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Obama backs gay marriage - Page 15

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Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
March 02 2013 20:36 GMT
#281
On March 03 2013 05:27 henkel wrote:
Am I the only one hoping the new pope will be in favor of gay marriage. Hence changing this entire discussion by removing the only "argument" against.


The Catholic Church isn't even the loudest opponent of gay marriage in the United States.
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
henkel
Profile Joined May 2011
Netherlands146 Posts
March 02 2013 20:51 GMT
#282
On March 03 2013 05:29 McBengt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 03 2013 05:27 henkel wrote:
Am I the only one hoping the new pope will be in favor of gay marriage. Hence changing this entire discussion by removing the only "argument" against.


Sure I'm hoping for that too. I am also hoping for a blowjob from Scarlett Johanssen. I have a hard time figuring out which one is more likely.


Yeah thats an even harder question. But don't give up hope

On March 03 2013 05:36 Mindcrime wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 03 2013 05:27 henkel wrote:
Am I the only one hoping the new pope will be in favor of gay marriage. Hence changing this entire discussion by removing the only "argument" against.


The Catholic Church isn't even the loudest opponent of gay marriage in the United States.


really? Whenever I hear an argument against same sex marriage it always seems religion based. Whats the loudest opponent then(in the states)?
MaestroSC
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States2073 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-02 21:00:19
March 02 2013 20:59 GMT
#283
Are there people on TL who still oppose gay marriage?

Lol. Christianity, the only religion where your views give you the right to dictate how people outside your religion live. (and this coming from a person raised in christian education/upbringing his whole life)

Islam "I cannot eat pork"
Christianity "You cannot marry him!"
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
March 02 2013 21:07 GMT
#284
On March 02 2013 22:05 Myles wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2013 21:53 Ryuhou)aS( wrote:
I'll preface this by saying, i do believe gays should be allowed to marry, but i don't believe churches should be forced to go against their beliefs to give gays a marriage "ceremony" in their church. You can't just take away one person's rights in order to give another person rights. And as wrong as their (the religious anti-homosexuality) belief is, you can't make laws forcing a religion to change or make laws forcing people to change their religious beliefs (that's definitely in the constitution). It's not about people being for/against any certain religion, it's about making laws for/against any certain religion.

The only point I really think a lot of you are missing is

The administration said unequivocally in a friend-of-the-court brief filed late on Thursday that gay marriage should be allowed to resume in California, where citizens voted to bar it in a 2008 referendum known as Proposition 8.

and
The Obama administration is asking the Supreme Court to overturn California's


This is a dangerous precedent. The problem is, it's setting up the Supreme Court to be the #1 power over all laws of the country, basically throwing out the "checks and balances" that our government is supposed to have. After this, what's to stop the supreme court from doing away with congress? or the president? or elections?

What if Obama(or any other president) asks the supreme court to do away with the law saying a president can only run for presidential election twice? (this is a bad summary..it actually says something about not being in the office of presidency more than 8 years, or if they came into the office during another presidents term [ie when Kennedy was shot] with 2 or more years left in that term, they can only run and gain the office for 1 more term of 4 years) What if they do this, the people actually vote Obama (or any other president) out of office, then he asks the supreme court to overturn that vote?

My point is, if it's something that was voted on, by the citizens, then you can't just throw it out the door arbitrarily like that. It should have to be voted on again, and again, and again, until it passes. We shouldn't just be making laws to force beliefs onto people (either religious or non-religious or whatever they may be). We should be more focused on educating and persuading people that they should vote for something like gay marriage being allowed, not against. And by this i don't mean railing, name-calling, or stuff like that, it should be logical, and respectful, while still being persuasive (by using words to change one's belief) and the massive amount of yelling and name-calling I see from both sides of the argument, is only going to cause further disruption and separation, not cohesiveness and unity.

A vote by a majority of people doesn't mean you can make a law for anything - that leads to the tyranny of the majority. People should be guaranteed certain rights, and even if a lot of people don't agree that those people should have rights that doesn't make it legal(see the civil rights movement). This isn't about the supreme court deciding on any law, of which many of the things you spoke of would require constitutional amendments, only ones which affect peoples' right, such as Roe vs Wade or Brown vs The Board of Education. And while Obama is asking it to be overturned, in reality the discrimination between gays and straights under marriage would be examined under the equal protection clause of the constitution, and not simply overruled because Obama asked for it.

And by saying you can't forbid gay people to marry doesn't mean you have to do it yourself. Gay people should have the same legal marriage as straight people, but Churches shouldn't have to marry them. I would hope that would be the change, but UK did/is trying to go the other route.

the funny thing about the constitution, including the bill of rights, was that it was voted on by a few white men. so, the idea that it is the epitome of civil rights is ludicrous. of note, the bill of rights and constitution allowed slavery, allowed only men to vote, etc. etc.

it is better to have a majority of people decide civil rights than a minority (which is the constitution). sure, it leads to a majority rule, but i see that as a lot better than some old ass white dudes who are long dead deciding what was right and wrong, or even some old asses that we currently have in teh supreme court deciding whats right and wrong.
electronic voyeur
Profile Joined October 2012
United States133 Posts
March 02 2013 21:10 GMT
#285
He has unfortunately flip-flopped on a lot of issues.
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
March 02 2013 21:11 GMT
#286
On March 03 2013 05:51 henkel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 03 2013 05:36 Mindcrime wrote:
On March 03 2013 05:27 henkel wrote:
Am I the only one hoping the new pope will be in favor of gay marriage. Hence changing this entire discussion by removing the only "argument" against.


The Catholic Church isn't even the loudest opponent of gay marriage in the United States.


really? Whenever I hear an argument against same sex marriage it always seems religion based. Whats the loudest opponent then(in the states)?


You have to keep the demographics of the United States in mind. Catholics are not just outnumbered by protestants, but by evangelical protestants.
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
hypercube
Profile Joined April 2010
Hungary2735 Posts
March 02 2013 21:13 GMT
#287
On March 03 2013 05:51 henkel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 03 2013 05:29 McBengt wrote:
On March 03 2013 05:27 henkel wrote:
Am I the only one hoping the new pope will be in favor of gay marriage. Hence changing this entire discussion by removing the only "argument" against.


Sure I'm hoping for that too. I am also hoping for a blowjob from Scarlett Johanssen. I have a hard time figuring out which one is more likely.


Yeah thats an even harder question. But don't give up hope

Show nested quote +
On March 03 2013 05:36 Mindcrime wrote:
On March 03 2013 05:27 henkel wrote:
Am I the only one hoping the new pope will be in favor of gay marriage. Hence changing this entire discussion by removing the only "argument" against.


The Catholic Church isn't even the loudest opponent of gay marriage in the United States.


really? Whenever I hear an argument against same sex marriage it always seems religion based. Whats the loudest opponent then(in the states)?


Evangelical churches?
"Sending people in rockets to other planets is a waste of money better spent on sending rockets into people on this planet."
McBengt
Profile Joined May 2011
Sweden1684 Posts
March 02 2013 21:15 GMT
#288
On March 03 2013 06:10 electronic voyeur wrote:
He has unfortunately flip-flopped on a lot of issues.


Obama? What issues has he flip-flopped on other than gay marriage, which he was supportive of even before pushing for federal legalisation?
"My twelve year old will out-reason Bill Maher when it comes to understanding, you know, what, uh, how to logic work" - Rick Santorum
hypercube
Profile Joined April 2010
Hungary2735 Posts
March 02 2013 21:16 GMT
#289
On March 03 2013 06:10 electronic voyeur wrote:
He has unfortunately flip-flopped on a lot of issues.


He didn't flip-flop, his views have evolved.

+ Show Spoiler +
Although some conservatives might claim that they were intelligently designed by his advisors to maximize his re-election chances.
"Sending people in rockets to other planets is a waste of money better spent on sending rockets into people on this planet."
Kerwin
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United States220 Posts
March 02 2013 21:23 GMT
#290
Civil rights shouldn't be available for voting for the public. We don't have a democracy (rule by many) but a republic (rule by law). If people decided they wanted to pass some racist legislation, it would never see the light of day because those people's civil rights are not eligible to be taken away by the many. Until we get a federal law allowing gay people the same rights as straights, then this will keep on happening. Civil rights should be based on what is right, not what most of the people are thinking, because most of the people (at least in our country) are stupid and/or religious. (Religious not necessarily being synonymous with stupid, but obviously having a huge impact on how much you care about people who don't believe the same thing as you)
Stratos_speAr
Profile Joined May 2009
United States6959 Posts
March 02 2013 21:28 GMT
#291
On March 03 2013 05:59 MaestroSC wrote:
Are there people on TL who still oppose gay marriage?

Lol. Christianity, the only religion where your views give you the right to dictate how people outside your religion live. (and this coming from a person raised in christian education/upbringing his whole life)

Islam "I cannot eat pork"
Christianity "You cannot marry him!"


Actually, a lot of religions try to tell other people what they can't do (especially Islam). The religions that immediately come to mind as "inward" instead of "outward" religions would be East Asian religions (primarily Buddhism).
A sound mind in a sound body, is a short, but full description of a happy state in this World: he that has these two, has little more to wish for; and he that wants either of them, will be little the better for anything else.
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
March 02 2013 21:30 GMT
#292
On March 03 2013 06:16 hypercube wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 03 2013 06:10 electronic voyeur wrote:
He has unfortunately flip-flopped on a lot of issues.


He didn't flip-flop, his views have evolved.

+ Show Spoiler +
Although some conservatives might claim that they were intelligently designed by his advisors to maximize his re-election chances.

anyone with half a brain would claim that..... you dont go from saying marriage is between a man and a woman to gay marriage is perfectly alright at his age....
Kerwin
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United States220 Posts
March 02 2013 21:35 GMT
#293
On March 03 2013 06:30 dAPhREAk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 03 2013 06:16 hypercube wrote:
On March 03 2013 06:10 electronic voyeur wrote:
He has unfortunately flip-flopped on a lot of issues.


He didn't flip-flop, his views have evolved.

+ Show Spoiler +
Although some conservatives might claim that they were intelligently designed by his advisors to maximize his re-election chances.

anyone with half a brain would claim that..... you dont go from saying marriage is between a man and a woman to gay marriage is perfectly alright at his age....

Unfortunately, gay marriage is about as divisive an issue as there is in America right now, so it's simply not something he could support in his first term. However, "don't ask, don't tell" was repealed during his first term. If you've listened to him talk, it's pretty clear that he supports gay rights, but he can't do things by himself and needs the support of the other politicians in Washington.
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
March 02 2013 21:43 GMT
#294
On March 03 2013 06:07 dAPhREAk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2013 22:05 Myles wrote:
On March 02 2013 21:53 Ryuhou)aS( wrote:
I'll preface this by saying, i do believe gays should be allowed to marry, but i don't believe churches should be forced to go against their beliefs to give gays a marriage "ceremony" in their church. You can't just take away one person's rights in order to give another person rights. And as wrong as their (the religious anti-homosexuality) belief is, you can't make laws forcing a religion to change or make laws forcing people to change their religious beliefs (that's definitely in the constitution). It's not about people being for/against any certain religion, it's about making laws for/against any certain religion.

The only point I really think a lot of you are missing is

The administration said unequivocally in a friend-of-the-court brief filed late on Thursday that gay marriage should be allowed to resume in California, where citizens voted to bar it in a 2008 referendum known as Proposition 8.

and
The Obama administration is asking the Supreme Court to overturn California's


This is a dangerous precedent. The problem is, it's setting up the Supreme Court to be the #1 power over all laws of the country, basically throwing out the "checks and balances" that our government is supposed to have. After this, what's to stop the supreme court from doing away with congress? or the president? or elections?

What if Obama(or any other president) asks the supreme court to do away with the law saying a president can only run for presidential election twice? (this is a bad summary..it actually says something about not being in the office of presidency more than 8 years, or if they came into the office during another presidents term [ie when Kennedy was shot] with 2 or more years left in that term, they can only run and gain the office for 1 more term of 4 years) What if they do this, the people actually vote Obama (or any other president) out of office, then he asks the supreme court to overturn that vote?

My point is, if it's something that was voted on, by the citizens, then you can't just throw it out the door arbitrarily like that. It should have to be voted on again, and again, and again, until it passes. We shouldn't just be making laws to force beliefs onto people (either religious or non-religious or whatever they may be). We should be more focused on educating and persuading people that they should vote for something like gay marriage being allowed, not against. And by this i don't mean railing, name-calling, or stuff like that, it should be logical, and respectful, while still being persuasive (by using words to change one's belief) and the massive amount of yelling and name-calling I see from both sides of the argument, is only going to cause further disruption and separation, not cohesiveness and unity.

A vote by a majority of people doesn't mean you can make a law for anything - that leads to the tyranny of the majority. People should be guaranteed certain rights, and even if a lot of people don't agree that those people should have rights that doesn't make it legal(see the civil rights movement). This isn't about the supreme court deciding on any law, of which many of the things you spoke of would require constitutional amendments, only ones which affect peoples' right, such as Roe vs Wade or Brown vs The Board of Education. And while Obama is asking it to be overturned, in reality the discrimination between gays and straights under marriage would be examined under the equal protection clause of the constitution, and not simply overruled because Obama asked for it.

And by saying you can't forbid gay people to marry doesn't mean you have to do it yourself. Gay people should have the same legal marriage as straight people, but Churches shouldn't have to marry them. I would hope that would be the change, but UK did/is trying to go the other route.

the funny thing about the constitution, including the bill of rights, was that it was voted on by a few white men. so, the idea that it is the epitome of civil rights is ludicrous. of note, the bill of rights and constitution allowed slavery, allowed only men to vote, etc. etc.

it is better to have a majority of people decide civil rights than a minority (which is the constitution). sure, it leads to a majority rule, but i see that as a lot better than some old ass white dudes who are long dead deciding what was right and wrong, or even some old asses that we currently have in teh supreme court deciding whats right and wrong.


I would agree except for the fact that oppression rarely ever originates in the Supreme Court. The SCOTUS has delivered many reprehensible decisions since 1789, but such decisions almost always involve okaying the oppressive laws and policies that originated in more democratic bodies.
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
Derez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Netherlands6068 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-02 21:55:41
March 02 2013 21:53 GMT
#295
I think its quite likely the court strikes it down.

It takes only 1 ideological small government purist to break with the majority, the amicus brief filed by the group of republicans offers a clear way to do that, or a single justice concerned with his legacy (Roberts comes to mind). Although the conservative movement in the US will never openly admit it, prop 8 and similar measures getting struck down could be great for them, it takes a lose-lose issue off the table for them forever. Demographics are destiny and with the way public opinion is developing (13% increase in those that favor over the last 4-5 years, now the majority) and it's one of many factors that are causing them to lose the youth vote so impressively, it's an issue they need to fabricate an exit out of without offending the base. The supreme court seems as good a way as any to do that.
McBengt
Profile Joined May 2011
Sweden1684 Posts
March 02 2013 21:56 GMT
#296
On March 03 2013 06:53 Derez wrote:
I think its quite likely the court strikes it down.

It takes only 1 ideological small government purist to break with the majority, the amicus brief filed by the group of republicans offers a clear way to do that, or a single justice concerned with his legacy (Roberts comes to mind). Although the conservative movement in the US will never openly admit it, it takes a lose-lose issue off the table for them forever. Demographics are destiny and with the way public opinion is developing (13% increase in those that favor over the last 4-5 years, now the majority), it's an issue they need to fabricate an exit out of without offending the base. The supreme court seems as good a way as any to do that.


I truly don't think the conservatives who are vehemently opposing this fully realize what an opportunity this is, it's basically a get out of jail free card.
"My twelve year old will out-reason Bill Maher when it comes to understanding, you know, what, uh, how to logic work" - Rick Santorum
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
March 02 2013 21:59 GMT
#297
On March 03 2013 06:35 Kerwin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 03 2013 06:30 dAPhREAk wrote:
On March 03 2013 06:16 hypercube wrote:
On March 03 2013 06:10 electronic voyeur wrote:
He has unfortunately flip-flopped on a lot of issues.


He didn't flip-flop, his views have evolved.

+ Show Spoiler +
Although some conservatives might claim that they were intelligently designed by his advisors to maximize his re-election chances.

anyone with half a brain would claim that..... you dont go from saying marriage is between a man and a woman to gay marriage is perfectly alright at his age....

Unfortunately, gay marriage is about as divisive an issue as there is in America right now, so it's simply not something he could support in his first term. However, "don't ask, don't tell" was repealed during his first term. If you've listened to him talk, it's pretty clear that he supports gay rights, but he can't do things by himself and needs the support of the other politicians in Washington.

so he lied to us his first term?
Zorgaz
Profile Joined June 2010
Sweden2951 Posts
March 02 2013 22:08 GMT
#298
On March 03 2013 06:59 dAPhREAk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 03 2013 06:35 Kerwin wrote:
On March 03 2013 06:30 dAPhREAk wrote:
On March 03 2013 06:16 hypercube wrote:
On March 03 2013 06:10 electronic voyeur wrote:
He has unfortunately flip-flopped on a lot of issues.


He didn't flip-flop, his views have evolved.

+ Show Spoiler +
Although some conservatives might claim that they were intelligently designed by his advisors to maximize his re-election chances.

anyone with half a brain would claim that..... you dont go from saying marriage is between a man and a woman to gay marriage is perfectly alright at his age....

Unfortunately, gay marriage is about as divisive an issue as there is in America right now, so it's simply not something he could support in his first term. However, "don't ask, don't tell" was repealed during his first term. If you've listened to him talk, it's pretty clear that he supports gay rights, but he can't do things by himself and needs the support of the other politicians in Washington.

so he lied to us his first term?


Politicians lie all the time, they say what they think most people want to hear
Furthermore, I think the Collosi should be removed! (Zorgaz -Terran/AbrA-Random/Zorg-Dota2) Guineapigs <3
Zooper31
Profile Joined May 2009
United States5713 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-02 22:11:17
March 02 2013 22:09 GMT
#299
On March 03 2013 06:59 dAPhREAk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 03 2013 06:35 Kerwin wrote:
On March 03 2013 06:30 dAPhREAk wrote:
On March 03 2013 06:16 hypercube wrote:
On March 03 2013 06:10 electronic voyeur wrote:
He has unfortunately flip-flopped on a lot of issues.


He didn't flip-flop, his views have evolved.

+ Show Spoiler +
Although some conservatives might claim that they were intelligently designed by his advisors to maximize his re-election chances.

anyone with half a brain would claim that..... you dont go from saying marriage is between a man and a woman to gay marriage is perfectly alright at his age....

Unfortunately, gay marriage is about as divisive an issue as there is in America right now, so it's simply not something he could support in his first term. However, "don't ask, don't tell" was repealed during his first term. If you've listened to him talk, it's pretty clear that he supports gay rights, but he can't do things by himself and needs the support of the other politicians in Washington.

so he lied to us his first term?


And this surprises you? Are you really that ignorant to think no politician lies to us? He always supported gay rights. He just didn't have the liberty to openly admit his full beliefs about gay marriage without it hurting him more than helping him, so he kept quiet about it. Now people are more enlightened and more tolerant of others rights and beliefs and it is safe to say what he actually wants to say about the matter.

You could compare it to people who were against slavery back when it was in full force. You couldn't outright say so otherwise you'd be punished and treated badly.
Asato ma sad gamaya, tamaso ma jyotir gamaya, mrtyor mamrtam gamaya
Kerwin
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United States220 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-02 22:24:57
March 02 2013 22:23 GMT
#300
On March 03 2013 06:59 dAPhREAk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 03 2013 06:35 Kerwin wrote:
On March 03 2013 06:30 dAPhREAk wrote:
On March 03 2013 06:16 hypercube wrote:
On March 03 2013 06:10 electronic voyeur wrote:
He has unfortunately flip-flopped on a lot of issues.


He didn't flip-flop, his views have evolved.

+ Show Spoiler +
Although some conservatives might claim that they were intelligently designed by his advisors to maximize his re-election chances.

anyone with half a brain would claim that..... you dont go from saying marriage is between a man and a woman to gay marriage is perfectly alright at his age....

Unfortunately, gay marriage is about as divisive an issue as there is in America right now, so it's simply not something he could support in his first term. However, "don't ask, don't tell" was repealed during his first term. If you've listened to him talk, it's pretty clear that he supports gay rights, but he can't do things by himself and needs the support of the other politicians in Washington.

so he lied to us his first term?

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a quote from Obama saying he was against gay marriage. You'd be more likely to find him skirting the issue or saying something closer to "not right now".

Edit: Also, a big reason conservatives want to keep the issue open is that it is a huge way to drive the common folk to the polls. The common people may not know much about politics, but they know the bible tells them gay people are evil.
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