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On March 03 2013 07:23 Kerwin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 06:59 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 06:35 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 06:30 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 06:16 hypercube wrote:On March 03 2013 06:10 electronic voyeur wrote:
He has unfortunately flip-flopped on a lot of issues. He didn't flip-flop, his views have evolved. + Show Spoiler +Although some conservatives might claim that they were intelligently designed by his advisors to maximize his re-election chances. anyone with half a brain would claim that..... you dont go from saying marriage is between a man and a woman to gay marriage is perfectly alright at his age.... Unfortunately, gay marriage is about as divisive an issue as there is in America right now, so it's simply not something he could support in his first term. However, "don't ask, don't tell" was repealed during his first term. If you've listened to him talk, it's pretty clear that he supports gay rights, but he can't do things by himself and needs the support of the other politicians in Washington. so he lied to us his first term? I think you'd be hard pressed to find a quote from Obama saying he was against gay marriage. You'd be more likely to find him skirting the issue or saying something closer to "not right now". Edit: Also, a big reason conservatives want to keep the issue open is that it is a huge way to drive the common folk to the polls. The common people may not know much about politics, but they know the bible tells them gay people are evil.
He said, "I personally believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. But I also agree with most Americans, including Vice President Cheney and over 2,000 religious leaders of all different beliefs, that decisions about marriage should be left to the states as they always have been."
http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/05/09/11623172-the-evolution-of-obamas-stance-on-gay-marriage?lite
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On March 03 2013 07:09 Zooper31 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 06:59 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 06:35 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 06:30 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 06:16 hypercube wrote:On March 03 2013 06:10 electronic voyeur wrote:
He has unfortunately flip-flopped on a lot of issues. He didn't flip-flop, his views have evolved. + Show Spoiler +Although some conservatives might claim that they were intelligently designed by his advisors to maximize his re-election chances. anyone with half a brain would claim that..... you dont go from saying marriage is between a man and a woman to gay marriage is perfectly alright at his age.... Unfortunately, gay marriage is about as divisive an issue as there is in America right now, so it's simply not something he could support in his first term. However, "don't ask, don't tell" was repealed during his first term. If you've listened to him talk, it's pretty clear that he supports gay rights, but he can't do things by himself and needs the support of the other politicians in Washington. so he lied to us his first term? And this surprises you? Are you really that ignorant to think no politician lies to us? He always supported gay rights. He just didn't have the liberty to openly admit his full beliefs about gay marriage without it hurting him more than helping him, so he kept quiet about it. Now people are more enlightened and more tolerant of others rights and beliefs and it is safe to say what he actually wants to say about the matter. You could compare it to people who were against slavery back when it was in full force. You couldn't outright say so otherwise you'd be punished and treated badly.
im not sure why you would defend obama for being a liar--and i am surprised that he would outright lie. i would prefer someone who sticks to their principles than a liar. and why do people keep saying he kept quiet? he came straight out and said marriage was between a man and woman. he has flip-flopped on this issue.
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On March 03 2013 07:33 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 07:23 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 06:59 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 06:35 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 06:30 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 06:16 hypercube wrote:On March 03 2013 06:10 electronic voyeur wrote:
He has unfortunately flip-flopped on a lot of issues. He didn't flip-flop, his views have evolved. + Show Spoiler +Although some conservatives might claim that they were intelligently designed by his advisors to maximize his re-election chances. anyone with half a brain would claim that..... you dont go from saying marriage is between a man and a woman to gay marriage is perfectly alright at his age.... Unfortunately, gay marriage is about as divisive an issue as there is in America right now, so it's simply not something he could support in his first term. However, "don't ask, don't tell" was repealed during his first term. If you've listened to him talk, it's pretty clear that he supports gay rights, but he can't do things by himself and needs the support of the other politicians in Washington. so he lied to us his first term? I think you'd be hard pressed to find a quote from Obama saying he was against gay marriage. You'd be more likely to find him skirting the issue or saying something closer to "not right now". Edit: Also, a big reason conservatives want to keep the issue open is that it is a huge way to drive the common folk to the polls. The common people may not know much about politics, but they know the bible tells them gay people are evil. Show nested quote +He said, "I personally believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. But I also agree with most Americans, including Vice President Cheney and over 2,000 religious leaders of all different beliefs, that decisions about marriage should be left to the states as they always have been." http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/05/09/11623172-the-evolution-of-obamas-stance-on-gay-marriage?lite
Saying he personally believes that marriage is between a man and a woman is not a political stance on gay rights, when in the next statement he says who he think should be making these decisions. That is not a lie. You can not practice something but believe others should be able to practice it. This was him deflecting the issue by saying it's not an issue he believes he should have to legislate on.
Edit: besides I don't know why people complain so much about "flip-flopping". As a person you should never make decisions based on how a past version of you thought, but on how you currently think and the information currently available to you. A person who never changes their mind sounds like a person who always thinks they are right and can't make a mistake.
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On March 03 2013 07:42 Kerwin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 07:33 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 07:23 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 06:59 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 06:35 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 06:30 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 06:16 hypercube wrote:On March 03 2013 06:10 electronic voyeur wrote:
He has unfortunately flip-flopped on a lot of issues. He didn't flip-flop, his views have evolved. + Show Spoiler +Although some conservatives might claim that they were intelligently designed by his advisors to maximize his re-election chances. anyone with half a brain would claim that..... you dont go from saying marriage is between a man and a woman to gay marriage is perfectly alright at his age.... Unfortunately, gay marriage is about as divisive an issue as there is in America right now, so it's simply not something he could support in his first term. However, "don't ask, don't tell" was repealed during his first term. If you've listened to him talk, it's pretty clear that he supports gay rights, but he can't do things by himself and needs the support of the other politicians in Washington. so he lied to us his first term? I think you'd be hard pressed to find a quote from Obama saying he was against gay marriage. You'd be more likely to find him skirting the issue or saying something closer to "not right now". Edit: Also, a big reason conservatives want to keep the issue open is that it is a huge way to drive the common folk to the polls. The common people may not know much about politics, but they know the bible tells them gay people are evil. He said, "I personally believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. But I also agree with most Americans, including Vice President Cheney and over 2,000 religious leaders of all different beliefs, that decisions about marriage should be left to the states as they always have been." http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/05/09/11623172-the-evolution-of-obamas-stance-on-gay-marriage?lite Saying he personally believes that marriage is between a man and a woman is not a political stance on gay rights, when in the next statement he says who he think should be making these decisions. That is not a lie. You can not practice something but believe others should be able to practice it. This was him deflecting the issue by saying it's not an issue he believes he should have to legislate on.
you do know he is saying that it shouldnt be left up to the states now, right?
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On March 03 2013 07:48 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 07:42 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 07:33 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 07:23 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 06:59 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 06:35 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 06:30 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 06:16 hypercube wrote:On March 03 2013 06:10 electronic voyeur wrote:
He has unfortunately flip-flopped on a lot of issues. He didn't flip-flop, his views have evolved. + Show Spoiler +Although some conservatives might claim that they were intelligently designed by his advisors to maximize his re-election chances. anyone with half a brain would claim that..... you dont go from saying marriage is between a man and a woman to gay marriage is perfectly alright at his age.... Unfortunately, gay marriage is about as divisive an issue as there is in America right now, so it's simply not something he could support in his first term. However, "don't ask, don't tell" was repealed during his first term. If you've listened to him talk, it's pretty clear that he supports gay rights, but he can't do things by himself and needs the support of the other politicians in Washington. so he lied to us his first term? I think you'd be hard pressed to find a quote from Obama saying he was against gay marriage. You'd be more likely to find him skirting the issue or saying something closer to "not right now". Edit: Also, a big reason conservatives want to keep the issue open is that it is a huge way to drive the common folk to the polls. The common people may not know much about politics, but they know the bible tells them gay people are evil. He said, "I personally believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. But I also agree with most Americans, including Vice President Cheney and over 2,000 religious leaders of all different beliefs, that decisions about marriage should be left to the states as they always have been." http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/05/09/11623172-the-evolution-of-obamas-stance-on-gay-marriage?lite Saying he personally believes that marriage is between a man and a woman is not a political stance on gay rights, when in the next statement he says who he think should be making these decisions. That is not a lie. You can not practice something but believe others should be able to practice it. This was him deflecting the issue by saying it's not an issue he believes he should have to legislate on. you do know he is saying that it shouldnt be left up to the states now, right?
You do realize that making a change in his stance does not constitute lying? My personal belief is that he had to skirt the issue in the debate in order to get elected. But he didn't lie in the debate. As a lawyer you consider all angles to a case. In the debate he was largely talking about a social issue. But in this case (since it's being taken to the supreme court) it's being viewed as a civil rights issue. Civil rights issues SHOULD NOT be voted on by the populace. Civil rights issues need to go before the Supreme Court.
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On March 03 2013 07:35 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 07:09 Zooper31 wrote:On March 03 2013 06:59 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 06:35 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 06:30 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 06:16 hypercube wrote:On March 03 2013 06:10 electronic voyeur wrote:
He has unfortunately flip-flopped on a lot of issues. He didn't flip-flop, his views have evolved. + Show Spoiler +Although some conservatives might claim that they were intelligently designed by his advisors to maximize his re-election chances. anyone with half a brain would claim that..... you dont go from saying marriage is between a man and a woman to gay marriage is perfectly alright at his age.... Unfortunately, gay marriage is about as divisive an issue as there is in America right now, so it's simply not something he could support in his first term. However, "don't ask, don't tell" was repealed during his first term. If you've listened to him talk, it's pretty clear that he supports gay rights, but he can't do things by himself and needs the support of the other politicians in Washington. so he lied to us his first term? And this surprises you? Are you really that ignorant to think no politician lies to us? He always supported gay rights. He just didn't have the liberty to openly admit his full beliefs about gay marriage without it hurting him more than helping him, so he kept quiet about it. Now people are more enlightened and more tolerant of others rights and beliefs and it is safe to say what he actually wants to say about the matter. You could compare it to people who were against slavery back when it was in full force. You couldn't outright say so otherwise you'd be punished and treated badly. im not sure why you would defend obama for being a liar--and i am surprised that he would outright lie. i would prefer someone who sticks to their principles than a liar. and why do people keep saying he kept quiet? he came straight out and said marriage was between a man and woman. he has flip-flopped on this issue.
Because I feel the lie was needed for the greater good. I just found it kinda stupid you were surprised/upset that he lied, hes a politician...
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On March 03 2013 07:56 Kerwin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 07:48 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 07:42 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 07:33 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 07:23 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 06:59 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 06:35 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 06:30 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 06:16 hypercube wrote:On March 03 2013 06:10 electronic voyeur wrote:
He has unfortunately flip-flopped on a lot of issues. He didn't flip-flop, his views have evolved. + Show Spoiler +Although some conservatives might claim that they were intelligently designed by his advisors to maximize his re-election chances. anyone with half a brain would claim that..... you dont go from saying marriage is between a man and a woman to gay marriage is perfectly alright at his age.... Unfortunately, gay marriage is about as divisive an issue as there is in America right now, so it's simply not something he could support in his first term. However, "don't ask, don't tell" was repealed during his first term. If you've listened to him talk, it's pretty clear that he supports gay rights, but he can't do things by himself and needs the support of the other politicians in Washington. so he lied to us his first term? I think you'd be hard pressed to find a quote from Obama saying he was against gay marriage. You'd be more likely to find him skirting the issue or saying something closer to "not right now". Edit: Also, a big reason conservatives want to keep the issue open is that it is a huge way to drive the common folk to the polls. The common people may not know much about politics, but they know the bible tells them gay people are evil. He said, "I personally believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. But I also agree with most Americans, including Vice President Cheney and over 2,000 religious leaders of all different beliefs, that decisions about marriage should be left to the states as they always have been." http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/05/09/11623172-the-evolution-of-obamas-stance-on-gay-marriage?lite Saying he personally believes that marriage is between a man and a woman is not a political stance on gay rights, when in the next statement he says who he think should be making these decisions. That is not a lie. You can not practice something but believe others should be able to practice it. This was him deflecting the issue by saying it's not an issue he believes he should have to legislate on. you do know he is saying that it shouldnt be left up to the states now, right? You do realize that making a change in his stance does not constitute lying? My personal belief is that he had to skirt the issue in the debate in order to get elected. But he didn't lie in the debate. As a lawyer you consider all angles to a case. In the debate he was largely talking about a social issue. But in this case (since it's being taken to the supreme court) it's being viewed as a civil rights issue. Civil rights issues SHOULD NOT be voted on by the populace. Civil rights issues need to go before the Supreme Court.
so instead of millions of people deciding what is best for the populace, a few old ass people should decide what is best for the populace. gotcha.
whether he lied or not (debatable), he is a flip-flopper.
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On March 03 2013 07:59 Zooper31 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 07:35 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 07:09 Zooper31 wrote:On March 03 2013 06:59 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 06:35 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 06:30 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 06:16 hypercube wrote:On March 03 2013 06:10 electronic voyeur wrote:
He has unfortunately flip-flopped on a lot of issues. He didn't flip-flop, his views have evolved. + Show Spoiler +Although some conservatives might claim that they were intelligently designed by his advisors to maximize his re-election chances. anyone with half a brain would claim that..... you dont go from saying marriage is between a man and a woman to gay marriage is perfectly alright at his age.... Unfortunately, gay marriage is about as divisive an issue as there is in America right now, so it's simply not something he could support in his first term. However, "don't ask, don't tell" was repealed during his first term. If you've listened to him talk, it's pretty clear that he supports gay rights, but he can't do things by himself and needs the support of the other politicians in Washington. so he lied to us his first term? And this surprises you? Are you really that ignorant to think no politician lies to us? He always supported gay rights. He just didn't have the liberty to openly admit his full beliefs about gay marriage without it hurting him more than helping him, so he kept quiet about it. Now people are more enlightened and more tolerant of others rights and beliefs and it is safe to say what he actually wants to say about the matter. You could compare it to people who were against slavery back when it was in full force. You couldn't outright say so otherwise you'd be punished and treated badly. im not sure why you would defend obama for being a liar--and i am surprised that he would outright lie. i would prefer someone who sticks to their principles than a liar. and why do people keep saying he kept quiet? he came straight out and said marriage was between a man and woman. he has flip-flopped on this issue. Because I feel the lie was needed for the greater good
Ah yes, manipulate the ignorant masses for their own good.
I don't know why people even pretend to want democracy anymore. Everyone I talk to believes people are stupid and some elite should be ruling because they know what's best.
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On March 03 2013 08:04 rusedeguerre wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 07:59 Zooper31 wrote:On March 03 2013 07:35 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 07:09 Zooper31 wrote:On March 03 2013 06:59 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 06:35 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 06:30 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 06:16 hypercube wrote:On March 03 2013 06:10 electronic voyeur wrote:
He has unfortunately flip-flopped on a lot of issues. He didn't flip-flop, his views have evolved. + Show Spoiler +Although some conservatives might claim that they were intelligently designed by his advisors to maximize his re-election chances. anyone with half a brain would claim that..... you dont go from saying marriage is between a man and a woman to gay marriage is perfectly alright at his age.... Unfortunately, gay marriage is about as divisive an issue as there is in America right now, so it's simply not something he could support in his first term. However, "don't ask, don't tell" was repealed during his first term. If you've listened to him talk, it's pretty clear that he supports gay rights, but he can't do things by himself and needs the support of the other politicians in Washington. so he lied to us his first term? And this surprises you? Are you really that ignorant to think no politician lies to us? He always supported gay rights. He just didn't have the liberty to openly admit his full beliefs about gay marriage without it hurting him more than helping him, so he kept quiet about it. Now people are more enlightened and more tolerant of others rights and beliefs and it is safe to say what he actually wants to say about the matter. You could compare it to people who were against slavery back when it was in full force. You couldn't outright say so otherwise you'd be punished and treated badly. im not sure why you would defend obama for being a liar--and i am surprised that he would outright lie. i would prefer someone who sticks to their principles than a liar. and why do people keep saying he kept quiet? he came straight out and said marriage was between a man and woman. he has flip-flopped on this issue. Because I feel the lie was needed for the greater good Ah yes, manipulate the ignorant masses for their own good. I don't know why people even pretend to want democracy anymore. Everyone I talk to believes people are stupid and some elite should be ruling because they know what's best.
People are in fact stupid. Idk if I want the majority of them voting on such important things. But then it's better than a buncha elites voting on it for us instead.
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On March 03 2013 07:59 Zooper31 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 07:35 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 07:09 Zooper31 wrote:On March 03 2013 06:59 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 06:35 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 06:30 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 06:16 hypercube wrote:On March 03 2013 06:10 electronic voyeur wrote:
He has unfortunately flip-flopped on a lot of issues. He didn't flip-flop, his views have evolved. + Show Spoiler +Although some conservatives might claim that they were intelligently designed by his advisors to maximize his re-election chances. anyone with half a brain would claim that..... you dont go from saying marriage is between a man and a woman to gay marriage is perfectly alright at his age.... Unfortunately, gay marriage is about as divisive an issue as there is in America right now, so it's simply not something he could support in his first term. However, "don't ask, don't tell" was repealed during his first term. If you've listened to him talk, it's pretty clear that he supports gay rights, but he can't do things by himself and needs the support of the other politicians in Washington. so he lied to us his first term? And this surprises you? Are you really that ignorant to think no politician lies to us? He always supported gay rights. He just didn't have the liberty to openly admit his full beliefs about gay marriage without it hurting him more than helping him, so he kept quiet about it. Now people are more enlightened and more tolerant of others rights and beliefs and it is safe to say what he actually wants to say about the matter. You could compare it to people who were against slavery back when it was in full force. You couldn't outright say so otherwise you'd be punished and treated badly. im not sure why you would defend obama for being a liar--and i am surprised that he would outright lie. i would prefer someone who sticks to their principles than a liar. and why do people keep saying he kept quiet? he came straight out and said marriage was between a man and woman. he has flip-flopped on this issue. Because I feel the lie was needed for the greater good. I just found it kinda stupid you were surprised/upset that he lied, hes a politician...
i am sad that you are so disenfranchised with the system. i do not expect politicians to blatantly lie to me. i expect them to be wishy-washy, refuse to take positions and deflect. i dont expect them to say marriage doesnt include gays and then say it does, or say marriage should be decided by states and then say fuck the states, federal gov't bitches!
i understand why people are cool with what obama is doing because it reflects their own belief that gay marriage should be allowed (also my belief), but i think you guys should think for a second how fucking horrible it is that a politician blatantly misled everyone.... if a corporation did this the fucking internet would be ablaze with criticism, but because it reflects their own beliefs---its cool.
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On March 03 2013 08:00 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 07:56 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 07:48 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 07:42 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 07:33 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 07:23 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 06:59 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 06:35 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 06:30 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 06:16 hypercube wrote:[quote] He didn't flip-flop, his views have evolved. + Show Spoiler +Although some conservatives might claim that they were intelligently designed by his advisors to maximize his re-election chances. anyone with half a brain would claim that..... you dont go from saying marriage is between a man and a woman to gay marriage is perfectly alright at his age.... Unfortunately, gay marriage is about as divisive an issue as there is in America right now, so it's simply not something he could support in his first term. However, "don't ask, don't tell" was repealed during his first term. If you've listened to him talk, it's pretty clear that he supports gay rights, but he can't do things by himself and needs the support of the other politicians in Washington. so he lied to us his first term? I think you'd be hard pressed to find a quote from Obama saying he was against gay marriage. You'd be more likely to find him skirting the issue or saying something closer to "not right now". Edit: Also, a big reason conservatives want to keep the issue open is that it is a huge way to drive the common folk to the polls. The common people may not know much about politics, but they know the bible tells them gay people are evil. He said, "I personally believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. But I also agree with most Americans, including Vice President Cheney and over 2,000 religious leaders of all different beliefs, that decisions about marriage should be left to the states as they always have been." http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/05/09/11623172-the-evolution-of-obamas-stance-on-gay-marriage?lite Saying he personally believes that marriage is between a man and a woman is not a political stance on gay rights, when in the next statement he says who he think should be making these decisions. That is not a lie. You can not practice something but believe others should be able to practice it. This was him deflecting the issue by saying it's not an issue he believes he should have to legislate on. you do know he is saying that it shouldnt be left up to the states now, right? You do realize that making a change in his stance does not constitute lying? My personal belief is that he had to skirt the issue in the debate in order to get elected. But he didn't lie in the debate. As a lawyer you consider all angles to a case. In the debate he was largely talking about a social issue. But in this case (since it's being taken to the supreme court) it's being viewed as a civil rights issue. Civil rights issues SHOULD NOT be voted on by the populace. Civil rights issues need to go before the Supreme Court. so instead of millions of people deciding what is best for the populace, a few old ass people should decide what is best for the populace. gotcha. whether he lied or not (debatable), he is a flip-flopper.
Dude... how many times (in history ever...) have the millions of people ever been right about anything? Every civil rights movement in America has at first been opposed by the majority and slowly later generations except it. Unless you feel like waiting for 50-something years for the populace to catch up to reasonable thinking, the government needs to pass civil rights laws like this so people can get the rights they friggin' deserve as an American.
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On March 03 2013 08:10 Kerwin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 08:00 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 07:56 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 07:48 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 07:42 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 07:33 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 07:23 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 06:59 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 06:35 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 06:30 dAPhREAk wrote:
[quote]
anyone with half a brain would claim that..... you dont go from saying marriage is between a man and a woman to gay marriage is perfectly alright at his age.... Unfortunately, gay marriage is about as divisive an issue as there is in America right now, so it's simply not something he could support in his first term. However, "don't ask, don't tell" was repealed during his first term. If you've listened to him talk, it's pretty clear that he supports gay rights, but he can't do things by himself and needs the support of the other politicians in Washington. so he lied to us his first term? I think you'd be hard pressed to find a quote from Obama saying he was against gay marriage. You'd be more likely to find him skirting the issue or saying something closer to "not right now". Edit: Also, a big reason conservatives want to keep the issue open is that it is a huge way to drive the common folk to the polls. The common people may not know much about politics, but they know the bible tells them gay people are evil. He said, "I personally believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. But I also agree with most Americans, including Vice President Cheney and over 2,000 religious leaders of all different beliefs, that decisions about marriage should be left to the states as they always have been." http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/05/09/11623172-the-evolution-of-obamas-stance-on-gay-marriage?lite Saying he personally believes that marriage is between a man and a woman is not a political stance on gay rights, when in the next statement he says who he think should be making these decisions. That is not a lie. You can not practice something but believe others should be able to practice it. This was him deflecting the issue by saying it's not an issue he believes he should have to legislate on. you do know he is saying that it shouldnt be left up to the states now, right? You do realize that making a change in his stance does not constitute lying? My personal belief is that he had to skirt the issue in the debate in order to get elected. But he didn't lie in the debate. As a lawyer you consider all angles to a case. In the debate he was largely talking about a social issue. But in this case (since it's being taken to the supreme court) it's being viewed as a civil rights issue. Civil rights issues SHOULD NOT be voted on by the populace. Civil rights issues need to go before the Supreme Court. so instead of millions of people deciding what is best for the populace, a few old ass people should decide what is best for the populace. gotcha. whether he lied or not (debatable), he is a flip-flopper. Dude... how many times (in history ever...) have the millions of people ever been right about anything? Every civil rights movement in America has at first been opposed by the majority and slowly later generations except it. Unless you feel like waiting for 50-something years for the populace to catch up to reasonable thinking, the government needs to pass civil rights laws like this so people can get the rights they friggin' deserve as an American.
so, when the supreme court says fuck gay marriage and affirms the ban on gay marriage, you are cool with that system? or is it only if the supreme court says yay gay marriage and affirms the appellate decision?
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On March 03 2013 08:10 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 07:59 Zooper31 wrote:On March 03 2013 07:35 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 07:09 Zooper31 wrote:On March 03 2013 06:59 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 06:35 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 06:30 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 06:16 hypercube wrote:On March 03 2013 06:10 electronic voyeur wrote:
He has unfortunately flip-flopped on a lot of issues. He didn't flip-flop, his views have evolved. + Show Spoiler +Although some conservatives might claim that they were intelligently designed by his advisors to maximize his re-election chances. anyone with half a brain would claim that..... you dont go from saying marriage is between a man and a woman to gay marriage is perfectly alright at his age.... Unfortunately, gay marriage is about as divisive an issue as there is in America right now, so it's simply not something he could support in his first term. However, "don't ask, don't tell" was repealed during his first term. If you've listened to him talk, it's pretty clear that he supports gay rights, but he can't do things by himself and needs the support of the other politicians in Washington. so he lied to us his first term? And this surprises you? Are you really that ignorant to think no politician lies to us? He always supported gay rights. He just didn't have the liberty to openly admit his full beliefs about gay marriage without it hurting him more than helping him, so he kept quiet about it. Now people are more enlightened and more tolerant of others rights and beliefs and it is safe to say what he actually wants to say about the matter. You could compare it to people who were against slavery back when it was in full force. You couldn't outright say so otherwise you'd be punished and treated badly. im not sure why you would defend obama for being a liar--and i am surprised that he would outright lie. i would prefer someone who sticks to their principles than a liar. and why do people keep saying he kept quiet? he came straight out and said marriage was between a man and woman. he has flip-flopped on this issue. Because I feel the lie was needed for the greater good. I just found it kinda stupid you were surprised/upset that he lied, hes a politician... i am sad that you are so disenfranchised with the system. i do not expect politicians to blatantly lie to me. i expect them to be wishy-washy, refuse to take positions and deflect. i dont expect them to say marriage doesnt include gays and then say it does, or say marriage should be decided by states and then say fuck the states, federal gov't bitches! i understand why people are cool with what obama is doing because it reflects their own belief that gay marriage should be allowed (also my belief), but i think you guys should think for a second how fucking horrible it is that a politician blatantly misled everyone.... if a corporation did this the fucking internet would be ablaze with criticism, but because it reflects their own beliefs---its cool.
Sigh, he didn't mislead anyone. When he was asked that question, he responded how he felt fit at the time, answering the question largely as a social issue. It is now evident that this is a civil rights issues which based on our laws has to be brought to the supreme court and not state legislatures.
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On March 03 2013 08:12 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 08:10 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 08:00 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 07:56 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 07:48 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 07:42 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 07:33 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 07:23 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 06:59 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 06:35 Kerwin wrote:
[quote]
Unfortunately, gay marriage is about as divisive an issue as there is in America right now, so it's simply not something he could support in his first term. However, "don't ask, don't tell" was repealed during his first term. If you've listened to him talk, it's pretty clear that he supports gay rights, but he can't do things by himself and needs the support of the other politicians in Washington. so he lied to us his first term? I think you'd be hard pressed to find a quote from Obama saying he was against gay marriage. You'd be more likely to find him skirting the issue or saying something closer to "not right now". Edit: Also, a big reason conservatives want to keep the issue open is that it is a huge way to drive the common folk to the polls. The common people may not know much about politics, but they know the bible tells them gay people are evil. He said, "I personally believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. But I also agree with most Americans, including Vice President Cheney and over 2,000 religious leaders of all different beliefs, that decisions about marriage should be left to the states as they always have been." http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/05/09/11623172-the-evolution-of-obamas-stance-on-gay-marriage?lite Saying he personally believes that marriage is between a man and a woman is not a political stance on gay rights, when in the next statement he says who he think should be making these decisions. That is not a lie. You can not practice something but believe others should be able to practice it. This was him deflecting the issue by saying it's not an issue he believes he should have to legislate on. you do know he is saying that it shouldnt be left up to the states now, right? You do realize that making a change in his stance does not constitute lying? My personal belief is that he had to skirt the issue in the debate in order to get elected. But he didn't lie in the debate. As a lawyer you consider all angles to a case. In the debate he was largely talking about a social issue. But in this case (since it's being taken to the supreme court) it's being viewed as a civil rights issue. Civil rights issues SHOULD NOT be voted on by the populace. Civil rights issues need to go before the Supreme Court. so instead of millions of people deciding what is best for the populace, a few old ass people should decide what is best for the populace. gotcha. whether he lied or not (debatable), he is a flip-flopper. Dude... how many times (in history ever...) have the millions of people ever been right about anything? Every civil rights movement in America has at first been opposed by the majority and slowly later generations except it. Unless you feel like waiting for 50-something years for the populace to catch up to reasonable thinking, the government needs to pass civil rights laws like this so people can get the rights they friggin' deserve as an American. so, when the supreme court says fuck gay marriage and affirms the ban on gay marriage, you are cool with that system? or is it only if the supreme court says yay gay marriage and affirms the appellate decision?
Whether or not it gets approved doesn't really matter. The issue can't be trusted with the populace, because if the populace was majority for someone's civil rights, it wouldn't really be a civil rights issue would it... it would have already been put into law.
Edited for clarity
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On March 03 2013 08:10 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 07:59 Zooper31 wrote:On March 03 2013 07:35 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 07:09 Zooper31 wrote:On March 03 2013 06:59 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 06:35 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 06:30 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 06:16 hypercube wrote:On March 03 2013 06:10 electronic voyeur wrote:
He has unfortunately flip-flopped on a lot of issues. He didn't flip-flop, his views have evolved. + Show Spoiler +Although some conservatives might claim that they were intelligently designed by his advisors to maximize his re-election chances. anyone with half a brain would claim that..... you dont go from saying marriage is between a man and a woman to gay marriage is perfectly alright at his age.... Unfortunately, gay marriage is about as divisive an issue as there is in America right now, so it's simply not something he could support in his first term. However, "don't ask, don't tell" was repealed during his first term. If you've listened to him talk, it's pretty clear that he supports gay rights, but he can't do things by himself and needs the support of the other politicians in Washington. so he lied to us his first term? And this surprises you? Are you really that ignorant to think no politician lies to us? He always supported gay rights. He just didn't have the liberty to openly admit his full beliefs about gay marriage without it hurting him more than helping him, so he kept quiet about it. Now people are more enlightened and more tolerant of others rights and beliefs and it is safe to say what he actually wants to say about the matter. You could compare it to people who were against slavery back when it was in full force. You couldn't outright say so otherwise you'd be punished and treated badly. im not sure why you would defend obama for being a liar--and i am surprised that he would outright lie. i would prefer someone who sticks to their principles than a liar. and why do people keep saying he kept quiet? he came straight out and said marriage was between a man and woman. he has flip-flopped on this issue. Because I feel the lie was needed for the greater good. I just found it kinda stupid you were surprised/upset that he lied, hes a politician... i am sad that you are so disenfranchised with the system. i do not expect politicians to blatantly lie to me. i expect them to be wishy-washy, refuse to take positions and deflect. i dont expect them to say marriage doesnt include gays and then say it does, or say marriage should be decided by states and then say fuck the states, federal gov't bitches! i understand why people are cool with what obama is doing because it reflects their own belief that gay marriage should be allowed (also my belief), but i think you guys should think for a second how fucking horrible it is that a politician blatantly misled everyone.... if a corporation did this the fucking internet would be ablaze with criticism, but because it reflects their own beliefs---its cool.
Deflecting a question or simply not answering it is just as bad as lying imo. Either way you are correct, I'm just happy he's backing gay marriage regardless of what he said in the past or not.
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On March 03 2013 08:14 Kerwin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 08:12 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 08:10 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 08:00 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 07:56 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 07:48 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 07:42 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 07:33 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 07:23 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 06:59 dAPhREAk wrote:
[quote]
so he lied to us his first term? I think you'd be hard pressed to find a quote from Obama saying he was against gay marriage. You'd be more likely to find him skirting the issue or saying something closer to "not right now". Edit: Also, a big reason conservatives want to keep the issue open is that it is a huge way to drive the common folk to the polls. The common people may not know much about politics, but they know the bible tells them gay people are evil. He said, "I personally believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. But I also agree with most Americans, including Vice President Cheney and over 2,000 religious leaders of all different beliefs, that decisions about marriage should be left to the states as they always have been." http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/05/09/11623172-the-evolution-of-obamas-stance-on-gay-marriage?lite Saying he personally believes that marriage is between a man and a woman is not a political stance on gay rights, when in the next statement he says who he think should be making these decisions. That is not a lie. You can not practice something but believe others should be able to practice it. This was him deflecting the issue by saying it's not an issue he believes he should have to legislate on. you do know he is saying that it shouldnt be left up to the states now, right? You do realize that making a change in his stance does not constitute lying? My personal belief is that he had to skirt the issue in the debate in order to get elected. But he didn't lie in the debate. As a lawyer you consider all angles to a case. In the debate he was largely talking about a social issue. But in this case (since it's being taken to the supreme court) it's being viewed as a civil rights issue. Civil rights issues SHOULD NOT be voted on by the populace. Civil rights issues need to go before the Supreme Court. so instead of millions of people deciding what is best for the populace, a few old ass people should decide what is best for the populace. gotcha. whether he lied or not (debatable), he is a flip-flopper. Dude... how many times (in history ever...) have the millions of people ever been right about anything? Every civil rights movement in America has at first been opposed by the majority and slowly later generations except it. Unless you feel like waiting for 50-something years for the populace to catch up to reasonable thinking, the government needs to pass civil rights laws like this so people can get the rights they friggin' deserve as an American. so, when the supreme court says fuck gay marriage and affirms the ban on gay marriage, you are cool with that system? or is it only if the supreme court says yay gay marriage and affirms the appellate decision? Whether or not it gets approved doesn't really matter. The issue can't be trusted with the populace, because if the populace was majority for someone's civil rights, it wouldn't really be a civil rights issue would it... it would have already been put into law.
*cough* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plessy_v._Ferguson
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On March 03 2013 08:12 dAPhREAk wrote:
so, when the supreme court says fuck gay marriage and affirms the ban on gay marriage, you are cool with that system?
I'm not cool with it, but it's still better than not having that potential check on states' power.
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On March 03 2013 08:18 rusedeguerre wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 08:14 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 08:12 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 08:10 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 08:00 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 07:56 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 07:48 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 07:42 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 07:33 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 07:23 Kerwin wrote:
[quote]
I think you'd be hard pressed to find a quote from Obama saying he was against gay marriage. You'd be more likely to find him skirting the issue or saying something closer to "not right now".
Edit: Also, a big reason conservatives want to keep the issue open is that it is a huge way to drive the common folk to the polls. The common people may not know much about politics, but they know the bible tells them gay people are evil. He said, "I personally believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. But I also agree with most Americans, including Vice President Cheney and over 2,000 religious leaders of all different beliefs, that decisions about marriage should be left to the states as they always have been." http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/05/09/11623172-the-evolution-of-obamas-stance-on-gay-marriage?lite Saying he personally believes that marriage is between a man and a woman is not a political stance on gay rights, when in the next statement he says who he think should be making these decisions. That is not a lie. You can not practice something but believe others should be able to practice it. This was him deflecting the issue by saying it's not an issue he believes he should have to legislate on. you do know he is saying that it shouldnt be left up to the states now, right? You do realize that making a change in his stance does not constitute lying? My personal belief is that he had to skirt the issue in the debate in order to get elected. But he didn't lie in the debate. As a lawyer you consider all angles to a case. In the debate he was largely talking about a social issue. But in this case (since it's being taken to the supreme court) it's being viewed as a civil rights issue. Civil rights issues SHOULD NOT be voted on by the populace. Civil rights issues need to go before the Supreme Court. so instead of millions of people deciding what is best for the populace, a few old ass people should decide what is best for the populace. gotcha. whether he lied or not (debatable), he is a flip-flopper. Dude... how many times (in history ever...) have the millions of people ever been right about anything? Every civil rights movement in America has at first been opposed by the majority and slowly later generations except it. Unless you feel like waiting for 50-something years for the populace to catch up to reasonable thinking, the government needs to pass civil rights laws like this so people can get the rights they friggin' deserve as an American. so, when the supreme court says fuck gay marriage and affirms the ban on gay marriage, you are cool with that system? or is it only if the supreme court says yay gay marriage and affirms the appellate decision? Whether or not it gets approved doesn't really matter. The issue can't be trusted with the populace, because if the populace was majority for someone's civil rights, it wouldn't really be a civil rights issue would it... it would have already been put into law. *cough* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plessy_v._Ferguson
The populace got that one wrong before the supreme court did. :/
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On March 03 2013 08:00 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 07:56 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 07:48 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 07:42 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 07:33 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 07:23 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 06:59 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 06:35 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 06:30 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 06:16 hypercube wrote:[quote] He didn't flip-flop, his views have evolved. + Show Spoiler +Although some conservatives might claim that they were intelligently designed by his advisors to maximize his re-election chances. anyone with half a brain would claim that..... you dont go from saying marriage is between a man and a woman to gay marriage is perfectly alright at his age.... Unfortunately, gay marriage is about as divisive an issue as there is in America right now, so it's simply not something he could support in his first term. However, "don't ask, don't tell" was repealed during his first term. If you've listened to him talk, it's pretty clear that he supports gay rights, but he can't do things by himself and needs the support of the other politicians in Washington. so he lied to us his first term? I think you'd be hard pressed to find a quote from Obama saying he was against gay marriage. You'd be more likely to find him skirting the issue or saying something closer to "not right now". Edit: Also, a big reason conservatives want to keep the issue open is that it is a huge way to drive the common folk to the polls. The common people may not know much about politics, but they know the bible tells them gay people are evil. He said, "I personally believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. But I also agree with most Americans, including Vice President Cheney and over 2,000 religious leaders of all different beliefs, that decisions about marriage should be left to the states as they always have been." http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/05/09/11623172-the-evolution-of-obamas-stance-on-gay-marriage?lite Saying he personally believes that marriage is between a man and a woman is not a political stance on gay rights, when in the next statement he says who he think should be making these decisions. That is not a lie. You can not practice something but believe others should be able to practice it. This was him deflecting the issue by saying it's not an issue he believes he should have to legislate on. you do know he is saying that it shouldnt be left up to the states now, right? You do realize that making a change in his stance does not constitute lying? My personal belief is that he had to skirt the issue in the debate in order to get elected. But he didn't lie in the debate. As a lawyer you consider all angles to a case. In the debate he was largely talking about a social issue. But in this case (since it's being taken to the supreme court) it's being viewed as a civil rights issue. Civil rights issues SHOULD NOT be voted on by the populace. Civil rights issues need to go before the Supreme Court. so instead of millions of people deciding what is best for the populace, a few old ass people should decide what is best for the populace. gotcha. whether he lied or not (debatable), he is a flip-flopper.
You can call him a flip-flopper all you want, but it seems like at this point a majority of americans sees gay marriage as a right, while several years ago that was a minority. Obama's flip-flop pretty much happened once poll numbers started to show that majority. He seems to be doing exactly what the populace wants.
I don't get the debate in the first place. Gay marriage is a done deal in the US, 7/10 people that reach the voting age favor it and that percentage keeps going up, while 7/10 that die oppose it. If it doesn't happen now, it'll happen in 5 years and the dems have a social issue they can exploit in the meantime.
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On March 03 2013 08:26 Derez wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 08:00 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 07:56 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 07:48 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 07:42 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 07:33 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 07:23 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 06:59 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2013 06:35 Kerwin wrote:On March 03 2013 06:30 dAPhREAk wrote:
[quote]
anyone with half a brain would claim that..... you dont go from saying marriage is between a man and a woman to gay marriage is perfectly alright at his age.... Unfortunately, gay marriage is about as divisive an issue as there is in America right now, so it's simply not something he could support in his first term. However, "don't ask, don't tell" was repealed during his first term. If you've listened to him talk, it's pretty clear that he supports gay rights, but he can't do things by himself and needs the support of the other politicians in Washington. so he lied to us his first term? I think you'd be hard pressed to find a quote from Obama saying he was against gay marriage. You'd be more likely to find him skirting the issue or saying something closer to "not right now". Edit: Also, a big reason conservatives want to keep the issue open is that it is a huge way to drive the common folk to the polls. The common people may not know much about politics, but they know the bible tells them gay people are evil. He said, "I personally believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. But I also agree with most Americans, including Vice President Cheney and over 2,000 religious leaders of all different beliefs, that decisions about marriage should be left to the states as they always have been." http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/05/09/11623172-the-evolution-of-obamas-stance-on-gay-marriage?lite Saying he personally believes that marriage is between a man and a woman is not a political stance on gay rights, when in the next statement he says who he think should be making these decisions. That is not a lie. You can not practice something but believe others should be able to practice it. This was him deflecting the issue by saying it's not an issue he believes he should have to legislate on. you do know he is saying that it shouldnt be left up to the states now, right? You do realize that making a change in his stance does not constitute lying? My personal belief is that he had to skirt the issue in the debate in order to get elected. But he didn't lie in the debate. As a lawyer you consider all angles to a case. In the debate he was largely talking about a social issue. But in this case (since it's being taken to the supreme court) it's being viewed as a civil rights issue. Civil rights issues SHOULD NOT be voted on by the populace. Civil rights issues need to go before the Supreme Court. so instead of millions of people deciding what is best for the populace, a few old ass people should decide what is best for the populace. gotcha. whether he lied or not (debatable), he is a flip-flopper. You can call him a flip-flopper all you want, but it seems like at this point a majority of americans sees gay marriage as a right, while several years ago that was a minority. Obama's flip-flop pretty much happened once poll numbers started to show that majority. He seems to be doing exactly what the populace wants. I don't get the debate in the first place. Gay marriage is a done deal in the US, 7/10 people that reach the voting age favor it and that percentage keeps going up, while 7/10 that die oppose it. If it doesn't happen now, it'll happen in 5 years and the dems have a social issue they can exploit in the meantime.
what? a majority of california (one of the most liberal states in the nation) voted to ban gay marriage. how can you say a majority support gay marriage?
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