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I was really wishing that they would at least curtail/mitigate the use of affirmative action when it comes college admittance. :/ I grew up in a very poor town in Arkansas, and I was the only one out of all of my (rather smart, actually) friends to get a scholarship and manage to attend the University of Arkansas on a full ride. The others, though they had stellar GPAs and test scores, were looked over because I had nabbed one of the five "white" scholarships for my region. The scholarship office lady told my best friend's mother, point blank, "Unless you have some Native or African American ancestry you can claim, I can't help you."
These are POOR AS FUCK people in Arkansas trying to get a degree and get ourselves out of the abject poverty that was our trailer park lives, and I was the only one who managed it without $100,000 in student loan debt.
I was hoping beyond hope that the Supreme Court would take a stance that would limit events such as the above and force scholarships to take into account purely academic and economic circumstances, but alas, they bought themselves a few years on a technicality. Too busy allowing companies with monopolistic power to protect themselves from lawsuits using mitigation clauses in their monopoly-powered contracts, apparently (I'm looking at you, AMEX decision).
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On November 02 2012 06:53 soggywaffle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 06:27 aRyuujin wrote:
as a high schooler in Texas from the same city as Fisher, this case hits especially close to home. One problem that a lot of people don't recognize is the effects upon Asians, though. It's been proven multiple times that Asians have to do significantly better than white people, and vastly better than the equivalent black student, just to get in to college. If Fisher wins, I think i'll have a lot easier time getting admitted. Have you ever been to UT campus? It's freaking Asian central over there..
That's why it's harder for Asians, they're over-represented in higher education as compared to their total representation in society. A huge % of Asian highschoolers make it to college, likely due to their cultural pressure for academic success. That is one major reason why racial quotas and AA is ridiculous- admission should be performance-based only.
Now, it is very apparent that socioeconomic upbringing is important to school performance, which is why the 10% rule works really well. Students only have to be in the top 10% at their OWN school, not 10% for all highschoolers. It wouldn't be fair for students at a socioeconomically disadvantaged school to compete with students from a rich school.
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I hate affirmative action. Luckily I don't have to deal with college admissions again. I gotta feel bad for the poor white kids though. They don't get just the tip here, they get a massive shaft too.
Clearly the way to deal with a history of discrimination is to just flip it around so now its unfair in the opposite manner.
The worst part of all this forced diversity though in my opinion is international students. Yeah, lets promote diversity and cut down discrimination in our country by letting someone from another country spend 4-8 years here then leave once they've got what they came for.
As someone who is about to enter his final semester as an engineering undergrad I can safely say that having groups of different minorities speaking their own language to each other in no way improved the quality of my education.
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Not all Asians, while the various South-Asians and North East Asians do quite well for themselves in university admissions, South East Asians lag behind, some even below white people level. The most logical way to deal with affirmative action is to make it based on socio-economic factors and not just on race. When I went to law school the contrast between some of my black classmates (Penn or Morehouse graduates from upper class families) with others (state schools, clearly taking out massive loans) was stark
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On June 25 2013 04:18 Greggle wrote:
I hate affirmative action. Luckily I don't have to deal with college admissions again. I gotta feel bad for the poor white kids though. They don't get just the tip here, they get a massive shaft too.
Clearly the way to deal with a history of discrimination is to just flip it around so now its unfair in the opposite manner.
The worst part of all this forced diversity though in my opinion is international students. Yeah, lets promote diversity and cut down discrimination in our country by letting someone from another country spend 4-8 years here then leave once they've got what they came for.
As someone who is about to enter his final semester as an engineering undergrad I can safely say that having groups of different minorities speaking their own language to each other in no way improved the quality of my education.
1) International students pay higher tuition, so chances are they are subsiding other students
2) I am sure that most international students would gladly stay in the good old US of A but are kept out by a poorly designed immigration system.
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On June 25 2013 04:21 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 04:18 Greggle wrote:
I hate affirmative action. Luckily I don't have to deal with college admissions again. I gotta feel bad for the poor white kids though. They don't get just the tip here, they get a massive shaft too.
Clearly the way to deal with a history of discrimination is to just flip it around so now its unfair in the opposite manner.
The worst part of all this forced diversity though in my opinion is international students. Yeah, lets promote diversity and cut down discrimination in our country by letting someone from another country spend 4-8 years here then leave once they've got what they came for.
As someone who is about to enter his final semester as an engineering undergrad I can safely say that having groups of different minorities speaking their own language to each other in no way improved the quality of my education. 1) International students pay higher tuition, so chances are they are subsiding other students 2) I am sure 100% sure that most international students would gladly stay in the good old US of A but are kept out by a poorly designed immigration system.
1) I'm well aware of this and it is a load of bullshit. I'm sure there are plenty of American students that would be happy to pay a bit more for the ability to actually get in over an international student who got in through financial incentives and affirmative action.
2) Sorry, America is not a never-ending fountain of giving. We can't let everyone in. If you split a pizza with a friend its great. If you split a pizza with 7 friends its okay. If you split a pizza between 100 people there was no point in even having it.
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On June 25 2013 04:41 Greggle wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 04:21 Sub40APM wrote:On June 25 2013 04:18 Greggle wrote:
I hate affirmative action. Luckily I don't have to deal with college admissions again. I gotta feel bad for the poor white kids though. They don't get just the tip here, they get a massive shaft too.
Clearly the way to deal with a history of discrimination is to just flip it around so now its unfair in the opposite manner.
The worst part of all this forced diversity though in my opinion is international students. Yeah, lets promote diversity and cut down discrimination in our country by letting someone from another country spend 4-8 years here then leave once they've got what they came for.
As someone who is about to enter his final semester as an engineering undergrad I can safely say that having groups of different minorities speaking their own language to each other in no way improved the quality of my education. 1) International students pay higher tuition, so chances are they are subsiding other students 2) I am sure 100% sure that most international students would gladly stay in the good old US of A but are kept out by a poorly designed immigration system. 1) I'm well aware of this and it is a load of bullshit. I'm sure there are plenty of American students that would be happy to pay a bit more for the ability to actually get in over an international student who got in through financial incentives and affirmative action. 2) Sorry, America is not a never-ending fountain of giving. We can't let everyone in. If you split a pizza with a friend its great. If you split a pizza with 7 friends its okay. If you split a pizza between 100 people there was no point in even having it.
There is no affirmative action for international students. And obviously most Americans simply cant compete intellectually with foreigners in top science and engineering programs, which is why so many foreigners are there in the first place, which is why your government and your big corporations are pissing and moning about how there arent enough engineers and scientists in the first place
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There may not be any legal affirmative action, but there is a common desire among universities to force diversity and promote themselves internationally by admitting foreign students. There are of course plenty of them who are better in many regards, but after spending nearly 4 years with them I can honestly say there are plenty of international students at the rock bottom of my class, and the few white people around have at least as many representatives towards the top as they do the bottom.
Saying most Americans can't compete is a pretty stupid generalization. The problem isn't any latent lack of ability. It's a stupid culture here that promotes doing whatever the hell you want with your college experience. Internationals have a much better sense of which degrees are worth monetary investment. Plenty of American students just switch to easier majors that don't offer tangible benefits to themselves or society because there is very little pressure here to get a return on your investment.
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On June 25 2013 04:46 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 04:41 Greggle wrote:On June 25 2013 04:21 Sub40APM wrote:On June 25 2013 04:18 Greggle wrote:
I hate affirmative action. Luckily I don't have to deal with college admissions again. I gotta feel bad for the poor white kids though. They don't get just the tip here, they get a massive shaft too.
Clearly the way to deal with a history of discrimination is to just flip it around so now its unfair in the opposite manner.
The worst part of all this forced diversity though in my opinion is international students. Yeah, lets promote diversity and cut down discrimination in our country by letting someone from another country spend 4-8 years here then leave once they've got what they came for.
As someone who is about to enter his final semester as an engineering undergrad I can safely say that having groups of different minorities speaking their own language to each other in no way improved the quality of my education. 1) International students pay higher tuition, so chances are they are subsiding other students 2) I am sure 100% sure that most international students would gladly stay in the good old US of A but are kept out by a poorly designed immigration system. 1) I'm well aware of this and it is a load of bullshit. I'm sure there are plenty of American students that would be happy to pay a bit more for the ability to actually get in over an international student who got in through financial incentives and affirmative action. 2) Sorry, America is not a never-ending fountain of giving. We can't let everyone in. If you split a pizza with a friend its great. If you split a pizza with 7 friends its okay. If you split a pizza between 100 people there was no point in even having it. There is no affirmative action for international students. And obviously most Americans simply cant compete intellectually with foreigners in top science and engineering programs, which is why so many foreigners are there in the first place, which is why your government and your big corporations are pissing and moning about how there arent enough engineers and scientists in the first place
This is stated over and over again but the numbers don't back it up. There is high unemployment amongst stem majors as well and its just bullshit companies tout so they can pay a foreigner less money. There are qualified Americans, lots in fact.
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On June 25 2013 03:52 Mauldo wrote:
I was really wishing that they would at least curtail/mitigate the use of affirmative action when it comes college admittance. :/ I grew up in a very poor town in Arkansas, and I was the only one out of all of my (rather smart, actually) friends to get a scholarship and manage to attend the University of Arkansas on a full ride. The others, though they had stellar GPAs and test scores, were looked over because I had nabbed one of the five "white" scholarships for my region. The scholarship office lady told my best friend's mother, point blank, "Unless you have some Native or African American ancestry you can claim, I can't help you."
These are POOR AS FUCK people in Arkansas trying to get a degree and get ourselves out of the abject poverty that was our trailer park lives, and I was the only one who managed it without $100,000 in student loan debt.
I was hoping beyond hope that the Supreme Court would take a stance that would limit events such as the above and force scholarships to take into account purely academic and economic circumstances, but alas, they bought themselves a few years on a technicality. Too busy allowing companies with monopolistic power to protect themselves from lawsuits using mitigation clauses in their monopoly-powered contracts, apparently (I'm looking at you, AMEX decision).
Afaik they can't dispute it if you claim to have African-American ancestry, so you can say you do and suddenly you are in a much better place in terms of scholarships and admissions.
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On June 25 2013 05:35 Demonhunter04 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 03:52 Mauldo wrote:
I was really wishing that they would at least curtail/mitigate the use of affirmative action when it comes college admittance. :/ I grew up in a very poor town in Arkansas, and I was the only one out of all of my (rather smart, actually) friends to get a scholarship and manage to attend the University of Arkansas on a full ride. The others, though they had stellar GPAs and test scores, were looked over because I had nabbed one of the five "white" scholarships for my region. The scholarship office lady told my best friend's mother, point blank, "Unless you have some Native or African American ancestry you can claim, I can't help you."
These are POOR AS FUCK people in Arkansas trying to get a degree and get ourselves out of the abject poverty that was our trailer park lives, and I was the only one who managed it without $100,000 in student loan debt.
I was hoping beyond hope that the Supreme Court would take a stance that would limit events such as the above and force scholarships to take into account purely academic and economic circumstances, but alas, they bought themselves a few years on a technicality. Too busy allowing companies with monopolistic power to protect themselves from lawsuits using mitigation clauses in their monopoly-powered contracts, apparently (I'm looking at you, AMEX decision). Afaik they can't dispute it if you claim to have African-American ancestry, so you can say you do and suddenly you are in a much better place in terms of scholarships and admissions.
Most places require that you're linked to an official NA tribe/organization, and that in turn requires you to have some kind of evidence to be a part of the tribe/organization.
For instance, it is well-accepted on my dad's side of the family that we are part Cherokee and that is why my paternal grandmother is dark as can be and looks like you plucked her right off a reservation. That said, we have little to no family records going past her parents (my great-grandparents), so we can't give any Cherokee tribes the evidence they require to be a part of the organization. Top that off with the fact that I look like a quintessential German (which is most of my heritage) and I can't put down that I'm Native American for any type of application for race-related scholarships/admissions/etc.
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On June 25 2013 05:38 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 05:35 Demonhunter04 wrote:On June 25 2013 03:52 Mauldo wrote:
I was really wishing that they would at least curtail/mitigate the use of affirmative action when it comes college admittance. :/ I grew up in a very poor town in Arkansas, and I was the only one out of all of my (rather smart, actually) friends to get a scholarship and manage to attend the University of Arkansas on a full ride. The others, though they had stellar GPAs and test scores, were looked over because I had nabbed one of the five "white" scholarships for my region. The scholarship office lady told my best friend's mother, point blank, "Unless you have some Native or African American ancestry you can claim, I can't help you."
These are POOR AS FUCK people in Arkansas trying to get a degree and get ourselves out of the abject poverty that was our trailer park lives, and I was the only one who managed it without $100,000 in student loan debt.
I was hoping beyond hope that the Supreme Court would take a stance that would limit events such as the above and force scholarships to take into account purely academic and economic circumstances, but alas, they bought themselves a few years on a technicality. Too busy allowing companies with monopolistic power to protect themselves from lawsuits using mitigation clauses in their monopoly-powered contracts, apparently (I'm looking at you, AMEX decision). Afaik they can't dispute it if you claim to have African-American ancestry, so you can say you do and suddenly you are in a much better place in terms of scholarships and admissions. Most places require that you're linked to an official NA tribe/organization, and that in turn requires you to have some kind of evidence to be a part of the tribe/organization. For instance, it is well-accepted on my dad's side of the family that we are part Cherokee and that is why my paternal grandmother is dark as can be and looks like you plucked her right off a reservation. That said, we have little to no family records going past her parents (my great-grandparents), so we can't give any Cherokee tribes the evidence they require to be a part of the organization. Top that off with the fact that I look like a quintessential German (which is most of my heritage) and I can't put down that I'm Native American for any type of application for race-related scholarships/admissions/etc.
I was talking about African-American (and I guess Latino) ancestry. I don't know how they do it with Native American ancestry, so no comment on that.
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Must be nice to be on the Supreme Court. You're allowed to push a ruling back, make no ruling and turn it back to the States, and no one can ever fire you.
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On June 25 2013 04:41 Greggle wrote:
2) Sorry, America is not a never-ending fountain of giving. We can't let everyone in. If you split a pizza with a friend its great. If you split a pizza with 7 friends its okay. If you split a pizza between 100 people there was no point in even having it.
Only to really make the analogy, the 2 or 7 or 100 people are not only eating but also making the pizzas. 100 people can make way more than just 7, so amount of pizza per person stays about the same, perhaps slightly increases due to economies of scale.
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On June 25 2013 06:03 Signet wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 04:41 Greggle wrote:
2) Sorry, America is not a never-ending fountain of giving. We can't let everyone in. If you split a pizza with a friend its great. If you split a pizza with 7 friends its okay. If you split a pizza between 100 people there was no point in even having it. Only to really make the analogy, the 2 or 7 or 100 people are not only eating but also making the pizzas. 100 people can make way more than just 7, so amount of pizza per person stays about the same, perhaps slightly increases due to economies of scale.
I think all analogies break down at some point, but if you want to talk economics then lets bring in diminishing marginal returns. Adding more and more chefs to the kitchen will only produce more pizzas until a certain point where the production actually decreases.
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On June 25 2013 03:46 NEOtheONE wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 07:04 ZeaL. wrote:On November 02 2012 06:57 sevencck wrote:On November 02 2012 06:49 ZeaL. wrote:
As an Asian I am split about this. Remove AA and my brethren will have a much easier time getting into college (Can look at the UC schools where race was removed from admission criteria and how many asians there are at Berkeley vs say Harvard where its ~20%). On the other hand, I did benefit greatly from having a diverse student body from which different backgrounds and ideas could merge, I doubt I would gain as much social/culturally from a 100% asian or 100% white student body. On a moral basis AA is definitely wrong, on the other hand I think all should have an equal chance of getting to college. Targeting the root of the problem which is heterogeneous education quality would be a much better solution to that than post-hoc preference. Why? It boils down to the fact that you are treating groups differentially based on their skin color, i.e. you're force all asians to work harder to get in your school than white kids simply because they're asian and other asians do well. By simply being born into a certain race a criteria is placed on you where it isn't placed on others and that is wrong. Blacks/hispanics do suffer disproportionately from lower socioeconomic status and on average gain poorer quality education but I know plenty of Asians who are poor as fuck too. Should they have to settle for a lower quality school or no college than their black friends simply because of color? Edit: If the goal is to bring more opportunity to those races which are historically underperforming in school, treat the disease at the cause, not through awkward things like AA. This is the primary issue with AA. It tries to treat a symptom without addressing the real problem. The real issue is that schools are grossly disproportionate in level of funding due to the primary source of funding coming from the local level. Low income neighborhoods have low income schools, which have underfunded education programs. The education system is "going to hell in a hand basket" in the US. And it will continue to get worse until we change how public schools are funded.
It's actually a myth that the achievement gap is caused by school funding.
In fact some of the highest spending per student in America happens in majority black schools. Yet this spending doesn't reduce the dismal failure rates.
Eventually people are going to have to accept that not everyone has equal potential.
It doesn't matter how much money someone has to spend on education if they lack the brains to be educated.
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On June 25 2013 07:04 bugser wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 03:46 NEOtheONE wrote:On November 02 2012 07:04 ZeaL. wrote:On November 02 2012 06:57 sevencck wrote:On November 02 2012 06:49 ZeaL. wrote:
As an Asian I am split about this. Remove AA and my brethren will have a much easier time getting into college (Can look at the UC schools where race was removed from admission criteria and how many asians there are at Berkeley vs say Harvard where its ~20%). On the other hand, I did benefit greatly from having a diverse student body from which different backgrounds and ideas could merge, I doubt I would gain as much social/culturally from a 100% asian or 100% white student body. On a moral basis AA is definitely wrong, on the other hand I think all should have an equal chance of getting to college. Targeting the root of the problem which is heterogeneous education quality would be a much better solution to that than post-hoc preference. Why? It boils down to the fact that you are treating groups differentially based on their skin color, i.e. you're force all asians to work harder to get in your school than white kids simply because they're asian and other asians do well. By simply being born into a certain race a criteria is placed on you where it isn't placed on others and that is wrong. Blacks/hispanics do suffer disproportionately from lower socioeconomic status and on average gain poorer quality education but I know plenty of Asians who are poor as fuck too. Should they have to settle for a lower quality school or no college than their black friends simply because of color? Edit: If the goal is to bring more opportunity to those races which are historically underperforming in school, treat the disease at the cause, not through awkward things like AA. This is the primary issue with AA. It tries to treat a symptom without addressing the real problem. The real issue is that schools are grossly disproportionate in level of funding due to the primary source of funding coming from the local level. Low income neighborhoods have low income schools, which have underfunded education programs. The education system is "going to hell in a hand basket" in the US. And it will continue to get worse until we change how public schools are funded. It's actually a myth that the achievement gap is caused by school funding. In fact some of the highest spending per student in America happens in majority black schools. Yet this spending doesn't reduce the dismal failure rates. Eventually people are going to have to accept that not everyone has equal potential. It doesn't matter how much money someone has to spend on education if they lack the brains to be educated.
Yeah, that's the reason. Don't be ignorant please. Most of the spending is wasted because curriculum and lesson planning are terribly implemented. The problem lies not with the students (seriously what kind of dumb logic is that?) but how "solutions" are implemented.
But cool, let's throw money at the situation and blame the students when they're given tools but no instruction.
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On June 25 2013 07:15 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 07:04 bugser wrote:On June 25 2013 03:46 NEOtheONE wrote:On November 02 2012 07:04 ZeaL. wrote:On November 02 2012 06:57 sevencck wrote:On November 02 2012 06:49 ZeaL. wrote:
As an Asian I am split about this. Remove AA and my brethren will have a much easier time getting into college (Can look at the UC schools where race was removed from admission criteria and how many asians there are at Berkeley vs say Harvard where its ~20%). On the other hand, I did benefit greatly from having a diverse student body from which different backgrounds and ideas could merge, I doubt I would gain as much social/culturally from a 100% asian or 100% white student body. On a moral basis AA is definitely wrong, on the other hand I think all should have an equal chance of getting to college. Targeting the root of the problem which is heterogeneous education quality would be a much better solution to that than post-hoc preference. Why? It boils down to the fact that you are treating groups differentially based on their skin color, i.e. you're force all asians to work harder to get in your school than white kids simply because they're asian and other asians do well. By simply being born into a certain race a criteria is placed on you where it isn't placed on others and that is wrong. Blacks/hispanics do suffer disproportionately from lower socioeconomic status and on average gain poorer quality education but I know plenty of Asians who are poor as fuck too. Should they have to settle for a lower quality school or no college than their black friends simply because of color? Edit: If the goal is to bring more opportunity to those races which are historically underperforming in school, treat the disease at the cause, not through awkward things like AA. This is the primary issue with AA. It tries to treat a symptom without addressing the real problem. The real issue is that schools are grossly disproportionate in level of funding due to the primary source of funding coming from the local level. Low income neighborhoods have low income schools, which have underfunded education programs. The education system is "going to hell in a hand basket" in the US. And it will continue to get worse until we change how public schools are funded. It's actually a myth that the achievement gap is caused by school funding. In fact some of the highest spending per student in America happens in majority black schools. Yet this spending doesn't reduce the dismal failure rates. Eventually people are going to have to accept that not everyone has equal potential. It doesn't matter how much money someone has to spend on education if they lack the brains to be educated. Yeah, that's the reason. Don't be ignorant please. Most of the spending is wasted because curriculum and lesson planning are terribly implemented. The problem lies not with the students (seriously what kind of dumb logic is that?) but how "solutions" are implemented. But cool, let's throw money at the situation and blame the students when they're given tools but no instruction.
They are given instruction. That is what the school is for.
The problem is that different people have different potential. It is foolish (albeit heartwarming) to pretend that everyone can do anything if only they get enough love, hugs, guidance, and money.
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On June 25 2013 05:56 Demonhunter04 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 05:38 Stratos_speAr wrote:On June 25 2013 05:35 Demonhunter04 wrote:On June 25 2013 03:52 Mauldo wrote:
I was really wishing that they would at least curtail/mitigate the use of affirmative action when it comes college admittance. :/ I grew up in a very poor town in Arkansas, and I was the only one out of all of my (rather smart, actually) friends to get a scholarship and manage to attend the University of Arkansas on a full ride. The others, though they had stellar GPAs and test scores, were looked over because I had nabbed one of the five "white" scholarships for my region. The scholarship office lady told my best friend's mother, point blank, "Unless you have some Native or African American ancestry you can claim, I can't help you."
These are POOR AS FUCK people in Arkansas trying to get a degree and get ourselves out of the abject poverty that was our trailer park lives, and I was the only one who managed it without $100,000 in student loan debt.
I was hoping beyond hope that the Supreme Court would take a stance that would limit events such as the above and force scholarships to take into account purely academic and economic circumstances, but alas, they bought themselves a few years on a technicality. Too busy allowing companies with monopolistic power to protect themselves from lawsuits using mitigation clauses in their monopoly-powered contracts, apparently (I'm looking at you, AMEX decision). Afaik they can't dispute it if you claim to have African-American ancestry, so you can say you do and suddenly you are in a much better place in terms of scholarships and admissions. Most places require that you're linked to an official NA tribe/organization, and that in turn requires you to have some kind of evidence to be a part of the tribe/organization. For instance, it is well-accepted on my dad's side of the family that we are part Cherokee and that is why my paternal grandmother is dark as can be and looks like you plucked her right off a reservation. That said, we have little to no family records going past her parents (my great-grandparents), so we can't give any Cherokee tribes the evidence they require to be a part of the organization. Top that off with the fact that I look like a quintessential German (which is most of my heritage) and I can't put down that I'm Native American for any type of application for race-related scholarships/admissions/etc. I was talking about African-American (and I guess Latino) ancestry. I don't know how they do it with Native American ancestry, so no comment on that.
My bad, misread your post.
They are given instruction. That is what the school is for.
The problem is that different people have different potential. It is foolish (albeit heartwarming) to pretend that everyone can do anything if only they get enough love, hugs, guidance, and money.
Yea, forgive us if we don't believe some 2-post forum lurker that presents zero proof and then claims that it's solely based on "student potential" (implying that black students don't have as much potential as whites, which is an inherently racist claim). If you want us to believe you and take your racist-at-face-value claims seriously, give us some hard evidence.
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On June 25 2013 07:26 bugser wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 07:15 Judicator wrote:On June 25 2013 07:04 bugser wrote:On June 25 2013 03:46 NEOtheONE wrote:On November 02 2012 07:04 ZeaL. wrote:On November 02 2012 06:57 sevencck wrote:On November 02 2012 06:49 ZeaL. wrote:
As an Asian I am split about this. Remove AA and my brethren will have a much easier time getting into college (Can look at the UC schools where race was removed from admission criteria and how many asians there are at Berkeley vs say Harvard where its ~20%). On the other hand, I did benefit greatly from having a diverse student body from which different backgrounds and ideas could merge, I doubt I would gain as much social/culturally from a 100% asian or 100% white student body. On a moral basis AA is definitely wrong, on the other hand I think all should have an equal chance of getting to college. Targeting the root of the problem which is heterogeneous education quality would be a much better solution to that than post-hoc preference. Why? It boils down to the fact that you are treating groups differentially based on their skin color, i.e. you're force all asians to work harder to get in your school than white kids simply because they're asian and other asians do well. By simply being born into a certain race a criteria is placed on you where it isn't placed on others and that is wrong. Blacks/hispanics do suffer disproportionately from lower socioeconomic status and on average gain poorer quality education but I know plenty of Asians who are poor as fuck too. Should they have to settle for a lower quality school or no college than their black friends simply because of color? Edit: If the goal is to bring more opportunity to those races which are historically underperforming in school, treat the disease at the cause, not through awkward things like AA. This is the primary issue with AA. It tries to treat a symptom without addressing the real problem. The real issue is that schools are grossly disproportionate in level of funding due to the primary source of funding coming from the local level. Low income neighborhoods have low income schools, which have underfunded education programs. The education system is "going to hell in a hand basket" in the US. And it will continue to get worse until we change how public schools are funded. It's actually a myth that the achievement gap is caused by school funding. In fact some of the highest spending per student in America happens in majority black schools. Yet this spending doesn't reduce the dismal failure rates. Eventually people are going to have to accept that not everyone has equal potential. It doesn't matter how much money someone has to spend on education if they lack the brains to be educated. Yeah, that's the reason. Don't be ignorant please. Most of the spending is wasted because curriculum and lesson planning are terribly implemented. The problem lies not with the students (seriously what kind of dumb logic is that?) but how "solutions" are implemented. But cool, let's throw money at the situation and blame the students when they're given tools but no instruction. They are given instruction. That is what the school is for. The problem is that different people have different potential. It is foolish (albeit heartwarming) to pretend that everyone can do anything if only they get enough love, hugs, guidance, and money.
You are ignorant as hell if you think potential is what's keeping people from failing out of high school. Instruction? You honestly think that single version instruction is suitable for every student each with a different learning style? You aren't asking people to build the space shuttle, you are asking them to graduate high school, so calm down with potential.
For example, in an attempt to incorporate technology into their course work, schools have gone to the "use a computer" to do assignments to educate students on the use of computers since you can't be competitive in the job market if you don't have computer skills. Yet, somehow they expect the same students who probably can't afford a computer to be able to afford things like internet access on top of not having computers in schools that are easily accessible. So how the hell do you expect the students are you suppose to be helping to finish the assignment away from the classroom?
Also, please stop talking out of your ass, you clearly have done 0 research on the topic, and just spitting BS based on how you feel. That funding gap myth was disproved only exposed how stupidly terrible the American public education system was on handling issues. It's not (always) the amount of money being spent, but it was how it was being spent.
Edit:
How do I know all of this? I work in a federally funded program on a college campus that helps first generation/under represented students, helping someone put together their literature for their thesis regarding retainment among groups of students, and actually sit in on meetings regarding these topics.
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EPT
