For referrence, if you didn't know, Germany's military budget is EQUAL to Austria, Switzerland, Czech, Belguin, Poland, Finland, Sweden, Norway, and the Netherlands military budgets COMBINED. Take a look at that list of countries and their proximity to Germany. Scary isn't it?
If you didn´t know, combine the population or area of these countries and Germany is bigger.
For obvious reasons you forgot poland (larger per capita), sweden((larger per capita) Poland (larger per capita) and France (larger per capita). Compared to the position of influence Germany commands in the world the military is Laughable.
That is, and never was the power of Germany it was industry and education.
On November 13 2012 06:19 BBS wrote: To put things in a perspective: He quotes a left-wing magazine that refers to a left-wing socialist party's think tank. And that his username referes to a left wing writer does the rest, right? Don't let him fool you. In times of economic troubles, people always tend to vote for extermists (see Greece). But there certainly is no relation toward a long-term trend or as he might try to imply to a revival or nazi ideologies.
On November 13 2012 00:12 kafkaesque wrote: Hey guys,
given Germany's history, one should think that even the most idiotic and uneducated Germans recognize Hitler's regime for what it was. However, as long as I've been able to read news, Neonazis are gaining in numbers and political strength.
A recent study by the Friedrich Ebert Stiftung, a foundation to promote democracy, has shown that an alarming number of Germans, to be precise: 9%, embrace far right political views an sympathize with the Nazi-Party or its (rather pathetic and ineffectual) reincarnation: NPD.
In East Germany, the structurally weaker ex-GDR, the numbers are downright terrifying: During the past two years, the number of far right-wings has been more than doubled, from 6.6 to more than 15%. Which makes these numbers more alarming is that those who have been indoctrinated by the original Nazis are virtually extinct, so we're speaking of an entirely new generation of Nazis.
Surely these Neo-Nazis are misled by a cunning political entity?
Far from it. The NPD is a joke, it's not even worth mentioning. Although they have representation in 2/16 state parliaments, with no representation in the federal government, it is extremely hard to take them seriously. Their public appearances are clumsy, borderline comical, and attest a chaotic, haphazard political program without clear direction.
Why is this problematic?
If you grow up in Germany, you will be thoroughly educated about the Nazi Party. The history of the Third Reich is mandatory part of your historical education and secondary schools frequently have week-long projects to further awareness of the horrors of Hitler's Germany. Chances are, you will at one point visit one of the concentration camps of Buchenwald or Auschwitz and schools go through great lenghts to get jewish orators who have witnessed Nazi Germany first hand. History programs on TV eat up that chapter as well and the Federal Agency for Civic Education offers a plethora of different magazines for free so one can educate oneself even further.
Against this background, it seems unthinkable that anyone could embrace Nazi ideals, because it's virtually impossible to grow up in Germany and not have a rather thorough understanding of them.
How do other Germans deal with these issues?
German constitution gives anyone including the Nazis the right for public assembly, NPD-member ofttimes gather in large numbers to March for their misguided cause and try to recruit members.
Obviously, the rest of Germany isn't oblivious to those assemblies and since the right-wing-extremists are vastly outnumbered, usually peaceful protest prevents them from marching.
Personal opinion
To be perfectly clear, I don't suggest that in 10 years time we'll go about killing Jews and invading Poland again, I just want to express my anger and sadness that despite comprehensive educational matters and in times of peace of properity, there grows a new generation of antisemetic, antiislamic and antidemocratic young people who sympathise with the demonic Nazi regime.
Points of discussion
- German / Nazi related jokes - Speculation of sources (educational, economic, political etc.) - Right-wing extremists in your own country - etc.
I am with you, dude. Unfortunately nobody cares, damage is done Just look some posts above yours.... I would like to know how such a misleading, unbalanced and simply untrue thread is open for so long. Mods should really edit it..
On November 13 2012 06:17 PlaGuE_R wrote: The french far-right political party is also gaining support, they had 20% of votes last presidential election. TWENTY. so yeah. I blame the fact that immigrants nowadays refuse to assimilate and accept the culture of the country they come into. Best example is those sallafists. Not to mention that European Union's open borders means that the people in poorer European countries will come into the countries that are wealthier, like the Romanichels in France.
No offense, but why should they? French people themselves are notorious for failing to assimilate in foreign countries. Europe as a whole is a racist mess.
Does that mean that French people abroad that don't assimilate, it's ok, but they come here and it's not ok? Is THAT what you got from my post?
Let's say that was what I meant to say, I admit that when we go to say...Malaysia, we bring our deep rooted traditions of terrible treatment to women, our general hatred for anything that is not of our religion, our rituals of killing animals in the street. We also force the general population to eat halal even though they are agaisnt it. We go around and are the largest demographic to cause crime, we vandalize mosques because they're not christian holy grounds, we hold parades where all the french people hold up banners saying that Malaysia and all Asia will burn before our mighty onslaught and you are all infidels. Need I go on?
When CIVILIZED people move to another country they either assimilate or they keep to their own without being disruptive of the culture there.
On November 13 2012 06:09 Grimmyman123 wrote: The solution is simple, and it was done 67 years ago, but it was not maintained.
Demilitarize Germany like we did at the end of World War 2. Maintain and enforce a zero military policy. We didn't learn the first time after World War 1 and allowed germany to rearm itself, and look what happened. If Germany is allowed to be run by some radical group again, with their current military, its a problem.
For referrence, if you didn't know, Germany's military budget is EQUAL to Austria, Switzerland, Czech, Belguin, Poland, Finland, Sweden, Norway, and the Netherlands military budgets COMBINED. Take a look at that list of countries and their proximity to Germany. Scary isn't it?
After World War 1, and then World War 2, we should have learned. There should not have been a wall dividing Germany. There should have been a wall surrounding it.
So, that way it doesnt matter who leads Germany or what their views are. Let them scwabble among themselves.
(Yes, I know this is an extreme point of view and is not wholy realistic due to the need for a country to be able to defend itself. However, the statistics and numbers are a bit frightening when it comes to Germany's military budget, military size, and the country's past history of conflicts.)
trolling? im actually dead srious believe it or not.its just you being unable to understand something that is different and new to you. and yes i am german
and i'm really interested in what the hell is going on with you. You can't really expect someone to reply to your posts seriously. You call yourself a nazi which is in itself idiotic enough and then you even say you don't share the core opinions of that ideology in the same sentence, which is totally absurd.
its not idiotic. its honest and takes a bit of courage too in current times. and what is so hard to believe about someone thinking he is something without being able to explain exactly why and maybe not even knowing it himself.. isnt life a search for ones self for all of us to some extent. im just halfway done wiht this journey apparently
Then I would simply suggest you to actually put the time in to evaluate and examinate your core believes. Just take time and read "Mein Kampf". You will realize that racism in NS ideology is inherent. As you describe yourself as non racist this should lead to looking for something different.
just like any ideology its not comepltely linear. just like the koran mein kampf is open to interprertation. also i will not read that filth for it is racist and extremist which is horrible in my opinion. i already stated why i like to consider myself a nazi which is that it gives me a sense of belonging. dont really see the problem in that. there are many "christians" or members of the church who dont believe in god but are still members of the church for reasons not associated witht the core belief of the institution.
unfortunately for you, your political affiliation was responsible for one of the most horrific act and continues to do horrible things in small scale. It is naive for you to think that people would accept your ideology especially when you guys didnt even bother to change the friggin name Nazi. That name alone is insulting enough on human race in 21st century.
you can argue about crusade and Christians but since then they have moved on from hatred towards peace and acceptance. Exactly opposite of your views
DONT forget child abuse... and im used to people getting caught up on me being a nazi. but oh well in a world full of prejudice and ideological prosecution it does get tough at times
?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!????!!?!?!?!???
on topic: Hungary? Nationalism with NeoNazi tendencies right on the border of the EU...
There will be no uprising of Neonazis in Germany for the next 10 years. I promise ^^
On November 13 2012 06:09 Grimmyman123 wrote: The solution is simple, and it was done 67 years ago, but it was not maintained.
Demilitarize Germany like we did at the end of World War 2. Maintain and enforce a zero military policy. We didn't learn the first time after World War 1 and allowed germany to rearm itself, and look what happened. If Germany is allowed to be run by some radical group again, with their current military, its a problem.
For referrence, if you didn't know, Germany's military budget is EQUAL to Austria, Switzerland, Czech, Belguin, Poland, Finland, Sweden, Norway, and the Netherlands military budgets COMBINED. Take a look at that list of countries and their proximity to Germany. Scary isn't it?
After World War 1, and then World War 2, we should have learned. There should not have been a wall dividing Germany. There should have been a wall surrounding it.
So, that way it doesnt matter who leads Germany or what their views are. Let them scwabble among themselves.
(Yes, I know this is an extreme point of view and is not wholy realistic due to the need for a country to be able to defend itself. However, the statistics and numbers are a bit frightening when it comes to Germany's military budget, military size, and the country's past history of conflicts.)
Fuck yeah, we're too dangerous for this world.
LOL, Classic. Shit, if any country on the planet right now has too much firepower and a track record for picking fights I don't think it would be Germany.
On November 13 2012 06:09 Grimmyman123 wrote: The solution is simple, and it was done 67 years ago, but it was not maintained.
Demilitarize Germany like we did at the end of World War 2. Maintain and enforce a zero military policy. We didn't learn the first time after World War 1 and allowed germany to rearm itself, and look what happened. If Germany is allowed to be run by some radical group again, with their current military, its a problem.
For referrence, if you didn't know, Germany's military budget is EQUAL to Austria, Switzerland, Czech, Belguin, Poland, Finland, Sweden, Norway, and the Netherlands military budgets COMBINED. Take a look at that list of countries and their proximity to Germany. Scary isn't it?
After World War 1, and then World War 2, we should have learned. There should not have been a wall dividing Germany. There should have been a wall surrounding it.
So, that way it doesnt matter who leads Germany or what their views are. Let them scwabble among themselves.
(Yes, I know this is an extreme point of view and is not wholy realistic due to the need for a country to be able to defend itself. However, the statistics and numbers are a bit frightening when it comes to Germany's military budget, military size, and the country's past history of conflicts.)
Fuck yeah, we're too dangerous for this world.
Maybe a glorious fight to the last man is preferable to getting replaced by immigrants. Lets hope they dont nuke us in the first few days of our new world war 3.
15% is not halve as bad as the 25% of france who supports the front national. (france historically also is way more antisemite then germany i have been told, though i dont know how much truth is in this)
Its impossible to have a decent discussion about this further unfortunatly, the subject is way to controversial to say annything objective about it.
On November 13 2012 04:20 DeepElemBlues wrote:go ron paul etc because he cares for us
Couldn't really have put it better, politicians in this country try so very, very hard to look like they can connect with the populace and fail just as hard. If they put as much effort into actually giving a fuck who knows what they could achieve...
it's not only politicians who see fringe parties as fringe.
On November 13 2012 04:49 farvacola wrote:
On November 13 2012 04:41 MoltkeWarding wrote:
On November 13 2012 03:28 schaf wrote: I think in Germany the whole WW2 education backfired a bit. I agree it has to be done and it's good that we get it in school a lot. But when I was growing up (mid 20s now), it felt like being German is actually a bad thing. You get constantly confronted with the horros and of the past and their guilt. My parents were not a particular help in that regard either as they were heavily influenced by the hippie movement. So, if you grow up in that environment every identification with your nation is basically taken from you (might seem a bit extreme, but with me that was the case) and if you want to be a non-conformist or a rebel in school, you look for things that are 'forbidden'.
The NPD is a joke. But they actually have a good strategy. They do offers for young people in areas where there is nothing else, do free jurisdictional advice for unemployed people, do community festivals - and the people buy it. It works.
All in all, I wouldn't call all followers of the NPD as Neo-Nazis.
And there are countries who have a much more severe problem with this, for example Russia (yes!):
When I first visited Berlin several years ago, I stood under the Brandenburger Tor, with a plaque detailing the glorious events of March 1848, supposed to remind us of the best political traditions of Germany's ancestors, in contrast to 1870 and 1933. The plaque commemorated Germany's first liberal-democrats, how they rose up for their rights against an authoritarian regime, how they for a wrinkle in time seized the destiny of the nation and seemed to propel it to a hopeful future.
This is the kind of dogma, half naive, half ridiculous, which is being commonly propagated as "History" in Germany today, in classrooms, media and the popular imagination. The National Assembly which assembled in Frankfurt in 1848 eventually perished under the duress of its own national radicalism, and was forced to prostitute itself out to Frederick William IV, who wound up protecting his "democrats" from the people, but rightly refused to pick his crown up from the gutter. No one today will teach 1848 as an object lesson in the failures of historical German liberalism and constitutionalism, an episode whose multifaceted complexities, by the way, would have been more profoundly understood under the classical curricula of such authoritarian regimes as Bismarck's Prussia or Hitler's National Socialist Germany than by the historically tone-deaf people of today.
It is being trumpeted as a milestone event in the progress of Germany because national curriculum of self-censorship has practically eradicated all other political achievements from German memory. It has painted the sweep of Germany with a broad brush and, while subscribing to the Sonderweg theory that all of Germany's history must be read under the dim shadow of the Third Reich, occasionally pretends to promote Germany's Western legacy by citing and mis-citing such episodes as the March Revolution or Operation Walküre. This kind of post ex-facto ideological manipulation exists all over the place. The German Biedermeier is more properly the teleological Vormärz, the War Credits vote of the SPD in 1914 is now seen as an departure from political norms in German history, rather than its conformity to it.
This is all perhaps only ephemerally relevant to the issue at hand. Looking at the OP, however, and reading the report by the Friederich-Ebert-Stiftung, it's obvious that some things are being misrepresented. In the Spiegel-polls, the NDP does not command enough support to enter any State parliament in Germany apart from Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, where the polls show them at 6%. The Survey of the Friedrich-Ebert-Stiftung has a list of questions so leading, that sometimes an answer which reveals a discerning historical understanding will be registered ideologically as “Rechtsextrem”
i.e.
Question 1:
Im nationalen Interesse ist unter bestimmten Umständen eine Diktatur die bessere Staatsform
Quite apart from the fact that this question betrays a lack of understanding as to what Dictatorship is, a classical scholar who admires Sulla might agree to this statement, and be labelled an extremist. The leading clause is the stipulation “unter bestimmten Umständen,” which vastly inflates the number of people who will be labelled inaccurately.
Question 2:
Ohne Judenvernichtung würde man Hitler heute als großen Staatsmann ansehen.
The leading aspect of this question is raised by its very hypothetical nature. You might as well ask if Hitler behaved as Mother Theresa, would he be seen as a saint today? The question is deliberately drawing on the great Hitler-biographer Joachim Fest's assertion in the introduction of his 1974 biography: Shall we call him great?
Fest asserted in his biograhpy that had Hitler died in 1938, he would have gone down in history as the greatest of German statesmen, surpassing Bismarck. These are debatable, but not trivial postulations. Yet under the consideration of the F-E-Stiftung, a lifelong bourgeois conservative like Fest would have been labelled an extremist.
The list goes on and on, deducing folly from folly. Finally all this “information” is reduced to a number ready for publication. After a long, exhaustive, methodological study, the final results conclude that the percentage of people holding extreme-right attitudes in Germany have grown from 6.6 percent to 15.8 percent. People are shocked. New resolutions are made from the left to accelerate the social and mental terraforming of the nation. We have to make German history even more mendacious and crude. We have to educate people better. We have to address socio-economic inequality.
Call me old-fashioned, but I have a better thermometer of measuring the presence of extremism in modern life. I go on the internet and see which people are going into a crazed frenzy calling everything else extreme.
This post was a highly enjoyable read, I recommend everyone read this before thinking too hard on the "evidence" presented in the OP.
disagree. the more 'thoughtful' the more pernicious when it comes to a defense of reactionary thinking. on a tactical level there may be an argument of turning to a more content based examination of the ideas and histories, rather than using sanctions and labels. however, at the same time the shadow of those ideas and histories is quite concrete no matter which approach.
for people who think it's okay, or even glorious, the examination has already been done and they are overruled. they should be condemned with pleasure, and that's all.
Shadows are not concrete. And there is always the most compelling argument of all for having the full picture of history. Sanctions and labels are simply a way to make the shadow you prefer as "concrete" as possible, with regard for the truth being a secondary concern if a concern at all.
Yes, thoughtful criticisms are more dangerous to an interpretation or opinion than those that are not, I don't see what your point is besides saying that what you think is so true and right that people should just turn their brains off and enjoy the sanctions and labels they're being fed.
shadows is the word because it was used in a scary scary sense to trivialize concrete history. the shadow of the third reich, for instance, is quite concrete.
there is no shortage of factual determination of the issue. there is however a distinct need for moral sanctions of the sort that prevents the moral stance against what nazis did and stood for from becoming arguable, relativizable, etc.
The real absurdity of democratic fanaticism is that they are always pretending that what's unpopular is too dangerously popular, and what's popular is lamentably unpopular. There's a kind of ethical self-satisfaction in the knowledge that you are an advocate of something that needs to be said, and yet the only people to whom you say them are ones who already agree with you. What we need is the easy moral satisfaction of being right without the hard work of learning.
In other words, if oneofthem had lived in the Third Reich, he would have understood all about the predatory innuendo of the Jewish press, and lamented the lack of foresight in his fellow citizens in spotting out the Jewish danger. Never mind whether or not he knew anything about Jews, their culture, history or theology.
For some reason people nowadays are always imagining themselves to be mentally ahead of the curve while they're just straggling along.
On November 13 2012 06:05 Blackfeather wrote: after getting to know somebody who was part of the right movement for some time i have to say that the way we see this development from the outside is wrong.
while being even more retarded, the npd is not the nsdap, meaning they dont proclaim to kill all jews and start a war but represent themselves as a right winged not anti-democratic party. That's enough for many to make them electable.
What makes them pick up members is that they essentially try to say is that they think that Germans should have better jobs than non Germans in Germany, a thought that while racist and small-minded, draws lots of attention by the poor and uneducated who begrudge people who have more and are looking for a scapegoat. Which is exactly why they are stronger in the east.
In the same way you could ask why the left extreme party gets any votes, being the successors of the sed. Both parties get votes from those who lack education, so focusing this late in school wont help at all. Changing the school system into something more motivating or programs to increase the job chances of the guys who skipped school is probably the way to go.
trolling? im actually dead srious believe it or not.its just you being unable to understand something that is different and new to you. and yes i am german
and i'm really interested in what the hell is going on with you. You can't really expect someone to reply to your posts seriously. You call yourself a nazi which is in itself idiotic enough and then you even say you don't share the core opinions of that ideology in the same sentence, which is totally absurd.
its not idiotic. its honest and takes a bit of courage too in current times. and what is so hard to believe about someone thinking he is something without being able to explain exactly why and maybe not even knowing it himself.. isnt life a search for ones self for all of us to some extent. im just halfway done wiht this journey apparently
Then I would simply suggest you to actually put the time in to evaluate and examinate your core believes. Just take time and read "Mein Kampf". You will realize that racism in NS ideology is inherent. As you describe yourself as non racist this should lead to looking for something different.
just like any ideology its not comepltely linear. just like the koran mein kampf is open to interprertation. also i will not read that filth for it is racist and extremist which is horrible in my opinion. i already stated why i like to consider myself a nazi which is that it gives me a sense of belonging. dont really see the problem in that. there are many "christians" or members of the church who dont believe in god but are still members of the church for reasons not associated witht the core belief of the institution.
unfortunately for you, your political affiliation was responsible for one of the most horrific act and continues to do horrible things in small scale. It is naive for you to think that people would accept your ideology especially when you guys didnt even bother to change the friggin name Nazi. That name alone is insulting enough on human race in 21st century.
you can argue about crusade and Christians but since then they have moved on from hatred towards peace and acceptance. Exactly opposite of your views
DONT forget child abuse... and im used to people getting caught up on me being a nazi. but oh well in a world full of prejudice and ideological prosecution it does get tough at times
your comparison is legit, the church committed genocides and burnings of minorities too. On the other hand the child abuses while being something that is probably the result of the celibacy, are not something the church as an institution encourages but pretty much the deeds of individual persons. The church has moral basics that to some extend are positive and has tried in the last few hundred years to do some things to make up for the crap they did. I fail to see how the same can be said for nazis, especially since nazi is a word that was created exclusively to describe followers of Hitler, whom you seem to condemn. Nazi does not equal being a nationalist and a socialist at the same time, but being a follower of Hitlers agenda.
apparentaly our understanding what makes out a nazi differ. i will limit my reply to this as i was kindly asked by TL staff to quit posting in the manner i have over the past hours. i had a great time discussing my identity with my fellow TLers. gg
On November 13 2012 06:17 PlaGuE_R wrote: The french far-right political party is also gaining support, they had 20% of votes last presidential election. TWENTY. so yeah. I blame the fact that immigrants nowadays refuse to assimilate and accept the culture of the country they come into. Best example is those sallafists. Not to mention that European Union's open borders means that the people in poorer European countries will come into the countries that are wealthier, like the Romanichels in France.
No offense, but why should they? French people themselves are notorious for failing to assimilate in foreign countries. Europe as a whole is a racist mess.
If you're really from Malaysia, what the fuck do you know about Europe? Don't accuse us if you provide no evidence.
On November 13 2012 06:05 Blackfeather wrote: after getting to know somebody who was part of the right movement for some time i have to say that the way we see this development from the outside is wrong.
while being even more retarded, the npd is not the nsdap, meaning they dont proclaim to kill all jews and start a war but represent themselves as a right winged not anti-democratic party. That's enough for many to make them electable.
What makes them pick up members is that they essentially try to say is that they think that Germans should have better jobs than non Germans in Germany, a thought that while racist and small-minded, draws lots of attention by the poor and uneducated who begrudge people who have more and are looking for a scapegoat. Which is exactly why they are stronger in the east.
In the same way you could ask why the left extreme party gets any votes, being the successors of the sed. Both parties get votes from those who lack education, so focusing this late in school wont help at all. Changing the school system into something more motivating or programs to increase the job chances of the guys who skipped school is probably the way to go.
On November 13 2012 06:05 lahara wrote:
On November 13 2012 06:03 Govou wrote:
On November 13 2012 05:57 lahara wrote:
On November 13 2012 05:52 AngryMag wrote:
On November 13 2012 05:49 lahara wrote:
On November 13 2012 05:43 Nyxisto wrote:
trolling? im actually dead srious believe it or not.its just you being unable to understand something that is different and new to you. and yes i am german
and i'm really interested in what the hell is going on with you. You can't really expect someone to reply to your posts seriously. You call yourself a nazi which is in itself idiotic enough and then you even say you don't share the core opinions of that ideology in the same sentence, which is totally absurd.
its not idiotic. its honest and takes a bit of courage too in current times. and what is so hard to believe about someone thinking he is something without being able to explain exactly why and maybe not even knowing it himself.. isnt life a search for ones self for all of us to some extent. im just halfway done wiht this journey apparently
Then I would simply suggest you to actually put the time in to evaluate and examinate your core believes. Just take time and read "Mein Kampf". You will realize that racism in NS ideology is inherent. As you describe yourself as non racist this should lead to looking for something different.
just like any ideology its not comepltely linear. just like the koran mein kampf is open to interprertation. also i will not read that filth for it is racist and extremist which is horrible in my opinion. i already stated why i like to consider myself a nazi which is that it gives me a sense of belonging. dont really see the problem in that. there are many "christians" or members of the church who dont believe in god but are still members of the church for reasons not associated witht the core belief of the institution.
unfortunately for you, your political affiliation was responsible for one of the most horrific act and continues to do horrible things in small scale. It is naive for you to think that people would accept your ideology especially when you guys didnt even bother to change the friggin name Nazi. That name alone is insulting enough on human race in 21st century.
you can argue about crusade and Christians but since then they have moved on from hatred towards peace and acceptance. Exactly opposite of your views
DONT forget child abuse... and im used to people getting caught up on me being a nazi. but oh well in a world full of prejudice and ideological prosecution it does get tough at times
your comparison is legit, the church committed genocides and burnings of minorities too. On the other hand the child abuses while being something that is probably the result of the celibacy, are not something the church as an institution encourages but pretty much the deeds of individual persons. The church has moral basics that to some extend are positive and has tried in the last few hundred years to do some things to make up for the crap they did. I fail to see how the same can be said for nazis, especially since nazi is a word that was created exclusively to describe followers of Hitler, whom you seem to condemn. Nazi does not equal being a nationalist and a socialist at the same time, but being a follower of Hitlers agenda.
apparentaly our understanding what makes out a nazi differ. i will limit my reply to this as i was kindly asked by TL staff to quit posting in the manner i have over the past hours. i had a great time discussing my identity with my fellow TLers. gg
LiquidLahara
I dont think theyll be too happy with a self proclaimed nazi putting the liquid tag in front of his name
On November 13 2012 04:20 DeepElemBlues wrote:go ron paul etc because he cares for us
Couldn't really have put it better, politicians in this country try so very, very hard to look like they can connect with the populace and fail just as hard. If they put as much effort into actually giving a fuck who knows what they could achieve...
it's not only politicians who see fringe parties as fringe.
On November 13 2012 04:49 farvacola wrote:
On November 13 2012 04:41 MoltkeWarding wrote:
On November 13 2012 03:28 schaf wrote: I think in Germany the whole WW2 education backfired a bit. I agree it has to be done and it's good that we get it in school a lot. But when I was growing up (mid 20s now), it felt like being German is actually a bad thing. You get constantly confronted with the horros and of the past and their guilt. My parents were not a particular help in that regard either as they were heavily influenced by the hippie movement. So, if you grow up in that environment every identification with your nation is basically taken from you (might seem a bit extreme, but with me that was the case) and if you want to be a non-conformist or a rebel in school, you look for things that are 'forbidden'.
The NPD is a joke. But they actually have a good strategy. They do offers for young people in areas where there is nothing else, do free jurisdictional advice for unemployed people, do community festivals - and the people buy it. It works.
All in all, I wouldn't call all followers of the NPD as Neo-Nazis.
And there are countries who have a much more severe problem with this, for example Russia (yes!):
When I first visited Berlin several years ago, I stood under the Brandenburger Tor, with a plaque detailing the glorious events of March 1848, supposed to remind us of the best political traditions of Germany's ancestors, in contrast to 1870 and 1933. The plaque commemorated Germany's first liberal-democrats, how they rose up for their rights against an authoritarian regime, how they for a wrinkle in time seized the destiny of the nation and seemed to propel it to a hopeful future.
This is the kind of dogma, half naive, half ridiculous, which is being commonly propagated as "History" in Germany today, in classrooms, media and the popular imagination. The National Assembly which assembled in Frankfurt in 1848 eventually perished under the duress of its own national radicalism, and was forced to prostitute itself out to Frederick William IV, who wound up protecting his "democrats" from the people, but rightly refused to pick his crown up from the gutter. No one today will teach 1848 as an object lesson in the failures of historical German liberalism and constitutionalism, an episode whose multifaceted complexities, by the way, would have been more profoundly understood under the classical curricula of such authoritarian regimes as Bismarck's Prussia or Hitler's National Socialist Germany than by the historically tone-deaf people of today.
It is being trumpeted as a milestone event in the progress of Germany because national curriculum of self-censorship has practically eradicated all other political achievements from German memory. It has painted the sweep of Germany with a broad brush and, while subscribing to the Sonderweg theory that all of Germany's history must be read under the dim shadow of the Third Reich, occasionally pretends to promote Germany's Western legacy by citing and mis-citing such episodes as the March Revolution or Operation Walküre. This kind of post ex-facto ideological manipulation exists all over the place. The German Biedermeier is more properly the teleological Vormärz, the War Credits vote of the SPD in 1914 is now seen as an departure from political norms in German history, rather than its conformity to it.
This is all perhaps only ephemerally relevant to the issue at hand. Looking at the OP, however, and reading the report by the Friederich-Ebert-Stiftung, it's obvious that some things are being misrepresented. In the Spiegel-polls, the NDP does not command enough support to enter any State parliament in Germany apart from Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, where the polls show them at 6%. The Survey of the Friedrich-Ebert-Stiftung has a list of questions so leading, that sometimes an answer which reveals a discerning historical understanding will be registered ideologically as “Rechtsextrem”
i.e.
Question 1:
Im nationalen Interesse ist unter bestimmten Umständen eine Diktatur die bessere Staatsform
Quite apart from the fact that this question betrays a lack of understanding as to what Dictatorship is, a classical scholar who admires Sulla might agree to this statement, and be labelled an extremist. The leading clause is the stipulation “unter bestimmten Umständen,” which vastly inflates the number of people who will be labelled inaccurately.
Question 2:
Ohne Judenvernichtung würde man Hitler heute als großen Staatsmann ansehen.
The leading aspect of this question is raised by its very hypothetical nature. You might as well ask if Hitler behaved as Mother Theresa, would he be seen as a saint today? The question is deliberately drawing on the great Hitler-biographer Joachim Fest's assertion in the introduction of his 1974 biography: Shall we call him great?
Fest asserted in his biograhpy that had Hitler died in 1938, he would have gone down in history as the greatest of German statesmen, surpassing Bismarck. These are debatable, but not trivial postulations. Yet under the consideration of the F-E-Stiftung, a lifelong bourgeois conservative like Fest would have been labelled an extremist.
The list goes on and on, deducing folly from folly. Finally all this “information” is reduced to a number ready for publication. After a long, exhaustive, methodological study, the final results conclude that the percentage of people holding extreme-right attitudes in Germany have grown from 6.6 percent to 15.8 percent. People are shocked. New resolutions are made from the left to accelerate the social and mental terraforming of the nation. We have to make German history even more mendacious and crude. We have to educate people better. We have to address socio-economic inequality.
Call me old-fashioned, but I have a better thermometer of measuring the presence of extremism in modern life. I go on the internet and see which people are going into a crazed frenzy calling everything else extreme.
This post was a highly enjoyable read, I recommend everyone read this before thinking too hard on the "evidence" presented in the OP.
disagree. the more 'thoughtful' the more pernicious when it comes to a defense of reactionary thinking. on a tactical level there may be an argument of turning to a more content based examination of the ideas and histories, rather than using sanctions and labels. however, at the same time the shadow of those ideas and histories is quite concrete no matter which approach.
for people who think it's okay, or even glorious, the examination has already been done and they are overruled. they should be condemned with pleasure, and that's all.
Shadows are not concrete. And there is always the most compelling argument of all for having the full picture of history. Sanctions and labels are simply a way to make the shadow you prefer as "concrete" as possible, with regard for the truth being a secondary concern if a concern at all.
Yes, thoughtful criticisms are more dangerous to an interpretation or opinion than those that are not, I don't see what your point is besides saying that what you think is so true and right that people should just turn their brains off and enjoy the sanctions and labels they're being fed.
shadows is the word because it was used in a scary scary sense to trivialize concrete history. the shadow of the third reich, for instance, is quite concrete.
there is no shortage of factual determination of the issue. there is however a distinct need for moral sanctions of the sort that prevents the moral stance against what nazis did and stood for from becoming arguable, relativizable, etc.
The real absurdity of democratic fanaticism is that they are always pretending that what's unpopular is too dangerously popular, and what's popular is lamentably unpopular. There's a kind of ethical self-satisfaction in the knowledge that you are an advocate of something that needs to be said, and yet the only people to whom you say them are ones who already agree with you. What we need is the easy moral satisfaction of being right without the hard work of learning.
In other words, if oneofthem had lived in the Third Reich, he would have understood all about the predatory innuendo of the Jewish press, and lamented the lack of foresight in his fellow citizens in spotting out the Jewish danger. Never mind whether or not he knew anything about Jews, their culture, history or theology.
For some reason people nowadays are always imagining themselves to be mentally ahead of the curve while they're just straggling along.
This is the most important point of this thread. I can sleep peacefully now.
On November 13 2012 04:20 DeepElemBlues wrote:go ron paul etc because he cares for us
Couldn't really have put it better, politicians in this country try so very, very hard to look like they can connect with the populace and fail just as hard. If they put as much effort into actually giving a fuck who knows what they could achieve...
it's not only politicians who see fringe parties as fringe.
On November 13 2012 04:49 farvacola wrote:
On November 13 2012 04:41 MoltkeWarding wrote:
On November 13 2012 03:28 schaf wrote: I think in Germany the whole WW2 education backfired a bit. I agree it has to be done and it's good that we get it in school a lot. But when I was growing up (mid 20s now), it felt like being German is actually a bad thing. You get constantly confronted with the horros and of the past and their guilt. My parents were not a particular help in that regard either as they were heavily influenced by the hippie movement. So, if you grow up in that environment every identification with your nation is basically taken from you (might seem a bit extreme, but with me that was the case) and if you want to be a non-conformist or a rebel in school, you look for things that are 'forbidden'.
The NPD is a joke. But they actually have a good strategy. They do offers for young people in areas where there is nothing else, do free jurisdictional advice for unemployed people, do community festivals - and the people buy it. It works.
All in all, I wouldn't call all followers of the NPD as Neo-Nazis.
And there are countries who have a much more severe problem with this, for example Russia (yes!):
When I first visited Berlin several years ago, I stood under the Brandenburger Tor, with a plaque detailing the glorious events of March 1848, supposed to remind us of the best political traditions of Germany's ancestors, in contrast to 1870 and 1933. The plaque commemorated Germany's first liberal-democrats, how they rose up for their rights against an authoritarian regime, how they for a wrinkle in time seized the destiny of the nation and seemed to propel it to a hopeful future.
This is the kind of dogma, half naive, half ridiculous, which is being commonly propagated as "History" in Germany today, in classrooms, media and the popular imagination. The National Assembly which assembled in Frankfurt in 1848 eventually perished under the duress of its own national radicalism, and was forced to prostitute itself out to Frederick William IV, who wound up protecting his "democrats" from the people, but rightly refused to pick his crown up from the gutter. No one today will teach 1848 as an object lesson in the failures of historical German liberalism and constitutionalism, an episode whose multifaceted complexities, by the way, would have been more profoundly understood under the classical curricula of such authoritarian regimes as Bismarck's Prussia or Hitler's National Socialist Germany than by the historically tone-deaf people of today.
It is being trumpeted as a milestone event in the progress of Germany because national curriculum of self-censorship has practically eradicated all other political achievements from German memory. It has painted the sweep of Germany with a broad brush and, while subscribing to the Sonderweg theory that all of Germany's history must be read under the dim shadow of the Third Reich, occasionally pretends to promote Germany's Western legacy by citing and mis-citing such episodes as the March Revolution or Operation Walküre. This kind of post ex-facto ideological manipulation exists all over the place. The German Biedermeier is more properly the teleological Vormärz, the War Credits vote of the SPD in 1914 is now seen as an departure from political norms in German history, rather than its conformity to it.
This is all perhaps only ephemerally relevant to the issue at hand. Looking at the OP, however, and reading the report by the Friederich-Ebert-Stiftung, it's obvious that some things are being misrepresented. In the Spiegel-polls, the NDP does not command enough support to enter any State parliament in Germany apart from Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, where the polls show them at 6%. The Survey of the Friedrich-Ebert-Stiftung has a list of questions so leading, that sometimes an answer which reveals a discerning historical understanding will be registered ideologically as “Rechtsextrem”
i.e.
Question 1:
Im nationalen Interesse ist unter bestimmten Umständen eine Diktatur die bessere Staatsform
Quite apart from the fact that this question betrays a lack of understanding as to what Dictatorship is, a classical scholar who admires Sulla might agree to this statement, and be labelled an extremist. The leading clause is the stipulation “unter bestimmten Umständen,” which vastly inflates the number of people who will be labelled inaccurately.
Question 2:
Ohne Judenvernichtung würde man Hitler heute als großen Staatsmann ansehen.
The leading aspect of this question is raised by its very hypothetical nature. You might as well ask if Hitler behaved as Mother Theresa, would he be seen as a saint today? The question is deliberately drawing on the great Hitler-biographer Joachim Fest's assertion in the introduction of his 1974 biography: Shall we call him great?
Fest asserted in his biograhpy that had Hitler died in 1938, he would have gone down in history as the greatest of German statesmen, surpassing Bismarck. These are debatable, but not trivial postulations. Yet under the consideration of the F-E-Stiftung, a lifelong bourgeois conservative like Fest would have been labelled an extremist.
The list goes on and on, deducing folly from folly. Finally all this “information” is reduced to a number ready for publication. After a long, exhaustive, methodological study, the final results conclude that the percentage of people holding extreme-right attitudes in Germany have grown from 6.6 percent to 15.8 percent. People are shocked. New resolutions are made from the left to accelerate the social and mental terraforming of the nation. We have to make German history even more mendacious and crude. We have to educate people better. We have to address socio-economic inequality.
Call me old-fashioned, but I have a better thermometer of measuring the presence of extremism in modern life. I go on the internet and see which people are going into a crazed frenzy calling everything else extreme.
This post was a highly enjoyable read, I recommend everyone read this before thinking too hard on the "evidence" presented in the OP.
disagree. the more 'thoughtful' the more pernicious when it comes to a defense of reactionary thinking. on a tactical level there may be an argument of turning to a more content based examination of the ideas and histories, rather than using sanctions and labels. however, at the same time the shadow of those ideas and histories is quite concrete no matter which approach.
for people who think it's okay, or even glorious, the examination has already been done and they are overruled. they should be condemned with pleasure, and that's all.
Shadows are not concrete. And there is always the most compelling argument of all for having the full picture of history. Sanctions and labels are simply a way to make the shadow you prefer as "concrete" as possible, with regard for the truth being a secondary concern if a concern at all.
Yes, thoughtful criticisms are more dangerous to an interpretation or opinion than those that are not, I don't see what your point is besides saying that what you think is so true and right that people should just turn their brains off and enjoy the sanctions and labels they're being fed.
shadows is the word because it was used in a scary scary sense to trivialize concrete history. the shadow of the third reich, for instance, is quite concrete.
there is no shortage of factual determination of the issue. there is however a distinct need for moral sanctions of the sort that prevents the moral stance against what nazis did and stood for from becoming arguable, relativizable, etc.
The real absurdity of democratic fanaticism is that they are always pretending that what's unpopular is too dangerously popular, and what's popular is lamentably unpopular. There's a kind of ethical self-satisfaction in the knowledge that you are an advocate of something that needs to be said, and yet the only people to whom you say them are ones who already agree with you. What we need is the easy moral satisfaction of being right without the hard work of learning.
In other words, if oneofthem had lived in the Third Reich, he would have understood all about the predatory innuendo of the Jewish press, and lamented the lack of foresight in his fellow citizens in spotting out the Jewish danger. Never mind whether or not he knew anything about Jews, their culture, history or theology.
For some reason people nowadays are always imagining themselves to be mentally ahead of the curve while they're just straggling along.
it was never about what is popular or unpopular, to represent 'democratic fanaticism' whatever that means as simply reverse hipsterism is to badly miss the point. the worry is always about the moral deficiency in society which is repeated and emphasized after the war (though somehow not applying to apartheid regimes or israel until later).
read your arendt or something. if you ever read anything in the 19th century and beyond.
I have relatives living in Europe, it's not like the World is completely disconnected in this day and age... Tons of ridiculous racist propaganda and ideology is floating around there. You get the same shit in America or anywhere else but it's usually restricted mostly to uneducated people. In Europe you get highly educated people buying into this crap, which is arguably much more dangerous.
On November 13 2012 06:38 SupLilSon wrote: I have relatives living in Europe, it's not like the World is completely disconnected in this day and age... Tons of ridiculous racist propaganda and ideology is floating around there. You get the same shit in America or anywhere else but it's usually restricted mostly to uneducated people. In Europe you get highly educated people buying into this crap, which is arguably much more dangerous.
Lets gather all of europe which differs immensely in terms of culture, put it into one box and then slap a racism sticker on it.
What gives you the idea that high educated people in europe are buying into racist propaganda?
On November 13 2012 06:09 Grimmyman123 wrote: For referrence, if you didn't know, Germany's military budget is EQUAL to Austria, Switzerland, Czech, Belguin, Poland, Finland, Sweden, Norway, and the Netherlands military budgets COMBINED. Take a look at that list of countries and their proximity to Germany. Scary isn't it?
If you are going to troll, at least get your numbers right.
Sweden 5.2 Belgium 5.3 Switzerland 4.4 Finland 3.7 Poland 9.1 Austria 3.4 Czech 2.5 Netherlands 11.0 Norway 7.1 ----- Total 51.7
On November 13 2012 06:38 SupLilSon wrote: I have relatives living in Europe, it's not like the World is completely disconnected in this day and age... Tons of ridiculous racist propaganda and ideology is floating around there. You get the same shit in America or anywhere else but it's usually restricted mostly to uneducated people. In Europe you get highly educated people buying into this crap, which is arguably much more dangerous.
Lets gather all of europe which differs immensely in terms of culture, put it into one box and then slap a racism sticker on it.
What gives you the idea that high educated people in europe are buying into racist propaganda?
It's anecdotal, but one of my cousins who grew up and lives in England is a successful doctor. He also truly believes that Jews run the American media and are the root of all evil.
He's not some antisocial nut who has crazy ideas. Him and his friends, who are also educated doctors buy into this propaganda.
As long as people see extreme right as "crap" and cant imagine why people are voting for it, there will always be a place for these partys, They adress isues wich are important for a significant part of the population who feel thoose isues are not adressed by the mainstream partys, who are only pushing globalisation. People are so afraid of extreme right in europe (and specially germany) that they are blinded for the sometimes valid points they raise, I guess the right wing extremist partys can also be blamed for this, since beside raising valid points they also raise a few idiotic points. Still people and mainstream politics should learn from this, The partys fill a demand that obviously is not filled by mainstream politics. I even think manny people who vote extreme right dont neccesarely agree with all of points of the party, they might even disagree with most of them, but they are so fed up with the mainstream partys that they still vote extreme right.
On November 13 2012 06:09 Grimmyman123 wrote: The solution is simple, and it was done 67 years ago, but it was not maintained.
Demilitarize Germany like we did at the end of World War 2. Maintain and enforce a zero military policy. We didn't learn the first time after World War 1 and allowed germany to rearm itself, and look what happened. If Germany is allowed to be run by some radical group again, with their current military, its a problem.
For referrence, if you didn't know, Germany's military budget is EQUAL to Austria, Switzerland, Czech, Belguin, Poland, Finland, Sweden, Norway, and the Netherlands military budgets COMBINED. Take a look at that list of countries and their proximity to Germany. Scary isn't it?
After World War 1, and then World War 2, we should have learned. There should not have been a wall dividing Germany. There should have been a wall surrounding it.
So, that way it doesnt matter who leads Germany or what their views are. Let them scwabble among themselves.
(Yes, I know this is an extreme point of view and is not wholy realistic due to the need for a country to be able to defend itself. However, the statistics and numbers are a bit frightening when it comes to Germany's military budget, military size, and the country's past history of conflicts.)
Dear god, I hope you're trolling. A super liberal and modern society that has a small % of total military spending in the world is such a huge threat? LOL.
EPT
Just look some posts above yours.... I would like to know how such a misleading, unbalanced and simply untrue thread is open for so long. Mods should really edit it..
