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"Uprising" is very much the wrong term.
I strongly disagree with OPs claim that the average German has a "thorough understanding" of nazism and is well educated about it. Sure, children get preached to all the time about how nazis are bad, mkay, but that doesn't have a lot to do with understanding and education. I learned about 90 percent of what I really know about it in self-education. School teaches people about nazism like shocker images on packs of cigarettes teach you about smoking and health. Both very much have a point, but the efficacy of this approach and the knowledge it yields is very limited.
Second, it is a widely shared (also by the OP) belief that education is the antidote to extremism. That belief's basis in fact, i.e. social-psychological research, memory research, attitude psychology etc. is very poor. There is a relationship between education and fanaticism, but it is very far from being as strong and automatic as people believe. Many of the leading and mid-tier nazi personnel were academics.
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On November 13 2012 07:22 sc2superfan101 wrote:Illinois Nazis. I hate Illinois Nazis. + Show Spoiler +but this is really fucked up... any theories about what's causing it?
As always economic issues. Specifically instability in people's lives, more than actual wealth/poverty. That is the key characteristic of human psychology. That is why well designed social nets and other social programs that maintain stability of people's lives are so important. Without them extremists have much easier way to power. Also stability of the state itself of course. Just see Greece as to what happens when state starts to limit fulfilling of its stabilizing functions. Germany on the other hand is pretty much ok, some number of nationalists and racist is pretty much inevitable everywhere, especially in economic downturn.
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On November 13 2012 06:09 Grimmyman123 wrote:
The solution is simple, and it was done 67 years ago, but it was not maintained.
Demilitarize Germany like we did at the end of World War 2. Maintain and enforce a zero military policy. We didn't learn the first time after World War 1 and allowed germany to rearm itself, and look what happened. If Germany is allowed to be run by some radical group again, with their current military, its a problem.
For referrence, if you didn't know, Germany's military budget is EQUAL to Austria, Switzerland, Czech, Belguin, Poland, Finland, Sweden, Norway, and the Netherlands military budgets COMBINED. Take a look at that list of countries and their proximity to Germany. Scary isn't it?
After World War 1, and then World War 2, we should have learned. There should not have been a wall dividing Germany. There should have been a wall surrounding it.
So, that way it doesnt matter who leads Germany or what their views are. Let them scwabble among themselves.
(Yes, I know this is an extreme point of view and is not wholy realistic due to the need for a country to be able to defend itself. However, the statistics and numbers are a bit frightening when it comes to Germany's military budget, military size, and the country's past history of conflicts.)
your comment is quite racist on a side note.
and according to wikipedia germany's military budget is 1,3% of their gdp, less budget than both france's or the united kingdom's, while germany's gdp is about 50% higher.
btw if you isolate germany now the european market it will outright collapse.
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damn we got a thumping in this thread, thanks OP for misinformation
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On November 13 2012 07:43 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 07:22 sc2superfan101 wrote:Illinois Nazis. I hate Illinois Nazis. + Show Spoiler +but this is really fucked up... any theories about what's causing it? As always economic issues. Specifically instability in people's lives, more than actual wealth/poverty. That is the key characteristic of human psychology. That is why well designed social nets and other social programs that maintain stability of people's lives are so important. Without them extremists have much easier way to power. Also stability of the state itself of course. Just see Greece as to what happens when state starts to limit fulfilling of its stabilizing functions. Germany on the other hand is pretty much ok, some number of nationalists and racist is pretty much inevitable everywhere, especially in economic downturn.
Well at least someone came out with the truth. Welfare programs aren't meant to help the people they are supposed inasmuch as make them docile and obedient. Never mind the fact, that Welfare programs contribute significantly to economic malaise, since they encourage anti-economic behaviors (we're not even talking the immorality of stealing from one person to give to another, yet).
I also would yield to the fact that from 1776 to roughly the 1930s we didn't have much if any Welfare programs in the U.S. by the Government. Most people were members of mutual Aid-Societies and other assistance organizations which fulfill the actual function of HELPING the folks who need it most, instead of creating docile, impotent, serfs that State-Welfarism does. You better vote for me, or ELSE!
As H.L. Mencken observed:
“Every election is a sort of advance auction sale of stolen goods.”
PS: Anything other than status-quo is in fact, not necessarily 'extremist'. What a farce.
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I have the feeling some of the ppl here are in denial.
The FES is a well known foundation that is very respected in the science-world. It's not propaganda and its not a Super-Pac. One of the reasons this foundation get money from the government is duo to the fact that they are objective when it comes to their researches.
So no "left-wing blabla"!!!
They make this report every year and they noticed that the number of ppl having negative thoughts about immigrants and jews have gone up. These are numbers, but they are indicating that extreme right views become more accepted in the middle of the german society.
Not more, not less. Germany isnt a nazi-country because of this, but its also nothing to ignore.
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On November 13 2012 00:12 kafkaesque wrote:
- German / Nazi related jokes
Jew mad? I gas so. Ok sorry that was bad I'll not go any fuhrer.
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On November 13 2012 07:40 FrogOfWar wrote:
"Uprising" is very much the wrong term.
I strongly disagree with OPs claim that the average German has a "thorough understanding" of nazism and is well educated about it. Sure, children get preached to all the time about how nazis are bad, mkay, but that doesn't have a lot to do with understanding and education. I learned about 90 percent of what I really know about it in self-education. School teaches people about nazism like shocker images on packs of cigarettes teach you about smoking and health. Both very much have a point, but the efficacy of this approach and the knowledge it yields is very limited.
Second, it is a widely shared (also by the OP) belief that education is the antidote to extremism. That belief's basis in fact, i.e. social-psychological research, memory research, attitude psychology etc. is very poor. There is a relationship between education and fanaticism, but it is very far from being as strong and automatic as people believe. Many of the leading and mid-tier nazi personnel were academics.
Extremism is a rather mobile concept, it is more or less political jargon for anti-establishment or non-comformist politics. The Pilgrim fathers would have been extremists in England, while Roger Williams and Anne Hutchinson would have been extremists in Massachusetts. The Social Democrats and Zentrum were the extremists in Bismarck's Germany, while by 1914 they became mass political parties.
Now the German constitution has inherent checks against extremism, and sought to stabilise politics in the Middle. It has done a remarkably successful job of it in the last 70 years. The spiritual ancestor of the NDP, the DP was a mainstream party, largely representing the interests of ex-veterans in Germany. It became defunct in the 1960's. The Social Democratic Party too, abandoned Marxism after the Godesberger Programme and drew towards the centre. In other words, since 1949 the political spectrum in German politics had not only stabilised, but contracted. There are five parties in Germany today in parliament, but the differences between them, possibly apart from the Linke, are minute in historical terms.
What would have been normal even in 1960 is now straddling the zones of extremism in our new definition of it. The Germans, being what they are, are not making too much noise about meeting somewhere in that ubiquitous grey zone. As Kaiser Wilhelm used to say before the war: there will be no revolution in Germany, because in Germany revolutions are strictly forbidden.
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On November 13 2012 07:48 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 07:43 mcc wrote:On November 13 2012 07:22 sc2superfan101 wrote:Illinois Nazis. I hate Illinois Nazis. + Show Spoiler +but this is really fucked up... any theories about what's causing it? As always economic issues. Specifically instability in people's lives, more than actual wealth/poverty. That is the key characteristic of human psychology. That is why well designed social nets and other social programs that maintain stability of people's lives are so important. Without them extremists have much easier way to power. Also stability of the state itself of course. Just see Greece as to what happens when state starts to limit fulfilling of its stabilizing functions. Germany on the other hand is pretty much ok, some number of nationalists and racist is pretty much inevitable everywhere, especially in economic downturn. Well at least someone came out with the truth. Welfare programs aren't meant to help the people they are supposed inasmuch as make them docile and obedient. Never mind the fact, that Welfare programs contribute significantly to economic malaise, since they encourage anti-economic behaviors (we're not even talking the immorality of stealing from one person to give to another, yet). I also would yield to the fact that from 1776 to roughly the 1930s we didn't have much if any Welfare programs in the U.S. by the Government. Most people were members of mutual Aid-Societies and other assistance organizations which fulfill the actual function of HELPING the folks who need it most, instead of creating docile, impotent, serfs that State-Welfarism does. You better vote for me, or ELSE! As H.L. Mencken observed:
Yes I know, in your lala-imaginary-land taxes are stealing and empirical reality is less important than ideology. Welfare programs are supposed to help people and by doing so prevent people from becoming desperate enough to start supporting extremists and becoming violent. Both goals are important. Plus there is quite a big body of evidence that well designed social programs are actually very important for economic activity and growth. Welfare states came to be when people had the freedom you price so highly, but willingly and violently demanded it be exchanged for decent and stable life. We all know how idyllic 1776-1930 was in either US or Europe.
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On November 13 2012 07:55 esperanto wrote:
I have the feeling some of the ppl here are in denial.
The FES is a well known foundation that is very respected in the science-world. It's not propaganda and its not a Super-Pac. One of the reasons this foundation get money from the government is duo to the fact that they are objective when it comes to their researches.
So no "left-wing blabla"!!!
They make this report every year and they noticed that the number of ppl having negative thoughts about immigrants and jews have gone up. These are numbers, but they are indicating that extreme right views become more accepted in the middle of the german society.
Not more, not less. Germany isnt a nazi-country because of this, but its also nothing to ignore.
Nah seriously get your facts straight, dear god. The OP suggests nearly 10% of the voting population to be straight up nazis. You know the stuff with admiring the Third Reich, social darwinism, expanding the country, gas chambers and stuff. I wonder where all these people are as they hardly can be seen. Right wing nuts mobilize around 200 people for their demonstrations in reality. When did some hundred loons actually became 10% of the voting population. If you somehow think nazi thinking actually made it to the middle of society, you are the one in denial, it is really as simple as that.
And no the Stiftung is not respected in the science world. You will virtually never find articles published in scientific journals, simply because much of its work is influenced by political dogma. This goes for all these Stiftungen by the way.
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On November 13 2012 07:55 esperanto wrote:
I have the feeling some of the ppl here are in denial.
The FES is a well known foundation that is very respected in the science-world. It's not propaganda and its not a Super-Pac. One of the reasons this foundation get money from the government is duo to the fact that they are objective when it comes to their researches.
So no "left-wing blabla"!!!
They make this report every year and they noticed that the number of ppl having negative thoughts about immigrants and jews have gone up. These are numbers, but they are indicating that extreme right views become more accepted in the middle of the german society.
Not more, not less. Germany isnt a nazi-country because of this, but its also nothing to ignore.
From the OP, people might get the impression that the FES claims 9 percent of Germans would approve of national socialism. That would be wrong. If you ask people if they approve of national socialism, I doubt you'd get 1 percent approval, because that question would trigger all alarms. Rather, these studies ask for attitudes, like do you think it would be best to have a strong leader, do you think foreigners tend to exploit us, do you think Germany is superior to other countries and the like. And that's what's dangerous about it. These attitudes flourish under the surface in otherwise "normal" people, they often aren't immediately visible, and many people with extreme right-wing attitudes don't even see themselves as exteme right-wingers. (One indication is if someone regards mainstream media as far-left.)
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On November 13 2012 08:05 AngryMag wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 07:55 esperanto wrote:
I have the feeling some of the ppl here are in denial.
The FES is a well known foundation that is very respected in the science-world. It's not propaganda and its not a Super-Pac. One of the reasons this foundation get money from the government is duo to the fact that they are objective when it comes to their researches.
So no "left-wing blabla"!!!
They make this report every year and they noticed that the number of ppl having negative thoughts about immigrants and jews have gone up. These are numbers, but they are indicating that extreme right views become more accepted in the middle of the german society.
Not more, not less. Germany isnt a nazi-country because of this, but its also nothing to ignore.
Nah seriously get your facts straight, dear god. The OP suggests nearly 10% of the voting population to be straight up nazis. You know the stuff with admiring the Third Reich, social darwinism, expanding the country, gas chambers and stuff. I wonder where all these people are as they hardly can be seen. Right wing nuts mobilize around 200 people for their demonstrations in reality. When did some hundred loons actually became 10% of the voting population. If you somehow think nazi thinking actually made it to the middle of society, you are the one in denial, it is really as simple as that. And no the Stiftung is not respected in the science world. You will virtually never find articles published in scientific journals, simply because much of its work is influenced by political dogma. This goes for all these Stiftungen by the way.
Lol, see? No, right-wing extremism does not imply straight-out admiring the third reich and gas chambers. Not at all. OP should have made that clear.
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this discussion is pointless.
sorry, but its just stupid to claim that 9% of all germans are nazis when we have less than 2% voting for right-wing parties.
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Seriously the title of this needs to be changed by either op or mods.
Providing additonal information in the OP should be done too. People actually only ready the first post/site and actually take this fox news level exaggeration serious as reflected in the replies that go up to suggesting demilitarizing germany (wtf???).
OP should be ashamed to spread such half truths that make us look way worse than we are, as a german, i feel ashamed of how you make us look.
On November 13 2012 07:55 esperanto wrote:
I have the feeling some of the ppl here are in denial.
The FES is a well known foundation that is very respected in the science-world. It's not propaganda and its not a Super-Pac. One of the reasons this foundation get money from the government is duo to the fact that they are objective when it comes to their researches.
So no "left-wing blabla"!!!
I have the feeling you are in more than denial or you dont live in germany. FES is a good foundation generally, ive even done volunteer work for them.
But this is downright nothing short of fearmongering. about 10 % sympathise with NPD? I want you to go outside now and start asking people, you wont get 9 out of a 100 on an average, straight out bullshit.
a lot of people here think they get 9 % of votes
http://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/208353/umfrage/wahlergebnisse-der-npd-in-den-bundeslaendern/http://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/208353/umfrage/wahlergebnisse-der-npd-in-den-bundeslaendern/
that are numbers, and compared to all the right parties in other countries in europe, thats LOW, now stop spreading bullshit about a "NAZI UPRISING".
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Having read through most of questions, I honestly believe that with these questions and these criteria for defining nazis the german results are not far from what even the most open-minded societies/states in this world would achieve.
If interest exists, i might translate some -what I think are- key points for this, but I dont have time for this today.
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On November 13 2012 08:11 cari-kira wrote:
this discussion is pointless.
sorry, but its just stupid to claim that 9% of all germans are nazis when we have less than 2% voting for right-wing parties.
Sorry, but it's just stupid to dismiss a claim without even understanding what is being claimed. Having extreme right-wing
attitudes != being a Nazi.
We agree on this being pointless though.
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On November 13 2012 08:14 Mafe wrote:
Having read through most of questions, I honestly believe that with these questions and these criteria for defining nazis the german results are not far from what even the most open-minded societies/states in this world would achieve.
Of course, they do. Germany doesn't have more right-wingers than other comparable countries.
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On November 13 2012 08:11 FrogOfWar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 08:05 AngryMag wrote:On November 13 2012 07:55 esperanto wrote:
I have the feeling some of the ppl here are in denial.
The FES is a well known foundation that is very respected in the science-world. It's not propaganda and its not a Super-Pac. One of the reasons this foundation get money from the government is duo to the fact that they are objective when it comes to their researches.
So no "left-wing blabla"!!!
They make this report every year and they noticed that the number of ppl having negative thoughts about immigrants and jews have gone up. These are numbers, but they are indicating that extreme right views become more accepted in the middle of the german society.
Not more, not less. Germany isnt a nazi-country because of this, but its also nothing to ignore.
Nah seriously get your facts straight, dear god. The OP suggests nearly 10% of the voting population to be straight up nazis. You know the stuff with admiring the Third Reich, social darwinism, expanding the country, gas chambers and stuff. I wonder where all these people are as they hardly can be seen. Right wing nuts mobilize around 200 people for their demonstrations in reality. When did some hundred loons actually became 10% of the voting population. If you somehow think nazi thinking actually made it to the middle of society, you are the one in denial, it is really as simple as that. And no the Stiftung is not respected in the science world. You will virtually never find articles published in scientific journals, simply because much of its work is influenced by political dogma. This goes for all these Stiftungen by the way. Lol, see? No, right-wing extremism does not imply straight-out admiring the third reich and gas chambers. Not at all. OP should have made that clear.
I see you did not bother to look at the actual study in question. Yes it actually covers the question if you would support a rightwing dictatorship. Yes it covers the questions like Antisemitism and social darwinism. Such questions are basically the international go-to guide in rightwing extremism research. Support for these questions is actually around 3% in this respective study and not 9, how the OP actually implies. Funny ideas some people might actually come up with to describe right wing extremism (like linking chauvinism to rightwing extremism, like actually done in this study wtf??) are pretty irrelevant in regard of the international scientific consense.
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On November 13 2012 08:13 freewareplayer wrote:Seriously the title of this needs to be changed by either op or mods. Providing additonal information in the OP should be done too. People actually only ready the first post/site and actually take this fox news level exaggeration serious as reflected in the replies that go up to suggesting demilitarizing germany (wtf???). OP should be ashamed to spread such half truths that make us look way worse than we are, as a german, i feel ashamed of how you make us look. Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 07:55 esperanto wrote:
I have the feeling some of the ppl here are in denial.
The FES is a well known foundation that is very respected in the science-world. It's not propaganda and its not a Super-Pac. One of the reasons this foundation get money from the government is duo to the fact that they are objective when it comes to their researches.
So no "left-wing blabla"!!!
I have the feeling you are in more than denial or you dont live in germany. FES is a good foundation generally, ive even done volunteer work for them. But this is downright nothing short of fearmongering. about 10 % sympathise with NPD? I want you to go outside now and start asking people, you wont get 9 out of a 100 on an average, straight out bullshit. a lot of people here think they get 9 % of votes http://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/208353/umfrage/wahlergebnisse-der-npd-in-den-bundeslaendern/http://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/208353/umfrage/wahlergebnisse-der-npd-in-den-bundeslaendern/ that are numbers, and compared to all the right parties in other countries in europe, thats LOW, now stop spreading bullshit about a "NAZI UPRISING".
The FES paper does not in any way say that 10% would support the NPD. The paper only says that according to their research the number of ppl in germany with extreme right-wing views about immigrants and jews has gone up from 8.2% (2010) to 9%.
Of course the OP is overreacting here and the title could be changed.
But I find the fact that right wing views have become more accepted in germany quite disturbing and I dont want to ignore this.
And of course you can see this in everydays life, especially when even books from Sarrazin are always a #1 bestseller. Extreme right-wing crime has also gone up 2,2% from 2011.
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On November 13 2012 08:30 esperanto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 08:13 freewareplayer wrote:Seriously the title of this needs to be changed by either op or mods. Providing additonal information in the OP should be done too. People actually only ready the first post/site and actually take this fox news level exaggeration serious as reflected in the replies that go up to suggesting demilitarizing germany (wtf???). OP should be ashamed to spread such half truths that make us look way worse than we are, as a german, i feel ashamed of how you make us look. On November 13 2012 07:55 esperanto wrote:
I have the feeling some of the ppl here are in denial.
The FES is a well known foundation that is very respected in the science-world. It's not propaganda and its not a Super-Pac. One of the reasons this foundation get money from the government is duo to the fact that they are objective when it comes to their researches.
So no "left-wing blabla"!!!
I have the feeling you are in more than denial or you dont live in germany. FES is a good foundation generally, ive even done volunteer work for them. But this is downright nothing short of fearmongering. about 10 % sympathise with NPD? I want you to go outside now and start asking people, you wont get 9 out of a 100 on an average, straight out bullshit. a lot of people here think they get 9 % of votes http://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/208353/umfrage/wahlergebnisse-der-npd-in-den-bundeslaendern/http://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/208353/umfrage/wahlergebnisse-der-npd-in-den-bundeslaendern/ that are numbers, and compared to all the right parties in other countries in europe, thats LOW, now stop spreading bullshit about a "NAZI UPRISING". The FES paper does not in any way say that 10% would support the NPD. The paper only says that according to their research the number of ppl in germany with extreme right-wing views about immigrants and jews has gone up from 8.2% (2010) to 9%. Of course the OP is overreacting here and the title could be changed.
"the title could be changed" lol
Imagine your not actually from germany, and theres a topic named " Nazi uprising in present Germany"
seriously what the actual fuck? I am honestly outraged at this, dont get what that dude was thinking when he came up with that title, unless hes trolling, nevermind the more than dodgy content.
And no 9 % of people do not have "extreme right-wing views" someone who is EXTREME and RIGHT, could very well be seen as having Sympathy for the NPD, if not, then probably only cause the NPD is not extreme enough for them. Check AngryMags post a few post back to check some of the stuff thats included in the survey, or better, actually read the items in it.
To you as well, go out on the streets tomorrow, and go ask people about " EXTREME right views", if you get 9 / 100 with that, im actually delivering a cookie to your doorstep.
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EPT
