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The gun control argument stops now. I know it's fun to argue about it in the heat of the tragedy when you can get all worked up about it but it's pretty disrespectful and if you don't care enough about the issue to make a separate topic for gun control then you don't care enough to shit on the tragedy by exploiting it. A gun control topic can be found here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=313472Also stop posting links to his facebook. TL will be no part of an unconfirmed witch hunt. |
On December 15 2012 08:19 StatixEx wrote:
if you actually just step back for 1 second and think, HOW did this happen? Im a school teacher and can fully understand that your guard is totally down for something like this and anyone can seem to get onto the premises no matter what you do to keep them out. Schools need to get more LOCKED down from start to end. Kids late get fined and sent home or ordered to stay at home, the school has some sort of VLE to do home learning or even stream the lesson. (of course if u know about teaching the unions would never have this) but id sooner do a bit more work than face the possibility of people getting massacred including me.
Its a totally impossible situation to predict but i think the hard line has to be taken now. Noone in without a card, students, everyone, and globally announce that you just stay away from school premises NO EXCEPTIONS. totally impossible to implement this of course but god damn it, just imagine is this was your child or your family, you wouldnt stop for 1 second and agree that if this is the way its got to be, no matter the inconvenience and logistical mess, this is the way its got to be
im disgusted and it makes me more mad that these people werent identified as odd well before. teachers could play an important role of flagging individuals in school who show tendencies like this. Just a thought, its making me more angry and sorry to more i think about this
Well, I'm not a school teacher, but I have to say a few things about this. First of all, schools aren't maximum security facilities or fortresses. They aren't designed for keeping people out or in. Their design is supposed to be spacious and comfortable. Take away all the windows, glass doors, open corridors and spacious lobbies and you actually create a situation where in this type of event the design actually facilitates the massacre more than it prevents it. If you can't enter or leave a building in an emergency, what you are is trapped. Prevention of this is not the duty of schools. It never was, and they'll never be capable of it. This is why it's pointless to present hypothetical arguments or start throwing around crime statistics. This type of crime is uncommon, despite the attention it garners. A school is in as much danger as any other building filled with unarmed civilians going about their lives, which is why there is no reason to be alarmed about the safety of your own school in this regard. I don't think asking someone in the middle of a rampage for a visitor's pass makes a lick of difference, and neither does trapping yourself in a fortress.
At the end of the day, you also can't go around flagging people as "odd", whatever the fuck that even means...
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Finding a way to reduce bullying and ensuring the childs life at home wasn't terrible would probably be about the best way of reducing the occurrence of these incidences.
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On December 15 2012 08:33 TheKefka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 08:27 StatixEx wrote:
yes kefka but its a start no? Pretty much ALL of the idiot kids at school i grew up with have all been in jail at some point. so . . .what? Looks like i called a problem when i was 8, i could of saved the government the money,. Students who have left me who were idiots have since been pulled up by the police . . hmmm pattern. Not saying that they go full on retard with the murder but mostly we spotted antisocial/evil conduct early . . . just sayin I don't get it what do you exactly do you want to do with them?Jail them for a crime they didn't commit? There is no pattern that indicates that someone will go on a shooting spree and you can't predict it.From all the other shootings you can clearly see that they were carefully planed mostly by the killers and no one on the outside knew about it really or could have predicted it in their wildest dreams. There's no point in making schools a high security maximum prison just because of a rare,unpredictable occurrence like this one.
there are plenty of high schools that have metal detectors. even in canada. but yes, to have them at elementary schools is way over the top.
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On December 15 2012 07:46 Xahhk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:15 cmgillett wrote:On December 15 2012 07:13 Aulisemia wrote:
1.8 people die worldwide every second. Never understood the sensationalism behind things like this - tragic for the people involved, but unless you live there it is not like it affects you at all. its called being a human. Usually humans have the ability to feel empathy for others' misfortunes. Look outside of yourself sometime. He's talking about sensationalism of it, which is not what you are getting at. It's the spectacle, the grand speeches and all that. The same thing happened in China a few days ago, a mall shooting this past week, lots of dying everywhere in more grotesque ways than you can imagine, and it's all there for you to read up on. Humans have the ability to feel empathy for others but it's also true that you can be desensitized, at least to the point that you don't tear up or huddle with others when you don't have an actual connection to the events. He does not need to be accused of being selfish and heartless to question the media and societal response to events like these. I would venture to say the 'sensationalism' is part of the reason why so many massacres are occurring... because the killers know at the very least the news will let everyone know about their lives and 'tragic' circumstances that led them to kill groups of people.
That said, it's understandable why anyone would lash out at those who are indifferent or analytical about the situation. If you have nieces, or just interact with children I'd imagine the empathy would be immense. Similar to those online bullying cases (Amanda Todd) or any tragedy really.
Just wanted to be balanced
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On December 15 2012 08:23 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 08:20 Mu` wrote:On December 15 2012 08:14 bo1b wrote:On December 15 2012 08:11 Mu` wrote:On December 15 2012 07:13 Aulisemia wrote:
1.8 people die worldwide every second. Never understood the sensationalism behind things like this - tragic for the people involved, but unless you live there it is not like it affects you at all. Well, actually this is true but presenting things this way is quite stupid. Sure, people die each second in the world... well, you could even say people are murdered each day to make it looks like the event we are talking about. The little difference (compared to "people die") is the number, the fact they were murdered and the fact they were children... If you can't understand why this leads to some "sensationalism", i have to ask you about Hiroshima : why do we even talk about it ? 250 000 dead, less than 2 day of mortality on Earth, why the the hell do we care ? They were bombed like...millions of people before and after them, really, what the f*ck ? You have to be pretty blind if you think it doesn't affect at least your country. You should study a bit what a sovereign state is supposed to be, providing HOMELAND security and such (i thought you even had a department for this !), thus you would understand that people killing children at school (you don't see some kind of symbolism ?) isnt something you can throw away like it doesnt matter. At least, if you start arguing that it will always happen (probably true) anyway, you should realize that it will at least, restart the debate on gun politics (and sorry, i'm just an european pussy, but i would be quite concerned to know if people can freely carry weapons or not...(meaning it should affects you too). Now this said, when i read this : The gun control argument stops now. I know it's fun to argue about it in the heat of the tragedy when you can get all worked up about it but it's pretty disrespectful and if you don't care enough about the issue to make a separate topic for gun control then you don't care enough to shit on the tragedy by exploiting it.-> I wonder what's the purpose of this topic (i saw there is a dedicated topic on gun control, i just don't see the point of this one). Do people think coming on a random internet forum to express their feelings equal showing empathy ? You drop a sadface smiley for 30 dead kids and that it ? And you still have the guts to blame some other random internet guy cause he doesnt act like he "should". Funny. Go out and help some homeless guy, i can garantee you'll show a lot more empathy. PS : the fact "he" shot children doesnt prove anything about mental disorder (still probably a bit though)... if his goal was to start a mediatic madness, he just did the most "efficient" thing he could come with. We had that in France recently, some guy, muslim, - ~related to French intelligence service in a very unclear way - started to kill french arab soldiers (considered "traitors" for fighting in Afghanistan). He killed 3 of them, for political reasons (there is no debate about how extreme this is). But he probably wasnt satisfied about the response in the medias so what did he do ? He went to a Jewish School and shot 2 jewish kids (promptly sent in Israel to be burried there) as well as a teacher. Netanyahu himself came to visit that school after this, like did ~all french politicians... Was this terrorist ill ? The reaction of the main power is also a part of terorism's power, remember 9/11 : Random beard man talk about "the bad US whose only goal is to invade others countries to take control of ressources, evil nation wishing to increase it's power in Middle East by any means". > throw two planes in towers, and what did happen in the end ? It always amazes me how someone can completely miss the point, make a horrible comparison and then go on a tangent irrelevant to the quote. I'm trying to explain the difference between "madness", "illness", whatever and politically "justified" (tricky word) acts. So it may well be tangent but not necessarily irrelevant (we'll find out soon). So you quoted someone talking about how media sensationalises murder as your talking point?
I didn't quote everything i was answering to, pretty obvious ? I talked about what the first quoted guy said yes, but then discussed the purpose of this topic (quoted OP statement as well), questioned the empathy supposedly shown in this mess and finally made some statements reviewing what i read here about the killer's theorical mental disorder.
And yeah, i feel pretty awesome too.
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Since everyone seems to come up with suggestions on how to make schools safer, I will add mine. How about 1 sniper on the roof for each school, if someone suspicious (according to the sniper of course) approaches the school, he takes them out with a head shot. This would save so many lives and it would be the perfect solution, right? As you can tell I have read up on these matters and is well versed in the subject. This is a solid plan.
User was warned for this post
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On December 15 2012 08:37 Mu` wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 08:23 bo1b wrote:On December 15 2012 08:20 Mu` wrote:On December 15 2012 08:14 bo1b wrote:On December 15 2012 08:11 Mu` wrote:On December 15 2012 07:13 Aulisemia wrote:
1.8 people die worldwide every second. Never understood the sensationalism behind things like this - tragic for the people involved, but unless you live there it is not like it affects you at all. Well, actually this is true but presenting things this way is quite stupid. Sure, people die each second in the world... well, you could even say people are murdered each day to make it looks like the event we are talking about. The little difference (compared to "people die") is the number, the fact they were murdered and the fact they were children... If you can't understand why this leads to some "sensationalism", i have to ask you about Hiroshima : why do we even talk about it ? 250 000 dead, less than 2 day of mortality on Earth, why the the hell do we care ? They were bombed like...millions of people before and after them, really, what the f*ck ? You have to be pretty blind if you think it doesn't affect at least your country. You should study a bit what a sovereign state is supposed to be, providing HOMELAND security and such (i thought you even had a department for this !), thus you would understand that people killing children at school (you don't see some kind of symbolism ?) isnt something you can throw away like it doesnt matter. At least, if you start arguing that it will always happen (probably true) anyway, you should realize that it will at least, restart the debate on gun politics (and sorry, i'm just an european pussy, but i would be quite concerned to know if people can freely carry weapons or not...(meaning it should affects you too). Now this said, when i read this : The gun control argument stops now. I know it's fun to argue about it in the heat of the tragedy when you can get all worked up about it but it's pretty disrespectful and if you don't care enough about the issue to make a separate topic for gun control then you don't care enough to shit on the tragedy by exploiting it.-> I wonder what's the purpose of this topic (i saw there is a dedicated topic on gun control, i just don't see the point of this one). Do people think coming on a random internet forum to express their feelings equal showing empathy ? You drop a sadface smiley for 30 dead kids and that it ? And you still have the guts to blame some other random internet guy cause he doesnt act like he "should". Funny. Go out and help some homeless guy, i can garantee you'll show a lot more empathy. PS : the fact "he" shot children doesnt prove anything about mental disorder (still probably a bit though)... if his goal was to start a mediatic madness, he just did the most "efficient" thing he could come with. We had that in France recently, some guy, muslim, - ~related to French intelligence service in a very unclear way - started to kill french arab soldiers (considered "traitors" for fighting in Afghanistan). He killed 3 of them, for political reasons (there is no debate about how extreme this is). But he probably wasnt satisfied about the response in the medias so what did he do ? He went to a Jewish School and shot 2 jewish kids (promptly sent in Israel to be burried there) as well as a teacher. Netanyahu himself came to visit that school after this, like did ~all french politicians... Was this terrorist ill ? The reaction of the main power is also a part of terorism's power, remember 9/11 : Random beard man talk about "the bad US whose only goal is to invade others countries to take control of ressources, evil nation wishing to increase it's power in Middle East by any means". > throw two planes in towers, and what did happen in the end ? It always amazes me how someone can completely miss the point, make a horrible comparison and then go on a tangent irrelevant to the quote. I'm trying to explain the difference between "madness", "illness", whatever and politically "justified" (tricky word) acts. So it may well be tangent but not necessarily irrelevant (we'll find out soon). So you quoted someone talking about how media sensationalises murder as your talking point? I didn't quote everything i was answering to, pretty obvious ? I talked about what the first quoted guy said yes, but then discussed the purpose of this topic (quoted OP statement as well), questioned the empathy supposedly shown in this mess and finally made some statements reviewing what i read here about the killer's theorical mental disorder. And yeah, i feel pretty awesome too.
What you talked about had nothing to do with what was quoted. I'm glad you feel awesome.
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We can rise our safety precautions until we live in a prison made of chocolate.
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Freedom is not free, yes we can implement a billion ways to make the world safer, but if you go to the extremes, like how i feel statixEx is doing here, the world will not be better for it.
I would much rather try to figure out why this happend and how to stop it, one solution being not go batshit crazy on the media coverage. Or we can somehow implement better support systems so fewer people fall outside of society.
Anyhow, whats the best newschannels/sites in the US? Is there still some objective non tabloid places to go?
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I heard something on the news and someone suggested just putting one policeman in each school, is that not a good idea? i mean people cant exatcly say its too "expensive" or takes to much "work". Suprised it didnt happen sooner.
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On December 15 2012 08:41 Reaps wrote:
I heard something on the news and someone suggested just putting one policeman in each school, is that not a good idea? i mean people cant exatcly say its too "expensive" or takes to much "work". Suprised it didnt happen sooner.
And how would this help prevent situations like this?
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On December 15 2012 08:41 Reaps wrote:
I heard something on the news and someone suggested just putting one policeman in each school, is that not a good idea? i mean people cant exatcly say its too "expensive" or takes to much "work". Suprised it didnt happen sooner.
I'm pretty sure that a policeman out on the streets or pretty much anywhere else will prevent more crime on average instead of sitting in a school each day.
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On December 15 2012 08:41 Reaps wrote:
I heard something on the news and someone suggested just putting one policeman in each school, is that not a good idea? i mean people cant exatcly say its too "expensive" or takes to much "work". Suprised it didnt happen sooner.
I live in the US, and every school I have attended had a cop on campus. Not sure if it will help much in this situation though.
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United States43808 Posts
On December 15 2012 08:41 Reaps wrote:
I heard something on the news and someone suggested just putting one policeman in each school, is that not a good idea? i mean people cant exatcly say its too "expensive" or takes to much "work". Suprised it didnt happen sooner.
It is not a good idea. What we should do is have police in some kind of centralised location and then some way of notifying them when anyone in their vicinity needs them and then some means by which they can get from the location to the incident. That way the police response can be proportionate and tailored to the level of threat while meeting the needs of the community more efficiently.
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just how many of these can happen in one year?
sick, 18 children... i mean... wtf
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Uh. The thread is the perfect place to have a debate about gun control. It isn't disrespectful at all to argue in favor of preventing future tragedies like these in the midst of such an event. So, while I express my deepest condolences to the families affected by this egregious crime, I must add that the header for this thread is dead wrong. Arguing for better gun control in the United States is NOT exploiting this tragedy.
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Saw something about this on the TV when I was in the learning commons at college.
Tragic stuff, Wish it was easier to prevent this kind of stuff without pissing off one side of the guns argument or the other.
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On December 15 2012 08:44 johanes wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 08:41 Reaps wrote:
I heard something on the news and someone suggested just putting one policeman in each school, is that not a good idea? i mean people cant exatcly say its too "expensive" or takes to much "work". Suprised it didnt happen sooner. And how would this help prevent situations like this?
I dont know, i thought it would be common sense, the policeman is alert'd of someone suspicious or even hear's shots, and he can rush to the scene to help?
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well i couldnt imagine how furious i would be with the school if my 5 yr old daughter (and yes i have an actual 5 yr old daughter) was point blank fired at. No words will get her back thats for sure, ill never know why they did it, but illl certainly want to know HOW the shooter got in so easy to point blank those kids. christ, im not posting any more on this, im not from america so not sure how accessible getting guns actually are, its rare to hear of shootings over here in the uk, there is of course gun crime but incidents are very few and far between.
sickened by this. As a human, im ashamed that our very being is actually capable of something like this
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On December 15 2012 08:48 kochanfe wrote:
Uh. The thread is the perfect place to have a debate about gun control. It isn't disrespectful at all to argue in favor of preventing future tragedies like these in the midst of such an event. So, while I express my deepest condolences to the families affected by this egregious crime, I must add that the header for this thread is dead wrong. Arguing for better gun control in the United States is NOT exploiting this tragedy.
The problem with this (as we have seen in similar threads) is it will derail the whole thread into something that have nothing to do with this specific event with people arguing whether or not guns kill people. It's better to have that discussion elsewhere.
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EPT
