EPTOn February 20 2013 11:26 nomyx wrote:
If there is anything that could literally kill eSports, it's NK.
If there is anything that could literally kill eSports, it's NK.
I think you mean "balance patch"
North Korea says/does surprising and alarming thing - Page…
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Foblos
United States426 Posts
I think you mean "balance patch" | ||
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autoexec
United States530 Posts
...Well played | ||
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GhostKorean
United States2330 Posts
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
On February 20 2013 11:58 GhostKorean wrote: I was thinking if North Korea was to ever unify with South Korea, the US will have access to a border with China that's a big part of what the war was about in the first place... | ||
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GranDim
Canada1214 Posts
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Warlock40
601 Posts
On February 20 2013 11:58 GhostKorean wrote: I was thinking if North Korea was to ever unify with South Korea, the US will have access to a border with China Well, they've kind of had one since 2001. | ||
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AnachronisticAnarchy
United States2957 Posts
1: war is unavoidable 2: the general North Korean populace will resort to guerrilla warfare and kill thousands of innocents 3: a minority of the North Korean populace is not brainwashed 4: all weapons of mass destruction, nukes included, can be used if deemed wise would a war of indiscriminate genocide be a logical decision? If it is logical, can it be justified? Keep in mind that a war with North Korea would be among the bloodiest in history, no matter what choices we make. Polls: + Show Spoiler + Poll: Logical or illogical? Illogical (11) Logical (1) 12 total votes Your vote: Logical or illogical? | ||
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Meiya
Australia1169 Posts
It does bear mentioning that nearly half of the population of NK is supposedly employed by the military, however. Once again, the will of the population to resist will crumble with a combination of effective counter-intelligence efforts (propoganda leaflets and that sort of thing) and rapid defeat in direct armed confrontation with Western powers, which is guaranteed and will destroy their illusion of their country's invincibilty, once again similar to the collapse of German morale in WWII, which was actually quite solid throughout most of the war despite Germany fighting an unwinnable war and losing solidly from 1942 to 1945. But once again, the population of NK is even more naive and less durable than the population of WWII Germany, and the NK military is not the Wehrmacht: it will collapse quickly (think what happened to the Iraqi Military in 2003), and the shock of it will do a great deal to reduce civilian resistance. Of course this is all arguable, this is all my opinions based on study of the military and modern history, feel free to disagree. I certainly do not and would never think that 'indiscriminate genocide' of North Koreans is something that the West is stupid enough to resort to when so many resources and so much experience is available. EDIT: Just in regard to what I was saying with propoganda, the US/ROK/East Asian/UN coalition that would no doubt mobilise to fight NK if war became unavoidable would spend some time weakening the NK population's psychological resistance before any invasion, which is standard practice. Leaflet drops and the usual food deliveries and whatever other tricks psyops has up their sleeve these days would be somewhat suppressed by the North Koreans, but would probably also force the government to raise their oppression levels to 11, further increasing public discontent before any sort of military action. Once this coalition actually gets stuck in to direct military action, offering food and shelter to North Korean civilians resisting the invasion would probably do wonders for your average confused and starving North Korean. Desertion would most likely become a serious and even crippling issue for any organised resistance. | ||
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Seldentar
United States888 Posts
On February 20 2013 12:10 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Somewhat curious about you guys' opinions on this. Since North Korea has a largely brainwashed population, a war with NK would put us in a unique position where the line between civilian and soldier is blurred strongly. Given a situation where: 1: war is unavoidable 2: the general North Korean populace will resort to guerrilla warfare and kill thousands of innocents 3: a minority of the North Korean populace is not brainwashed 4: all weapons of mass destruction, nukes included, can be used if deemed wise would a war of indiscriminate genocide be a logical decision? If it is logical, can it be justified? Keep in mind that a war with North Korea would be among the bloodiest in history, no matter what choices we make. Polls: + Show Spoiler + Poll: Logical or illogical? Illogical (11) Logical (1) 12 total votes Your vote: Logical or illogical? Absolutely illogical and morally unjustifiable under just about any circumstances. Logged in just to stress this post. | ||
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slappy
United States1271 Posts
On February 20 2013 12:10 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Somewhat curious about you guys' opinions on this. Since North Korea has a largely brainwashed population, a war with NK would put us in a unique position where the line between civilian and soldier is blurred strongly. Given a situation where: 1: war is unavoidable 2: the general North Korean populace will resort to guerrilla warfare and kill thousands of innocents 3: a minority of the North Korean populace is not brainwashed 4: all weapons of mass destruction, nukes included, can be used if deemed wise would a war of indiscriminate genocide be a logical decision? If it is logical, can it be justified? Keep in mind that a war with North Korea would be among the bloodiest in history, no matter what choices we make. Polls: + Show Spoiler + Poll: Logical or illogical? Illogical (11) Logical (1) 12 total votes Your vote: Logical or illogical? I had quite the perspective changing experience while I was in South Korea. I was watching a world cup soccer game between North Korea and someone else (insignificant) with a South Korean friend of mine. Naturally, I was cheering for the other team- mostly because I wanted N.K. to lose because to me they're an antagonist in the story of our time. To my surprise, my friend was cheering for N.K. I asked why, bringing up the obvious tension between the two countries, and so wouldn't they be enemies? He said no. They are my brothers. We have the same blood and speak the same language. He said it makes him really sad that the 2 countries are in the situation they're in because all of the population in N.K. just has no choice and are being repressed. It was then that I realized it's really just the N.K. government that is the issue. My distaste for N.K. as a whole was suddenly replaced with a grudge against their government and a deep sorrow for the people who are being repressed. I can't say for sure, but I think the N.K. population are slowly figuring out the situation they are in. I heard rumors of riots, which of course the government would cover up and probably give death sentences to all those who participated. In regards to the current situation- anything that results in massive amounts N.K. citizens dying will be really sad. Of course if war is waged then militants will die, but I just wish there was a way to uproot the N.K. government without bloodshed. This is a different topic all together, but most of the S.K. people I've spoken with on the matter say they ultimately wish for reunification between the two countries. | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
On February 20 2013 12:10 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Somewhat curious about you guys' opinions on this. Since North Korea has a largely brainwashed population, a war with NK would put us in a unique position where the line between civilian and soldier is blurred strongly. Given a situation where: 1: war is unavoidable 2: the general North Korean populace will resort to guerrilla warfare and kill thousands of innocents 3: a minority of the North Korean populace is not brainwashed 4: all weapons of mass destruction, nukes included, can be used if deemed wise would a war of indiscriminate genocide be a logical decision? If it is logical, can it be justified? Keep in mind that a war with North Korea would be among the bloodiest in history, no matter what choices we make. Polls: + Show Spoiler + Poll: Logical or illogical? Illogical (11) Logical (1) 12 total votes Your vote: Logical or illogical? i personally dont think the brainwash effect is solid enough to cause mass rebellion to usa/sk. i think it can be resolved through awareness, education and sort of reverse propaganda. a lot of south korean stuff is already in circulation such as clothing, tv show/movie, cellphones (though illegal, black market exists). if people learn that they have been lied to, many might be able to move on, but this really depends on the aftermath of korean war 1.5 or economic take over/fall of kim regime. i think many north koreans see south koreans as brothers and that feeling is mutual. | ||
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Warlock40
601 Posts
On February 20 2013 12:10 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Somewhat curious about you guys' opinions on this. Since North Korea has a largely brainwashed population, a war with NK would put us in a unique position where the line between civilian and soldier is blurred strongly. Given a situation where: 1: war is unavoidable 2: the general North Korean populace will resort to guerrilla warfare and kill thousands of innocents 3: a minority of the North Korean populace is not brainwashed 4: all weapons of mass destruction, nukes included, can be used if deemed wise would a war of indiscriminate genocide be a logical decision? If it is logical, can it be justified? Keep in mind that a war with North Korea would be among the bloodiest in history, no matter what choices we make. Polls: + Show Spoiler + Poll: Logical or illogical? Illogical (11) Logical (1) 12 total votes Your vote: Logical or illogical? I'm all for hypothetical situations, and I'm all for discussions on utilitarian ethics, but you've stacked your hypothetical situation to the point where it has practically no bearing on reality and is not really useful to discuss at all. | ||
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Meiya
Australia1169 Posts
On February 20 2013 12:39 slappy wrote: ...Of course if war is waged then militants will die, but I just wish there was a way to uproot the N.K. government without bloodshed. This is a different topic all together, but most of the S.K. people I've spoken with on the matter say they ultimately wish for reunification between the two countries. That would be nice, though it is not possible. In fact, when you think about it every day the DPRK is in power brings bloodshed anyway. The onset of war will only radicalise the government further. On February 20 2013 12:39 jinorazi wrote: i personally dont think the brainwash effect is solid enough to cause mass rebellion to usa/sk. i think it can be resolved through awareness, education and sort of reverse propaganda... Yes, however if we look at recent history for examples of brainwashed populations it can be observed that the government will most likely arm its populace and organise them into partisan units, many of whom will fight. So while what you say is right it will definitely be necessary to kill civilians on some scale in a ground-based invasion of North Korea. And of course there is always the collateral damage associated with the force preservation tactics of Western democracies (ie. air strikes everywhere all the time). | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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Warlock40
601 Posts
Yes, however if we look at recent history for examples of brainwashed populations it can be observed that the government will most likely arm its populace and organise them into partisan units, many of whom will fight. So while what you say is right it will definitely be necessary to kill civilians on some scale in a ground-based invasion of North Korea. What examples are these? | ||
QuackPocketDuck
410 Posts
 fucking waste of space of a country with 0 contributions to the world from cultural or scientific point of view. | ||
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ETisME
12387 Posts
On February 20 2013 12:10 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Somewhat curious about you guys' opinions on this. Since North Korea has a largely brainwashed population, a war with NK would put us in a unique position where the line between civilian and soldier is blurred strongly. Given a situation where: 1: war is unavoidable 2: the general North Korean populace will resort to guerrilla warfare and kill thousands of innocents 3: a minority of the North Korean populace is not brainwashed 4: all weapons of mass destruction, nukes included, can be used if deemed wise would a war of indiscriminate genocide be a logical decision? If it is logical, can it be justified? Keep in mind that a war with North Korea would be among the bloodiest in history, no matter what choices we make. Polls: + Show Spoiler + Poll: Logical or illogical? Illogical (11) Logical (1) 12 total votes Your vote: Logical or illogical? what do you mean largely brainwashed population? A lot of NK people know their government is BS-ing because they can see the facts. The famine, not getting paid, facts not matching up with the news reported. You need to read some books about NK to really have some idea of the NK population. I feel like a lot of people in the thread have never really read anything about NK except the news Read some books on the history and culture and those who successfully ran away from NK. | ||
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tokicheese
Canada739 Posts
On February 20 2013 16:21 ETisME wrote: what do you mean largely brainwashed population? A lot of NK people know their government is BS-ing because they can see the facts. The famine, not getting paid, facts not matching up with the news reported. You need to read some books about NK to really have some idea of the NK population. I feel like a lot of people in the thread have never really read anything about NK except the news Read some books on the history and culture and those who successfully ran away from NK. The NK gov't tells the people that it is much worse outside NK and that they have to keep people from flooding in. There was a documentary that followed a western doctor in NK who treated the rural villagers of a disease that causes blindness and the first thing the patients would do after gaining sight is bow to the picture of Kim Jong Il. Obviously it could have been them doing it out of a fear but if you are fed a lie long enough it's hard to not have it become your reality. Especially if you are fed the lies from birth which only the very very old (who probably are already dead because of lack of the healthcare) would know the true past. It's hard to gauge the actual opinion of the North Koreans because the only people we can talk to are the people who left. They obviously were not happy there I'm sure some people genuinely love the Great Leader. This is like testing the outcome of an election by doing the survey at one parties convention. | ||
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Cambium
United States16368 Posts
On February 20 2013 16:21 ETisME wrote: what do you mean largely brainwashed population? A lot of NK people know their government is BS-ing because they can see the facts. The famine, not getting paid, facts not matching up with the news reported. You need to read some books about NK to really have some idea of the NK population. I feel like a lot of people in the thread have never really read anything about NK except the news Read some books on the history and culture and those who successfully ran away from NK. The population is largely brainwashed. Not sure what you classify as 'a lot', but I'm going to say those who 'know' are still definitely, by far, the minority. There are essentially two ways to discover these things: 1) Self-realization: basically some people just realize the lies of the government despite the propaganda. These are typically the intellectual elites, probably those who have good family history, privileged to be educated, and living in Pyongyang. 2) Contact with the outside world: either through illegal media (DVD, hacked TV and radio, pamphlets, etc.), words of mouths, or have been to China (some people go back and forth to trade goods). People in category 2 are typically very close to the border, namely living in, or near Chongji. Even after you realize the discrepancies, it's not like you can go around telling anyone about anything, as no one confides in anyone, so spreading of this information is very difficult. There's also no medium for information sharing. Letters are routinely inspected, and most people don't have access to telephone. Traveling between cities are largely prohibited unless you have travel permits, and transportation is lacking to begin with. Of all the books I've read, none suggest that 'a lot' of people know. + Show Spoiler [books and articles I've read] + Books I've read on North Korea:
Report by David Hawk: The Hidden Gulag And basically a ton of random articles for my senior year university report on the North Korean nuclear crisis. | ||
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oldgregg
New Zealand1176 Posts
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