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United States41983 Posts
On August 24 2012 04:22 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 04:15 JinDesu wrote:On August 24 2012 04:13 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:13 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 04:11 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:08 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:04 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:02 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:01 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 03:59 Byzantium wrote:
[quote]
The justice system has (tragically) some non-zero amount of Type 1 error: that is, false imprisonment. Due to this fact, we should increase the amount of Type 2 error: that is, wrongful acquittal by allowing an irrelevant argument to acquit people (in the hopes that it will decrease the type 1 error, I guess).
I'm not sure why this makes sense, and as far as I can tell seems to be your position. Meanwhile your position is "prosecute everything" and suddenly the non-zero false imprisonment goes up and that's fine with you. Makes a lot more sense. I'm sorry, I don't see myself taking a position at all here (please quote me where I stated one that would seem to suggest this if I did); I don't think that's anyone's position in fact. I'm not pretending my position is perfect. My position is what I consider to be the more moral compromise to make given our imperfect justice system which simply can't know everything. So your solution to imperfect knowledge is to introduce additional variance in the form of giving credence to a line of argument you yourself have said is irrelevant? That's only going to worsen the imperfect knowledge problem by inducing additional variance. You acknowledge that your position leads to more innocent people to go to jail? Then congrats, we agree to disagree. I personally care more about the freedom of innocents than the prosecution of the guilty. What about just scrapping all rape laws. That way no innocent men will ever be convicted of rape. I guess I just care more about the freedom of innocents than you. How about some more slippery slopes. Maybe we kill everyone too. That's how you argue. On August 24 2012 04:13 JinDesu wrote:On August 24 2012 04:11 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:08 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:04 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:02 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:01 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 03:59 Byzantium wrote:
[quote]
The justice system has (tragically) some non-zero amount of Type 1 error: that is, false imprisonment. Due to this fact, we should increase the amount of Type 2 error: that is, wrongful acquittal by allowing an irrelevant argument to acquit people (in the hopes that it will decrease the type 1 error, I guess).
I'm not sure why this makes sense, and as far as I can tell seems to be your position. Meanwhile your position is "prosecute everything" and suddenly the non-zero false imprisonment goes up and that's fine with you. Makes a lot more sense. I'm sorry, I don't see myself taking a position at all here (please quote me where I stated one that would seem to suggest this if I did); I don't think that's anyone's position in fact. I'm not pretending my position is perfect. My position is what I consider to be the more moral compromise to make given our imperfect justice system which simply can't know everything. So your solution to imperfect knowledge is to introduce additional variance in the form of giving credence to a line of argument you yourself have said is irrelevant? That's only going to worsen the imperfect knowledge problem by inducing additional variance. You acknowledge that your position leads to more innocent people to go to jail? Then congrats, we agree to disagree. I personally care more about the freedom of innocents than the prosecution of the guilty. Your position validates the raping of promiscuous women. No. Then how do you protect promiscuous women in a court of law, if the argument that "they are promiscuous, the defendant is innocent" is used? A court of law should be about finding the truth. It should not be swayed by imperfect arguments. If you are complaining that the courts are bad at their jobs, then the solution is not to continue allowing an imperfect argument, but to reform the court.I fail to see why that is so hard to understand. Just let go of the promiscuous women thing then, that was faulty in part and my response to a faulty justice system which prosecutes innocent men based on faulty arguments of the prosecution, and as such, I was advocating the use of bad argument by the defense to avoid the prosecution of innocent men. The failure of all of you to have a view that's the slightest bit nuanced is shocking to me. And to call me a misogynist is ridiculous NicolBolas. Have some respect.
No, you are very clearly a misogynist. And I don't need to use the "this woman had sex with men and enjoyed it, therefore you are a misogynist" argument to prove that.
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On August 24 2012 04:25 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 04:22 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:15 JinDesu wrote:On August 24 2012 04:13 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:13 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 04:11 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:08 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:04 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:02 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:01 Djzapz wrote:
[quote]
Meanwhile your position is "prosecute everything" and suddenly the non-zero false imprisonment goes up and that's fine with you.
Makes a lot more sense. I'm sorry, I don't see myself taking a position at all here (please quote me where I stated one that would seem to suggest this if I did); I don't think that's anyone's position in fact. I'm not pretending my position is perfect. My position is what I consider to be the more moral compromise to make given our imperfect justice system which simply can't know everything. So your solution to imperfect knowledge is to introduce additional variance in the form of giving credence to a line of argument you yourself have said is irrelevant? That's only going to worsen the imperfect knowledge problem by inducing additional variance. You acknowledge that your position leads to more innocent people to go to jail? Then congrats, we agree to disagree. I personally care more about the freedom of innocents than the prosecution of the guilty. What about just scrapping all rape laws. That way no innocent men will ever be convicted of rape. I guess I just care more about the freedom of innocents than you. How about some more slippery slopes. Maybe we kill everyone too. That's how you argue. On August 24 2012 04:13 JinDesu wrote:On August 24 2012 04:11 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:08 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:04 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:02 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:01 Djzapz wrote:
[quote]
Meanwhile your position is "prosecute everything" and suddenly the non-zero false imprisonment goes up and that's fine with you.
Makes a lot more sense. I'm sorry, I don't see myself taking a position at all here (please quote me where I stated one that would seem to suggest this if I did); I don't think that's anyone's position in fact. I'm not pretending my position is perfect. My position is what I consider to be the more moral compromise to make given our imperfect justice system which simply can't know everything. So your solution to imperfect knowledge is to introduce additional variance in the form of giving credence to a line of argument you yourself have said is irrelevant? That's only going to worsen the imperfect knowledge problem by inducing additional variance. You acknowledge that your position leads to more innocent people to go to jail? Then congrats, we agree to disagree. I personally care more about the freedom of innocents than the prosecution of the guilty. Your position validates the raping of promiscuous women. No. Then how do you protect promiscuous women in a court of law, if the argument that "they are promiscuous, the defendant is innocent" is used? A court of law should be about finding the truth. It should not be swayed by imperfect arguments. If you are complaining that the courts are bad at their jobs, then the solution is not to continue allowing an imperfect argument, but to reform the court.I fail to see why that is so hard to understand. Just let go of the promiscuous women thing then, that was faulty in part and my response to a faulty justice system which prosecutes innocent men based on faulty arguments of the prosecution, and as such, I was advocating the use of bad argument by the defense to avoid the prosecution of innocent men. The failure of all of you to have a view that's the slightest bit nuanced is shocking to me. And to call me a misogynist is ridiculous NicolBolas. Have some respect. No, you are very clearly a misogynist. And I don't need to use the "this woman had sex with men and enjoyed it, therefore you are a misogynist" argument to prove that.
I'm not :/.
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On August 24 2012 04:22 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 04:15 JinDesu wrote:On August 24 2012 04:13 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:13 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 04:11 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:08 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:04 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:02 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:01 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 03:59 Byzantium wrote:
[quote]
The justice system has (tragically) some non-zero amount of Type 1 error: that is, false imprisonment. Due to this fact, we should increase the amount of Type 2 error: that is, wrongful acquittal by allowing an irrelevant argument to acquit people (in the hopes that it will decrease the type 1 error, I guess).
I'm not sure why this makes sense, and as far as I can tell seems to be your position. Meanwhile your position is "prosecute everything" and suddenly the non-zero false imprisonment goes up and that's fine with you. Makes a lot more sense. I'm sorry, I don't see myself taking a position at all here (please quote me where I stated one that would seem to suggest this if I did); I don't think that's anyone's position in fact. I'm not pretending my position is perfect. My position is what I consider to be the more moral compromise to make given our imperfect justice system which simply can't know everything. So your solution to imperfect knowledge is to introduce additional variance in the form of giving credence to a line of argument you yourself have said is irrelevant? That's only going to worsen the imperfect knowledge problem by inducing additional variance. You acknowledge that your position leads to more innocent people to go to jail? Then congrats, we agree to disagree. I personally care more about the freedom of innocents than the prosecution of the guilty. What about just scrapping all rape laws. That way no innocent men will ever be convicted of rape. I guess I just care more about the freedom of innocents than you. How about some more slippery slopes. Maybe we kill everyone too. That's how you argue. On August 24 2012 04:13 JinDesu wrote:On August 24 2012 04:11 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:08 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:04 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:02 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:01 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 03:59 Byzantium wrote:
[quote]
The justice system has (tragically) some non-zero amount of Type 1 error: that is, false imprisonment. Due to this fact, we should increase the amount of Type 2 error: that is, wrongful acquittal by allowing an irrelevant argument to acquit people (in the hopes that it will decrease the type 1 error, I guess).
I'm not sure why this makes sense, and as far as I can tell seems to be your position. Meanwhile your position is "prosecute everything" and suddenly the non-zero false imprisonment goes up and that's fine with you. Makes a lot more sense. I'm sorry, I don't see myself taking a position at all here (please quote me where I stated one that would seem to suggest this if I did); I don't think that's anyone's position in fact. I'm not pretending my position is perfect. My position is what I consider to be the more moral compromise to make given our imperfect justice system which simply can't know everything. So your solution to imperfect knowledge is to introduce additional variance in the form of giving credence to a line of argument you yourself have said is irrelevant? That's only going to worsen the imperfect knowledge problem by inducing additional variance. You acknowledge that your position leads to more innocent people to go to jail? Then congrats, we agree to disagree. I personally care more about the freedom of innocents than the prosecution of the guilty. Your position validates the raping of promiscuous women. No. Then how do you protect promiscuous women in a court of law, if the argument that "they are promiscuous, the defendant is innocent" is used? A court of law should be about finding the truth. It should not be swayed by imperfect arguments. If you are complaining that the courts are bad at their jobs, then the solution is not to continue allowing an imperfect argument, but to reform the court.I fail to see why that is so hard to understand. Just let go of the promiscuous women then, that was faulty in part and my response to a faulty justice system which prosecutes innocent men based on faulty arguments of the prosecution, and as such, I was advocating the use of bad argument by the defense to avoid the prosecution of innocent men. The failure of all of you to have a view that's the slightest bit nuanced is shocking to me.
There is a difference between "nuanced" and "bullshit". Advocating the use of bad arguments by attorneys, for any reason, is bullshit. It doesn't serve justice.
If you want to make the justice system in rape cases better, you need to propose something that will actually be an improvement. Which first means that you need to establish that there's a problem.
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On August 24 2012 04:22 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 04:15 JinDesu wrote:On August 24 2012 04:13 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:13 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 04:11 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:08 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:04 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:02 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:01 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 03:59 Byzantium wrote:
[quote]
The justice system has (tragically) some non-zero amount of Type 1 error: that is, false imprisonment. Due to this fact, we should increase the amount of Type 2 error: that is, wrongful acquittal by allowing an irrelevant argument to acquit people (in the hopes that it will decrease the type 1 error, I guess).
I'm not sure why this makes sense, and as far as I can tell seems to be your position. Meanwhile your position is "prosecute everything" and suddenly the non-zero false imprisonment goes up and that's fine with you. Makes a lot more sense. I'm sorry, I don't see myself taking a position at all here (please quote me where I stated one that would seem to suggest this if I did); I don't think that's anyone's position in fact. I'm not pretending my position is perfect. My position is what I consider to be the more moral compromise to make given our imperfect justice system which simply can't know everything. So your solution to imperfect knowledge is to introduce additional variance in the form of giving credence to a line of argument you yourself have said is irrelevant? That's only going to worsen the imperfect knowledge problem by inducing additional variance. You acknowledge that your position leads to more innocent people to go to jail? Then congrats, we agree to disagree. I personally care more about the freedom of innocents than the prosecution of the guilty. What about just scrapping all rape laws. That way no innocent men will ever be convicted of rape. I guess I just care more about the freedom of innocents than you. How about some more slippery slopes. Maybe we kill everyone too. That's how you argue. On August 24 2012 04:13 JinDesu wrote:On August 24 2012 04:11 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:08 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:04 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:02 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:01 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 03:59 Byzantium wrote:
[quote]
The justice system has (tragically) some non-zero amount of Type 1 error: that is, false imprisonment. Due to this fact, we should increase the amount of Type 2 error: that is, wrongful acquittal by allowing an irrelevant argument to acquit people (in the hopes that it will decrease the type 1 error, I guess).
I'm not sure why this makes sense, and as far as I can tell seems to be your position. Meanwhile your position is "prosecute everything" and suddenly the non-zero false imprisonment goes up and that's fine with you. Makes a lot more sense. I'm sorry, I don't see myself taking a position at all here (please quote me where I stated one that would seem to suggest this if I did); I don't think that's anyone's position in fact. I'm not pretending my position is perfect. My position is what I consider to be the more moral compromise to make given our imperfect justice system which simply can't know everything. So your solution to imperfect knowledge is to introduce additional variance in the form of giving credence to a line of argument you yourself have said is irrelevant? That's only going to worsen the imperfect knowledge problem by inducing additional variance. You acknowledge that your position leads to more innocent people to go to jail? Then congrats, we agree to disagree. I personally care more about the freedom of innocents than the prosecution of the guilty. Your position validates the raping of promiscuous women. No. Then how do you protect promiscuous women in a court of law, if the argument that "they are promiscuous, the defendant is innocent" is used? A court of law should be about finding the truth. It should not be swayed by imperfect arguments. If you are complaining that the courts are bad at their jobs, then the solution is not to continue allowing an imperfect argument, but to reform the court.I fail to see why that is so hard to understand. ...I was advocating the use of bad argument by the defense to avoid the prosecution of innocent men. ... And to call me a misogynist is ridiculous
and the truth!..... shall set him free!!!
you admit that the premiscuity of a woman is irrelivant to rape cases!
therefore you cannot deny that it is clearly mysogynistic to do so playing off societies view of premiscuous women!
therefore you admit that advocating that is mysogynistic!
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Can we please stop mixing up "prosecution" with "conviction"?
On August 24 2012 04:22 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 04:15 JinDesu wrote:On August 24 2012 04:13 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:13 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 04:11 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:08 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:04 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:02 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:01 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 03:59 Byzantium wrote:
[quote]
The justice system has (tragically) some non-zero amount of Type 1 error: that is, false imprisonment. Due to this fact, we should increase the amount of Type 2 error: that is, wrongful acquittal by allowing an irrelevant argument to acquit people (in the hopes that it will decrease the type 1 error, I guess).
I'm not sure why this makes sense, and as far as I can tell seems to be your position. Meanwhile your position is "prosecute everything" and suddenly the non-zero false imprisonment goes up and that's fine with you. Makes a lot more sense. I'm sorry, I don't see myself taking a position at all here (please quote me where I stated one that would seem to suggest this if I did); I don't think that's anyone's position in fact. I'm not pretending my position is perfect. My position is what I consider to be the more moral compromise to make given our imperfect justice system which simply can't know everything. So your solution to imperfect knowledge is to introduce additional variance in the form of giving credence to a line of argument you yourself have said is irrelevant? That's only going to worsen the imperfect knowledge problem by inducing additional variance. You acknowledge that your position leads to more innocent people to go to jail? Then congrats, we agree to disagree. I personally care more about the freedom of innocents than the prosecution of the guilty. What about just scrapping all rape laws. That way no innocent men will ever be convicted of rape. I guess I just care more about the freedom of innocents than you. How about some more slippery slopes. Maybe we kill everyone too. That's how you argue. On August 24 2012 04:13 JinDesu wrote:On August 24 2012 04:11 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:08 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:04 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:02 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:01 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 03:59 Byzantium wrote:
[quote]
The justice system has (tragically) some non-zero amount of Type 1 error: that is, false imprisonment. Due to this fact, we should increase the amount of Type 2 error: that is, wrongful acquittal by allowing an irrelevant argument to acquit people (in the hopes that it will decrease the type 1 error, I guess).
I'm not sure why this makes sense, and as far as I can tell seems to be your position. Meanwhile your position is "prosecute everything" and suddenly the non-zero false imprisonment goes up and that's fine with you. Makes a lot more sense. I'm sorry, I don't see myself taking a position at all here (please quote me where I stated one that would seem to suggest this if I did); I don't think that's anyone's position in fact. I'm not pretending my position is perfect. My position is what I consider to be the more moral compromise to make given our imperfect justice system which simply can't know everything. So your solution to imperfect knowledge is to introduce additional variance in the form of giving credence to a line of argument you yourself have said is irrelevant? That's only going to worsen the imperfect knowledge problem by inducing additional variance. You acknowledge that your position leads to more innocent people to go to jail? Then congrats, we agree to disagree. I personally care more about the freedom of innocents than the prosecution of the guilty. Your position validates the raping of promiscuous women. No. Then how do you protect promiscuous women in a court of law, if the argument that "they are promiscuous, the defendant is innocent" is used? A court of law should be about finding the truth. It should not be swayed by imperfect arguments. If you are complaining that the courts are bad at their jobs, then the solution is not to continue allowing an imperfect argument, but to reform the court.I fail to see why that is so hard to understand. Just let go of the promiscuous women thing then, that was faulty in part and my response to a faulty justice system which prosecutes innocent men based on faulty arguments of the prosecution, and as such, I was advocating the use of bad argument by the defense to avoid the prosecution of innocent men. The failure of all of you to have a view that's the slightest bit nuanced is shocking to me. And to call me a misogynist is ridiculous NicolBolas. Have some respect.
You have consistently argued against the very idea of rape culture, and argued in favor of a legal system which routinely allows rapists to go free. Favoring institutions that cause unspeakable harm to women is not a favorable thing on the misogynistic front.
Hmm... may I ask what makes you think that there are so many innocent men in prison for rape right now?
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So instead of arguing for improving the justice system so both the number of innocents proclaimed guilty and the number of guilty going free is minimized, Djzaps argues for introduction of roulette to decide some court cases.The funny thing is that he is grossly exaggerating number of false "positives" in rape cases, unless Canada is some crazy outlier. One of the things that can be done about the whole issue is then to get rid of trial by jury.
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On August 24 2012 04:22 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 04:15 JinDesu wrote:On August 24 2012 04:13 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:13 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 04:11 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:08 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:04 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:02 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:01 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 03:59 Byzantium wrote:
[quote]
The justice system has (tragically) some non-zero amount of Type 1 error: that is, false imprisonment. Due to this fact, we should increase the amount of Type 2 error: that is, wrongful acquittal by allowing an irrelevant argument to acquit people (in the hopes that it will decrease the type 1 error, I guess).
I'm not sure why this makes sense, and as far as I can tell seems to be your position. Meanwhile your position is "prosecute everything" and suddenly the non-zero false imprisonment goes up and that's fine with you. Makes a lot more sense. I'm sorry, I don't see myself taking a position at all here (please quote me where I stated one that would seem to suggest this if I did); I don't think that's anyone's position in fact. I'm not pretending my position is perfect. My position is what I consider to be the more moral compromise to make given our imperfect justice system which simply can't know everything. So your solution to imperfect knowledge is to introduce additional variance in the form of giving credence to a line of argument you yourself have said is irrelevant? That's only going to worsen the imperfect knowledge problem by inducing additional variance. You acknowledge that your position leads to more innocent people to go to jail? Then congrats, we agree to disagree. I personally care more about the freedom of innocents than the prosecution of the guilty. What about just scrapping all rape laws. That way no innocent men will ever be convicted of rape. I guess I just care more about the freedom of innocents than you. How about some more slippery slopes. Maybe we kill everyone too. That's how you argue. On August 24 2012 04:13 JinDesu wrote:On August 24 2012 04:11 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:08 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:04 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:02 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:01 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 03:59 Byzantium wrote:
[quote]
The justice system has (tragically) some non-zero amount of Type 1 error: that is, false imprisonment. Due to this fact, we should increase the amount of Type 2 error: that is, wrongful acquittal by allowing an irrelevant argument to acquit people (in the hopes that it will decrease the type 1 error, I guess).
I'm not sure why this makes sense, and as far as I can tell seems to be your position. Meanwhile your position is "prosecute everything" and suddenly the non-zero false imprisonment goes up and that's fine with you. Makes a lot more sense. I'm sorry, I don't see myself taking a position at all here (please quote me where I stated one that would seem to suggest this if I did); I don't think that's anyone's position in fact. I'm not pretending my position is perfect. My position is what I consider to be the more moral compromise to make given our imperfect justice system which simply can't know everything. So your solution to imperfect knowledge is to introduce additional variance in the form of giving credence to a line of argument you yourself have said is irrelevant? That's only going to worsen the imperfect knowledge problem by inducing additional variance. You acknowledge that your position leads to more innocent people to go to jail? Then congrats, we agree to disagree. I personally care more about the freedom of innocents than the prosecution of the guilty. Your position validates the raping of promiscuous women. No. Then how do you protect promiscuous women in a court of law, if the argument that "they are promiscuous, the defendant is innocent" is used? A court of law should be about finding the truth. It should not be swayed by imperfect arguments. If you are complaining that the courts are bad at their jobs, then the solution is not to continue allowing an imperfect argument, but to reform the court.I fail to see why that is so hard to understand. Just let go of the promiscuous women thing then, that was faulty in part and my response to a faulty justice system which prosecutes innocent men based on faulty arguments of the prosecution, and as such, I was advocating the use of bad argument by the defense to avoid the prosecution of innocent men. The failure of all of you to have a view that's the slightest bit nuanced is shocking to me. And to call me a misogynist is ridiculous NicolBolas. Have some respect.
I would say have a nuanced opinion, your line of reasoning was a bit odd, is all. You seem to be concerned with the wrongfully convicted, I am too. I think that because evidence in rape cases is so hard to obtain in rape cases, it is quite plausible that a disproportionately large amount of innocent people get convicted. Some years ago, a left-wing party over here, even proposed changing the law so that the acussed would have to prove he didn't rape her.
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On August 24 2012 04:27 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 04:22 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:15 JinDesu wrote:On August 24 2012 04:13 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:13 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 04:11 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:08 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:04 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:02 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:01 Djzapz wrote:
[quote]
Meanwhile your position is "prosecute everything" and suddenly the non-zero false imprisonment goes up and that's fine with you.
Makes a lot more sense. I'm sorry, I don't see myself taking a position at all here (please quote me where I stated one that would seem to suggest this if I did); I don't think that's anyone's position in fact. I'm not pretending my position is perfect. My position is what I consider to be the more moral compromise to make given our imperfect justice system which simply can't know everything. So your solution to imperfect knowledge is to introduce additional variance in the form of giving credence to a line of argument you yourself have said is irrelevant? That's only going to worsen the imperfect knowledge problem by inducing additional variance. You acknowledge that your position leads to more innocent people to go to jail? Then congrats, we agree to disagree. I personally care more about the freedom of innocents than the prosecution of the guilty. What about just scrapping all rape laws. That way no innocent men will ever be convicted of rape. I guess I just care more about the freedom of innocents than you. How about some more slippery slopes. Maybe we kill everyone too. That's how you argue. On August 24 2012 04:13 JinDesu wrote:On August 24 2012 04:11 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:08 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:04 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:02 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:01 Djzapz wrote:
[quote]
Meanwhile your position is "prosecute everything" and suddenly the non-zero false imprisonment goes up and that's fine with you.
Makes a lot more sense. I'm sorry, I don't see myself taking a position at all here (please quote me where I stated one that would seem to suggest this if I did); I don't think that's anyone's position in fact. I'm not pretending my position is perfect. My position is what I consider to be the more moral compromise to make given our imperfect justice system which simply can't know everything. So your solution to imperfect knowledge is to introduce additional variance in the form of giving credence to a line of argument you yourself have said is irrelevant? That's only going to worsen the imperfect knowledge problem by inducing additional variance. You acknowledge that your position leads to more innocent people to go to jail? Then congrats, we agree to disagree. I personally care more about the freedom of innocents than the prosecution of the guilty. Your position validates the raping of promiscuous women. No. Then how do you protect promiscuous women in a court of law, if the argument that "they are promiscuous, the defendant is innocent" is used? A court of law should be about finding the truth. It should not be swayed by imperfect arguments. If you are complaining that the courts are bad at their jobs, then the solution is not to continue allowing an imperfect argument, but to reform the court.I fail to see why that is so hard to understand. Just let go of the promiscuous women then, that was faulty in part and my response to a faulty justice system which prosecutes innocent men based on faulty arguments of the prosecution, and as such, I was advocating the use of bad argument by the defense to avoid the prosecution of innocent men. The failure of all of you to have a view that's the slightest bit nuanced is shocking to me. There is a difference between "nuanced" and "bullshit". Advocating the use of bad arguments by attorneys, for any reason, is bullshit. It doesn't serve justice. If you want to make the justice system in rape cases better, you need to propose something that will actually be an improvement. Which first means that you need to establish that there's a problem. Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 04:22 Djzapz wrote:
And to call me a misogynist is ridiculous NicolBolas. Have some respect. There are more people than you involved in this topic. I was responding to what JinDesu said. Pay attention to the quotes.
*cough*
I was reiterating his[Djzapz's] original argument. You could claim the misogyny accusation applies to the argument, but it could equally apply to Djzapz, as it was his argument.
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On August 24 2012 04:28 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 04:22 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:15 JinDesu wrote:On August 24 2012 04:13 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:13 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 04:11 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:08 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:04 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:02 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:01 Djzapz wrote:
[quote]
Meanwhile your position is "prosecute everything" and suddenly the non-zero false imprisonment goes up and that's fine with you.
Makes a lot more sense. I'm sorry, I don't see myself taking a position at all here (please quote me where I stated one that would seem to suggest this if I did); I don't think that's anyone's position in fact. I'm not pretending my position is perfect. My position is what I consider to be the more moral compromise to make given our imperfect justice system which simply can't know everything. So your solution to imperfect knowledge is to introduce additional variance in the form of giving credence to a line of argument you yourself have said is irrelevant? That's only going to worsen the imperfect knowledge problem by inducing additional variance. You acknowledge that your position leads to more innocent people to go to jail? Then congrats, we agree to disagree. I personally care more about the freedom of innocents than the prosecution of the guilty. What about just scrapping all rape laws. That way no innocent men will ever be convicted of rape. I guess I just care more about the freedom of innocents than you. How about some more slippery slopes. Maybe we kill everyone too. That's how you argue. On August 24 2012 04:13 JinDesu wrote:On August 24 2012 04:11 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:08 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:04 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:02 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:01 Djzapz wrote:
[quote]
Meanwhile your position is "prosecute everything" and suddenly the non-zero false imprisonment goes up and that's fine with you.
Makes a lot more sense. I'm sorry, I don't see myself taking a position at all here (please quote me where I stated one that would seem to suggest this if I did); I don't think that's anyone's position in fact. I'm not pretending my position is perfect. My position is what I consider to be the more moral compromise to make given our imperfect justice system which simply can't know everything. So your solution to imperfect knowledge is to introduce additional variance in the form of giving credence to a line of argument you yourself have said is irrelevant? That's only going to worsen the imperfect knowledge problem by inducing additional variance. You acknowledge that your position leads to more innocent people to go to jail? Then congrats, we agree to disagree. I personally care more about the freedom of innocents than the prosecution of the guilty. Your position validates the raping of promiscuous women. No. Then how do you protect promiscuous women in a court of law, if the argument that "they are promiscuous, the defendant is innocent" is used? A court of law should be about finding the truth. It should not be swayed by imperfect arguments. If you are complaining that the courts are bad at their jobs, then the solution is not to continue allowing an imperfect argument, but to reform the court.I fail to see why that is so hard to understand. ...I was advocating the use of bad argument by the defense to avoid the prosecution of innocent men. ... And to call me a misogynist is ridiculous and the truth!..... shall set him free!!! you admit that the premiscuity of a woman is irrelivant to rape cases! therefore you cannot deny that it is clearly mysoginistic to do so playing off societies view of premiscuous women! therefore you admit that advocating that is mysoginistic!
No, I merely said that the argument made sense from a defense standpoint, and that it could lead to the freedom of innocent men.
I am not a misogynist and I understand your arguments, I do. I just value the freedom of innocent people.
I don't generally take offense to what people say on forums, but you people are clearly not trolls and so I actually do kind of care about what you think of me. I am not a misogynist. My arguments were made from a practical standpoint. Trust me -_-.
I'm not a bad person.
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On August 24 2012 04:30 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 04:28 ComaDose wrote:On August 24 2012 04:22 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:15 JinDesu wrote:On August 24 2012 04:13 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:13 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 04:11 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:08 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:04 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:02 Byzantium wrote:
[quote]
I'm sorry, I don't see myself taking a position at all here (please quote me where I stated one that would seem to suggest this if I did); I don't think that's anyone's position in fact. I'm not pretending my position is perfect. My position is what I consider to be the more moral compromise to make given our imperfect justice system which simply can't know everything. So your solution to imperfect knowledge is to introduce additional variance in the form of giving credence to a line of argument you yourself have said is irrelevant? That's only going to worsen the imperfect knowledge problem by inducing additional variance. You acknowledge that your position leads to more innocent people to go to jail? Then congrats, we agree to disagree. I personally care more about the freedom of innocents than the prosecution of the guilty. What about just scrapping all rape laws. That way no innocent men will ever be convicted of rape. I guess I just care more about the freedom of innocents than you. How about some more slippery slopes. Maybe we kill everyone too. That's how you argue. On August 24 2012 04:13 JinDesu wrote:On August 24 2012 04:11 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:08 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:04 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:02 Byzantium wrote:
[quote]
I'm sorry, I don't see myself taking a position at all here (please quote me where I stated one that would seem to suggest this if I did); I don't think that's anyone's position in fact. I'm not pretending my position is perfect. My position is what I consider to be the more moral compromise to make given our imperfect justice system which simply can't know everything. So your solution to imperfect knowledge is to introduce additional variance in the form of giving credence to a line of argument you yourself have said is irrelevant? That's only going to worsen the imperfect knowledge problem by inducing additional variance. You acknowledge that your position leads to more innocent people to go to jail? Then congrats, we agree to disagree. I personally care more about the freedom of innocents than the prosecution of the guilty. Your position validates the raping of promiscuous women. No. Then how do you protect promiscuous women in a court of law, if the argument that "they are promiscuous, the defendant is innocent" is used? A court of law should be about finding the truth. It should not be swayed by imperfect arguments. If you are complaining that the courts are bad at their jobs, then the solution is not to continue allowing an imperfect argument, but to reform the court.I fail to see why that is so hard to understand. ...I was advocating the use of bad argument by the defense to avoid the prosecution of innocent men. ... And to call me a misogynist is ridiculous and the truth!..... shall set him free!!! you admit that the premiscuity of a woman is irrelivant to rape cases! therefore you cannot deny that it is clearly mysoginistic to do so playing off societies view of premiscuous women! therefore you admit that advocating that is mysoginistic! No, I merely said that the argument made sense from a defense standpoint, and that it could lead to the freedom of innocent men. I am not a misogynist and I understand your arguments, I do. I just value the freedom of innocent people.
no you said slutty women should have less chance of winning in court
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On August 24 2012 04:30 JinDesu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 04:27 NicolBolas wrote:On August 24 2012 04:22 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:15 JinDesu wrote:On August 24 2012 04:13 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:13 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 04:11 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:08 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:04 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:02 Byzantium wrote:
[quote]
I'm sorry, I don't see myself taking a position at all here (please quote me where I stated one that would seem to suggest this if I did); I don't think that's anyone's position in fact. I'm not pretending my position is perfect. My position is what I consider to be the more moral compromise to make given our imperfect justice system which simply can't know everything. So your solution to imperfect knowledge is to introduce additional variance in the form of giving credence to a line of argument you yourself have said is irrelevant? That's only going to worsen the imperfect knowledge problem by inducing additional variance. You acknowledge that your position leads to more innocent people to go to jail? Then congrats, we agree to disagree. I personally care more about the freedom of innocents than the prosecution of the guilty. What about just scrapping all rape laws. That way no innocent men will ever be convicted of rape. I guess I just care more about the freedom of innocents than you. How about some more slippery slopes. Maybe we kill everyone too. That's how you argue. On August 24 2012 04:13 JinDesu wrote:On August 24 2012 04:11 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:08 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:04 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:02 Byzantium wrote:
[quote]
I'm sorry, I don't see myself taking a position at all here (please quote me where I stated one that would seem to suggest this if I did); I don't think that's anyone's position in fact. I'm not pretending my position is perfect. My position is what I consider to be the more moral compromise to make given our imperfect justice system which simply can't know everything. So your solution to imperfect knowledge is to introduce additional variance in the form of giving credence to a line of argument you yourself have said is irrelevant? That's only going to worsen the imperfect knowledge problem by inducing additional variance. You acknowledge that your position leads to more innocent people to go to jail? Then congrats, we agree to disagree. I personally care more about the freedom of innocents than the prosecution of the guilty. Your position validates the raping of promiscuous women. No. Then how do you protect promiscuous women in a court of law, if the argument that "they are promiscuous, the defendant is innocent" is used? A court of law should be about finding the truth. It should not be swayed by imperfect arguments. If you are complaining that the courts are bad at their jobs, then the solution is not to continue allowing an imperfect argument, but to reform the court.I fail to see why that is so hard to understand. Just let go of the promiscuous women then, that was faulty in part and my response to a faulty justice system which prosecutes innocent men based on faulty arguments of the prosecution, and as such, I was advocating the use of bad argument by the defense to avoid the prosecution of innocent men. The failure of all of you to have a view that's the slightest bit nuanced is shocking to me. There is a difference between "nuanced" and "bullshit". Advocating the use of bad arguments by attorneys, for any reason, is bullshit. It doesn't serve justice. If you want to make the justice system in rape cases better, you need to propose something that will actually be an improvement. Which first means that you need to establish that there's a problem. On August 24 2012 04:22 Djzapz wrote:
And to call me a misogynist is ridiculous NicolBolas. Have some respect. There are more people than you involved in this topic. I was responding to what JinDesu said. Pay attention to the quotes. *cough* I was reiterating his[Djzapz's] original argument. You could claim the misogyny accusation applies to the argument, but it could equally apply to Djzapz, as it was his argument.
Sorry; I noticed that and removed that part of my post.
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On August 24 2012 04:31 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 04:30 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:28 ComaDose wrote:On August 24 2012 04:22 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:15 JinDesu wrote:On August 24 2012 04:13 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:13 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 04:11 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:08 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:04 Djzapz wrote:
[quote]
I'm not pretending my position is perfect. My position is what I consider to be the more moral compromise to make given our imperfect justice system which simply can't know everything. So your solution to imperfect knowledge is to introduce additional variance in the form of giving credence to a line of argument you yourself have said is irrelevant? That's only going to worsen the imperfect knowledge problem by inducing additional variance. You acknowledge that your position leads to more innocent people to go to jail? Then congrats, we agree to disagree. I personally care more about the freedom of innocents than the prosecution of the guilty. What about just scrapping all rape laws. That way no innocent men will ever be convicted of rape. I guess I just care more about the freedom of innocents than you. How about some more slippery slopes. Maybe we kill everyone too. That's how you argue. On August 24 2012 04:13 JinDesu wrote:On August 24 2012 04:11 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:08 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:04 Djzapz wrote:
[quote]
I'm not pretending my position is perfect. My position is what I consider to be the more moral compromise to make given our imperfect justice system which simply can't know everything. So your solution to imperfect knowledge is to introduce additional variance in the form of giving credence to a line of argument you yourself have said is irrelevant? That's only going to worsen the imperfect knowledge problem by inducing additional variance. You acknowledge that your position leads to more innocent people to go to jail? Then congrats, we agree to disagree. I personally care more about the freedom of innocents than the prosecution of the guilty. Your position validates the raping of promiscuous women. No. Then how do you protect promiscuous women in a court of law, if the argument that "they are promiscuous, the defendant is innocent" is used? A court of law should be about finding the truth. It should not be swayed by imperfect arguments. If you are complaining that the courts are bad at their jobs, then the solution is not to continue allowing an imperfect argument, but to reform the court.I fail to see why that is so hard to understand. ...I was advocating the use of bad argument by the defense to avoid the prosecution of innocent men. ... And to call me a misogynist is ridiculous and the truth!..... shall set him free!!! you admit that the premiscuity of a woman is irrelivant to rape cases! therefore you cannot deny that it is clearly mysoginistic to do so playing off societies view of premiscuous women! therefore you admit that advocating that is mysoginistic! No, I merely said that the argument made sense from a defense standpoint, and that it could lead to the freedom of innocent men. I am not a misogynist and I understand your arguments, I do. I just value the freedom of innocent people. no you said slutty women should have less chance of winning in court
No, I never used the word slutty. And I said it's an understandable argument to make.
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United States41983 Posts
On August 24 2012 04:27 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 04:25 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 04:22 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:15 JinDesu wrote:On August 24 2012 04:13 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:13 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 04:11 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:08 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:04 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:02 Byzantium wrote:
[quote]
I'm sorry, I don't see myself taking a position at all here (please quote me where I stated one that would seem to suggest this if I did); I don't think that's anyone's position in fact. I'm not pretending my position is perfect. My position is what I consider to be the more moral compromise to make given our imperfect justice system which simply can't know everything. So your solution to imperfect knowledge is to introduce additional variance in the form of giving credence to a line of argument you yourself have said is irrelevant? That's only going to worsen the imperfect knowledge problem by inducing additional variance. You acknowledge that your position leads to more innocent people to go to jail? Then congrats, we agree to disagree. I personally care more about the freedom of innocents than the prosecution of the guilty. What about just scrapping all rape laws. That way no innocent men will ever be convicted of rape. I guess I just care more about the freedom of innocents than you. How about some more slippery slopes. Maybe we kill everyone too. That's how you argue. On August 24 2012 04:13 JinDesu wrote:On August 24 2012 04:11 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:08 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:04 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:02 Byzantium wrote:
[quote]
I'm sorry, I don't see myself taking a position at all here (please quote me where I stated one that would seem to suggest this if I did); I don't think that's anyone's position in fact. I'm not pretending my position is perfect. My position is what I consider to be the more moral compromise to make given our imperfect justice system which simply can't know everything. So your solution to imperfect knowledge is to introduce additional variance in the form of giving credence to a line of argument you yourself have said is irrelevant? That's only going to worsen the imperfect knowledge problem by inducing additional variance. You acknowledge that your position leads to more innocent people to go to jail? Then congrats, we agree to disagree. I personally care more about the freedom of innocents than the prosecution of the guilty. Your position validates the raping of promiscuous women. No. Then how do you protect promiscuous women in a court of law, if the argument that "they are promiscuous, the defendant is innocent" is used? A court of law should be about finding the truth. It should not be swayed by imperfect arguments. If you are complaining that the courts are bad at their jobs, then the solution is not to continue allowing an imperfect argument, but to reform the court.I fail to see why that is so hard to understand. Just let go of the promiscuous women thing then, that was faulty in part and my response to a faulty justice system which prosecutes innocent men based on faulty arguments of the prosecution, and as such, I was advocating the use of bad argument by the defense to avoid the prosecution of innocent men. The failure of all of you to have a view that's the slightest bit nuanced is shocking to me. And to call me a misogynist is ridiculous NicolBolas. Have some respect. No, you are very clearly a misogynist. And I don't need to use the "this woman had sex with men and enjoyed it, therefore you are a misogynist" argument to prove that. I'm not :/.
Your obsession with false rape accusations suggests otherwise. A very low proportion of rapes are reported, fewer still make it to trial in cases where there is very little evidence. This idea that all a woman needs to do is cry rape is a myth perpetrated primarily by circle jerking misogynist cells such as the MRA forums on reddit. The cases which actually make it to court are the ones in which there is the potential for a conviction, ie those with evidence. I don't exclude the possibility of an innocent man being found guilty of rape but to advocate large scale perversion of the justice system, targeted primarily at women who have sex, to enable people accused of rape to walk free by humiliating the alleged victims seems an immensely hateful act. To go on to claim that it is simply because you care that much about the small number of innocents can only mean that you care far more about them than the victims who, should your argument succeed, will be told that in the eyes of the law the rape that they suffered is justifiable because they had too much sex. If that isn't misogyny then I don't know what is.
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On August 24 2012 04:30 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 04:28 ComaDose wrote:On August 24 2012 04:22 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:15 JinDesu wrote:On August 24 2012 04:13 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:13 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 04:11 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:08 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:04 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:02 Byzantium wrote:
[quote]
I'm sorry, I don't see myself taking a position at all here (please quote me where I stated one that would seem to suggest this if I did); I don't think that's anyone's position in fact. I'm not pretending my position is perfect. My position is what I consider to be the more moral compromise to make given our imperfect justice system which simply can't know everything. So your solution to imperfect knowledge is to introduce additional variance in the form of giving credence to a line of argument you yourself have said is irrelevant? That's only going to worsen the imperfect knowledge problem by inducing additional variance. You acknowledge that your position leads to more innocent people to go to jail? Then congrats, we agree to disagree. I personally care more about the freedom of innocents than the prosecution of the guilty. What about just scrapping all rape laws. That way no innocent men will ever be convicted of rape. I guess I just care more about the freedom of innocents than you. How about some more slippery slopes. Maybe we kill everyone too. That's how you argue. On August 24 2012 04:13 JinDesu wrote:On August 24 2012 04:11 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:08 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:04 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:02 Byzantium wrote:
[quote]
I'm sorry, I don't see myself taking a position at all here (please quote me where I stated one that would seem to suggest this if I did); I don't think that's anyone's position in fact. I'm not pretending my position is perfect. My position is what I consider to be the more moral compromise to make given our imperfect justice system which simply can't know everything. So your solution to imperfect knowledge is to introduce additional variance in the form of giving credence to a line of argument you yourself have said is irrelevant? That's only going to worsen the imperfect knowledge problem by inducing additional variance. You acknowledge that your position leads to more innocent people to go to jail? Then congrats, we agree to disagree. I personally care more about the freedom of innocents than the prosecution of the guilty. Your position validates the raping of promiscuous women. No. Then how do you protect promiscuous women in a court of law, if the argument that "they are promiscuous, the defendant is innocent" is used? A court of law should be about finding the truth. It should not be swayed by imperfect arguments. If you are complaining that the courts are bad at their jobs, then the solution is not to continue allowing an imperfect argument, but to reform the court.I fail to see why that is so hard to understand. ...I was advocating the use of bad argument by the defense to avoid the prosecution of innocent men. ... And to call me a misogynist is ridiculous and the truth!..... shall set him free!!! you admit that the premiscuity of a woman is irrelivant to rape cases! therefore you cannot deny that it is clearly mysoginistic to do so playing off societies view of premiscuous women! therefore you admit that advocating that is mysoginistic! No, I merely said that the argument made sense from a defense standpoint, and that it could lead to the freedom of innocent men. I am not a misogynist and I understand your arguments, I do. I just value the freedom of innocent people. I don't generally take offense to what people say on forums, but you people are clearly not trolls and so I actually do kind of care about what you think of me. I am not a misogynist. My arguments were made from a practical standpoint. Trust me -_-. I'm not a bad person.
I think the correct way to state your view is that you value the freedom of innocent people more than you value the notion of having a useful justice system.
Is that correct? Because your arguments imply that.
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On August 24 2012 04:32 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 04:31 ComaDose wrote:On August 24 2012 04:30 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:28 ComaDose wrote:On August 24 2012 04:22 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:15 JinDesu wrote:On August 24 2012 04:13 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:13 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 04:11 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:08 Byzantium wrote:
[quote]
So your solution to imperfect knowledge is to introduce additional variance in the form of giving credence to a line of argument you yourself have said is irrelevant? That's only going to worsen the imperfect knowledge problem by inducing additional variance. You acknowledge that your position leads to more innocent people to go to jail? Then congrats, we agree to disagree. I personally care more about the freedom of innocents than the prosecution of the guilty. What about just scrapping all rape laws. That way no innocent men will ever be convicted of rape. I guess I just care more about the freedom of innocents than you. How about some more slippery slopes. Maybe we kill everyone too. That's how you argue. On August 24 2012 04:13 JinDesu wrote:On August 24 2012 04:11 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:08 Byzantium wrote:
[quote]
So your solution to imperfect knowledge is to introduce additional variance in the form of giving credence to a line of argument you yourself have said is irrelevant? That's only going to worsen the imperfect knowledge problem by inducing additional variance. You acknowledge that your position leads to more innocent people to go to jail? Then congrats, we agree to disagree. I personally care more about the freedom of innocents than the prosecution of the guilty. Your position validates the raping of promiscuous women. No. Then how do you protect promiscuous women in a court of law, if the argument that "they are promiscuous, the defendant is innocent" is used? A court of law should be about finding the truth. It should not be swayed by imperfect arguments. If you are complaining that the courts are bad at their jobs, then the solution is not to continue allowing an imperfect argument, but to reform the court.I fail to see why that is so hard to understand. ...I was advocating the use of bad argument by the defense to avoid the prosecution of innocent men. ... And to call me a misogynist is ridiculous and the truth!..... shall set him free!!! you admit that the premiscuity of a woman is irrelivant to rape cases! therefore you cannot deny that it is clearly mysoginistic to do so playing off societies view of premiscuous women! therefore you admit that advocating that is mysoginistic! No, I merely said that the argument made sense from a defense standpoint, and that it could lead to the freedom of innocent men. I am not a misogynist and I understand your arguments, I do. I just value the freedom of innocent people. no you said slutty women should have less chance of winning in court No, I never used the word slutty. And I said it's an understandable argument to make.
sorry for paraphrasing. but now you admit that its very much not an understandable argument to make and that it would be misogynistic to do so.
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On August 24 2012 04:30 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 04:28 ComaDose wrote:On August 24 2012 04:22 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:15 JinDesu wrote:On August 24 2012 04:13 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:13 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 04:11 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:08 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:04 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:02 Byzantium wrote:
[quote]
I'm sorry, I don't see myself taking a position at all here (please quote me where I stated one that would seem to suggest this if I did); I don't think that's anyone's position in fact. I'm not pretending my position is perfect. My position is what I consider to be the more moral compromise to make given our imperfect justice system which simply can't know everything. So your solution to imperfect knowledge is to introduce additional variance in the form of giving credence to a line of argument you yourself have said is irrelevant? That's only going to worsen the imperfect knowledge problem by inducing additional variance. You acknowledge that your position leads to more innocent people to go to jail? Then congrats, we agree to disagree. I personally care more about the freedom of innocents than the prosecution of the guilty. What about just scrapping all rape laws. That way no innocent men will ever be convicted of rape. I guess I just care more about the freedom of innocents than you. How about some more slippery slopes. Maybe we kill everyone too. That's how you argue. On August 24 2012 04:13 JinDesu wrote:On August 24 2012 04:11 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:08 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:04 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:02 Byzantium wrote:
[quote]
I'm sorry, I don't see myself taking a position at all here (please quote me where I stated one that would seem to suggest this if I did); I don't think that's anyone's position in fact. I'm not pretending my position is perfect. My position is what I consider to be the more moral compromise to make given our imperfect justice system which simply can't know everything. So your solution to imperfect knowledge is to introduce additional variance in the form of giving credence to a line of argument you yourself have said is irrelevant? That's only going to worsen the imperfect knowledge problem by inducing additional variance. You acknowledge that your position leads to more innocent people to go to jail? Then congrats, we agree to disagree. I personally care more about the freedom of innocents than the prosecution of the guilty. Your position validates the raping of promiscuous women. No. Then how do you protect promiscuous women in a court of law, if the argument that "they are promiscuous, the defendant is innocent" is used? A court of law should be about finding the truth. It should not be swayed by imperfect arguments. If you are complaining that the courts are bad at their jobs, then the solution is not to continue allowing an imperfect argument, but to reform the court.I fail to see why that is so hard to understand. ...I was advocating the use of bad argument by the defense to avoid the prosecution of innocent men. ... And to call me a misogynist is ridiculous and the truth!..... shall set him free!!! you admit that the premiscuity of a woman is irrelivant to rape cases! therefore you cannot deny that it is clearly mysoginistic to do so playing off societies view of premiscuous women! therefore you admit that advocating that is mysoginistic! I just value the freedom of innocent people.
As, as far as I can tell, does every single person arguing that your position is misguided. What all those disagreeing seem to depart from you upon is that you seem to be willing to make a tradeoff that, as this entire discussion shows, is highly unpalatable because innocent people's freedom is weighted as such an overwhelming priority compared to other ends.
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The strong feeling that I have against the imprisonment of innocent people in all cases cannot be called misogyny. I have the same stance regarding murder convictions and essentially all crimes.
I've always been that way in every sector. One man's deserved freedom is of high importance to me. The fact that you don't value it as much as I do doesn't make me a misogynist, and I take offense to that accusation. I view women as my equals.
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On August 24 2012 04:34 Vega62a wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 04:30 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:28 ComaDose wrote:On August 24 2012 04:22 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:15 JinDesu wrote:On August 24 2012 04:13 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:13 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 04:11 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:08 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:04 Djzapz wrote:
[quote]
I'm not pretending my position is perfect. My position is what I consider to be the more moral compromise to make given our imperfect justice system which simply can't know everything. So your solution to imperfect knowledge is to introduce additional variance in the form of giving credence to a line of argument you yourself have said is irrelevant? That's only going to worsen the imperfect knowledge problem by inducing additional variance. You acknowledge that your position leads to more innocent people to go to jail? Then congrats, we agree to disagree. I personally care more about the freedom of innocents than the prosecution of the guilty. What about just scrapping all rape laws. That way no innocent men will ever be convicted of rape. I guess I just care more about the freedom of innocents than you. How about some more slippery slopes. Maybe we kill everyone too. That's how you argue. On August 24 2012 04:13 JinDesu wrote:On August 24 2012 04:11 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 04:08 Byzantium wrote:On August 24 2012 04:04 Djzapz wrote:
[quote]
I'm not pretending my position is perfect. My position is what I consider to be the more moral compromise to make given our imperfect justice system which simply can't know everything. So your solution to imperfect knowledge is to introduce additional variance in the form of giving credence to a line of argument you yourself have said is irrelevant? That's only going to worsen the imperfect knowledge problem by inducing additional variance. You acknowledge that your position leads to more innocent people to go to jail? Then congrats, we agree to disagree. I personally care more about the freedom of innocents than the prosecution of the guilty. Your position validates the raping of promiscuous women. No. Then how do you protect promiscuous women in a court of law, if the argument that "they are promiscuous, the defendant is innocent" is used? A court of law should be about finding the truth. It should not be swayed by imperfect arguments. If you are complaining that the courts are bad at their jobs, then the solution is not to continue allowing an imperfect argument, but to reform the court.I fail to see why that is so hard to understand. ...I was advocating the use of bad argument by the defense to avoid the prosecution of innocent men. ... And to call me a misogynist is ridiculous and the truth!..... shall set him free!!! you admit that the premiscuity of a woman is irrelivant to rape cases! therefore you cannot deny that it is clearly mysoginistic to do so playing off societies view of premiscuous women! therefore you admit that advocating that is mysoginistic! No, I merely said that the argument made sense from a defense standpoint, and that it could lead to the freedom of innocent men. I am not a misogynist and I understand your arguments, I do. I just value the freedom of innocent people. I don't generally take offense to what people say on forums, but you people are clearly not trolls and so I actually do kind of care about what you think of me. I am not a misogynist. My arguments were made from a practical standpoint. Trust me -_-. I'm not a bad person. I think the correct way to state your view is that you value the freedom of innocent people more than you value the notion of having a useful justice system. Is that correct? Because your arguments imply that.
I think a better middleground can be achieved.
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On August 24 2012 04:36 Djzapz wrote:
The strong feeling that I have against the imprisonment of innocent people in all cases cannot be called misogyny. I have the same stance regarding murder convictions and essentially all crimes.
I've always been that way in every sector. One man's deserved freedom is of high importance to me. The fact that you don't value it as much as I do doesn't make me a misogynist, and I take offense to that accusation. I view women as my equals.
saying women who are premiscuous should have less chance in a rape case is misogyny
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Ok, now that we have sorted out the confusion with Djzapz statements, can we go back to the issue at hand, and address these issues: 1. that "rape culture" is a smokescreen. The act of rape is the thing itself. There is no culture to it because there are no mitigating circumstances to rape. 2. a universal, culturally inoffensice definition of rape, IF that is possible
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EPT
