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The take away from this is no one is wrong and the actions of both NK and the US are completely justified.
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On June 13 2018 08:03 Plansix wrote:
The take away from this is no one is wrong and the actions of both NK and the US are completely justified.
For someone completely missing the point on purpose I suppose that would be it. For those reading and comprehending it would be more along the lines of what I said and you ignored.
I was challenging the idea that the US is obviously morally and ethically superior to NK.
It's not, and the US is definitively worse (more damaging) as you've already acknowledged.
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On June 13 2018 08:00 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2018 07:20 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 13 2018 07:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 06:58 Plansix wrote:On June 13 2018 06:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 06:45 Plansix wrote:On June 13 2018 06:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 06:26 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On June 13 2018 06:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 06:16 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
[quote]
Every country has prisons. The US has more and the reasons people go are multifaceted. The War on Drugs was racially motivated and carried out by closet racists to break the PoC family and keep them from moving economically forward. A lot of broken homes were created and continue to be, because of it. Whereas, NK will lock you up for disagreeing with their views and whatever else they have going on in there.
The billionaires are free to do with their money as they feel. The US government cannot compel them to. The only way that gets fixed is to fix the tax code, which we both know will never happen. The US government can reduce aide to foreign nations and reduce the MIC, but we also know that won't happen any time soon.
The US is taken off of the world stage, how many civilians are killed? This is a sticky topic because it takes into account a lot of what-if statements or this-then-that statements. I would tread carefully.
I have never been to NK but from reports, the quality of life is about par for a mid-size city for the entire country of NK. When you're using human feces as fertilizer, it can't be all that great. I'm not sure what you're trying to say now? It seems you understand how people can think the gap between the two morally and ethically isn't that large even if you swallow the western propaganda about NK whole without any thought. I replied to each of your paragraphs. And of course I can understand how people see the gap isn't that large. I would think you of all people I've discussed with saw my perspective on a range of topics. But to tip the scale entirely onto the US because you have a grudge with how it dealt you a life, is disingenuous. Well the US is obviously worse because of the scale of our international destruction. When you limit "the bad stuff" to within the border and the last 10 years you can make the US look a little better. But of course we don't keep our horrific murderous rampages within our borders and we literally have ongoing conflicts from well over 10 years ago. Trying to reduce the US to it's domestic pacification of it's civilian population rather than the global exploitative horrors the US engages in to "secure" them is absurd. On June 13 2018 06:33 Plansix wrote:On June 13 2018 06:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 06:16 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
[quote]
Every country has prisons. The US has more and the reasons people go are multifaceted. The War on Drugs was racially motivated and carried out by closet racists to break the PoC family and keep them from moving economically forward. A lot of broken homes were created and continue to be, because of it. Whereas, NK will lock you up for disagreeing with their views and whatever else they have going on in there.
The billionaires are free to do with their money as they feel. The US government cannot compel them to. The only way that gets fixed is to fix the tax code, which we both know will never happen. The US government can reduce aide to foreign nations and reduce the MIC, but we also know that won't happen any time soon.
The US is taken off of the world stage, how many civilians are killed? This is a sticky topic because it takes into account a lot of what-if statements or this-then-that statements. I would tread carefully.
I have never been to NK but from reports, the quality of life is about par for a mid-size city for the entire country of NK. When you're using human feces as fertilizer, it can't be all that great. I'm not sure what you're trying to say now? It seems you understand how people can think the gap between the two morally and ethically isn't that large even if you swallow the western propaganda about NK whole without any thought. As opposed to believed you based on literally zero personal knowledge? Don’t believe Western Propaganda, believe me, the guy who has an ax to grind and has also never been to North Korea. There are plenty of independent groups that have reported on NK. There was that famous video camera recording that was smuggled out of the country like a decade ago. It sucks there, like a whole lot. The citizens are physically shorter than South Koreans due to malnutrition. I watched a public execution what in an apartment complex for some unknown reason. They detained and held as US citizen for stealing a poster. They didn’t even lie about it. He came back with brain damage and died. Their leader executed people with an anti aircraft guns. You can go watch videos if you want, they exist. The assuming that we are all uneducated on the topic and ill information you simply believing to make your point. We are not. In the US, we do not fear execution by anti aircraft gun in this country. You realize this argument is predicated on a "NK does it to it's own people, so that's way more messed up than the US doing it to many more people around the world" Remember Abu Ghraib, last I checked the war criminal behind that was part of the #Resistance getting hugs from libs. Literally both parties courted Henry Kissinger because they'd rather have his endorsement than throw him in the Hague. Uninformed was better than the alternative of just automatically assuming it was the racist argument it was about how the people the US slaughters matter less. You realize your entire argument is whataboutism, right? I know you cannot stand that word, but it your go to when your arguments run out of steam. We cannot be critical about NK in this thread without first addressing every single wrongdoing the the US does in the world. Every time. Your entire argument isn't that NK is good, it is that the US is equally bad or worse than NK due to size and its own actions. Even if we admit you are correct and attempt to move on with discussion about NK, you will return with the same argument the instant we bring up a new critique of NK. If you have a problem with the US and its horrible activities around the world, I would suggest making a thread about US foreign policy and its wrong. It is a worthy topic. But not at the expense of talking about NK on its own. The word is fine, you not understanding what it means is the problem I have with your use. I mean no, you really shouldn't be critiquing NK until you get the US's shit together. We're doing exponentially more damage to people around the world and acting holier than thou on places like NK is obnoxiously representative of US exceptionalism in it's worst renditions. imo. But it's not meant to be whataboutism, it's meant to try to turn your attention to the context of their actions. Otherwise people go around repeating the propaganda about a madman ready to shoot off missiles for no reason, as if NK is completely unhinged while the US is just trying to bring peace to the peninsula. The US is doing more damage to the world due to its size and military dominance. That is a fact. Now on to the facts about NK's abuse of its people, which are a separate topic. Surely sanctions and western influence has nothing to do with it right? NK just wants to build nukes for fun, not out of fear that a western imperialist force would do what it's done in dozens of countries that oppose the US and capitalism in general. You know where they repeatedly try to assassinate the leaders, sponsor coups, and sometimes just outright bomb your country into submission. Surely crippling sanctions, a life or death need for nuclear weapons in self-defense, and a lack of natural resources/arable land (sometimes intentionally destroyed during the Korean war by western interests) have nothing to do with the conditions on the ground. It's all "How NK abuses it's people" and not about the role the US plays in that, how it compares to abuses committed by the country talking trash, or anything other than how bad NK is because NK "did some crazy thing" which should probably just be the new title for the US politics thread. "United States says/does surprising and alarming thing" So basically in your world view North Korea is an innocent party? No. They are simply a party. Like the US is. I was challenging the idea that the US is obviously morally and ethically superior to NK.
By sheer value of numbers, this might be a possible argument?
But by the same argument, it would also be said that a billionaire is morally and ethically superior by an impenetrable margin to a soup kitchen volunteer.
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On June 13 2018 08:46 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2018 08:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 07:20 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 13 2018 07:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 06:58 Plansix wrote:On June 13 2018 06:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 06:45 Plansix wrote:On June 13 2018 06:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 06:26 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On June 13 2018 06:21 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
I'm not sure what you're trying to say now?
It seems you understand how people can think the gap between the two morally and ethically isn't that large even if you swallow the western propaganda about NK whole without any thought. I replied to each of your paragraphs. And of course I can understand how people see the gap isn't that large. I would think you of all people I've discussed with saw my perspective on a range of topics. But to tip the scale entirely onto the US because you have a grudge with how it dealt you a life, is disingenuous. Well the US is obviously worse because of the scale of our international destruction. When you limit "the bad stuff" to within the border and the last 10 years you can make the US look a little better. But of course we don't keep our horrific murderous rampages within our borders and we literally have ongoing conflicts from well over 10 years ago. Trying to reduce the US to it's domestic pacification of it's civilian population rather than the global exploitative horrors the US engages in to "secure" them is absurd. On June 13 2018 06:33 Plansix wrote:On June 13 2018 06:21 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
I'm not sure what you're trying to say now?
It seems you understand how people can think the gap between the two morally and ethically isn't that large even if you swallow the western propaganda about NK whole without any thought. As opposed to believed you based on literally zero personal knowledge? Don’t believe Western Propaganda, believe me, the guy who has an ax to grind and has also never been to North Korea. There are plenty of independent groups that have reported on NK. There was that famous video camera recording that was smuggled out of the country like a decade ago. It sucks there, like a whole lot. The citizens are physically shorter than South Koreans due to malnutrition. I watched a public execution what in an apartment complex for some unknown reason. They detained and held as US citizen for stealing a poster. They didn’t even lie about it. He came back with brain damage and died. Their leader executed people with an anti aircraft guns. You can go watch videos if you want, they exist. The assuming that we are all uneducated on the topic and ill information you simply believing to make your point. We are not. In the US, we do not fear execution by anti aircraft gun in this country. You realize this argument is predicated on a "NK does it to it's own people, so that's way more messed up than the US doing it to many more people around the world" Remember Abu Ghraib, last I checked the war criminal behind that was part of the #Resistance getting hugs from libs. Literally both parties courted Henry Kissinger because they'd rather have his endorsement than throw him in the Hague. Uninformed was better than the alternative of just automatically assuming it was the racist argument it was about how the people the US slaughters matter less. You realize your entire argument is whataboutism, right? I know you cannot stand that word, but it your go to when your arguments run out of steam. We cannot be critical about NK in this thread without first addressing every single wrongdoing the the US does in the world. Every time. Your entire argument isn't that NK is good, it is that the US is equally bad or worse than NK due to size and its own actions. Even if we admit you are correct and attempt to move on with discussion about NK, you will return with the same argument the instant we bring up a new critique of NK. If you have a problem with the US and its horrible activities around the world, I would suggest making a thread about US foreign policy and its wrong. It is a worthy topic. But not at the expense of talking about NK on its own. The word is fine, you not understanding what it means is the problem I have with your use. I mean no, you really shouldn't be critiquing NK until you get the US's shit together. We're doing exponentially more damage to people around the world and acting holier than thou on places like NK is obnoxiously representative of US exceptionalism in it's worst renditions. imo. But it's not meant to be whataboutism, it's meant to try to turn your attention to the context of their actions. Otherwise people go around repeating the propaganda about a madman ready to shoot off missiles for no reason, as if NK is completely unhinged while the US is just trying to bring peace to the peninsula. The US is doing more damage to the world due to its size and military dominance. That is a fact. Now on to the facts about NK's abuse of its people, which are a separate topic. Surely sanctions and western influence has nothing to do with it right? NK just wants to build nukes for fun, not out of fear that a western imperialist force would do what it's done in dozens of countries that oppose the US and capitalism in general. You know where they repeatedly try to assassinate the leaders, sponsor coups, and sometimes just outright bomb your country into submission. Surely crippling sanctions, a life or death need for nuclear weapons in self-defense, and a lack of natural resources/arable land (sometimes intentionally destroyed during the Korean war by western interests) have nothing to do with the conditions on the ground. It's all "How NK abuses it's people" and not about the role the US plays in that, how it compares to abuses committed by the country talking trash, or anything other than how bad NK is because NK "did some crazy thing" which should probably just be the new title for the US politics thread. "United States says/does surprising and alarming thing" So basically in your world view North Korea is an innocent party? No. They are simply a party. Like the US is. I was challenging the idea that the US is obviously morally and ethically superior to NK. By sheer value of numbers, this might be a possible argument? But by the same argument, it would also be said that a billionaire is morally and ethically superior by an impenetrable margin to a soup kitchen volunteer.
It's not a 'possible argument' it's an irrefutable fact.
no it really wouldn't though. Being a billionaire in itself is exploitative, being a soup kitchen volunteer isn't.
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On June 13 2018 08:56 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2018 08:46 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 13 2018 08:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 07:20 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 13 2018 07:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 06:58 Plansix wrote:On June 13 2018 06:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 06:45 Plansix wrote:On June 13 2018 06:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 06:26 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
[quote]
I replied to each of your paragraphs. And of course I can understand how people see the gap isn't that large. I would think you of all people I've discussed with saw my perspective on a range of topics. But to tip the scale entirely onto the US because you have a grudge with how it dealt you a life, is disingenuous. Well the US is obviously worse because of the scale of our international destruction. When you limit "the bad stuff" to within the border and the last 10 years you can make the US look a little better. But of course we don't keep our horrific murderous rampages within our borders and we literally have ongoing conflicts from well over 10 years ago. Trying to reduce the US to it's domestic pacification of it's civilian population rather than the global exploitative horrors the US engages in to "secure" them is absurd. On June 13 2018 06:33 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
As opposed to believed you based on literally zero personal knowledge? Don’t believe Western Propaganda, believe me, the guy who has an ax to grind and has also never been to North Korea.
There are plenty of independent groups that have reported on NK. There was that famous video camera recording that was smuggled out of the country like a decade ago. It sucks there, like a whole lot. The citizens are physically shorter than South Koreans due to malnutrition. I watched a public execution what in an apartment complex for some unknown reason. They detained and held as US citizen for stealing a poster. They didn’t even lie about it. He came back with brain damage and died. Their leader executed people with an anti aircraft guns. You can go watch videos if you want, they exist.
The assuming that we are all uneducated on the topic and ill information you simply believing to make your point. We are not. In the US, we do not fear execution by anti aircraft gun in this country.
You realize this argument is predicated on a "NK does it to it's own people, so that's way more messed up than the US doing it to many more people around the world" Remember Abu Ghraib, last I checked the war criminal behind that was part of the #Resistance getting hugs from libs. Literally both parties courted Henry Kissinger because they'd rather have his endorsement than throw him in the Hague. Uninformed was better than the alternative of just automatically assuming it was the racist argument it was about how the people the US slaughters matter less. You realize your entire argument is whataboutism, right? I know you cannot stand that word, but it your go to when your arguments run out of steam. We cannot be critical about NK in this thread without first addressing every single wrongdoing the the US does in the world. Every time. Your entire argument isn't that NK is good, it is that the US is equally bad or worse than NK due to size and its own actions. Even if we admit you are correct and attempt to move on with discussion about NK, you will return with the same argument the instant we bring up a new critique of NK. If you have a problem with the US and its horrible activities around the world, I would suggest making a thread about US foreign policy and its wrong. It is a worthy topic. But not at the expense of talking about NK on its own. The word is fine, you not understanding what it means is the problem I have with your use. I mean no, you really shouldn't be critiquing NK until you get the US's shit together. We're doing exponentially more damage to people around the world and acting holier than thou on places like NK is obnoxiously representative of US exceptionalism in it's worst renditions. imo. But it's not meant to be whataboutism, it's meant to try to turn your attention to the context of their actions. Otherwise people go around repeating the propaganda about a madman ready to shoot off missiles for no reason, as if NK is completely unhinged while the US is just trying to bring peace to the peninsula. The US is doing more damage to the world due to its size and military dominance. That is a fact. Now on to the facts about NK's abuse of its people, which are a separate topic. Surely sanctions and western influence has nothing to do with it right? NK just wants to build nukes for fun, not out of fear that a western imperialist force would do what it's done in dozens of countries that oppose the US and capitalism in general. You know where they repeatedly try to assassinate the leaders, sponsor coups, and sometimes just outright bomb your country into submission. Surely crippling sanctions, a life or death need for nuclear weapons in self-defense, and a lack of natural resources/arable land (sometimes intentionally destroyed during the Korean war by western interests) have nothing to do with the conditions on the ground. It's all "How NK abuses it's people" and not about the role the US plays in that, how it compares to abuses committed by the country talking trash, or anything other than how bad NK is because NK "did some crazy thing" which should probably just be the new title for the US politics thread. "United States says/does surprising and alarming thing" So basically in your world view North Korea is an innocent party? No. They are simply a party. Like the US is. I was challenging the idea that the US is obviously morally and ethically superior to NK. By sheer value of numbers, this might be a possible argument? But by the same argument, it would also be said that a billionaire is morally and ethically superior by an impenetrable margin to a soup kitchen volunteer. It's not a 'possible argument' it's an irrefutable fact. "If you mean by sheer value of human life lost or irreparably damaged, sure" isn't a very good starting point for arguing it's not worse. no it really wouldn't though. Being a billionaire in itself is exploitative, being a soup kitchen volunteer isn't.
By sheer value of human life helped or repaired, a billionaire will have done more than a soup kitchen volunteer. Which is my point.
The US has a far greater scope of power across the world. And the US has done a lot of damage, and also a lot of good. What value of each you assess may vary, but North Korea within the scope of their reach does a lot less good.
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On June 13 2018 09:02 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2018 08:56 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 08:46 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 13 2018 08:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 07:20 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 13 2018 07:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 06:58 Plansix wrote:On June 13 2018 06:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 06:45 Plansix wrote:On June 13 2018 06:33 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Well the US is obviously worse because of the scale of our international destruction. When you limit "the bad stuff" to within the border and the last 10 years you can make the US look a little better. But of course we don't keep our horrific murderous rampages within our borders and we literally have ongoing conflicts from well over 10 years ago.
Trying to reduce the US to it's domestic pacification of it's civilian population rather than the global exploitative horrors the US engages in to "secure" them is absurd.
[quote]
You realize this argument is predicated on a "NK does it to it's own people, so that's way more messed up than the US doing it to many more people around the world" Remember Abu Ghraib, last I checked the war criminal behind that was part of the #Resistance getting hugs from libs.
Literally both parties courted Henry Kissinger because they'd rather have his endorsement than throw him in the Hague.
Uninformed was better than the alternative of just automatically assuming it was the racist argument it was about how the people the US slaughters matter less.
You realize your entire argument is whataboutism, right? I know you cannot stand that word, but it your go to when your arguments run out of steam. We cannot be critical about NK in this thread without first addressing every single wrongdoing the the US does in the world. Every time. Your entire argument isn't that NK is good, it is that the US is equally bad or worse than NK due to size and its own actions. Even if we admit you are correct and attempt to move on with discussion about NK, you will return with the same argument the instant we bring up a new critique of NK. If you have a problem with the US and its horrible activities around the world, I would suggest making a thread about US foreign policy and its wrong. It is a worthy topic. But not at the expense of talking about NK on its own. The word is fine, you not understanding what it means is the problem I have with your use. I mean no, you really shouldn't be critiquing NK until you get the US's shit together. We're doing exponentially more damage to people around the world and acting holier than thou on places like NK is obnoxiously representative of US exceptionalism in it's worst renditions. imo. But it's not meant to be whataboutism, it's meant to try to turn your attention to the context of their actions. Otherwise people go around repeating the propaganda about a madman ready to shoot off missiles for no reason, as if NK is completely unhinged while the US is just trying to bring peace to the peninsula. The US is doing more damage to the world due to its size and military dominance. That is a fact. Now on to the facts about NK's abuse of its people, which are a separate topic. Surely sanctions and western influence has nothing to do with it right? NK just wants to build nukes for fun, not out of fear that a western imperialist force would do what it's done in dozens of countries that oppose the US and capitalism in general. You know where they repeatedly try to assassinate the leaders, sponsor coups, and sometimes just outright bomb your country into submission. Surely crippling sanctions, a life or death need for nuclear weapons in self-defense, and a lack of natural resources/arable land (sometimes intentionally destroyed during the Korean war by western interests) have nothing to do with the conditions on the ground. It's all "How NK abuses it's people" and not about the role the US plays in that, how it compares to abuses committed by the country talking trash, or anything other than how bad NK is because NK "did some crazy thing" which should probably just be the new title for the US politics thread. "United States says/does surprising and alarming thing" So basically in your world view North Korea is an innocent party? No. They are simply a party. Like the US is. I was challenging the idea that the US is obviously morally and ethically superior to NK. By sheer value of numbers, this might be a possible argument? But by the same argument, it would also be said that a billionaire is morally and ethically superior by an impenetrable margin to a soup kitchen volunteer. It's not a 'possible argument' it's an irrefutable fact. "If you mean by sheer value of human life lost or irreparably damaged, sure" isn't a very good starting point for arguing it's not worse. no it really wouldn't though. Being a billionaire in itself is exploitative, being a soup kitchen volunteer isn't. By sheer value of human life helped or repaired, a billionaire will have done more than a soup kitchen volunteer. Which is my point. The US has a far greater scope of power across the world. And the US has done a lot of damage, and also a lot of good. What value of each you assess may vary, but North Korea within the scope of their reach does a lot less good.
No they wont. They will have extracted the surplus value added by the workers who created it and given fractions of it back. They will have perpetuated countless exploitative practices in business and politics protecting their wealth and preventing it from going anywhere they don't think will benefit them personally while amassing as much as they can because they are addicts.
Addicts often end up in a place where they are willing to do anything to get more, even if that means starving Yemeni kids, cozying up with SA and ethnic cleansing efforts in Israel, and any of the most horrible stuff you can imagine NK doing.
They have steadily resisted US imperialism for decades despite the best efforts of basically the entire west behind the US's lead. That's more good than most countries can lay claim to, so I disagree with your entire argument.
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You can argue the billionaire point all you want. The message is the same. If you're deciding morality purely by "sheer value" of effected life, then your morality scale ends up looking ridiculous. Like a murderer being more moral than Gandhi or MLK, for other fun examples.
And the way you talk about North Korea, I'm not sure if you actually believe there is no international reason for other countries to treat them as aggressive enemies?
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On June 13 2018 09:26 WolfintheSheep wrote:
You can argue the billionaire point all you want. The message is the same. If you're deciding morality purely by "sheer value" of effected life, then your morality scale ends up looking ridiculous. Like a murderer being more moral than Gandhi or MLK, for other fun examples.
And the way you talk about North Korea, I'm not sure if you actually believe there is no international reason for other countries to treat them as aggressive enemies?
I don't really see any counterargument to billionaires being net exploiters, not 'moral actors' that do good like a soup kitchen worker or MLK or Ghandi (not that any of them are perfect beings). Billionaires exploitative addicts that need help, not more money. I'm not sure you understand the argument at all based on your inexplicable example of a murderer being more moral than MLK though.
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On June 13 2018 09:50 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2018 09:26 WolfintheSheep wrote:
You can argue the billionaire point all you want. The message is the same. If you're deciding morality purely by "sheer value" of effected life, then your morality scale ends up looking ridiculous. Like a murderer being more moral than Gandhi or MLK, for other fun examples.
And the way you talk about North Korea, I'm not sure if you actually believe there is no international reason for other countries to treat them as aggressive enemies? I don't really see any counterargument to billionaires being net exploiters, not 'good doers'. I'm not sure you understand the argument at all based on your inexplicable example of a murderer being more moral than MLK though.
Sheer value of life is sheer value of life. How else are you comparing a person who kills a single person to people responsible for more?
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On June 13 2018 09:52 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2018 09:50 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 09:26 WolfintheSheep wrote:
You can argue the billionaire point all you want. The message is the same. If you're deciding morality purely by "sheer value" of effected life, then your morality scale ends up looking ridiculous. Like a murderer being more moral than Gandhi or MLK, for other fun examples.
And the way you talk about North Korea, I'm not sure if you actually believe there is no international reason for other countries to treat them as aggressive enemies? I don't really see any counterargument to billionaires being net exploiters, not 'good doers'. I'm not sure you understand the argument at all based on your inexplicable example of a murderer being more moral than MLK though. Sheer value of life is sheer value of life. How else are you comparing a person who kills a single person to people responsible for more?
Resisting US imperialism will cost many lives, that doesn't make it an immoral act. Exploiting people to hoard wealth is inherently immoral and destructive.
You definitely don't understand the argument.
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On June 13 2018 09:53 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2018 09:52 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 13 2018 09:50 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 09:26 WolfintheSheep wrote:
You can argue the billionaire point all you want. The message is the same. If you're deciding morality purely by "sheer value" of effected life, then your morality scale ends up looking ridiculous. Like a murderer being more moral than Gandhi or MLK, for other fun examples.
And the way you talk about North Korea, I'm not sure if you actually believe there is no international reason for other countries to treat them as aggressive enemies? I don't really see any counterargument to billionaires being net exploiters, not 'good doers'. I'm not sure you understand the argument at all based on your inexplicable example of a murderer being more moral than MLK though. Sheer value of life is sheer value of life. How else are you comparing a person who kills a single person to people responsible for more? Resisting US imperialism will cost many lives, that doesn't make it an immoral act. Exploiting people to hoard wealth is inherently immoral and destructive. You definitely don't understand the argument.
Okay, thanks for clearing that up. So you do believe that North Korea is a completely moral actor?
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On June 13 2018 09:57 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2018 09:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 09:52 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 13 2018 09:50 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 09:26 WolfintheSheep wrote:
You can argue the billionaire point all you want. The message is the same. If you're deciding morality purely by "sheer value" of effected life, then your morality scale ends up looking ridiculous. Like a murderer being more moral than Gandhi or MLK, for other fun examples.
And the way you talk about North Korea, I'm not sure if you actually believe there is no international reason for other countries to treat them as aggressive enemies? I don't really see any counterargument to billionaires being net exploiters, not 'good doers'. I'm not sure you understand the argument at all based on your inexplicable example of a murderer being more moral than MLK though. Sheer value of life is sheer value of life. How else are you comparing a person who kills a single person to people responsible for more? Resisting US imperialism will cost many lives, that doesn't make it an immoral act. Exploiting people to hoard wealth is inherently immoral and destructive. You definitely don't understand the argument. Okay, thanks for clearing that up. So you do believe that North Korea is a completely moral actor?
No. It's easier to understand an argument when you read it instead of imagining it yourself.
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On June 13 2018 09:58 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2018 09:57 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 13 2018 09:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 09:52 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 13 2018 09:50 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 09:26 WolfintheSheep wrote:
You can argue the billionaire point all you want. The message is the same. If you're deciding morality purely by "sheer value" of effected life, then your morality scale ends up looking ridiculous. Like a murderer being more moral than Gandhi or MLK, for other fun examples.
And the way you talk about North Korea, I'm not sure if you actually believe there is no international reason for other countries to treat them as aggressive enemies? I don't really see any counterargument to billionaires being net exploiters, not 'good doers'. I'm not sure you understand the argument at all based on your inexplicable example of a murderer being more moral than MLK though. Sheer value of life is sheer value of life. How else are you comparing a person who kills a single person to people responsible for more? Resisting US imperialism will cost many lives, that doesn't make it an immoral act. Exploiting people to hoard wealth is inherently immoral and destructive. You definitely don't understand the argument. Okay, thanks for clearing that up. So you do believe that North Korea is a completely moral actor? No. It's easier to understand an argument when you read it instead of imagining it yourself.
Well then I don't know why you keep bringing up "US imperialism" like that's the only thing relevant to North Korea.
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On June 13 2018 10:19 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2018 09:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 09:57 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 13 2018 09:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 09:52 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 13 2018 09:50 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 09:26 WolfintheSheep wrote:
You can argue the billionaire point all you want. The message is the same. If you're deciding morality purely by "sheer value" of effected life, then your morality scale ends up looking ridiculous. Like a murderer being more moral than Gandhi or MLK, for other fun examples.
And the way you talk about North Korea, I'm not sure if you actually believe there is no international reason for other countries to treat them as aggressive enemies? I don't really see any counterargument to billionaires being net exploiters, not 'good doers'. I'm not sure you understand the argument at all based on your inexplicable example of a murderer being more moral than MLK though. Sheer value of life is sheer value of life. How else are you comparing a person who kills a single person to people responsible for more? Resisting US imperialism will cost many lives, that doesn't make it an immoral act. Exploiting people to hoard wealth is inherently immoral and destructive. You definitely don't understand the argument. Okay, thanks for clearing that up. So you do believe that North Korea is a completely moral actor? No. It's easier to understand an argument when you read it instead of imagining it yourself. Well then I don't know why you keep bringing up "US imperialism" like that's the only thing relevant to North Korea.
I've established that you don't understand what I'm arguing. Are you asking me to try to explain it to you again?
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On June 13 2018 10:27 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2018 10:19 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 13 2018 09:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 09:57 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 13 2018 09:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 09:52 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 13 2018 09:50 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 09:26 WolfintheSheep wrote:
You can argue the billionaire point all you want. The message is the same. If you're deciding morality purely by "sheer value" of effected life, then your morality scale ends up looking ridiculous. Like a murderer being more moral than Gandhi or MLK, for other fun examples.
And the way you talk about North Korea, I'm not sure if you actually believe there is no international reason for other countries to treat them as aggressive enemies? I don't really see any counterargument to billionaires being net exploiters, not 'good doers'. I'm not sure you understand the argument at all based on your inexplicable example of a murderer being more moral than MLK though. Sheer value of life is sheer value of life. How else are you comparing a person who kills a single person to people responsible for more? Resisting US imperialism will cost many lives, that doesn't make it an immoral act. Exploiting people to hoard wealth is inherently immoral and destructive. You definitely don't understand the argument. Okay, thanks for clearing that up. So you do believe that North Korea is a completely moral actor? No. It's easier to understand an argument when you read it instead of imagining it yourself. Well then I don't know why you keep bringing up "US imperialism" like that's the only thing relevant to North Korea. I've established that you don't understand what I'm arguing. Are you asking me to try to explain it to you again?
Yes please. In full this time, if you will.
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On June 13 2018 10:28 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2018 10:27 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 10:19 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 13 2018 09:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 09:57 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 13 2018 09:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 09:52 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 13 2018 09:50 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 09:26 WolfintheSheep wrote:
You can argue the billionaire point all you want. The message is the same. If you're deciding morality purely by "sheer value" of effected life, then your morality scale ends up looking ridiculous. Like a murderer being more moral than Gandhi or MLK, for other fun examples.
And the way you talk about North Korea, I'm not sure if you actually believe there is no international reason for other countries to treat them as aggressive enemies? I don't really see any counterargument to billionaires being net exploiters, not 'good doers'. I'm not sure you understand the argument at all based on your inexplicable example of a murderer being more moral than MLK though. Sheer value of life is sheer value of life. How else are you comparing a person who kills a single person to people responsible for more? Resisting US imperialism will cost many lives, that doesn't make it an immoral act. Exploiting people to hoard wealth is inherently immoral and destructive. You definitely don't understand the argument. Okay, thanks for clearing that up. So you do believe that North Korea is a completely moral actor? No. It's easier to understand an argument when you read it instead of imagining it yourself. Well then I don't know why you keep bringing up "US imperialism" like that's the only thing relevant to North Korea. I've established that you don't understand what I'm arguing. Are you asking me to try to explain it to you again? Yes please. In full this time, if you will.
The US is not obviously morally and ethically superior to North Korea. My support for this argument precedes this post but to summarize. One need only look at the massive destruction the US has wrought throughout the world to assess that as it funds ethnic cleansing in Palestine, helps Israel arm an ethnic cleansing in Myanmar, arms Saudi Arabia while they starve Yemeni kids, killed hundreds of thousands maybe millions of civilians in the last decades with it's own bombs, assassinated democratically elected leaders, assassinated it's own citizens domestically and abroad, incarcerates more people and per capita than anywhere in the world, disproportionately Black, brown and indigenous peoples, we put an admitted war criminal in charge of the CIA and the CIA in charge of the state Dept. and on and on and on.
You understanding now?
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On June 13 2018 10:44 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2018 10:28 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 13 2018 10:27 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 10:19 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 13 2018 09:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 09:57 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 13 2018 09:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 09:52 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 13 2018 09:50 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 09:26 WolfintheSheep wrote:
You can argue the billionaire point all you want. The message is the same. If you're deciding morality purely by "sheer value" of effected life, then your morality scale ends up looking ridiculous. Like a murderer being more moral than Gandhi or MLK, for other fun examples.
And the way you talk about North Korea, I'm not sure if you actually believe there is no international reason for other countries to treat them as aggressive enemies? I don't really see any counterargument to billionaires being net exploiters, not 'good doers'. I'm not sure you understand the argument at all based on your inexplicable example of a murderer being more moral than MLK though. Sheer value of life is sheer value of life. How else are you comparing a person who kills a single person to people responsible for more? Resisting US imperialism will cost many lives, that doesn't make it an immoral act. Exploiting people to hoard wealth is inherently immoral and destructive. You definitely don't understand the argument. Okay, thanks for clearing that up. So you do believe that North Korea is a completely moral actor? No. It's easier to understand an argument when you read it instead of imagining it yourself. Well then I don't know why you keep bringing up "US imperialism" like that's the only thing relevant to North Korea. I've established that you don't understand what I'm arguing. Are you asking me to try to explain it to you again? Yes please. In full this time, if you will. The US is not obviously morally and ethically superior to North Korea. My support for this argument precedes this post but to summarize. One need only look at the massive destruction the US has wrought throughout the world to assess that as it funds ethnic cleansing in Palestine, helps Israel arm an ethnic cleansing in Myanmar, arms Saudi Arabia while they starve Yemeni kids, killed hundreds of thousands maybe millions of civilians in the last decades with it's own bombs, assassinated democratically elected leaders, assassinated it's own citizens domestically and abroad, incarcerates more people and per capita than anywhere in the world, disproportionately Black, brown and indigenous peoples, we put an admitted war criminal in charge of the CIA and the CIA in charge of the state Dept. and on and on and on. You understanding now?
On June 13 2018 09:02 WolfintheSheep wrote:
The US has a far greater scope of power across the world. And the US has done a lot of damage, and also a lot of good. What value of each you assess may vary, but North Korea within the scope of their reach does a lot less good.
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On June 13 2018 10:46 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2018 10:44 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 10:28 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 13 2018 10:27 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 10:19 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 13 2018 09:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 09:57 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 13 2018 09:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 09:52 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 13 2018 09:50 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
I don't really see any counterargument to billionaires being net exploiters, not 'good doers'. I'm not sure you understand the argument at all based on your inexplicable example of a murderer being more moral than MLK though. Sheer value of life is sheer value of life. How else are you comparing a person who kills a single person to people responsible for more? Resisting US imperialism will cost many lives, that doesn't make it an immoral act. Exploiting people to hoard wealth is inherently immoral and destructive. You definitely don't understand the argument. Okay, thanks for clearing that up. So you do believe that North Korea is a completely moral actor? No. It's easier to understand an argument when you read it instead of imagining it yourself. Well then I don't know why you keep bringing up "US imperialism" like that's the only thing relevant to North Korea. I've established that you don't understand what I'm arguing. Are you asking me to try to explain it to you again? Yes please. In full this time, if you will. The US is not obviously morally and ethically superior to North Korea. My support for this argument precedes this post but to summarize. One need only look at the massive destruction the US has wrought throughout the world to assess that as it funds ethnic cleansing in Palestine, helps Israel arm an ethnic cleansing in Myanmar, arms Saudi Arabia while they starve Yemeni kids, killed hundreds of thousands maybe millions of civilians in the last decades with it's own bombs, assassinated democratically elected leaders, assassinated it's own citizens domestically and abroad, incarcerates more people and per capita than anywhere in the world, disproportionately Black, brown and indigenous peoples, we put an admitted war criminal in charge of the CIA and the CIA in charge of the state Dept. and on and on and on. You understanding now? Show nested quote +On June 13 2018 09:02 WolfintheSheep wrote:
The US has a far greater scope of power across the world. And the US has done a lot of damage, and also a lot of good. What value of each you assess may vary, but North Korea within the scope of their reach does a lot less good.
So no, you're not understanding. I don't think I can help you any further.
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I think I just disagree with your assessment of morality.
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United States44450 Posts
On June 13 2018 06:21 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2018 06:16 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On June 13 2018 05:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 04:14 Zaros wrote:On June 13 2018 03:03 Lucumo wrote:On June 13 2018 02:51 oBlade wrote:On June 13 2018 02:21 Lucumo wrote:On June 13 2018 01:44 Aveng3r wrote:On June 12 2018 22:01 Lucumo wrote:On June 12 2018 15:09 Zaros wrote:
Am I the only one who finds it repulsive that the so called leader of the free world will not only make a deal but a public deal and talk about their great relationship with a mass murderer with crimes against humanity? Why? If anything, the US is the worse party here. I also doubt they will ever apologize for what they have done to NK because, hey, they are the "good guys". Would you care to explain this statement? On June 13 2018 01:56 Zaros wrote:On June 12 2018 22:01 Lucumo wrote:On June 12 2018 15:09 Zaros wrote:
Am I the only one who finds it repulsive that the so called leader of the free world will not only make a deal but a public deal and talk about their great relationship with a mass murderer with crimes against humanity? Why? If anything, the US is the worse party here. I also doubt they will ever apologize for what they have done to NK because, hey, they are the "good guys". What the US has done? Communism and brutal dictatorship has reduced North Korea to what it is. The US just garuntees the independence of the south and sanctions the north as it would any country going for nukes Apart from this partly being a general statement and putting all of the other US stuff aside (ranging from concentration camps over human experimentation to intentionally destabilizing entire regions)...you do know why North Korea hates the US, right? You know, the war crimes they committed...completely obliterating civilian towns, destroying dams, reservoirs (and thus farmland) etc which led to mass starvation. If you really don't know that, you have to be pretty ignorant in this day and age, considering that knowledge is openly available. North Korea hates the US because they are indoctrinated from birth into an ideology by a regime trying to cling to relevance while its neighbor is prospering. North Korea's GDP is comparable to the annual GDP growth of South Korea. The US is not the reason North Korea is poor and starving now. Your flippant mention of concentration camps which I assume is about Japanese internment in WW2, which if I were to guess your age with an average number ended at least two or almost three of your lifetimes ago, when 1% of the DPRK population at this very moment is in camps, it's a little tone-deaf, is that also the US's fault? I think you're unknowingly trying to transplant a Vietnam mindset to the Korean peninsula which is out of place, and as far as I know Vietnam doesn't hate the US or anyway not to the degree North Korea does. Despite the larger and longer extent of US intervention in Vietnam. So something else is going on. Which is what I just wrote in my post. GDP and being poor etc has nothing to do with anything I wrote. Well, you guessed mostly wrong. And what NK has or doesn't have is not relevant to the discussion as it's about this statement: On June 12 2018 15:09 Zaros wrote:
Am I the only one who finds it repulsive that the so called leader of the free world will not only make a deal but a public deal and talk about their great relationship with a mass murderer with crimes against humanity? If you want to argue that the US is in any way better than NK or even not worse, then we can continue. Otherwise, there is no point. On June 13 2018 02:59 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On June 13 2018 02:55 Lucumo wrote:On June 13 2018 02:35 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On June 13 2018 02:32 Lucumo wrote:On June 13 2018 02:23 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
[quote]
You're going to need to provide source for everything you listed in this statement. Or how about you actually inform yourself instead of being some lazy ignorant? The human experimentation stuff is well documented, as is the Korean. Same with concentration camps ranging from the more tame ones in WW2 to the ones used in the US-Philippine war. As for the destabilizing part...leaks help, as that is information you only get via that (the Syria Files are a good example for that). Okay. Wow. So this is happening. Burden of proof is on you. You can't make a claim such as those and not have the proof to back it up. I mentioned everything you need to know, so that it's even easier for you to look it up. If anything, if you are American, you should already know about all these things. On June 13 2018 02:40 Plansix wrote:On June 13 2018 02:32 Lucumo wrote:On June 13 2018 02:23 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
[quote]
You're going to need to provide source for everything you listed in this statement. Or how about you actually inform yourself instead of being some lazy ignorant? The human experimentation stuff is well documented, as is the Korean. Same with concentration camps ranging from the more tame ones in WW2 to the ones used in the US-Philippine war. As for the destabilizing part...leaks help, as that is information you only get via that (the Syria Files are a good example for that). So wait, are you saying that NK hates the US because of every bad thing the US did in modern history? Or all of our history? Not because we back South Korea after a Chinese backed North Korea nearly drove South Korea's army into the ocean? And we could have pushed all the way into North Korea at the time, but didn't because we knew China would become directly involved. And what it cost the president at the time to stop the war from continuing. The modern stuff is separate from the relationship between both countries. If you look at my first reply, the first sentence refers to the US in general. The second one wonders about the relationship part. The more modern stuff is mostly irrelevant to what NK thinks/uses. I'm not going to post something more lengthy here, seeing as some users seem to be pretty...eh. It's actually pretty simple. The US gives the premise and basis by committing tons of atrocities, the NK regime builds on that, uses it. The US does more bad stuff elsewhere which can also be used, hence "mostly". So the hate has a solid ground and is well-justified but the regime keeps it alive (it has been quite some time after all) and tries to fuel it as that also supports them. Your argument is nonsensical as it relates to this discussion. What the US has done throughout its short history is well documented and those who care to know, know. What does this have to do with anything US-NK related as of this moment? You can supplant US for Britain and have the same argument. Or interject Japan and Nanking. What is your point alluding to? You seem to also ignore the original statement Zaros made to which I replied. I pointed out that in "the great relationship with a mass murderer with crimes against humanity", the US is, if anything, actually the worse party. Also, I got warned because I used "lazy ignorant". Interesting. I'm Sorry but how is the US worse than a Slave state regime that locks you up and your entire family in a labour/concentration camp for speaking out in anyway different from the Regime way of thinking. A regime that starves its people to feed its military, a regime that will kill anyone who tries to leave, that has essentially brainwashed millions of people. I don't understand what kind of warped world view you have to have to think North Korea is in any way or measure better than the US. They have so much less money and resources than us but they still make sure everyone has somewhere to live. Meanwhile we have billionaires complaining about $50m/yr to help so people don't sleep under bridges and on the street. (that one meets your restrictions) People repeat the propaganda about the camps, but they seem to forget the US has prisons full of prisoners where they just took things like cannabis and used it to justify their political imprisonment. The war on drugs was the US's way to crack down on political dissidents, then lock them up, and work em until they break. A lot of the "America is Better" is just us spending more money on the whole thing to make it more palatable. No question the US has killed more civilians than NK. Especially when you count the ones we kill around the world. I am positive NK is better than most here perceive it and the US worse than they want to believe. Every country has prisons. The US has more and the reasons people go are multifaceted. The War on Drugs was racially motivated and carried out by closet racists to break the PoC family and keep them from moving economically forward. A lot of broken homes were created and continue to be, because of it. Whereas, NK will lock you up for disagreeing with their views and whatever else they have going on in there. The billionaires are free to do with their money as they feel. The US government cannot compel them to. The only way that gets fixed is to fix the tax code, which we both know will never happen. The US government can reduce aide to foreign nations and reduce the MIC, but we also know that won't happen any time soon. The US is taken off of the world stage, how many civilians are killed? This is a sticky topic because it takes into account a lot of what-if statements or this-then-that statements. I would tread carefully. I have never been to NK but from reports, the quality of life is about par for a mid-size city for the entire country of NK. When you're using human feces as fertilizer, it can't be all that great. I'm not sure what you're trying to say now? It seems you understand how people can think the gap between the two morally and ethically isn't that large even if you swallow the western propaganda about NK whole without any thought. Show nested quote +On June 13 2018 06:19 Zaros wrote:On June 13 2018 05:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 13 2018 04:14 Zaros wrote:On June 13 2018 03:03 Lucumo wrote:On June 13 2018 02:51 oBlade wrote:On June 13 2018 02:21 Lucumo wrote:On June 13 2018 01:44 Aveng3r wrote:On June 12 2018 22:01 Lucumo wrote:On June 12 2018 15:09 Zaros wrote:
Am I the only one who finds it repulsive that the so called leader of the free world will not only make a deal but a public deal and talk about their great relationship with a mass murderer with crimes against humanity? Why? If anything, the US is the worse party here. I also doubt they will ever apologize for what they have done to NK because, hey, they are the "good guys". Would you care to explain this statement? On June 13 2018 01:56 Zaros wrote:On June 12 2018 22:01 Lucumo wrote:On June 12 2018 15:09 Zaros wrote:
Am I the only one who finds it repulsive that the so called leader of the free world will not only make a deal but a public deal and talk about their great relationship with a mass murderer with crimes against humanity? Why? If anything, the US is the worse party here. I also doubt they will ever apologize for what they have done to NK because, hey, they are the "good guys". What the US has done? Communism and brutal dictatorship has reduced North Korea to what it is. The US just garuntees the independence of the south and sanctions the north as it would any country going for nukes Apart from this partly being a general statement and putting all of the other US stuff aside (ranging from concentration camps over human experimentation to intentionally destabilizing entire regions)...you do know why North Korea hates the US, right? You know, the war crimes they committed...completely obliterating civilian towns, destroying dams, reservoirs (and thus farmland) etc which led to mass starvation. If you really don't know that, you have to be pretty ignorant in this day and age, considering that knowledge is openly available. North Korea hates the US because they are indoctrinated from birth into an ideology by a regime trying to cling to relevance while its neighbor is prospering. North Korea's GDP is comparable to the annual GDP growth of South Korea. The US is not the reason North Korea is poor and starving now. Your flippant mention of concentration camps which I assume is about Japanese internment in WW2, which if I were to guess your age with an average number ended at least two or almost three of your lifetimes ago, when 1% of the DPRK population at this very moment is in camps, it's a little tone-deaf, is that also the US's fault? I think you're unknowingly trying to transplant a Vietnam mindset to the Korean peninsula which is out of place, and as far as I know Vietnam doesn't hate the US or anyway not to the degree North Korea does. Despite the larger and longer extent of US intervention in Vietnam. So something else is going on. Which is what I just wrote in my post. GDP and being poor etc has nothing to do with anything I wrote. Well, you guessed mostly wrong. And what NK has or doesn't have is not relevant to the discussion as it's about this statement: On June 12 2018 15:09 Zaros wrote:
Am I the only one who finds it repulsive that the so called leader of the free world will not only make a deal but a public deal and talk about their great relationship with a mass murderer with crimes against humanity? If you want to argue that the US is in any way better than NK or even not worse, then we can continue. Otherwise, there is no point. On June 13 2018 02:59 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On June 13 2018 02:55 Lucumo wrote:On June 13 2018 02:35 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On June 13 2018 02:32 Lucumo wrote:On June 13 2018 02:23 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
[quote]
You're going to need to provide source for everything you listed in this statement. Or how about you actually inform yourself instead of being some lazy ignorant? The human experimentation stuff is well documented, as is the Korean. Same with concentration camps ranging from the more tame ones in WW2 to the ones used in the US-Philippine war. As for the destabilizing part...leaks help, as that is information you only get via that (the Syria Files are a good example for that). Okay. Wow. So this is happening. Burden of proof is on you. You can't make a claim such as those and not have the proof to back it up. I mentioned everything you need to know, so that it's even easier for you to look it up. If anything, if you are American, you should already know about all these things. On June 13 2018 02:40 Plansix wrote:On June 13 2018 02:32 Lucumo wrote:On June 13 2018 02:23 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
[quote]
You're going to need to provide source for everything you listed in this statement. Or how about you actually inform yourself instead of being some lazy ignorant? The human experimentation stuff is well documented, as is the Korean. Same with concentration camps ranging from the more tame ones in WW2 to the ones used in the US-Philippine war. As for the destabilizing part...leaks help, as that is information you only get via that (the Syria Files are a good example for that). So wait, are you saying that NK hates the US because of every bad thing the US did in modern history? Or all of our history? Not because we back South Korea after a Chinese backed North Korea nearly drove South Korea's army into the ocean? And we could have pushed all the way into North Korea at the time, but didn't because we knew China would become directly involved. And what it cost the president at the time to stop the war from continuing. The modern stuff is separate from the relationship between both countries. If you look at my first reply, the first sentence refers to the US in general. The second one wonders about the relationship part. The more modern stuff is mostly irrelevant to what NK thinks/uses. I'm not going to post something more lengthy here, seeing as some users seem to be pretty...eh. It's actually pretty simple. The US gives the premise and basis by committing tons of atrocities, the NK regime builds on that, uses it. The US does more bad stuff elsewhere which can also be used, hence "mostly". So the hate has a solid ground and is well-justified but the regime keeps it alive (it has been quite some time after all) and tries to fuel it as that also supports them. Your argument is nonsensical as it relates to this discussion. What the US has done throughout its short history is well documented and those who care to know, know. What does this have to do with anything US-NK related as of this moment? You can supplant US for Britain and have the same argument. Or interject Japan and Nanking. What is your point alluding to? You seem to also ignore the original statement Zaros made to which I replied. I pointed out that in "the great relationship with a mass murderer with crimes against humanity", the US is, if anything, actually the worse party. Also, I got warned because I used "lazy ignorant". Interesting. I'm Sorry but how is the US worse than a Slave state regime that locks you up and your entire family in a labour/concentration camp for speaking out in anyway different from the Regime way of thinking. A regime that starves its people to feed its military, a regime that will kill anyone who tries to leave, that has essentially brainwashed millions of people. I don't understand what kind of warped world view you have to have to think North Korea is in any way or measure better than the US. They have so much less money and resources than us but they still make sure everyone has somewhere to live. Meanwhile we have billionaires complaining about $50m/yr to help so people don't sleep under bridges and on the street. (that one meets your restrictions) People repeat the propaganda about the camps, but they seem to forget the US has prisons full of prisoners where they just took things like cannabis and used it to justify their political imprisonment. The war on drugs was the US's way to crack down on political dissidents, then lock them up, and work em until they break. A lot of the "America is Better" is just us spending more money on the whole thing to make it more palatable. No question the US has killed more civilians than NK. Especially when you count the ones we kill around the world. I am positive NK is better than most here perceive it and the US worse than they want to believe. While North Korea is probably never going to be as rich as the US the reason its poor is because its a communist/facist state before the Kims took over the North was more prosperous than the South now its the complete opposite.Trying to compare the US welfare system (or lack there of in your view) to North Korea is just sick its not propoganda read the UN report https://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/HRC/CoIDPRK/Pages/ReportoftheCommissionofInquiryDPRK.aspx It's poor because it's an enemy of capitalism with little natural resources to utilize and western imperialist powers have long been united in depriving them of everything they could.
Sorry GH but this isn't true. It's poor because it's a corrupt dictatorship with an inefficient command economy focused around massive and constant military exertions. NK has a shitton of raw materials and used to be pretty rich. They've also had access to Chinese/Russian/Soviet imports for their entire history.
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EPT
