EPTSCOTUS case: Fisher v. Texas (Affirmative Action) - Page 6
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On November 03 2012 02:22 Demonhunter04 wrote: The supreme court takes something around 150 cases a year. Precedent is a convenient shortcut to save time, so that new types of cases can be given more time and attention. ...you realize the big deal with precedents is they being binding on lower courts | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On November 03 2012 11:35 oneofthem wrote: ...you realize the big deal with precedents is they being binding on lower courts It's purpose is to promote consistency, fairness, future guidance, and the ability to not make everyone in fucking existence confused on what is allowed. In theory, it shouldn't be an issue because rulings can be challenged and escalated to higher courts. It just doesn't work as effectively in that regard. I like the idea of precedence, simply because consistency can be achieved, and the fact a lower court decision on a massive issue will always be challenged anyways. I like it, I don't love it though. It definitely has massive flaws and limitations. | ||
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Romantic
United States1844 Posts
State schools should be color and gender blind. Private schools can do whatever they like. If I ran a school it would likely be color and gender blind, that would be my advice to private schools. Court decisions regarding affirmative action are just hilarious. You can't have quotas or discriminate, but you can, "consider race" - discriminate, just be quiet about it. I do not see a good reason to use race. Naturally if the problem is not biological in origin, using race as a proxy isn't perfect; environmental conditions would be. If you had a system where environmentally challenged people paid less or were accepted with lower average scores, that would naturally benefit the same group affirmative action is set up to help with the bonus of not giving assistance to rich minorities or denying help to poor white\Asians. The only people AA is really great for are "privileged" minorities who come from wealthy backgrounds but receive victim status by virtue of being black. Well, and all the white people who feel good about themselves for supporting racial policies. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On November 03 2012 11:50 Romantic wrote: My, uh, moderate libertarian? Opinion: State schools should be color and gender blind. Private schools can do whatever they like. If I ran a school it would likely be color and gender blind, that would be my advice to private schools. Court decisions regarding affirmative action are just hilarious. You can't have quotas or discriminate, but you can, "consider race" - discriminate, just be quiet about it. I do not see a good reason to use race. Naturally if the problem is not biological in origin, using race as a proxy isn't perfect; environmental conditions would be. If you had a system where environmentally challenged people paid less or were accepted with lower average scores, that would naturally benefit the same group affirmative action is set up to help with the bonus of not giving assistance to rich minorities or denying help to poor white\Asians. The only people AA is really great for are "privileged" minorities who come from wealthy backgrounds but receive victim status by virtue of being black. Well, and all the white people who feel good about themselves for supporting racial policies. No, the poverty minorities receive benefit as well, as they are still considered over poverty nonminorities, etc. The threshold for their acceptance is lower. | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
I don't care if I go to school with a thousand blacks or a thousand whites. If they got in for being the best, great for them. Saying that all the applicants that earned their spots have to give some up in the name of "diversity" is racist in itself. | ||
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shizaep
Canada2920 Posts
I absolutely think that race/ethnicity and anything else that isn't related to your grades/character should have 0 impact on your admission chances. Affirmative Action is definitely not taking society too good places. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
It is fair, I feel, for private individuals to set up scholarships that specifically award students of a certain race or ethnicity. | ||
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Kojak21
Canada1104 Posts
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Romantic
United States1844 Posts
On November 03 2012 11:57 FabledIntegral wrote: No, the poverty minorities receive benefit as well, as they are still considered over poverty nonminorities, etc. The threshold for their acceptance is lower. Benefit from AA as opposed to an environmental program. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On November 03 2012 12:53 Romantic wrote: Benefit from AA as opposed to an environmental program. I don't even know what this means. | ||
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Mr. Nefarious
United States515 Posts
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
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Manit0u
Poland17613 Posts
On November 02 2012 07:03 Caihead wrote: The principle of affirmative action is to overcome an existing discriminatory / unfair disadvantage based on irrelevant characteristics, often the only way to do that is to offer advantages to the least advantaged. The degree and implementation is up to debate but the principle isn't wrong at all, people only cry about it when they feel that they themselves are being inconvenienced. No body is up in arms about charities helping those in poverty by giving them money or housing for free. This principle is wrong. Any form of admission (university, work etc.) should be based on merit alone and not being tarnished by some dumb arbitrary thing like meeting a certain quota of people with specific complexion, disabilities and so on. "Offering advantage to the disadvantaged"? What are you even talking here about? Are you telling me that a black person can't study just as hard as white person, or vice versa, and one of them needs some special advantage over the other? Please... Let's take a quick look at how it's around here: Automatic admission: you get that only if you're one of the finalists of a 3rd stage (state-wide) science olympics in a given subject. That's right, only when you went beyond what was required of you in highschool and proven that you're actually good at it. Highschool scores have 0 impact on your admission, so does being good at sports, legacy and other bullshit like that. Giving advantages to the disadvantaged: you come from a poor family? No problem, the university is actually paying you to study if you got admitted. Students who come out of town and from poorer families get first dibs on the dorm rooms. It seems like you got some things backwards in the land of the free... | ||
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Zoomacroom
36 Posts
* It's a matter of historical and statistical fact that many ethnic minorities in the US are underprivileged and suffer from poor socioeconomic circumstances. They are often born into poor communities and go to horrible, underfunded schools with a slim to nil chance of producing the sort of academic standout top colleges are looking for - even if the student him or herself is studious and intelligent. * These socioeconomic circumstances limit their prospects in life, as well as the prospects of their children, and their children's children. I don't think it's realistic or well-grounded to ask them to bootstrap their way out of the hole that widespread racism dug them into. * If we don't do anything to address this situation, then race-based socioeconomic inequality will continue. * It is, in my opinion, more racist to be indifferent to this inequality, and not propose meaningful solutions to it, than to advocate temporarily treating people of different races differently in order to address a social problem. * The concept of a "meritocracy" in this context is philosophically jejune. It is premised upon a notion of the individual that is a homunculus, a miraculous, uncaused, unscientific nexus of will and decision-making. It is fundamentally incompatible with a materialist view of the world in which we are simply the product of genes and social circumstance, which is the view that I hold. Meritocracy, in this context, is not adequately accounting for the social circumstances, such as socioeconomic class and education, that shape the individual. It simply expects the individual to transcend all of that and study/work harder. This is what some people would call "a crock of shit." * The efficacy of affirmative action in practice is something that can only be determined by statistical studies. The data that I have seen from these studies is inconclusive, and the timeframe may be insufficient to draw meaningful conclusions, since the result we are hoping for (the gradual equalization of socioeconomic class between different races in the US) spans across generations. That being said, I have seen no other meaningful solutions to this problem proposed. * Affirmative action is not a failure if the recipients of it don't academically excel on the same level as their non-AA peers. You may consider it a failure if you only care about the prestige/results of the university. But if you care about helping minorities get the same socioeconomic playing field that whites in the US statistically enjoy, then that degree goes a long way. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
I think that since the policy is to ensure diversity; a necessary part of the system should be adjusting the values for any minority based on the amount that are already getting into the school; so if there's already enough of a minority getting in, there's no need for affirmative action and the weight will be 0 for that group on that point. With their 10% policy, i woudln't be surprised if that's enoguh to reach the point where a 0 weight would be appropriate. Affirmative action is something that was necessary, and should end at some point; and it's good to figure out exactly what statistics should be used to trigger an end to it; preferably with local variation because I suspect some areas have more trouble with it than others. | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
You fix the communities. Instead of bringing everyone to the low level you bring everyone to the high level through restoration programs. | ||
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peekn
United States1152 Posts
Students should be admitted based on their academics not the color of their skin or the place that they came from, fulfilling quotas and percentages is outrageous. The best fit should get in, just as in the workplace, if that happens to be all Asians, African Americans, or Caucasians so be it. Anything else is discrimination. | ||
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cekkmt
United States352 Posts
EDIT: also for people who think admissions should be ALL about academic qualifications, I would argue that having a personality rather than being a study robot is also an important qualification, which could also be used by colleges to prove that race was not the only discriminator. | ||
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red_b
United States1267 Posts
In the end I went to a different undergraduate program, decided at some point to show up to class and graduated with honors, then went to highly ranked graduate program. I am what this girl could be if she acted with some class and maturity instead of crying that she didn't get in. Hey girl, get better grades if you want to go to UT and your school is good. The next town from mine was desperately poor. Had a huge population of low income, immigrant/migrant students. Had UT only gone on GPA and test scores, I would have taken the spot of one of the kids from their run down, gang-ridden high school. But even after that, I'm not mad. I'm not bitter. A kid who worked hard to do the best he could in shitty circumstances got a chance he deserved and my dad's money made sure I ended up ahead of most people in the end anyway. Im telling you, as a supposed "victim" of affirmative action, that I support affirmative action and Texas' admissions plan. I think if more people who were in my position were more honest with themselves, they would realize that they actually do have a lot of unfair advantages and that there are plenty of opportunities that giving a poor kid a shot to go to a state school isn't a bad thing. | ||
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