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 03 2013 01:58 Darkwhite wrote:On August 02 2013 05:15 Iyerbeth wrote:
For the incest argument, you're conflating non disclosure of a one night stand betwen two strangers with someone seeking someone out specifically because of information about them specifically and then dating them. So, if I randomly happen upon her in a nightclub while travelling, she doesn't know we're cousins but I do know, then I'm not obliged to let her know? Whereas, if I was actively seeking her out instead, I would have had to disclose our kinship? Mercy answered this well in explaining the difference, but then your next example of the twins thing is again an example of someone having a priori knowledge about someone else (that her husband has a twin) and then using that knowledge, again in an instance of actively seeking out that individual. But it isn't personal knowledge about her that I am not her husband. It's personal information about me - that I am a different individual than she mistakenly happens to think. In this case, she is confused about my identity rather than my transsexuality. I am completely at loss now about what sort of moral principle dictates that confusions about identity and kinship and diseases must be rectified, whereas transsexuality gets a free ride. Just to be clear you think these two scenarios post the same moral issues? 1: Someone has a married twin brother, and is aware that person's wife doesn't know. He uses that knowledge to seek out a sexual encounter with her without her knowledge. 2: Two people with no knowledge of each other meet in a club. They have a one night stand without disclosing anything to each other, but one could have disclosed she was trans. I was originally going to have point two as he too, but for some reason people tend to care less about trans men. I fear it's because a lot of men have 'trap' mentality.
They are different scenarios. Each of them can be used to discuss a number of different moral issues. Your number one seems more malicious, i.e. with an overt intent to deceive instead of (2)'s less malicious neglect to inform, but I feel both violate the same fundamental right of the sexual partner - to be informed about anything that:
- he couldn't be expected to know
- he could be expected to care about
On August 03 2013 03:18 Iyerbeth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:16 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 03:14 Iyerbeth wrote:
Another question, if a trans person has a moral duty to disclose that information, does society have a moral duty to protect them from the social consequences via legislation about not sharing voluntarily disclosed confidential information? Discrimination against trans people is obviously wrong. Society has an obligation to protect every member, trans or not, from abuse, harassment, violence and so forth. But I mean, if we accept a trans person should disclose, should there be penalties for those who then share that information considering there will always be negative consequences?
Spreading the information would be unethical, as publishing anything someone has disclosed to you in private is a breach of trust (except when it is overruled by more important principles, such as protecting children from abuse). If you are asking if this should be punishable by law, I would need to get back to you.
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On August 03 2013 03:12 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:11 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 03:05 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 02:59 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 02:49 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 02:45 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 02:38 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 01:58 fugs wrote:
A transwoman is the same as a ciswoman, I should not have to pass some freaky test to qualify as one kind of human being over another. Basing the 'difference' on surgery should be irrelevant because the surgery is none of your business. Your right to know the quality of a woman's vagina is trumped by the right of that woman to keep her medical information to herself. Sorry if you feel otherwise but there's a ton of entitlement going around in this thread and expecting transwomen to give you their most intimate details reeks of male entitlement.
I am a girl, it should really be that simple. Not telling you about being born with a penis is not rape, the penis is completely irrelevant because it doesn't exist anymore therefore the memory of that penis is not yours to be concerned about. You are afraid of an idea, an idea can't be persecuted and it can't be legally punished because it doesn't exist. The penis doesn't exist anymore, the flesh that it consisted of has been transformed. That flesh is the same flesh a cis woman's vagina is made out of (if you know how the penis is formed in the womb) so again, there is no difference outside of medical science's ability to repair nature's damage.
You heard that right guys, your penis is really an inverted vagina. If you don't like that you should blame nature for making you that way. <3
You don't get to decide what someone else views as relevant. This is something you and klondike seem to refuse to understand. You can think nothing could be less relevant but that doesn't make it irrelevant to someone else. It is immoral to conceal something which is, or is likely to be, very relevant to their decision to consent to sex for the purpose of getting them to consent to sex when they otherwise would not. Again, you do not get to decide what they find relevant or how valid their criteria are. Dismissing their criteria as dumb or saying "fuck that guy, I don't care" is pretty rapey. You misunderstand my argument. I'm implying privilege to information. You are not privileged to my medical history as it is personal and unless I tell you it is none of your business regardless of the situation. I am pointing out male entitlement and how it's affecting a woman's right to privacy. The information may be relevant to you, but you are not privileged to it. I am when you're asking me to consent to sex with you based upon flawed information. This is no different to having an STD in that regard. Not that I am saying that trans women are diseased, merely that society already has decided that things that can affect the partner should be disclosed before they consent to sex. And if you think that it can't have any impact then you are simply wrong. You might thing it shouldn't have, or that in a fair world it would not have, but you can't think that it will not have any impact. A person with aids needs to tell their partner about their STD because it could kill their partner. That is not the same as a medical issue that is not only not contagious, but in no way physically detrimental to their partner. I apologize but my personal medical information won't be brought into the open by popular opinion. I'm not a monster, and transsexuality is not contagious. The only people privvy to my medical history are my doctors. You've been implying the entire time that the man is trapped in a situation where they become the victim when that's not the case because it's the girl that's being forced to give away information that is her business and hers alone. Firstly and most importantly because we keep restating this and people keep not getting it. You do not get to decide what is detrimental to other people regarding their choice to consent to sex. They get to. Not you. Even if you think you know better. They get to decide. Not you. You can think "well it won't hurt them" as much as you like but if they don't want it, that's what counts. And that's before we look at the fact that a person could quite easily be left with all sorts of issues. A transphobe who views you as a man and himself as straight could be left traumatized, someone with transphobic/homophobic friends could be bullied and physically harassed for years as a result of your decision to deny them the right to informed consent. This involves them. You are not being forced to disclose anything right up until the point at which the information directly affects anyone else. Don't pretend this is about forcibly outing you, it's not, it's about protecting other people. If it was about forcibly outing you then we wouldn't need to involve consent. I don't mean to imply that their right to consent is based on my beliefs, but this false sense of obligation stems completely from negative opinion. Why is protecting people from negative opinion a double edged sword for me? Why do I have to babysit their transphobia while at the same time be berated by it? Because where their belief comes from doesn't matter when it comes down to whether or not they have a right to informed consent. You can think they're a complete fucking retard but you still don't get to knowingly deny them information which would impact their decision to consent to sex. I'm sorry, it sucks that the world isn't fair to you guys but that does not change this principle.
Why's this principle more important, because it's popular? Why do I need to adhere to their transphobia, why must I always fucking make sure that they are more comfortable than I am? Why can't I just be a woman and have it be left at that?
Just... god dammit. Why am I worth so little?
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On August 03 2013 03:21 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:18 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 03 2013 03:16 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 03:14 Iyerbeth wrote:
Another question, if a trans person has a moral duty to disclose that information, does society have a moral duty to protect them from the social consequences via legislation about not sharing voluntarily disclosed confidential information? Discrimination against trans people is obviously wrong. Society has an obligation to protect every member, trans or not, from abuse, harassment, violence and so forth. But I mean, if we accept a trans person should disclose, should there be penalties for those who then share that information considering there will always be negative consequences? No. Ultimately trans people are freely choosing to disclose. It sucks that they've essentially been born with cursed genitals as far as much of society is concerned and they're forced to choose between keeping their genitals to themselves and letting people know about their cursed genitals but that is still their decision. Besides, the alternative is unenforceable. Still, I don't accept that there will always be negative consequences, that is something we can work on as a society.
If the information is shared there is the immediate consequence that the persons medical history has been shared against their consent, which is illegal in any other situation in which you gain access to it. I hope one day that the issues of unemployment, assault, sexual assault/rape, harrassment etc etc etc will be gone, but disclosure is never going to be in the interests of the trans person, it's done for others (or from fear of them). Sharing it magnifies the harm.
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United States43220 Posts
On August 03 2013 03:24 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:12 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 03:11 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 03:05 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 02:59 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 02:49 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 02:45 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 02:38 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 01:58 fugs wrote:
A transwoman is the same as a ciswoman, I should not have to pass some freaky test to qualify as one kind of human being over another. Basing the 'difference' on surgery should be irrelevant because the surgery is none of your business. Your right to know the quality of a woman's vagina is trumped by the right of that woman to keep her medical information to herself. Sorry if you feel otherwise but there's a ton of entitlement going around in this thread and expecting transwomen to give you their most intimate details reeks of male entitlement.
I am a girl, it should really be that simple. Not telling you about being born with a penis is not rape, the penis is completely irrelevant because it doesn't exist anymore therefore the memory of that penis is not yours to be concerned about. You are afraid of an idea, an idea can't be persecuted and it can't be legally punished because it doesn't exist. The penis doesn't exist anymore, the flesh that it consisted of has been transformed. That flesh is the same flesh a cis woman's vagina is made out of (if you know how the penis is formed in the womb) so again, there is no difference outside of medical science's ability to repair nature's damage.
You heard that right guys, your penis is really an inverted vagina. If you don't like that you should blame nature for making you that way. <3
You don't get to decide what someone else views as relevant. This is something you and klondike seem to refuse to understand. You can think nothing could be less relevant but that doesn't make it irrelevant to someone else. It is immoral to conceal something which is, or is likely to be, very relevant to their decision to consent to sex for the purpose of getting them to consent to sex when they otherwise would not. Again, you do not get to decide what they find relevant or how valid their criteria are. Dismissing their criteria as dumb or saying "fuck that guy, I don't care" is pretty rapey. You misunderstand my argument. I'm implying privilege to information. You are not privileged to my medical history as it is personal and unless I tell you it is none of your business regardless of the situation. I am pointing out male entitlement and how it's affecting a woman's right to privacy. The information may be relevant to you, but you are not privileged to it. I am when you're asking me to consent to sex with you based upon flawed information. This is no different to having an STD in that regard. Not that I am saying that trans women are diseased, merely that society already has decided that things that can affect the partner should be disclosed before they consent to sex. And if you think that it can't have any impact then you are simply wrong. You might thing it shouldn't have, or that in a fair world it would not have, but you can't think that it will not have any impact. A person with aids needs to tell their partner about their STD because it could kill their partner. That is not the same as a medical issue that is not only not contagious, but in no way physically detrimental to their partner. I apologize but my personal medical information won't be brought into the open by popular opinion. I'm not a monster, and transsexuality is not contagious. The only people privvy to my medical history are my doctors. You've been implying the entire time that the man is trapped in a situation where they become the victim when that's not the case because it's the girl that's being forced to give away information that is her business and hers alone. Firstly and most importantly because we keep restating this and people keep not getting it. You do not get to decide what is detrimental to other people regarding their choice to consent to sex. They get to. Not you. Even if you think you know better. They get to decide. Not you. You can think "well it won't hurt them" as much as you like but if they don't want it, that's what counts. And that's before we look at the fact that a person could quite easily be left with all sorts of issues. A transphobe who views you as a man and himself as straight could be left traumatized, someone with transphobic/homophobic friends could be bullied and physically harassed for years as a result of your decision to deny them the right to informed consent. This involves them. You are not being forced to disclose anything right up until the point at which the information directly affects anyone else. Don't pretend this is about forcibly outing you, it's not, it's about protecting other people. If it was about forcibly outing you then we wouldn't need to involve consent. I don't mean to imply that their right to consent is based on my beliefs, but this false sense of obligation stems completely from negative opinion. Why is protecting people from negative opinion a double edged sword for me? Why do I have to babysit their transphobia while at the same time be berated by it? Because where their belief comes from doesn't matter when it comes down to whether or not they have a right to informed consent. You can think they're a complete fucking retard but you still don't get to knowingly deny them information which would impact their decision to consent to sex. I'm sorry, it sucks that the world isn't fair to you guys but that does not change this principle. Why's this principle more important, because it's popular? Why do I need to adhere to their transphobia, why must I always fucking make sure that they are more comfortable than I am? Why can't I just be a woman and have it be left at that? Just... god dammit. Why am I worth so little?
You're worth the same as anyone else. The principle is important because it's free informed consent to sex and free informed consent to sex is a really important principle.
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On August 03 2013 03:24 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:12 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 03:11 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 03:05 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 02:59 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 02:49 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 02:45 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 02:38 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 01:58 fugs wrote:
A transwoman is the same as a ciswoman, I should not have to pass some freaky test to qualify as one kind of human being over another. Basing the 'difference' on surgery should be irrelevant because the surgery is none of your business. Your right to know the quality of a woman's vagina is trumped by the right of that woman to keep her medical information to herself. Sorry if you feel otherwise but there's a ton of entitlement going around in this thread and expecting transwomen to give you their most intimate details reeks of male entitlement.
I am a girl, it should really be that simple. Not telling you about being born with a penis is not rape, the penis is completely irrelevant because it doesn't exist anymore therefore the memory of that penis is not yours to be concerned about. You are afraid of an idea, an idea can't be persecuted and it can't be legally punished because it doesn't exist. The penis doesn't exist anymore, the flesh that it consisted of has been transformed. That flesh is the same flesh a cis woman's vagina is made out of (if you know how the penis is formed in the womb) so again, there is no difference outside of medical science's ability to repair nature's damage.
You heard that right guys, your penis is really an inverted vagina. If you don't like that you should blame nature for making you that way. <3
You don't get to decide what someone else views as relevant. This is something you and klondike seem to refuse to understand. You can think nothing could be less relevant but that doesn't make it irrelevant to someone else. It is immoral to conceal something which is, or is likely to be, very relevant to their decision to consent to sex for the purpose of getting them to consent to sex when they otherwise would not. Again, you do not get to decide what they find relevant or how valid their criteria are. Dismissing their criteria as dumb or saying "fuck that guy, I don't care" is pretty rapey. You misunderstand my argument. I'm implying privilege to information. You are not privileged to my medical history as it is personal and unless I tell you it is none of your business regardless of the situation. I am pointing out male entitlement and how it's affecting a woman's right to privacy. The information may be relevant to you, but you are not privileged to it. I am when you're asking me to consent to sex with you based upon flawed information. This is no different to having an STD in that regard. Not that I am saying that trans women are diseased, merely that society already has decided that things that can affect the partner should be disclosed before they consent to sex. And if you think that it can't have any impact then you are simply wrong. You might thing it shouldn't have, or that in a fair world it would not have, but you can't think that it will not have any impact. A person with aids needs to tell their partner about their STD because it could kill their partner. That is not the same as a medical issue that is not only not contagious, but in no way physically detrimental to their partner. I apologize but my personal medical information won't be brought into the open by popular opinion. I'm not a monster, and transsexuality is not contagious. The only people privvy to my medical history are my doctors. You've been implying the entire time that the man is trapped in a situation where they become the victim when that's not the case because it's the girl that's being forced to give away information that is her business and hers alone. Firstly and most importantly because we keep restating this and people keep not getting it. You do not get to decide what is detrimental to other people regarding their choice to consent to sex. They get to. Not you. Even if you think you know better. They get to decide. Not you. You can think "well it won't hurt them" as much as you like but if they don't want it, that's what counts. And that's before we look at the fact that a person could quite easily be left with all sorts of issues. A transphobe who views you as a man and himself as straight could be left traumatized, someone with transphobic/homophobic friends could be bullied and physically harassed for years as a result of your decision to deny them the right to informed consent. This involves them. You are not being forced to disclose anything right up until the point at which the information directly affects anyone else. Don't pretend this is about forcibly outing you, it's not, it's about protecting other people. If it was about forcibly outing you then we wouldn't need to involve consent. I don't mean to imply that their right to consent is based on my beliefs, but this false sense of obligation stems completely from negative opinion. Why is protecting people from negative opinion a double edged sword for me? Why do I have to babysit their transphobia while at the same time be berated by it? Because where their belief comes from doesn't matter when it comes down to whether or not they have a right to informed consent. You can think they're a complete fucking retard but you still don't get to knowingly deny them information which would impact their decision to consent to sex. I'm sorry, it sucks that the world isn't fair to you guys but that does not change this principle. Why's this principle more important, because it's popular? Why do I need to adhere to their transphobia, why must I always fucking make sure that they are more comfortable than I am? Why can't I just be a woman and have it be left at that? Just... god dammit. Why am I worth so little?
You don't have to, but its not a nice thing to do. No one things you are evil, but consent is important. Are you willing to ignore someones right to consent to something so you are confortable? And your worth the same as everyone else.
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On August 03 2013 03:27 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:24 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 03:12 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 03:11 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 03:05 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 02:59 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 02:49 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 02:45 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 02:38 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 01:58 fugs wrote:
A transwoman is the same as a ciswoman, I should not have to pass some freaky test to qualify as one kind of human being over another. Basing the 'difference' on surgery should be irrelevant because the surgery is none of your business. Your right to know the quality of a woman's vagina is trumped by the right of that woman to keep her medical information to herself. Sorry if you feel otherwise but there's a ton of entitlement going around in this thread and expecting transwomen to give you their most intimate details reeks of male entitlement.
I am a girl, it should really be that simple. Not telling you about being born with a penis is not rape, the penis is completely irrelevant because it doesn't exist anymore therefore the memory of that penis is not yours to be concerned about. You are afraid of an idea, an idea can't be persecuted and it can't be legally punished because it doesn't exist. The penis doesn't exist anymore, the flesh that it consisted of has been transformed. That flesh is the same flesh a cis woman's vagina is made out of (if you know how the penis is formed in the womb) so again, there is no difference outside of medical science's ability to repair nature's damage.
You heard that right guys, your penis is really an inverted vagina. If you don't like that you should blame nature for making you that way. <3
You don't get to decide what someone else views as relevant. This is something you and klondike seem to refuse to understand. You can think nothing could be less relevant but that doesn't make it irrelevant to someone else. It is immoral to conceal something which is, or is likely to be, very relevant to their decision to consent to sex for the purpose of getting them to consent to sex when they otherwise would not. Again, you do not get to decide what they find relevant or how valid their criteria are. Dismissing their criteria as dumb or saying "fuck that guy, I don't care" is pretty rapey. You misunderstand my argument. I'm implying privilege to information. You are not privileged to my medical history as it is personal and unless I tell you it is none of your business regardless of the situation. I am pointing out male entitlement and how it's affecting a woman's right to privacy. The information may be relevant to you, but you are not privileged to it. I am when you're asking me to consent to sex with you based upon flawed information. This is no different to having an STD in that regard. Not that I am saying that trans women are diseased, merely that society already has decided that things that can affect the partner should be disclosed before they consent to sex. And if you think that it can't have any impact then you are simply wrong. You might thing it shouldn't have, or that in a fair world it would not have, but you can't think that it will not have any impact. A person with aids needs to tell their partner about their STD because it could kill their partner. That is not the same as a medical issue that is not only not contagious, but in no way physically detrimental to their partner. I apologize but my personal medical information won't be brought into the open by popular opinion. I'm not a monster, and transsexuality is not contagious. The only people privvy to my medical history are my doctors. You've been implying the entire time that the man is trapped in a situation where they become the victim when that's not the case because it's the girl that's being forced to give away information that is her business and hers alone. Firstly and most importantly because we keep restating this and people keep not getting it. You do not get to decide what is detrimental to other people regarding their choice to consent to sex. They get to. Not you. Even if you think you know better. They get to decide. Not you. You can think "well it won't hurt them" as much as you like but if they don't want it, that's what counts. And that's before we look at the fact that a person could quite easily be left with all sorts of issues. A transphobe who views you as a man and himself as straight could be left traumatized, someone with transphobic/homophobic friends could be bullied and physically harassed for years as a result of your decision to deny them the right to informed consent. This involves them. You are not being forced to disclose anything right up until the point at which the information directly affects anyone else. Don't pretend this is about forcibly outing you, it's not, it's about protecting other people. If it was about forcibly outing you then we wouldn't need to involve consent. I don't mean to imply that their right to consent is based on my beliefs, but this false sense of obligation stems completely from negative opinion. Why is protecting people from negative opinion a double edged sword for me? Why do I have to babysit their transphobia while at the same time be berated by it? Because where their belief comes from doesn't matter when it comes down to whether or not they have a right to informed consent. You can think they're a complete fucking retard but you still don't get to knowingly deny them information which would impact their decision to consent to sex. I'm sorry, it sucks that the world isn't fair to you guys but that does not change this principle. Why's this principle more important, because it's popular? Why do I need to adhere to their transphobia, why must I always fucking make sure that they are more comfortable than I am? Why can't I just be a woman and have it be left at that? Just... god dammit. Why am I worth so little? You're worth the same as anyone else. The principle is important because it's free informed consent to sex and free informed consent to sex is a really important principle.
It's more important than my safety? More important than my privacy? More important than my right to life liberty and happiness? I could be fired, killed, kicked out of my home. If that's really the case then no, no I'm not worth as much as anyone else.
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United States43220 Posts
On August 03 2013 03:31 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:27 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 03:24 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 03:12 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 03:11 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 03:05 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 02:59 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 02:49 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 02:45 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 02:38 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
You don't get to decide what someone else views as relevant. This is something you and klondike seem to refuse to understand. You can think nothing could be less relevant but that doesn't make it irrelevant to someone else.
It is immoral to conceal something which is, or is likely to be, very relevant to their decision to consent to sex for the purpose of getting them to consent to sex when they otherwise would not. Again, you do not get to decide what they find relevant or how valid their criteria are. Dismissing their criteria as dumb or saying "fuck that guy, I don't care" is pretty rapey. You misunderstand my argument. I'm implying privilege to information. You are not privileged to my medical history as it is personal and unless I tell you it is none of your business regardless of the situation. I am pointing out male entitlement and how it's affecting a woman's right to privacy. The information may be relevant to you, but you are not privileged to it. I am when you're asking me to consent to sex with you based upon flawed information. This is no different to having an STD in that regard. Not that I am saying that trans women are diseased, merely that society already has decided that things that can affect the partner should be disclosed before they consent to sex. And if you think that it can't have any impact then you are simply wrong. You might thing it shouldn't have, or that in a fair world it would not have, but you can't think that it will not have any impact. A person with aids needs to tell their partner about their STD because it could kill their partner. That is not the same as a medical issue that is not only not contagious, but in no way physically detrimental to their partner. I apologize but my personal medical information won't be brought into the open by popular opinion. I'm not a monster, and transsexuality is not contagious. The only people privvy to my medical history are my doctors. You've been implying the entire time that the man is trapped in a situation where they become the victim when that's not the case because it's the girl that's being forced to give away information that is her business and hers alone. Firstly and most importantly because we keep restating this and people keep not getting it. You do not get to decide what is detrimental to other people regarding their choice to consent to sex. They get to. Not you. Even if you think you know better. They get to decide. Not you. You can think "well it won't hurt them" as much as you like but if they don't want it, that's what counts. And that's before we look at the fact that a person could quite easily be left with all sorts of issues. A transphobe who views you as a man and himself as straight could be left traumatized, someone with transphobic/homophobic friends could be bullied and physically harassed for years as a result of your decision to deny them the right to informed consent. This involves them. You are not being forced to disclose anything right up until the point at which the information directly affects anyone else. Don't pretend this is about forcibly outing you, it's not, it's about protecting other people. If it was about forcibly outing you then we wouldn't need to involve consent. I don't mean to imply that their right to consent is based on my beliefs, but this false sense of obligation stems completely from negative opinion. Why is protecting people from negative opinion a double edged sword for me? Why do I have to babysit their transphobia while at the same time be berated by it? Because where their belief comes from doesn't matter when it comes down to whether or not they have a right to informed consent. You can think they're a complete fucking retard but you still don't get to knowingly deny them information which would impact their decision to consent to sex. I'm sorry, it sucks that the world isn't fair to you guys but that does not change this principle. Why's this principle more important, because it's popular? Why do I need to adhere to their transphobia, why must I always fucking make sure that they are more comfortable than I am? Why can't I just be a woman and have it be left at that? Just... god dammit. Why am I worth so little? You're worth the same as anyone else. The principle is important because it's free informed consent to sex and free informed consent to sex is a really important principle. It's more important than my safety? More important than my privacy? More important than my right to life liberty and happiness? I could be fired, killed, kicked out of my home. If that's really the case then no, no I'm not worth as much as anyone else.
Two wrongs don't make a right. Your argument is simply "people are mean to me so I don't have to give informed consent". It doesn't work that way.
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On August 03 2013 03:32 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:31 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 03:27 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 03:24 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 03:12 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 03:11 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 03:05 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 02:59 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 02:49 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 02:45 fugs wrote:
[quote]
You misunderstand my argument. I'm implying privilege to information. You are not privileged to my medical history as it is personal and unless I tell you it is none of your business regardless of the situation. I am pointing out male entitlement and how it's affecting a woman's right to privacy.
The information may be relevant to you, but you are not privileged to it. I am when you're asking me to consent to sex with you based upon flawed information. This is no different to having an STD in that regard. Not that I am saying that trans women are diseased, merely that society already has decided that things that can affect the partner should be disclosed before they consent to sex. And if you think that it can't have any impact then you are simply wrong. You might thing it shouldn't have, or that in a fair world it would not have, but you can't think that it will not have any impact. A person with aids needs to tell their partner about their STD because it could kill their partner. That is not the same as a medical issue that is not only not contagious, but in no way physically detrimental to their partner. I apologize but my personal medical information won't be brought into the open by popular opinion. I'm not a monster, and transsexuality is not contagious. The only people privvy to my medical history are my doctors. You've been implying the entire time that the man is trapped in a situation where they become the victim when that's not the case because it's the girl that's being forced to give away information that is her business and hers alone. Firstly and most importantly because we keep restating this and people keep not getting it. You do not get to decide what is detrimental to other people regarding their choice to consent to sex. They get to. Not you. Even if you think you know better. They get to decide. Not you. You can think "well it won't hurt them" as much as you like but if they don't want it, that's what counts. And that's before we look at the fact that a person could quite easily be left with all sorts of issues. A transphobe who views you as a man and himself as straight could be left traumatized, someone with transphobic/homophobic friends could be bullied and physically harassed for years as a result of your decision to deny them the right to informed consent. This involves them. You are not being forced to disclose anything right up until the point at which the information directly affects anyone else. Don't pretend this is about forcibly outing you, it's not, it's about protecting other people. If it was about forcibly outing you then we wouldn't need to involve consent. I don't mean to imply that their right to consent is based on my beliefs, but this false sense of obligation stems completely from negative opinion. Why is protecting people from negative opinion a double edged sword for me? Why do I have to babysit their transphobia while at the same time be berated by it? Because where their belief comes from doesn't matter when it comes down to whether or not they have a right to informed consent. You can think they're a complete fucking retard but you still don't get to knowingly deny them information which would impact their decision to consent to sex. I'm sorry, it sucks that the world isn't fair to you guys but that does not change this principle. Why's this principle more important, because it's popular? Why do I need to adhere to their transphobia, why must I always fucking make sure that they are more comfortable than I am? Why can't I just be a woman and have it be left at that? Just... god dammit. Why am I worth so little? You're worth the same as anyone else. The principle is important because it's free informed consent to sex and free informed consent to sex is a really important principle. It's more important than my safety? More important than my privacy? More important than my right to life liberty and happiness? I could be fired, killed, kicked out of my home. If that's really the case then no, no I'm not worth as much as anyone else. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Same can be said for your side of the argument. We really are comparing rights here, just who's are more important?
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United States43220 Posts
On August 03 2013 03:34 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:32 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 03:31 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 03:27 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 03:24 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 03:12 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 03:11 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 03:05 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 02:59 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 02:49 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
I am when you're asking me to consent to sex with you based upon flawed information. This is no different to having an STD in that regard. Not that I am saying that trans women are diseased, merely that society already has decided that things that can affect the partner should be disclosed before they consent to sex. And if you think that it can't have any impact then you are simply wrong. You might thing it shouldn't have, or that in a fair world it would not have, but you can't think that it will not have any impact. A person with aids needs to tell their partner about their STD because it could kill their partner. That is not the same as a medical issue that is not only not contagious, but in no way physically detrimental to their partner. I apologize but my personal medical information won't be brought into the open by popular opinion. I'm not a monster, and transsexuality is not contagious. The only people privvy to my medical history are my doctors. You've been implying the entire time that the man is trapped in a situation where they become the victim when that's not the case because it's the girl that's being forced to give away information that is her business and hers alone. Firstly and most importantly because we keep restating this and people keep not getting it. You do not get to decide what is detrimental to other people regarding their choice to consent to sex. They get to. Not you. Even if you think you know better. They get to decide. Not you. You can think "well it won't hurt them" as much as you like but if they don't want it, that's what counts. And that's before we look at the fact that a person could quite easily be left with all sorts of issues. A transphobe who views you as a man and himself as straight could be left traumatized, someone with transphobic/homophobic friends could be bullied and physically harassed for years as a result of your decision to deny them the right to informed consent. This involves them. You are not being forced to disclose anything right up until the point at which the information directly affects anyone else. Don't pretend this is about forcibly outing you, it's not, it's about protecting other people. If it was about forcibly outing you then we wouldn't need to involve consent. I don't mean to imply that their right to consent is based on my beliefs, but this false sense of obligation stems completely from negative opinion. Why is protecting people from negative opinion a double edged sword for me? Why do I have to babysit their transphobia while at the same time be berated by it? Because where their belief comes from doesn't matter when it comes down to whether or not they have a right to informed consent. You can think they're a complete fucking retard but you still don't get to knowingly deny them information which would impact their decision to consent to sex. I'm sorry, it sucks that the world isn't fair to you guys but that does not change this principle. Why's this principle more important, because it's popular? Why do I need to adhere to their transphobia, why must I always fucking make sure that they are more comfortable than I am? Why can't I just be a woman and have it be left at that? Just... god dammit. Why am I worth so little? You're worth the same as anyone else. The principle is important because it's free informed consent to sex and free informed consent to sex is a really important principle. It's more important than my safety? More important than my privacy? More important than my right to life liberty and happiness? I could be fired, killed, kicked out of my home. If that's really the case then no, no I'm not worth as much as anyone else. Two wrongs don't make a right. Same can be said for your side of the argument. We really are comparing rights here, just who's are more important?
Consent is. You could just not have sex with people. This issue comes up because you want to protect yourself while involving other people in your medical stuff, it doesn't work like that.
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I see how being morally obligated to put yourself at physical risk if you want to have sex can make you feel worth less than the person whose outdated views are making it necessary.
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On August 03 2013 03:24 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:12 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 03:11 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 03:05 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 02:59 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 02:49 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 02:45 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 02:38 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 01:58 fugs wrote:
A transwoman is the same as a ciswoman, I should not have to pass some freaky test to qualify as one kind of human being over another. Basing the 'difference' on surgery should be irrelevant because the surgery is none of your business. Your right to know the quality of a woman's vagina is trumped by the right of that woman to keep her medical information to herself. Sorry if you feel otherwise but there's a ton of entitlement going around in this thread and expecting transwomen to give you their most intimate details reeks of male entitlement.
I am a girl, it should really be that simple. Not telling you about being born with a penis is not rape, the penis is completely irrelevant because it doesn't exist anymore therefore the memory of that penis is not yours to be concerned about. You are afraid of an idea, an idea can't be persecuted and it can't be legally punished because it doesn't exist. The penis doesn't exist anymore, the flesh that it consisted of has been transformed. That flesh is the same flesh a cis woman's vagina is made out of (if you know how the penis is formed in the womb) so again, there is no difference outside of medical science's ability to repair nature's damage.
You heard that right guys, your penis is really an inverted vagina. If you don't like that you should blame nature for making you that way. <3
You don't get to decide what someone else views as relevant. This is something you and klondike seem to refuse to understand. You can think nothing could be less relevant but that doesn't make it irrelevant to someone else. It is immoral to conceal something which is, or is likely to be, very relevant to their decision to consent to sex for the purpose of getting them to consent to sex when they otherwise would not. Again, you do not get to decide what they find relevant or how valid their criteria are. Dismissing their criteria as dumb or saying "fuck that guy, I don't care" is pretty rapey. You misunderstand my argument. I'm implying privilege to information. You are not privileged to my medical history as it is personal and unless I tell you it is none of your business regardless of the situation. I am pointing out male entitlement and how it's affecting a woman's right to privacy. The information may be relevant to you, but you are not privileged to it. I am when you're asking me to consent to sex with you based upon flawed information. This is no different to having an STD in that regard. Not that I am saying that trans women are diseased, merely that society already has decided that things that can affect the partner should be disclosed before they consent to sex. And if you think that it can't have any impact then you are simply wrong. You might thing it shouldn't have, or that in a fair world it would not have, but you can't think that it will not have any impact. A person with aids needs to tell their partner about their STD because it could kill their partner. That is not the same as a medical issue that is not only not contagious, but in no way physically detrimental to their partner. I apologize but my personal medical information won't be brought into the open by popular opinion. I'm not a monster, and transsexuality is not contagious. The only people privvy to my medical history are my doctors. You've been implying the entire time that the man is trapped in a situation where they become the victim when that's not the case because it's the girl that's being forced to give away information that is her business and hers alone. Firstly and most importantly because we keep restating this and people keep not getting it. You do not get to decide what is detrimental to other people regarding their choice to consent to sex. They get to. Not you. Even if you think you know better. They get to decide. Not you. You can think "well it won't hurt them" as much as you like but if they don't want it, that's what counts. And that's before we look at the fact that a person could quite easily be left with all sorts of issues. A transphobe who views you as a man and himself as straight could be left traumatized, someone with transphobic/homophobic friends could be bullied and physically harassed for years as a result of your decision to deny them the right to informed consent. This involves them. You are not being forced to disclose anything right up until the point at which the information directly affects anyone else. Don't pretend this is about forcibly outing you, it's not, it's about protecting other people. If it was about forcibly outing you then we wouldn't need to involve consent. I don't mean to imply that their right to consent is based on my beliefs, but this false sense of obligation stems completely from negative opinion. Why is protecting people from negative opinion a double edged sword for me? Why do I have to babysit their transphobia while at the same time be berated by it? Because where their belief comes from doesn't matter when it comes down to whether or not they have a right to informed consent. You can think they're a complete fucking retard but you still don't get to knowingly deny them information which would impact their decision to consent to sex. I'm sorry, it sucks that the world isn't fair to you guys but that does not change this principle. Why's this principle more important, because it's popular? Why do I need to adhere to their transphobia, why must I always fucking make sure that they are more comfortable than I am? Why can't I just be a woman and have it be left at that? Just... god dammit. Why am I worth so little?
There are a number of things which make people overall less desirable as far as sex goes. Fortunately, this rarely prevents them from finding partners they are happy with, even if it makes things more difficult, and it never allows them the privilege of deceiving their partners.
I do emphasize with the struggles of being transsexual in a society which generally doesn't approve of it, and all of the issues with disclosing your transsexuality to a potential sexual partner.I wish you all the possible luck with achieving your professional and personal goals. I think you should be free to keep your transsexuality private in so far as it doesn't violate anybody's right to know. I don't think an employer or even a friend has any right to know, but I do think a sexual partner should be allowed to make an informed decision.
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On August 03 2013 03:36 ComaDose wrote:
I see how being morally obligated to put yourself at physical risk if you want to have sex can make you feel worth less than the person whose outdated views are making it necessary.
You put yourself at similar risk or greater risk if you withhold the information and they find out later. At the end of the day, it is unsafe as well.
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On August 03 2013 03:35 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:34 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 03:32 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 03:31 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 03:27 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 03:24 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 03:12 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 03:11 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 03:05 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 02:59 fugs wrote:
[quote]
A person with aids needs to tell their partner about their STD because it could kill their partner. That is not the same as a medical issue that is not only not contagious, but in no way physically detrimental to their partner. I apologize but my personal medical information won't be brought into the open by popular opinion. I'm not a monster, and transsexuality is not contagious.
The only people privvy to my medical history are my doctors. You've been implying the entire time that the man is trapped in a situation where they become the victim when that's not the case because it's the girl that's being forced to give away information that is her business and hers alone. Firstly and most importantly because we keep restating this and people keep not getting it. You do not get to decide what is detrimental to other people regarding their choice to consent to sex. They get to. Not you. Even if you think you know better. They get to decide. Not you. You can think "well it won't hurt them" as much as you like but if they don't want it, that's what counts. And that's before we look at the fact that a person could quite easily be left with all sorts of issues. A transphobe who views you as a man and himself as straight could be left traumatized, someone with transphobic/homophobic friends could be bullied and physically harassed for years as a result of your decision to deny them the right to informed consent. This involves them. You are not being forced to disclose anything right up until the point at which the information directly affects anyone else. Don't pretend this is about forcibly outing you, it's not, it's about protecting other people. If it was about forcibly outing you then we wouldn't need to involve consent. I don't mean to imply that their right to consent is based on my beliefs, but this false sense of obligation stems completely from negative opinion. Why is protecting people from negative opinion a double edged sword for me? Why do I have to babysit their transphobia while at the same time be berated by it? Because where their belief comes from doesn't matter when it comes down to whether or not they have a right to informed consent. You can think they're a complete fucking retard but you still don't get to knowingly deny them information which would impact their decision to consent to sex. I'm sorry, it sucks that the world isn't fair to you guys but that does not change this principle. Why's this principle more important, because it's popular? Why do I need to adhere to their transphobia, why must I always fucking make sure that they are more comfortable than I am? Why can't I just be a woman and have it be left at that? Just... god dammit. Why am I worth so little? You're worth the same as anyone else. The principle is important because it's free informed consent to sex and free informed consent to sex is a really important principle. It's more important than my safety? More important than my privacy? More important than my right to life liberty and happiness? I could be fired, killed, kicked out of my home. If that's really the case then no, no I'm not worth as much as anyone else. Two wrongs don't make a right. Same can be said for your side of the argument. We really are comparing rights here, just who's are more important? Consent is.
I guess that's my answer.
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On August 03 2013 03:37 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:36 ComaDose wrote:
I see how being morally obligated to put yourself at physical risk if you want to have sex can make you feel worth less than the person whose outdated views are making it necessary. You put yourself at similar risk or greater risk if you withhold the information and they find out later.
I see how being morally obligated to always puting yourself at physical risk if you want to have sex can make you feel worth less than the person whose outdated views are making it necessary.
alright ftfy
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On August 03 2013 03:31 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:27 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 03:24 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 03:12 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 03:11 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 03:05 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 02:59 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 02:49 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 02:45 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 02:38 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
You don't get to decide what someone else views as relevant. This is something you and klondike seem to refuse to understand. You can think nothing could be less relevant but that doesn't make it irrelevant to someone else.
It is immoral to conceal something which is, or is likely to be, very relevant to their decision to consent to sex for the purpose of getting them to consent to sex when they otherwise would not. Again, you do not get to decide what they find relevant or how valid their criteria are. Dismissing their criteria as dumb or saying "fuck that guy, I don't care" is pretty rapey. You misunderstand my argument. I'm implying privilege to information. You are not privileged to my medical history as it is personal and unless I tell you it is none of your business regardless of the situation. I am pointing out male entitlement and how it's affecting a woman's right to privacy. The information may be relevant to you, but you are not privileged to it. I am when you're asking me to consent to sex with you based upon flawed information. This is no different to having an STD in that regard. Not that I am saying that trans women are diseased, merely that society already has decided that things that can affect the partner should be disclosed before they consent to sex. And if you think that it can't have any impact then you are simply wrong. You might thing it shouldn't have, or that in a fair world it would not have, but you can't think that it will not have any impact. A person with aids needs to tell their partner about their STD because it could kill their partner. That is not the same as a medical issue that is not only not contagious, but in no way physically detrimental to their partner. I apologize but my personal medical information won't be brought into the open by popular opinion. I'm not a monster, and transsexuality is not contagious. The only people privvy to my medical history are my doctors. You've been implying the entire time that the man is trapped in a situation where they become the victim when that's not the case because it's the girl that's being forced to give away information that is her business and hers alone. Firstly and most importantly because we keep restating this and people keep not getting it. You do not get to decide what is detrimental to other people regarding their choice to consent to sex. They get to. Not you. Even if you think you know better. They get to decide. Not you. You can think "well it won't hurt them" as much as you like but if they don't want it, that's what counts. And that's before we look at the fact that a person could quite easily be left with all sorts of issues. A transphobe who views you as a man and himself as straight could be left traumatized, someone with transphobic/homophobic friends could be bullied and physically harassed for years as a result of your decision to deny them the right to informed consent. This involves them. You are not being forced to disclose anything right up until the point at which the information directly affects anyone else. Don't pretend this is about forcibly outing you, it's not, it's about protecting other people. If it was about forcibly outing you then we wouldn't need to involve consent. I don't mean to imply that their right to consent is based on my beliefs, but this false sense of obligation stems completely from negative opinion. Why is protecting people from negative opinion a double edged sword for me? Why do I have to babysit their transphobia while at the same time be berated by it? Because where their belief comes from doesn't matter when it comes down to whether or not they have a right to informed consent. You can think they're a complete fucking retard but you still don't get to knowingly deny them information which would impact their decision to consent to sex. I'm sorry, it sucks that the world isn't fair to you guys but that does not change this principle. Why's this principle more important, because it's popular? Why do I need to adhere to their transphobia, why must I always fucking make sure that they are more comfortable than I am? Why can't I just be a woman and have it be left at that? Just... god dammit. Why am I worth so little? You're worth the same as anyone else. The principle is important because it's free informed consent to sex and free informed consent to sex is a really important principle. It's more important than my safety? More important than my privacy? More important than my right to life liberty and happiness? I could be fired, killed, kicked out of my home. If that's really the case then no, no I'm not worth as much as anyone else.
Having sex with them is not something you are forced to do. Your right to privacy should not undermine their right to consent. By all means, you are not obligated to disclose such information if you're not going to get involved in something as intimate as sex.
And you are worth as much as other people.
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On August 03 2013 03:39 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:37 Plansix wrote:On August 03 2013 03:36 ComaDose wrote:
I see how being morally obligated to put yourself at physical risk if you want to have sex can make you feel worth less than the person whose outdated views are making it necessary. You put yourself at similar risk or greater risk if you withhold the information and they find out later. I see how being morally obligated to always puting yourself at physical risk if you want to have sex can make you feel worth less than the person whose outdated views are making it necessary. alright ftfy
There's nothing outdated about the view that one wants to have sex with a cisgender woman. Frankly, it's not your place to decide whether people's sexual preferences or fetishes are "outdated" unless they actually are harmful/immoral in themselves, and these obviously aren't, lol.
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Look, can we all at least agree that if you actually KNOW a person wouldnt want to sleep with you if they knew something about you, no matter what it is, then you should tell them before having sex with them, otherwise youre doing something immoral. Does everyone agree with this?
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On August 03 2013 03:47 Snusmumriken wrote:
Look, can we all at least agree that if you actually KNOW a person doesnt want to sleep with you if they knew something about you, no matter what it is, then you should tell them before having sex with them, otherwise youre doing something immoral. Does everyone agree with this?
I'm pretty much on the same page here.
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On August 03 2013 03:47 Snusmumriken wrote:
Look, can we all at least agree that if you actually KNOW a person doesnt want to sleep with you if they knew something about you, no matter what it is, then you should tell them before having sex with them, otherwise youre doing something immoral. Does everyone agree with this?
Yes, if you can confirm they do not care about sleeping with someone who is transgender without informing them you are transgender(ie, they were in a past relationship or simple expressed indifference), then there is no problem and no requirement to inform them.
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EPT
