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On August 03 2013 03:02 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 02:59 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 02:58 jinorazi wrote:
i also think plenty of heteros lie/deceive to have sex so, so it'll be hypocritical to deny you the same. Presumably you mean cis when you say hetero and then somehow that two wrongs make a right. i'm not too familiar with the terms, two wrongs dont make it right, maybe i'm being passive but i'm just a messenger, the kings and queens can battle however they want.
Ha, that language barrier. It means one incorrect action does not justify another incorrect action.
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On August 03 2013 02:45 Iyerbeth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 01:58 Darkwhite wrote:On August 02 2013 05:15 Iyerbeth wrote:
For the incest argument, you're conflating non disclosure of a one night stand betwen two strangers with someone seeking someone out specifically because of information about them specifically and then dating them. So, if I randomly happen upon her in a nightclub while travelling, she doesn't know we're cousins but I do know, then I'm not obliged to let her know? Whereas, if I was actively seeking her out instead, I would have had to disclose our kinship? Mercy answered this well in explaining the difference, but then your next example of the twins thing is again an example of someone having a priori knowledge about someone else (that her husband has a twin) and then using that knowledge, again in an instance of actively seeking out that individual.
But it isn't personal knowledge about her that I am not her husband. It's personal information about me - that I am a different individual than she mistakenly happens to think. In this case, she is confused about my identity rather than my transsexuality.
I am completely at loss now about what sort of moral principle dictates that confusions about identity and kinship and diseases must be rectified, whereas transsexuality gets a free ride.
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United States43752 Posts
On August 03 2013 02:59 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 02:49 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 02:45 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 02:38 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 01:58 fugs wrote:
A transwoman is the same as a ciswoman, I should not have to pass some freaky test to qualify as one kind of human being over another. Basing the 'difference' on surgery should be irrelevant because the surgery is none of your business. Your right to know the quality of a woman's vagina is trumped by the right of that woman to keep her medical information to herself. Sorry if you feel otherwise but there's a ton of entitlement going around in this thread and expecting transwomen to give you their most intimate details reeks of male entitlement.
I am a girl, it should really be that simple. Not telling you about being born with a penis is not rape, the penis is completely irrelevant because it doesn't exist anymore therefore the memory of that penis is not yours to be concerned about. You are afraid of an idea, an idea can't be persecuted and it can't be legally punished because it doesn't exist. The penis doesn't exist anymore, the flesh that it consisted of has been transformed. That flesh is the same flesh a cis woman's vagina is made out of (if you know how the penis is formed in the womb) so again, there is no difference outside of medical science's ability to repair nature's damage.
You heard that right guys, your penis is really an inverted vagina. If you don't like that you should blame nature for making you that way. <3
You don't get to decide what someone else views as relevant. This is something you and klondike seem to refuse to understand. You can think nothing could be less relevant but that doesn't make it irrelevant to someone else. It is immoral to conceal something which is, or is likely to be, very relevant to their decision to consent to sex for the purpose of getting them to consent to sex when they otherwise would not. Again, you do not get to decide what they find relevant or how valid their criteria are. Dismissing their criteria as dumb or saying "fuck that guy, I don't care" is pretty rapey. You misunderstand my argument. I'm implying privilege to information. You are not privileged to my medical history as it is personal and unless I tell you it is none of your business regardless of the situation. I am pointing out male entitlement and how it's affecting a woman's right to privacy. The information may be relevant to you, but you are not privileged to it. I am when you're asking me to consent to sex with you based upon flawed information. This is no different to having an STD in that regard. Not that I am saying that trans women are diseased, merely that society already has decided that things that can affect the partner should be disclosed before they consent to sex. And if you think that it can't have any impact then you are simply wrong. You might thing it shouldn't have, or that in a fair world it would not have, but you can't think that it will not have any impact. A person with aids needs to tell their partner about their STD because it could kill their partner. That is not the same as a medical issue that is not only not contagious, but in no way physically detrimental to their partner. I apologize but my personal medical information won't be brought into the open by popular opinion. I'm not a monster, and transsexuality is not contagious. The only people privvy to my medical history are my doctors. You've been implying the entire time that the man is trapped in a situation where they become the victim when that's not the case because it's the girl that's being forced to give away information that is her business and hers alone.
Firstly and most importantly because we keep restating this and people keep not getting it. You do not get to decide what is detrimental to other people regarding their choice to consent to sex. They get to. Not you. Even if you think you know better. They get to decide. Not you. You can think "well it won't hurt them" as much as you like but if they don't want it, that's what counts.
And that's before we look at the fact that a person could quite easily be left with all sorts of issues. A transphobe who views you as a man and himself as straight could be left traumatized, someone with transphobic/homophobic friends could be bullied and physically harassed for years as a result of your decision to deny them the right to informed consent. This involves them.
You are not being forced to disclose anything right up until the point at which the information directly affects anyone else. Don't pretend this is about forcibly outing you, it's not, it's about protecting other people. If it was about forcibly outing you then we wouldn't need to involve consent.
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On August 03 2013 02:45 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 02:38 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 01:58 fugs wrote:
A transwoman is the same as a ciswoman, I should not have to pass some freaky test to qualify as one kind of human being over another. Basing the 'difference' on surgery should be irrelevant because the surgery is none of your business. Your right to know the quality of a woman's vagina is trumped by the right of that woman to keep her medical information to herself. Sorry if you feel otherwise but there's a ton of entitlement going around in this thread and expecting transwomen to give you their most intimate details reeks of male entitlement.
I am a girl, it should really be that simple. Not telling you about being born with a penis is not rape, the penis is completely irrelevant because it doesn't exist anymore therefore the memory of that penis is not yours to be concerned about. You are afraid of an idea, an idea can't be persecuted and it can't be legally punished because it doesn't exist. The penis doesn't exist anymore, the flesh that it consisted of has been transformed. That flesh is the same flesh a cis woman's vagina is made out of (if you know how the penis is formed in the womb) so again, there is no difference outside of medical science's ability to repair nature's damage.
You heard that right guys, your penis is really an inverted vagina. If you don't like that you should blame nature for making you that way. <3
You don't get to decide what someone else views as relevant. This is something you and klondike seem to refuse to understand. You can think nothing could be less relevant but that doesn't make it irrelevant to someone else. It is immoral to conceal something which is, or is likely to be, very relevant to their decision to consent to sex for the purpose of getting them to consent to sex when they otherwise would not. Again, you do not get to decide what they find relevant or how valid their criteria are. Dismissing their criteria as dumb or saying "fuck that guy, I don't care" is pretty rapey. You misunderstand my argument. I'm implying privilege to information. You are not privileged to my medical history as it is personal and unless I tell you it is none of your business regardless of the situation. I am pointing out male entitlement and how it's affecting a woman's right to privacy. The information may be relevant to you, but you are not privileged to it.
The wife is not privileged to the information of the twin's identity either...
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On August 03 2013 03:01 RockIronrod wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 02:52 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 02:47 RockIronrod wrote:On August 03 2013 02:35 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 02:25 maybenexttime wrote:On August 03 2013 02:19 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 02:16 Darkwhite wrote:On August 03 2013 02:09 Mercy13 wrote:On August 03 2013 01:58 Darkwhite wrote:On August 02 2013 05:15 Iyerbeth wrote:
For the incest argument, you're conflating non disclosure of a one night stand betwen two strangers with someone seeking someone out specifically because of information about them specifically and then dating them. So, if I randomly happen upon her in a nightclub while travelling, she doesn't know we're cousins but I do know, then I'm not obliged to let her know? Whereas, if I was actively seeking her out instead, I would have had to disclose our kinship? I think the relevant difference between the two scenarios is that in one you know (1) personal information about her that (2) she doesn't know and (3) if she had known it would be likely to effect her decision to sleep with you. I think you have a moral obligation to disclose the other person's personal information (but not your own) when that information might be relevant to that person's decision to have sex with you. My identical twin brother has a wife, but she doesn't know I exist. Late at night, I come into their bedroom, she greets me as if though I were her husband, I make no effort to clear this up and we have sex. Seeing as the misunderstanding here is not personal information about her, I have no obligation to let her know I'm not actually her husband. Is that how it works? You are mentally a different person so no that's not how it works and yes it is dishonest and yes it is immoral. Twins =/= same person as you're both still morally responsible for your own actions. Cis =/= trans for most people. Claiming otherwise is just being wilfully ignorant. It shouldn't be about popular opinion, trans people aren't exactly popular just like other minorities aren't exactly popular. The minorities' rights shouldn't hinge on popular opinion. My medical history is my business understand? You're afraid of an idea, a penis that doesn't exist anymore. A penis that was transformed back into a vagina from the same material that all vaginas are made out of. Because it doesn't exist anymore it's not any of your business as it doesn't affect you. You're trying to claim that your entitlement to information trumps my right to privacy and that's morally reprehensible. This isn't minority vs majority, it's a universal thing. You don't withhold information just so you can have sex with someone. If you don't want to tell someone, then don't have sex with them. Your right to get your rocks off doesn't trump their right to make an informed decision with who they have sex with. Your medical history in this situation IS their business and DOES affect them, because it affects their decision to have sex with you, regardless of whether you think it's pertinent enough. Again, if you don't want to tell them, don't have sex with them. Where does it stop then? Does a cancer patient have to tell their one night stand about the tumor growing in their liver? Where is the line drawn where one person's medical history is no longer relevant to the other? Why is my transition so important to you that I must disclose an embarrassing and very private portion of my life to a complete stranger? Why does negative popular opinion of transsexuals overturn right to privacy? It stops when you know it isn't pertinent to their decision to consent to sex. It's pretty simple, and isn't something limited to trans people. And you don't HAVE to tell anyone, just like you don't HAVE to have sex with them. All your arguments seem to be based around this idea that sex is something that's completely unavoidable and that the world must bend to your right to fuck whoever you please regardless of their beliefs.
And you're implying that my right to privacy is less important than yours. The world isn't bending to my 'right to fuck whoever I please', it's forcing me to give way to demands that other people don't have to and that isn't fair. I'm made to be that special exemption in this argument and that's messed up.
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United States43752 Posts
On August 03 2013 03:03 ComaDose wrote:
I hate that this argument revolves around protecting the rights of an assumed significant population with an old, miss-founded, hereditary, socially instilled belief at the expense of a group of people that are actively being oppressed.
but them' the breaks. who thought morality was easy?
The majority are not asking the trans people wear stars of David so they can be identified and subjected to abuse. They are asking that they be informed only when it is directly relevant to their decision regarding consent to sex. That's not in the least bit unreasonable.
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On August 03 2013 03:03 ComaDose wrote:
I hate that this argument revolves around protecting the rights of an assumed significant population with an old, miss-founded, hereditary, socially instilled belief at the expense of a group of people that are actively being oppressed.
but them' the breaks. who thought morality was easy?
And we would all agree if the subject was not also sleeping with someone and the concept of consent of the other party. Its not a simple issue, since no one wants to be a jerk, but everyone also wants to decide who they sleep with.
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On August 03 2013 03:07 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:03 ComaDose wrote:
I hate that this argument revolves around protecting the rights of an assumed significant population with an old, miss-founded, hereditary, socially instilled belief at the expense of a group of people that are actively being oppressed.
but them' the breaks. who thought morality was easy? The majority are not asking the trans people wear stars of David so they can be identified and subjected to abuse. They are asking that they be informed only when it is directly relevant to their decision regarding consent to sex. That's not in the least bit unreasonable.
i didn't say unreasonable. i said there exist people whom prefer not to disclose and that we are protecting the rights of people with an old, miss-founded, hereditary, socially instilled belief at that persons expense.
i can't mess with consenting rights tho so its just really sad.
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On August 03 2013 03:05 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 02:59 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 02:49 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 02:45 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 02:38 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 01:58 fugs wrote:
A transwoman is the same as a ciswoman, I should not have to pass some freaky test to qualify as one kind of human being over another. Basing the 'difference' on surgery should be irrelevant because the surgery is none of your business. Your right to know the quality of a woman's vagina is trumped by the right of that woman to keep her medical information to herself. Sorry if you feel otherwise but there's a ton of entitlement going around in this thread and expecting transwomen to give you their most intimate details reeks of male entitlement.
I am a girl, it should really be that simple. Not telling you about being born with a penis is not rape, the penis is completely irrelevant because it doesn't exist anymore therefore the memory of that penis is not yours to be concerned about. You are afraid of an idea, an idea can't be persecuted and it can't be legally punished because it doesn't exist. The penis doesn't exist anymore, the flesh that it consisted of has been transformed. That flesh is the same flesh a cis woman's vagina is made out of (if you know how the penis is formed in the womb) so again, there is no difference outside of medical science's ability to repair nature's damage.
You heard that right guys, your penis is really an inverted vagina. If you don't like that you should blame nature for making you that way. <3
You don't get to decide what someone else views as relevant. This is something you and klondike seem to refuse to understand. You can think nothing could be less relevant but that doesn't make it irrelevant to someone else. It is immoral to conceal something which is, or is likely to be, very relevant to their decision to consent to sex for the purpose of getting them to consent to sex when they otherwise would not. Again, you do not get to decide what they find relevant or how valid their criteria are. Dismissing their criteria as dumb or saying "fuck that guy, I don't care" is pretty rapey. You misunderstand my argument. I'm implying privilege to information. You are not privileged to my medical history as it is personal and unless I tell you it is none of your business regardless of the situation. I am pointing out male entitlement and how it's affecting a woman's right to privacy. The information may be relevant to you, but you are not privileged to it. I am when you're asking me to consent to sex with you based upon flawed information. This is no different to having an STD in that regard. Not that I am saying that trans women are diseased, merely that society already has decided that things that can affect the partner should be disclosed before they consent to sex. And if you think that it can't have any impact then you are simply wrong. You might thing it shouldn't have, or that in a fair world it would not have, but you can't think that it will not have any impact. A person with aids needs to tell their partner about their STD because it could kill their partner. That is not the same as a medical issue that is not only not contagious, but in no way physically detrimental to their partner. I apologize but my personal medical information won't be brought into the open by popular opinion. I'm not a monster, and transsexuality is not contagious. The only people privvy to my medical history are my doctors. You've been implying the entire time that the man is trapped in a situation where they become the victim when that's not the case because it's the girl that's being forced to give away information that is her business and hers alone. Firstly and most importantly because we keep restating this and people keep not getting it. You do not get to decide what is detrimental to other people regarding their choice to consent to sex. They get to. Not you. Even if you think you know better. They get to decide. Not you. You can think "well it won't hurt them" as much as you like but if they don't want it, that's what counts. And that's before we look at the fact that a person could quite easily be left with all sorts of issues. A transphobe who views you as a man and himself as straight could be left traumatized, someone with transphobic/homophobic friends could be bullied and physically harassed for years as a result of your decision to deny them the right to informed consent. This involves them. You are not being forced to disclose anything right up until the point at which the information directly affects anyone else. Don't pretend this is about forcibly outing you, it's not, it's about protecting other people. If it was about forcibly outing you then we wouldn't need to involve consent.
I don't mean to imply that their right to consent is based on my beliefs, but this false sense of obligation stems completely from negative opinion. Why is protecting people from negative opinion a double edged sword for me? Why do I have to babysit their transphobia while at the same time be berated by it?
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United States43752 Posts
On August 03 2013 03:03 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 02:57 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 02:52 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 02:47 RockIronrod wrote:On August 03 2013 02:35 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 02:25 maybenexttime wrote:On August 03 2013 02:19 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 02:16 Darkwhite wrote:On August 03 2013 02:09 Mercy13 wrote:On August 03 2013 01:58 Darkwhite wrote:
[quote]
So, if I randomly happen upon her in a nightclub while travelling, she doesn't know we're cousins but I do know, then I'm not obliged to let her know? Whereas, if I was actively seeking her out instead, I would have had to disclose our kinship? I think the relevant difference between the two scenarios is that in one you know (1) personal information about her that (2) she doesn't know and (3) if she had known it would be likely to effect her decision to sleep with you. I think you have a moral obligation to disclose the other person's personal information (but not your own) when that information might be relevant to that person's decision to have sex with you. My identical twin brother has a wife, but she doesn't know I exist. Late at night, I come into their bedroom, she greets me as if though I were her husband, I make no effort to clear this up and we have sex. Seeing as the misunderstanding here is not personal information about her, I have no obligation to let her know I'm not actually her husband. Is that how it works? You are mentally a different person so no that's not how it works and yes it is dishonest and yes it is immoral. Twins =/= same person as you're both still morally responsible for your own actions. Cis =/= trans for most people. Claiming otherwise is just being wilfully ignorant. It shouldn't be about popular opinion, trans people aren't exactly popular just like other minorities aren't exactly popular. The minorities' rights shouldn't hinge on popular opinion. My medical history is my business understand? You're afraid of an idea, a penis that doesn't exist anymore. A penis that was transformed back into a vagina from the same material that all vaginas are made out of. Because it doesn't exist anymore it's not any of your business as it doesn't affect you. You're trying to claim that your entitlement to information trumps my right to privacy and that's morally reprehensible. This isn't minority vs majority, it's a universal thing. You don't withhold information just so you can have sex with someone. If you don't want to tell someone, then don't have sex with them. Your right to get your rocks off doesn't trump their right to make an informed decision with who they have sex with. Your medical history in this situation IS their business and DOES affect them, because it affects their decision to have sex with you, regardless of whether you think it's pertinent enough. Again, if you don't want to tell them, don't have sex with them. Where does it stop then? Does a cancer patient have to tell their one night stand about the tumor growing in their liver? Where is the line drawn where one person's medical history is no longer relevant to the other? Why is my transition so important to you that I must disclose an embarrassing and very private portion of my life to a complete stranger? Why does negative popular opinion of transsexuals overturn right to privacy? You're not getting it. A cancer patient would absolutely have to tell people about their tumour if they believed that they were gaining consent based upon the flawed assumption that they had no tumours and that consent would not otherwise be granted. Cancer patients don't have to disclose because that belief is unlikely because the desire to avoid tumours isn't a big thing. The desire to avoid transgender people is a big thing and therefore the belief that consent could hinge upon it is there and therefore the obligation to disclose is there. You don't have to disclose. You choose to when you choose to involve them through asking them to consent to something. You owe them the ability to make an informed decision before they consent. This isn't about trans people, majority rule or transphobia, this is about protecting the principle of consent. It'd apply to cancer patients just the same. If you don't want to involve other people in your business then don't try and maintain that principle while fucking other people. Consent based on what-ifs. What-ifs are not admissible to an argument of consent because they're too broad of an argument to hold water. Right?
This is a moral principle. I'm not suggesting that the law should be changed to make all sex based on probably flawed information regarding possible dealbreakers rape. I'm suggesting that someone who believes that they have relevant information that would stop the other person consenting and chooses not to disclose that because they think they know better or simply don't care whether or not the other person would consent if they knew is being really, really rapey. Constructing that principle into a law would be impossible but it is a principle that agrees with our understanding of consent.
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On August 03 2013 03:05 Darkwhite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 02:45 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 03 2013 01:58 Darkwhite wrote:On August 02 2013 05:15 Iyerbeth wrote:
For the incest argument, you're conflating non disclosure of a one night stand betwen two strangers with someone seeking someone out specifically because of information about them specifically and then dating them. So, if I randomly happen upon her in a nightclub while travelling, she doesn't know we're cousins but I do know, then I'm not obliged to let her know? Whereas, if I was actively seeking her out instead, I would have had to disclose our kinship? Mercy answered this well in explaining the difference, but then your next example of the twins thing is again an example of someone having a priori knowledge about someone else (that her husband has a twin) and then using that knowledge, again in an instance of actively seeking out that individual. But it isn't personal knowledge about her that I am not her husband. It's personal information about me - that I am a different individual than she mistakenly happens to think. In this case, she is confused about my identity rather than my transsexuality. I am completely at loss now about what sort of moral principle dictates that confusions about identity and kinship and diseases must be rectified, whereas transsexuality gets a free ride.
Just to be clear you think these two scenarios post the same moral issues?
1: Someone has a married twin brother, and is aware that person's wife doesn't know. He uses that knowledge to seek out a sexual encounter with her without her knowledge.
2: Two people with no knowledge of each other meet in a club. They have a one night stand without disclosing anything to each other, but one could have disclosed she was trans.
I was originally going to have point two as he too, but for some reason people tend to care less about trans men. I fear it's because a lot of men have 'trap' mentality.
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On August 03 2013 02:52 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 02:47 RockIronrod wrote:On August 03 2013 02:35 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 02:25 maybenexttime wrote:On August 03 2013 02:19 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 02:16 Darkwhite wrote:On August 03 2013 02:09 Mercy13 wrote:On August 03 2013 01:58 Darkwhite wrote:On August 02 2013 05:15 Iyerbeth wrote:
For the incest argument, you're conflating non disclosure of a one night stand betwen two strangers with someone seeking someone out specifically because of information about them specifically and then dating them. So, if I randomly happen upon her in a nightclub while travelling, she doesn't know we're cousins but I do know, then I'm not obliged to let her know? Whereas, if I was actively seeking her out instead, I would have had to disclose our kinship? I think the relevant difference between the two scenarios is that in one you know (1) personal information about her that (2) she doesn't know and (3) if she had known it would be likely to effect her decision to sleep with you. I think you have a moral obligation to disclose the other person's personal information (but not your own) when that information might be relevant to that person's decision to have sex with you. My identical twin brother has a wife, but she doesn't know I exist. Late at night, I come into their bedroom, she greets me as if though I were her husband, I make no effort to clear this up and we have sex. Seeing as the misunderstanding here is not personal information about her, I have no obligation to let her know I'm not actually her husband. Is that how it works? You are mentally a different person so no that's not how it works and yes it is dishonest and yes it is immoral. Twins =/= same person as you're both still morally responsible for your own actions. Cis =/= trans for most people. Claiming otherwise is just being wilfully ignorant. It shouldn't be about popular opinion, trans people aren't exactly popular just like other minorities aren't exactly popular. The minorities' rights shouldn't hinge on popular opinion. My medical history is my business understand? You're afraid of an idea, a penis that doesn't exist anymore. A penis that was transformed back into a vagina from the same material that all vaginas are made out of. Because it doesn't exist anymore it's not any of your business as it doesn't affect you. You're trying to claim that your entitlement to information trumps my right to privacy and that's morally reprehensible. This isn't minority vs majority, it's a universal thing. You don't withhold information just so you can have sex with someone. If you don't want to tell someone, then don't have sex with them. Your right to get your rocks off doesn't trump their right to make an informed decision with who they have sex with. Your medical history in this situation IS their business and DOES affect them, because it affects their decision to have sex with you, regardless of whether you think it's pertinent enough. Again, if you don't want to tell them, don't have sex with them. Where does it stop then? Does a cancer patient have to tell their one night stand about the tumor growing in their liver? Where is the line drawn where one person's medical history is no longer relevant to the other? Why is my transition so important to you that I must disclose an embarrassing and very private portion of my life to a complete stranger? Why does negative popular opinion of transsexuals overturn right to privacy?
We are not trying to establish a universal rule when it's advisable to disclose particular information. We're saying that the information about you being a transsexual is not ambiguous in that regard. It should be clear that this particular piece of information IS important, regardless of whether e.g. having dyed hair is important.
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On August 03 2013 03:11 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:05 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 02:59 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 02:49 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 02:45 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 02:38 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 01:58 fugs wrote:
A transwoman is the same as a ciswoman, I should not have to pass some freaky test to qualify as one kind of human being over another. Basing the 'difference' on surgery should be irrelevant because the surgery is none of your business. Your right to know the quality of a woman's vagina is trumped by the right of that woman to keep her medical information to herself. Sorry if you feel otherwise but there's a ton of entitlement going around in this thread and expecting transwomen to give you their most intimate details reeks of male entitlement.
I am a girl, it should really be that simple. Not telling you about being born with a penis is not rape, the penis is completely irrelevant because it doesn't exist anymore therefore the memory of that penis is not yours to be concerned about. You are afraid of an idea, an idea can't be persecuted and it can't be legally punished because it doesn't exist. The penis doesn't exist anymore, the flesh that it consisted of has been transformed. That flesh is the same flesh a cis woman's vagina is made out of (if you know how the penis is formed in the womb) so again, there is no difference outside of medical science's ability to repair nature's damage.
You heard that right guys, your penis is really an inverted vagina. If you don't like that you should blame nature for making you that way. <3
You don't get to decide what someone else views as relevant. This is something you and klondike seem to refuse to understand. You can think nothing could be less relevant but that doesn't make it irrelevant to someone else. It is immoral to conceal something which is, or is likely to be, very relevant to their decision to consent to sex for the purpose of getting them to consent to sex when they otherwise would not. Again, you do not get to decide what they find relevant or how valid their criteria are. Dismissing their criteria as dumb or saying "fuck that guy, I don't care" is pretty rapey. You misunderstand my argument. I'm implying privilege to information. You are not privileged to my medical history as it is personal and unless I tell you it is none of your business regardless of the situation. I am pointing out male entitlement and how it's affecting a woman's right to privacy. The information may be relevant to you, but you are not privileged to it. I am when you're asking me to consent to sex with you based upon flawed information. This is no different to having an STD in that regard. Not that I am saying that trans women are diseased, merely that society already has decided that things that can affect the partner should be disclosed before they consent to sex. And if you think that it can't have any impact then you are simply wrong. You might thing it shouldn't have, or that in a fair world it would not have, but you can't think that it will not have any impact. A person with aids needs to tell their partner about their STD because it could kill their partner. That is not the same as a medical issue that is not only not contagious, but in no way physically detrimental to their partner. I apologize but my personal medical information won't be brought into the open by popular opinion. I'm not a monster, and transsexuality is not contagious. The only people privvy to my medical history are my doctors. You've been implying the entire time that the man is trapped in a situation where they become the victim when that's not the case because it's the girl that's being forced to give away information that is her business and hers alone. Firstly and most importantly because we keep restating this and people keep not getting it. You do not get to decide what is detrimental to other people regarding their choice to consent to sex. They get to. Not you. Even if you think you know better. They get to decide. Not you. You can think "well it won't hurt them" as much as you like but if they don't want it, that's what counts. And that's before we look at the fact that a person could quite easily be left with all sorts of issues. A transphobe who views you as a man and himself as straight could be left traumatized, someone with transphobic/homophobic friends could be bullied and physically harassed for years as a result of your decision to deny them the right to informed consent. This involves them. You are not being forced to disclose anything right up until the point at which the information directly affects anyone else. Don't pretend this is about forcibly outing you, it's not, it's about protecting other people. If it was about forcibly outing you then we wouldn't need to involve consent. I don't mean to imply that their right to consent is based on my beliefs, but this false sense of obligation stems completely from negative opinion. Why is protecting people from negative opinion a double edged sword for me? Why do I have to babysit their transphobia while at the same time be berated by it?
Why do you get to trample their rights to consent in an effort to protect yourself? Isn't that equally bad?
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United States43752 Posts
On August 03 2013 03:11 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:05 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 02:59 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 02:49 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 02:45 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 02:38 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 01:58 fugs wrote:
A transwoman is the same as a ciswoman, I should not have to pass some freaky test to qualify as one kind of human being over another. Basing the 'difference' on surgery should be irrelevant because the surgery is none of your business. Your right to know the quality of a woman's vagina is trumped by the right of that woman to keep her medical information to herself. Sorry if you feel otherwise but there's a ton of entitlement going around in this thread and expecting transwomen to give you their most intimate details reeks of male entitlement.
I am a girl, it should really be that simple. Not telling you about being born with a penis is not rape, the penis is completely irrelevant because it doesn't exist anymore therefore the memory of that penis is not yours to be concerned about. You are afraid of an idea, an idea can't be persecuted and it can't be legally punished because it doesn't exist. The penis doesn't exist anymore, the flesh that it consisted of has been transformed. That flesh is the same flesh a cis woman's vagina is made out of (if you know how the penis is formed in the womb) so again, there is no difference outside of medical science's ability to repair nature's damage.
You heard that right guys, your penis is really an inverted vagina. If you don't like that you should blame nature for making you that way. <3
You don't get to decide what someone else views as relevant. This is something you and klondike seem to refuse to understand. You can think nothing could be less relevant but that doesn't make it irrelevant to someone else. It is immoral to conceal something which is, or is likely to be, very relevant to their decision to consent to sex for the purpose of getting them to consent to sex when they otherwise would not. Again, you do not get to decide what they find relevant or how valid their criteria are. Dismissing their criteria as dumb or saying "fuck that guy, I don't care" is pretty rapey. You misunderstand my argument. I'm implying privilege to information. You are not privileged to my medical history as it is personal and unless I tell you it is none of your business regardless of the situation. I am pointing out male entitlement and how it's affecting a woman's right to privacy. The information may be relevant to you, but you are not privileged to it. I am when you're asking me to consent to sex with you based upon flawed information. This is no different to having an STD in that regard. Not that I am saying that trans women are diseased, merely that society already has decided that things that can affect the partner should be disclosed before they consent to sex. And if you think that it can't have any impact then you are simply wrong. You might thing it shouldn't have, or that in a fair world it would not have, but you can't think that it will not have any impact. A person with aids needs to tell their partner about their STD because it could kill their partner. That is not the same as a medical issue that is not only not contagious, but in no way physically detrimental to their partner. I apologize but my personal medical information won't be brought into the open by popular opinion. I'm not a monster, and transsexuality is not contagious. The only people privvy to my medical history are my doctors. You've been implying the entire time that the man is trapped in a situation where they become the victim when that's not the case because it's the girl that's being forced to give away information that is her business and hers alone. Firstly and most importantly because we keep restating this and people keep not getting it. You do not get to decide what is detrimental to other people regarding their choice to consent to sex. They get to. Not you. Even if you think you know better. They get to decide. Not you. You can think "well it won't hurt them" as much as you like but if they don't want it, that's what counts. And that's before we look at the fact that a person could quite easily be left with all sorts of issues. A transphobe who views you as a man and himself as straight could be left traumatized, someone with transphobic/homophobic friends could be bullied and physically harassed for years as a result of your decision to deny them the right to informed consent. This involves them. You are not being forced to disclose anything right up until the point at which the information directly affects anyone else. Don't pretend this is about forcibly outing you, it's not, it's about protecting other people. If it was about forcibly outing you then we wouldn't need to involve consent. I don't mean to imply that their right to consent is based on my beliefs, but this false sense of obligation stems completely from negative opinion. Why is protecting people from negative opinion a double edged sword for me? Why do I have to babysit their transphobia while at the same time be berated by it?
Because where their belief comes from doesn't matter when it comes down to whether or not they have a right to informed consent. You can think they're a complete fucking retard but you still don't get to knowingly deny them information which would impact their decision to consent to sex. I'm sorry, it sucks that the world isn't fair to you guys but that does not change this principle.
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Another question, if a trans person has a moral duty to disclose that information, does society have a moral duty to protect them from the social consequences via legislation about not sharing voluntarily disclosed confidential information?
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On August 03 2013 03:06 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:01 RockIronrod wrote:On August 03 2013 02:52 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 02:47 RockIronrod wrote:On August 03 2013 02:35 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 02:25 maybenexttime wrote:On August 03 2013 02:19 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 02:16 Darkwhite wrote:On August 03 2013 02:09 Mercy13 wrote:On August 03 2013 01:58 Darkwhite wrote:
[quote]
So, if I randomly happen upon her in a nightclub while travelling, she doesn't know we're cousins but I do know, then I'm not obliged to let her know? Whereas, if I was actively seeking her out instead, I would have had to disclose our kinship? I think the relevant difference between the two scenarios is that in one you know (1) personal information about her that (2) she doesn't know and (3) if she had known it would be likely to effect her decision to sleep with you. I think you have a moral obligation to disclose the other person's personal information (but not your own) when that information might be relevant to that person's decision to have sex with you. My identical twin brother has a wife, but she doesn't know I exist. Late at night, I come into their bedroom, she greets me as if though I were her husband, I make no effort to clear this up and we have sex. Seeing as the misunderstanding here is not personal information about her, I have no obligation to let her know I'm not actually her husband. Is that how it works? You are mentally a different person so no that's not how it works and yes it is dishonest and yes it is immoral. Twins =/= same person as you're both still morally responsible for your own actions. Cis =/= trans for most people. Claiming otherwise is just being wilfully ignorant. It shouldn't be about popular opinion, trans people aren't exactly popular just like other minorities aren't exactly popular. The minorities' rights shouldn't hinge on popular opinion. My medical history is my business understand? You're afraid of an idea, a penis that doesn't exist anymore. A penis that was transformed back into a vagina from the same material that all vaginas are made out of. Because it doesn't exist anymore it's not any of your business as it doesn't affect you. You're trying to claim that your entitlement to information trumps my right to privacy and that's morally reprehensible. This isn't minority vs majority, it's a universal thing. You don't withhold information just so you can have sex with someone. If you don't want to tell someone, then don't have sex with them. Your right to get your rocks off doesn't trump their right to make an informed decision with who they have sex with. Your medical history in this situation IS their business and DOES affect them, because it affects their decision to have sex with you, regardless of whether you think it's pertinent enough. Again, if you don't want to tell them, don't have sex with them. Where does it stop then? Does a cancer patient have to tell their one night stand about the tumor growing in their liver? Where is the line drawn where one person's medical history is no longer relevant to the other? Why is my transition so important to you that I must disclose an embarrassing and very private portion of my life to a complete stranger? Why does negative popular opinion of transsexuals overturn right to privacy? It stops when you know it isn't pertinent to their decision to consent to sex. It's pretty simple, and isn't something limited to trans people. And you don't HAVE to tell anyone, just like you don't HAVE to have sex with them. All your arguments seem to be based around this idea that sex is something that's completely unavoidable and that the world must bend to your right to fuck whoever you please regardless of their beliefs. And you're implying that my right to privacy is less important than yours. The world isn't bending to my 'right to fuck whoever I please', it's forcing me to give way to demands that other people don't have to and that isn't fair. I'm made to be that special exemption in this argument and that's messed up.
No, your right to privacy is just the same as mine, if there's something about me that isnt immediately apparent that might change their decision to have sex with me then I tell them. I've informed people in the past that I'm an ex of their friend, currently high on acid, not actually a friend of the party's host, in the middle of bad food poisoning and an atheist, all because those would've affected their decision and I knew it. If I didn't want to reveal that information, I could've walked away from any relations with them, because it wasn't right to not tell them and still go through with it. My right to privacy isn't greater than or less than their right to choose, I always have the option of leaving.
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United States43752 Posts
On August 03 2013 03:11 Iyerbeth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:05 Darkwhite wrote:On August 03 2013 02:45 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 03 2013 01:58 Darkwhite wrote:On August 02 2013 05:15 Iyerbeth wrote:
For the incest argument, you're conflating non disclosure of a one night stand betwen two strangers with someone seeking someone out specifically because of information about them specifically and then dating them. So, if I randomly happen upon her in a nightclub while travelling, she doesn't know we're cousins but I do know, then I'm not obliged to let her know? Whereas, if I was actively seeking her out instead, I would have had to disclose our kinship? Mercy answered this well in explaining the difference, but then your next example of the twins thing is again an example of someone having a priori knowledge about someone else (that her husband has a twin) and then using that knowledge, again in an instance of actively seeking out that individual. But it isn't personal knowledge about her that I am not her husband. It's personal information about me - that I am a different individual than she mistakenly happens to think. In this case, she is confused about my identity rather than my transsexuality. I am completely at loss now about what sort of moral principle dictates that confusions about identity and kinship and diseases must be rectified, whereas transsexuality gets a free ride. Just to be clear you think these two scenarios post the same moral issues? 1: Someone has a married twin brother, and is aware that person's wife doesn't know. He uses that knowledge to seek out a sexual encounter with her without her knowledge. 2: Two people with no knowledge of each other meet in a club. They have a one night stand without disclosing anything to each other, but one could have disclosed she was trans. I was originally going to have point two as he too, but for some reason people tend to care less about trans men. I fear it's because a lot of men have 'trap' mentality.
The scenarios are not exactly the same because in the first one the man knows that the consent is definitely being granted on a false assumption whereas in the second one the trans woman only has reason to suspect (depending upon how tolerant the area is) that consent is being granted on a false assumption. The obligation to disclose would be absolute in the first case and would vary depending on context in the second case.
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United States43752 Posts
On August 03 2013 03:14 Iyerbeth wrote:
Another question, if a trans person has a moral duty to disclose that information, does society have a moral duty to protect them from the social consequences via legislation about not sharing voluntarily disclosed confidential information?
Discrimination against trans people is obviously wrong. Society has an obligation to protect every member, trans or not, from abuse, harassment, violence and so forth.
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On August 03 2013 02:59 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 02:49 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 02:45 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 02:38 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 01:58 fugs wrote:
A transwoman is the same as a ciswoman, I should not have to pass some freaky test to qualify as one kind of human being over another. Basing the 'difference' on surgery should be irrelevant because the surgery is none of your business. Your right to know the quality of a woman's vagina is trumped by the right of that woman to keep her medical information to herself. Sorry if you feel otherwise but there's a ton of entitlement going around in this thread and expecting transwomen to give you their most intimate details reeks of male entitlement.
I am a girl, it should really be that simple. Not telling you about being born with a penis is not rape, the penis is completely irrelevant because it doesn't exist anymore therefore the memory of that penis is not yours to be concerned about. You are afraid of an idea, an idea can't be persecuted and it can't be legally punished because it doesn't exist. The penis doesn't exist anymore, the flesh that it consisted of has been transformed. That flesh is the same flesh a cis woman's vagina is made out of (if you know how the penis is formed in the womb) so again, there is no difference outside of medical science's ability to repair nature's damage.
You heard that right guys, your penis is really an inverted vagina. If you don't like that you should blame nature for making you that way. <3
You don't get to decide what someone else views as relevant. This is something you and klondike seem to refuse to understand. You can think nothing could be less relevant but that doesn't make it irrelevant to someone else. It is immoral to conceal something which is, or is likely to be, very relevant to their decision to consent to sex for the purpose of getting them to consent to sex when they otherwise would not. Again, you do not get to decide what they find relevant or how valid their criteria are. Dismissing their criteria as dumb or saying "fuck that guy, I don't care" is pretty rapey. You misunderstand my argument. I'm implying privilege to information. You are not privileged to my medical history as it is personal and unless I tell you it is none of your business regardless of the situation. I am pointing out male entitlement and how it's affecting a woman's right to privacy. The information may be relevant to you, but you are not privileged to it. I am when you're asking me to consent to sex with you based upon flawed information. This is no different to having an STD in that regard. Not that I am saying that trans women are diseased, merely that society already has decided that things that can affect the partner should be disclosed before they consent to sex. And if you think that it can't have any impact then you are simply wrong. You might thing it shouldn't have, or that in a fair world it would not have, but you can't think that it will not have any impact. A person with aids needs to tell their partner about their STD because it could kill their partner. That is not the same as a medical issue that is not only not contagious, but in no way physically detrimental to their partner. I apologize but my personal medical information won't be brought into the open by popular opinion. I'm not a monster, and transsexuality is not contagious. The only people privvy to my medical history are my doctors. You've been implying the entire time that the man is trapped in a situation where they become the victim when that's not the case because it's the girl that's being forced to give away information that is her business and hers alone.
It's not inconsequential. It may result in serious trauma, bullying or even suicide. Is that not reason enough?
On August 03 2013 03:03 ComaDose wrote:
I hate that this argument revolves around protecting the rights of an assumed significant population with an old, miss-founded, hereditary, socially instilled belief at the expense of a group of people that are actively being oppressed.
but them' the breaks. who thought morality was easy?
The bolded are just unfounded assumptions. You can have the most diverse and tolerant society and still have people who are not attracted to white women or have "yellow fever". I really think it's hard to blame everything on "tradition" or such.
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On August 03 2013 03:16 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 03:14 Iyerbeth wrote:
Another question, if a trans person has a moral duty to disclose that information, does society have a moral duty to protect them from the social consequences via legislation about not sharing voluntarily disclosed confidential information? Discrimination against trans people is obviously wrong. Society has an obligation to protect every member, trans or not, from abuse, harassment, violence and so forth.
But I mean, if we accept a trans person should disclose, should there be penalties for those who then share that information considering there will always be negative consequences?
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