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Barrin, have you got anything in there about introverts being really hard on themselves for mistakes? Or is that just me?
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On December 22 2012 00:57 Fencar wrote:
Barrin, have you got anything in there about introverts being really hard on themselves for mistakes? Or is that just me?
Certain personality types tend to have very high standards, especially for themselves.
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I got features from both sides..
I guess im just that awesome
henceforth I shall refer to myself as INTREXTOVERT
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On December 21 2012 22:12 teapot wrote:
I took this test and it proves I am deep and intelligent and totally not shallow and stupid. Hooray for me!
And what I always took to be my basic selfishness and misanthropy is actually me just needing to "recharge my social battery" with some "quiet alone time". Thank god for that. Lol. I always knew I was a genius and not an anti-social asshole.
besides the apparent sarcasm this post makes a very good example of how low level of social activity (i.e. introversion) can be explained in a different way. Introversion-extroversion is probably the worst personality dimension in terms of how many factors influence it and of how predictive it is of other characteristics.
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About the whole, labels thing. I dunno about you guys, but for me:
I feel that I am quite borderline introvert extrovert. I need my "alone" time, but I have the most fun with friends doing active outward things... But I have only a few friends, and I am often not the most confident in "extrovert" situations. Im getting much better at having confidence when talking to someone random who I don't know, who is in a "superior" position to me.
Essentially I feel like a mix of Intro and Extro. BUT, when I have taken the tests and been "categorized" I was kinda shocked that i was classified pretty heavily into introvert. There is power in a name. I began to question what I do and why I do it. I began mentally saying, "oh, thats why I have trouble in X situation." It took me a little while before I realized that for me, the most psychological part of this personality type is the classification. In my mind, It can't be accurate (for me at least). The personality classification test has too much power in and of itself to be effective. This test can't be infalliable and accurate for ever person. At this point in my life, I do not accept any sort of labelling in many areas of life, just understand their personality. In other words, drop the label. This has been very helpful for me. I don't think of people as nerds, shy people, Jocks, or douches. I just think of them as people with their own personality that values specific things.
Similarily, you have the love-language classification. This is also another example of classification that I regard as silliness.
Anyway, bottom line: I wouldn't get upset at people for wanting to "drop the label". I have found this to be very much freeing. You are you. You can describe yourself whatever way you want. But be careful with using terms like extrovert and introvert, you may find that they have a lot more self deceiving potential than you may like.
Also, While I know that this thread was primarily designed with the purpose of Introverted Awareness in mind, I feel that this thread is kinda biased and odd because It doesn't (as far as I know) address problems with both sides Please forgive me if this is not the case, Ignore this last paragraph (I read 90% OP and didn't watch the videos). We live in a society, that by very nature is social. Overly social people run in to problems, Underly-social people can run into problems too. I think both personality types have disadvantages/advantages. I wouldn't personally use the words, "being introverted is good" although I am not sure you used comparable words.
Just my thoughts, please don't be offended.
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I relate to what they say about those myths so much... I never really knew for a while, but apparently I appear rude to people just because I don't spurt out all those "necessary" bits of small talk. And this is exactly how I see it, I just don't talk unless I see a point to talking, or something to say.
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On December 22 2012 00:20 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 23:57 Cubu wrote:honestly, i don't see introversion as something that needs awareness. Introverts and extroverts are just normal people who live together quite well. But then again, i don't live in america so i might be wrong. btw, what do you mean by this : emphasize that success comes through being highly social and outgoing Isn't the way to success the same throughout every society? That is, by getting good marks and other ways that contribute to society or results in getting alot of money. How does being social and outgoing make you successful? Because people higher up in the organization notice you more easily. Because your coworkers feel more comfortable around you. Because you make a larger dent. You're louder and you take more place. It's very easy to think that "If you do your job well, you get promoted" when the fact is that it's a bit more complex than that. A company is, usually, a social environment, and while one might wish that they are only evaluated on how efficient they work, their social competence will usually also matter a lot.
They will notice you when you produce distinguished results. Being louder is a nuisance and coworkers feeling more comfortable around you is something trivial, therefore negligable. Of course there are other factors to getting promoted like your boss also being your father or cousin or you coming from a wealthy background which favours your boss, but those circumstances are very uncommon.
On December 22 2012 00:28 WTFZerg wrote:I never really got the introvert vs extrovert thing, but maybe that's because I don't feel that I fit into either concept. I don't really enjoy going out and spending time with large groups of people for long periods of time because frankly, people piss me off. But I am told I am pretty charismatic and know for a fact that I have won people over by pretending to care. I've always aced job interviews and I have absolutely no problem with public speaking, but I only do well in those situations because I know I'm going to get something out of it, whether it be a job, a good grade, or just recognition. Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 23:57 Cubu wrote:honestly, i don't see introversion as something that needs awareness. Introverts and extroverts are just normal people who live together quite well. But then again, i don't live in america so i might be wrong. btw, what do you mean by this : emphasize that success comes through being highly social and outgoing Isn't the way to success the same throughout every society? That is, by getting good marks and other ways that contribute to society or results in getting alot of money. How does being social and outgoing make you successful? Being invisible in the business world is worse than being dead; at least people will recognize your name if you died on company time. If you are incapable of selling your product, your skills, and your self you are not going to do as well as far as promotions and income as someone who can. It does not even matter if you're the best of the best; If you cannot sell your self you're basically screwed. Networking plays such a massive role in professional success that the adage "It's not what you know, it's who you know" is pretty much always going to be accurate. Not to say it's that way in all cases, but it holds true in a lot of situations.
You wouldn't be invisible if you were a productive worker who shows results. Maybe for a salesperson and other similar job, 'selling yourself' might work. Yes networking is pretty helpful, but it's not something that your average joe can't do.
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On December 22 2012 01:22 Cubu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 00:20 Tobberoth wrote:On December 21 2012 23:57 Cubu wrote:honestly, i don't see introversion as something that needs awareness. Introverts and extroverts are just normal people who live together quite well. But then again, i don't live in america so i might be wrong. btw, what do you mean by this : emphasize that success comes through being highly social and outgoing Isn't the way to success the same throughout every society? That is, by getting good marks and other ways that contribute to society or results in getting alot of money. How does being social and outgoing make you successful? Because people higher up in the organization notice you more easily. Because your coworkers feel more comfortable around you. Because you make a larger dent. You're louder and you take more place. It's very easy to think that "If you do your job well, you get promoted" when the fact is that it's a bit more complex than that. A company is, usually, a social environment, and while one might wish that they are only evaluated on how efficient they work, their social competence will usually also matter a lot. They will notice you when you produce distinguished results. Being louder is a nuisance and coworkers feeling more comfortable around you is something trivial, therefore negligable. Of course there are other factors to getting promoted like your boss also being your father or cousin or you coming from a wealthy background which favours your boss, but those circumstances are very uncommon. Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 00:28 WTFZerg wrote:I never really got the introvert vs extrovert thing, but maybe that's because I don't feel that I fit into either concept. I don't really enjoy going out and spending time with large groups of people for long periods of time because frankly, people piss me off. But I am told I am pretty charismatic and know for a fact that I have won people over by pretending to care. I've always aced job interviews and I have absolutely no problem with public speaking, but I only do well in those situations because I know I'm going to get something out of it, whether it be a job, a good grade, or just recognition. On December 21 2012 23:57 Cubu wrote:honestly, i don't see introversion as something that needs awareness. Introverts and extroverts are just normal people who live together quite well. But then again, i don't live in america so i might be wrong. btw, what do you mean by this : emphasize that success comes through being highly social and outgoing Isn't the way to success the same throughout every society? That is, by getting good marks and other ways that contribute to society or results in getting alot of money. How does being social and outgoing make you successful? Being invisible in the business world is worse than being dead; at least people will recognize your name if you died on company time. If you are incapable of selling your product, your skills, and your self you are not going to do as well as far as promotions and income as someone who can. It does not even matter if you're the best of the best; If you cannot sell your self you're basically screwed. Networking plays such a massive role in professional success that the adage "It's not what you know, it's who you know" is pretty much always going to be accurate. Not to say it's that way in all cases, but it holds true in a lot of situations. You wouldn't be invisible if you were a productive worker who shows results. Maybe for a salesperson and other similar job, 'selling yourself' might work. Yes networking is pretty helpful, but it's not something that your average joe can't do.
Networking is not "helpful." Networking is one of the most important skills you can have.
You would be extremely surprised at how often people who show results get overshadowed by people who produce less but are more inclined to make themselves known. The job I'm at now fired the previous dude because he literally had no idea how to do his job, but he was here for over a year just because he was able to sell himself.
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On December 22 2012 01:25 WTFZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 01:22 Cubu wrote:On December 22 2012 00:20 Tobberoth wrote:On December 21 2012 23:57 Cubu wrote:honestly, i don't see introversion as something that needs awareness. Introverts and extroverts are just normal people who live together quite well. But then again, i don't live in america so i might be wrong. btw, what do you mean by this : emphasize that success comes through being highly social and outgoing Isn't the way to success the same throughout every society? That is, by getting good marks and other ways that contribute to society or results in getting alot of money. How does being social and outgoing make you successful? Because people higher up in the organization notice you more easily. Because your coworkers feel more comfortable around you. Because you make a larger dent. You're louder and you take more place. It's very easy to think that "If you do your job well, you get promoted" when the fact is that it's a bit more complex than that. A company is, usually, a social environment, and while one might wish that they are only evaluated on how efficient they work, their social competence will usually also matter a lot. They will notice you when you produce distinguished results. Being louder is a nuisance and coworkers feeling more comfortable around you is something trivial, therefore negligable. Of course there are other factors to getting promoted like your boss also being your father or cousin or you coming from a wealthy background which favours your boss, but those circumstances are very uncommon. On December 22 2012 00:28 WTFZerg wrote:I never really got the introvert vs extrovert thing, but maybe that's because I don't feel that I fit into either concept. I don't really enjoy going out and spending time with large groups of people for long periods of time because frankly, people piss me off. But I am told I am pretty charismatic and know for a fact that I have won people over by pretending to care. I've always aced job interviews and I have absolutely no problem with public speaking, but I only do well in those situations because I know I'm going to get something out of it, whether it be a job, a good grade, or just recognition. On December 21 2012 23:57 Cubu wrote:honestly, i don't see introversion as something that needs awareness. Introverts and extroverts are just normal people who live together quite well. But then again, i don't live in america so i might be wrong. btw, what do you mean by this : emphasize that success comes through being highly social and outgoing Isn't the way to success the same throughout every society? That is, by getting good marks and other ways that contribute to society or results in getting alot of money. How does being social and outgoing make you successful? Being invisible in the business world is worse than being dead; at least people will recognize your name if you died on company time. If you are incapable of selling your product, your skills, and your self you are not going to do as well as far as promotions and income as someone who can. It does not even matter if you're the best of the best; If you cannot sell your self you're basically screwed. Networking plays such a massive role in professional success that the adage "It's not what you know, it's who you know" is pretty much always going to be accurate. Not to say it's that way in all cases, but it holds true in a lot of situations. You wouldn't be invisible if you were a productive worker who shows results. Maybe for a salesperson and other similar job, 'selling yourself' might work. Yes networking is pretty helpful, but it's not something that your average joe can't do. Networking is not "helpful." Networking is one of the most important skills you can have. You would be extremely surprised at how often people who show results get overshadowed by people who produce less but are more inclined to make themselves known. The job I'm at now fired the previous dude because he literally had no idea how to do his job, but he was here for over a year just because he was able to sell himself.
And what exactly is this job?
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Not every job has perfectly measurable results, and even if there are, it normally isn't very difficult for a more assertive person (boss/teammate) to take credit for your work. Obviously if you stand out by a LOT it won't matter, but an introvert is still at a considerable disadvantage.
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On December 22 2012 01:29 Cubu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 01:25 WTFZerg wrote:On December 22 2012 01:22 Cubu wrote:On December 22 2012 00:20 Tobberoth wrote:On December 21 2012 23:57 Cubu wrote:honestly, i don't see introversion as something that needs awareness. Introverts and extroverts are just normal people who live together quite well. But then again, i don't live in america so i might be wrong. btw, what do you mean by this : emphasize that success comes through being highly social and outgoing Isn't the way to success the same throughout every society? That is, by getting good marks and other ways that contribute to society or results in getting alot of money. How does being social and outgoing make you successful? Because people higher up in the organization notice you more easily. Because your coworkers feel more comfortable around you. Because you make a larger dent. You're louder and you take more place. It's very easy to think that "If you do your job well, you get promoted" when the fact is that it's a bit more complex than that. A company is, usually, a social environment, and while one might wish that they are only evaluated on how efficient they work, their social competence will usually also matter a lot. They will notice you when you produce distinguished results. Being louder is a nuisance and coworkers feeling more comfortable around you is something trivial, therefore negligable. Of course there are other factors to getting promoted like your boss also being your father or cousin or you coming from a wealthy background which favours your boss, but those circumstances are very uncommon. On December 22 2012 00:28 WTFZerg wrote:I never really got the introvert vs extrovert thing, but maybe that's because I don't feel that I fit into either concept. I don't really enjoy going out and spending time with large groups of people for long periods of time because frankly, people piss me off. But I am told I am pretty charismatic and know for a fact that I have won people over by pretending to care. I've always aced job interviews and I have absolutely no problem with public speaking, but I only do well in those situations because I know I'm going to get something out of it, whether it be a job, a good grade, or just recognition. On December 21 2012 23:57 Cubu wrote:honestly, i don't see introversion as something that needs awareness. Introverts and extroverts are just normal people who live together quite well. But then again, i don't live in america so i might be wrong. btw, what do you mean by this : emphasize that success comes through being highly social and outgoing Isn't the way to success the same throughout every society? That is, by getting good marks and other ways that contribute to society or results in getting alot of money. How does being social and outgoing make you successful? Being invisible in the business world is worse than being dead; at least people will recognize your name if you died on company time. If you are incapable of selling your product, your skills, and your self you are not going to do as well as far as promotions and income as someone who can. It does not even matter if you're the best of the best; If you cannot sell your self you're basically screwed. Networking plays such a massive role in professional success that the adage "It's not what you know, it's who you know" is pretty much always going to be accurate. Not to say it's that way in all cases, but it holds true in a lot of situations. You wouldn't be invisible if you were a productive worker who shows results. Maybe for a salesperson and other similar job, 'selling yourself' might work. Yes networking is pretty helpful, but it's not something that your average joe can't do. Networking is not "helpful." Networking is one of the most important skills you can have. You would be extremely surprised at how often people who show results get overshadowed by people who produce less but are more inclined to make themselves known. The job I'm at now fired the previous dude because he literally had no idea how to do his job, but he was here for over a year just because he was able to sell himself. And what exactly is this job?
Database development for an extremely large company.
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On December 22 2012 01:30 Talin wrote:
Not every job has perfectly measurable results, and even if there are, it normally isn't very difficult for a more assertive person (boss/teammate) to take credit for your work. Obviously if you stand out by a LOT it won't matter, but an introvert is still at a considerable disadvantage.
But a boss will be credited for his worker's work whether he decides to or not. That is how management is judged upon. The boss' worker show good results > the higher-ups see it as a reflection of said boss' management skills > boss gets promoted > boss promotes worker who showed good results. Maybe the boss actually doesn't have good management skills but this is the conventional way in the corporate world.
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On December 22 2012 00:45 Barrin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 00:28 r.Evo wrote:On December 22 2012 00:16 Barrin wrote:On December 22 2012 00:04 r.Evo wrote:On December 21 2012 23:22 Barrin wrote:On December 21 2012 23:10 r.Evo wrote:
That's what I meant originally by "shifting away responsibility from the individual to some higher power". Suddenly "being an introvert" doesn't mean "I have lot of introverted preferences" anymore but it provides an excuse for being weak at certain skillsets. Whether you like doing math or a certain foreign language directly correlates with being good at it.
Here's the deal: If someone would tell you that you're bad at math because... you're bad at math you will never improve. Tell someone who is bad at math (...but would like to be better at it) that you'll teach him for a while, he learns some more of it and THEN says "Wow, I understand how this works now but I STILL don't like it" then, and only then, you can be sure it's about his preference and not related to his weak skillset in the area.
Do I make more sense now? :> Uh no. I don't like cooking, but I'm actually very good at it, because I like good food which encouraged me to practice. Not liking something is not the same as not being good at it. Go check out the list of introverted actors... most of those people identify themselves as shy and reserved around people and yet they're fucking amazing actors. In fact introverts often feel like actors, and they're good at it even if they don't like it. BTW you're talking about skills which are learned, it is talent that you are born with. Talent is how good that person is at math to begin with... Talent is a strength/weakness too, not just acquired skills. Again, the only problem here is how the label is being used. If you never bothered to cook because someone told you "You can't cook well because you're male" that's on the same level as saying "You can't interact well with people because you're an introvert" aka utter bullshit. Yes, that is utter bullshit. I don't know why you would listen to someone who's talking like that. You populate certain images of how someone should be if he is "an introvert". It is no different from any other lable you could attach to a certain group of people. I work in an industry that is pretty much based on "helping shy and introverted people" - from that experience I dare saying that most of the people I have dealt with aren't "introverted" or "shy"; - they're just bad at interacting with people because no one ever told them how to. No... that's just how they might be, more specifically, what the way some have been. I never said that's how introverts should be. Don't put words in my mouth. But, hey, instead you can also give them a reason to believe that this is how they were born, this is how it will be and there's nothing they can change about it. Happiness and freedom doesn't come from being able to say "I am an introvert and I'm proud to be one", it comes from getting rid of labels like this which artificially limit the individuals growth. I still think you're misunderstanding what it means you be an introvert. You seem to be attaching all sorts of connotations that aren't actually there. Everyone has a slew of personality traits that arise or not depending on the circumstances. You seem to think that when someone says "I am an introvert" they are saying "I am always of an introverted mindset"... when all they're really saying is that the most of the personality traits that tend to arise in them are more on the introverted side of the spectrum. This is extremely flexible, it is you who are being rigid. Your entire OP is full of glorifying, celeberatory quotes that have nothing to do with being introverted or not, most of them trying to attach certain values to the whole topic. That's how you project your own values onto the topic, that has nothing to do with "raising awareness". Again, compare your OP to any type of "promotion" you can find on breast cancer awareness, you won't find such a huge emotional context in those texts. You aim to provoke emotional responses and unlogic conclusions, that in it's very nature has nothing to do with "raising awareness". A lot of people in America today think that introversion, etc. is a bad thing... what I'm doing here is essentially reversing that trend by about the same degree that it has been skewed into. I have no problem admitting that I used a sort of propoganda approach... that's what it took to reverse theirs. Show nested quote +The pretty much first big argument started by you saying "Fuck you" to someone who told you that identifying with labes such as "introvert" is bullshit, but it's obviously the other side who is being rigid. You WANT to see people bashing on introverts because you're emotionally attached to the definition, because you try to define yourself via an artificial category. Again, this has nothing to with raising awareness. I was very clear that I said "fuck you for implying that introversion is a bad thing". If he wasn't doing that (and I think the very next thing he said is that he wasn't) then he should have taken no offense to what I said. It was a misunderstanding - I've already PM'd him apologizing for misunderstanding him so much and he admitted that he wasn't being easy to understand. I'm mostly trying to make introverts aware of themselves, not quite as much making extroverts aware of introverts (but ya sure why not if they happen to come along). Nobody is DEFINING themselves with an artificial category. We are only DESCRIBING ourselves. It is you who are misusing the label. Show nested quote +Once again, the issue is that you're encouraging people to say "I am bad at interacting with people because I'm an introvert" instead of saying "I am bad at interacting with people". If you're now going to tell me that this isn't at all what you're trying to communicate, look at most of the responses from "introverted" people in this thread. It seems to be what people take as the gist of your "awareness raising". No I am not. Stop telling me what I'm doing. What some people take away from what I'm saying is not the same thing as what I'm trying to communicate.
You aren't reversing any preconception. You are forcing "introverts" into a similar category as any minority that needs to "stand up and speak for their rights". You are antagonizing anyone who isn't immediately on your side simply by making it "us against them".
For the third time in a row you're dodging this line of mine: Once again, the issue is that you're encouraging people to say "I am bad at interacting with people because I'm an introvert" instead of saying "I am bad at interacting with people".
When you try to communicate something your initial intent is utterly worthless when you aren't able to communicate it. What matters is what the intended audience receives it as.
Just look at your own quote from your very last post:
Nobody is DEFINING themselves with an artificial category. We are only DESCRIBING ourselves. It is you who are misusing the label.
You imply that:
a) "Introverts" are some kind of social or political group with a common agenda.
b) "Describing something" isn't the same as "Labeling something".
c) The other side of the argument (me) is misunderstanding you after calling you out on your non-existant logical arguments and that you go on to use blatant propaganda instead - all while claiming that you DO make logical "scientific" arguments.
d) You make it "us" against "them" when neither side is clearly defined. That's again something that screams "I want validation from a certain peergroup" not "I want to educate people about this subject.
e) I can completely identify myself as being introverted. And extroverted. However, trying to fit yourself into either of those categories doesn't make you anyone special, less or more privileged. Your boss wants to see you working more with other people? Either deal with it and learn how to or drop the issue - claiming that it's "unfair" because "I'm introverted" isn't helping anyone involved. It's on the same level as trying to tell someone to hire somebody because he's black or white, not because he's good at his job.
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So satisfying to read this, kinda makes me feel understood. I remember when I first did the type indicator exam, totally thought of myself as an ISFJ, but the results came back as INTP. having read your descriptions and such, I think the exam nailed it perfectly and I'm kinda proud of it.
Also, does anyone else notice a bit of irony at a thread on introverts and the value of silence getting to so many posts so quickly?
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On December 21 2012 09:05 SnipedSoul wrote:
Being introverted is cool. I know some people whose lives come to an end when they have nowhere to go on a Friday.
I appreciate the effort you put into making that ginormous post. Anything to increase awareness would be cool. I'm tired of people thinking that introverts are psychotic time bombs waiting to go off.
i was going to say essentially this. but someone got it out of the way on post 4 or something.
i liked the part about making friends and having a minimum of friends but the ones you do have you will be loyal to for life. SO TRUE. most people i have no desire to be friends with let alone make small talk with. but there are a few that i would take a bullet for.
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On December 22 2012 01:30 Talin wrote:
Not every job has perfectly measurable results, and even if there are, it normally isn't very difficult for a more assertive person (boss/teammate) to take credit for your work. Obviously if you stand out by a LOT it won't matter, but an introvert is still at a considerable disadvantage.
It's not the introvert being at a disadvantage, it's the person who can't sell themselves/work in a social setting. If, for whatever reason you can't sell yourself properly in your job or can't work in a social setting even if it's part of your job description then, well, you are inferior to someone who can for that specific job.
Someone who has more of the hard or softskills required for his job deserves to be payed more. "Not being good at interacting with people" based off a self-test on the internet isn't a medical condition.
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EPT
