EPTWhat is Rape? - Page 23
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
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NicolBolas
United States1388 Posts
On August 24 2012 04:30 Djzapz wrote: No, I merely said that the argument made sense from a defense standpoint, and that it could lead to the freedom of innocent men. I am not a misogynist and I understand your arguments, I do. I just value the freedom of innocent people. If you value the freedom of innocent people, then why don't you explain to us what evidence you have that a significantly more rape cases convict innocent people than for other cases? If this is truly a problem, then there must be evidence for it. Present it. Because without that evidence, without evidence of innocent people being convicted in rape cases being greater than for other cases, your entire argument doesn't work. On August 24 2012 04:30 Djzapz wrote: I don't generally take offense to what people say on forums, but you people are clearly not trolls and so I actually do kind of care about what you think of me. I am not a misogynist. My arguments were made from a practical standpoint. Trust me -_-. I'm not a bad person. Nobody thinks of themselves as misogynist. OK, maybe a few nutjobs. But do you think Rush Limbaugh, with his slut shaming of women, thinks he's misogynist? Do you think Todd Akin, with his "legitimate rape" comments, thinks he's misogynist? I don't know if you think of yourself as misogynist. And I don't care. What matters to me is that people are held accountable for their words, actions, and expressed beliefs. This video explains what I'm talking about (though with racism rather than sexism). Pay attention to the difference between the "what he said" and "what he is" conversations. | ||
KwarK
United States42569 Posts
On August 24 2012 04:30 Djzapz wrote: No, I merely said that the argument made sense from a defense standpoint, and that it could lead to the freedom of innocent men. I am not a misogynist and I understand your arguments, I do. I just value the freedom of innocent people. I don't generally take offense to what people say on forums, but you people are clearly not trolls and so I actually do kind of care about what you think of me. I am not a misogynist. My arguments were made from a practical standpoint. Trust me -_-. I'm not a bad person. Maybe it's time to take some time out of this topic and think about the exchange here. I know it can be difficult to drop an argument when it feels like everyone is out to get you but you've retrenched your stance enough that it must be pretty fluid by now and some time to think could help you work out what it is you believe about the promiscuity argument and the wider role of clearly spurious arguments within the justice system. Sometimes in life it's not everybody else, sometimes it's you. | ||
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Vega62a
946 Posts
On August 24 2012 04:36 Djzapz wrote: The strong feeling that I have against the imprisonment of innocent people in all cases cannot be called misogyny. I have the same stance regarding murder convictions and essentially all crimes. I've always been that way in every sector. One man's deserved freedom is of high importance to me. The fact that you don't value it as much as I do doesn't make me a misogynist, and I take offense to that accusation. I view women as my equals. So do you advocate allowing false evidence in murder trials as well, then? Or is it only in rape trials? I'll take it on faith that you are not aware of how misogynistic your viewpoint is, but you are basically advocating to allow people to lie in court, and use a woman's sexual history as an indictment of her. That is incredibly misogynistic. Kwark's post explains it better. On August 24 2012 04:37 Djzapz wrote: I think a better middleground can be achieved. Propose it, then. Your current proposal is essentially a deconstruction of our legal system. | ||
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JinDesu
United States3990 Posts
On August 24 2012 04:37 S:klogW wrote: Ok, now that we have sorted out the confusion with Djzapz statements, can we go back to the issue at hand, and address these issues: 1. that "rape culture" is a smokescreen. The act of rape is the thing itself. There is no culture to it because there are no mitigating circumstances to rape. 2. a universal, culturally inoffensice definition of rape, IF that is possible For #2 - it is my belief that a universal definition is impossible without a general unity of the population on this planet. One can see that in the United States, where the different states provide different laws defining rape/sexual assault, and is often defined by the conservativeness/liberalness of the state. | ||
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Crushinator
Netherlands2138 Posts
On August 24 2012 04:37 ComaDose wrote: saying women who are premiscuous should have less chance in a rape case is misogyny While stating it like this clearly is misogyny, I don't think punishing promiscuity in women was really his goal. I think his argument has been deconstructed enough now. | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On August 24 2012 04:37 ComaDose wrote: saying women who are premiscuous should have less chance in a rape case is misogyny That's not what I said, but about the argument you're clumsily referring to, I admitted that it was faulty - but good in the way that it can lead to the freedom of innocent men. There's a good chance that in actuality it has done more harm than good. | ||
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ComaDose
Canada10357 Posts
On August 24 2012 04:40 Djzapz wrote: That's not what I said, but about the argument you're clumsily referring to, I admitted that it was faulty - but good in the way that it can lead to the freedom of innocent men. There's a good chance that in actuality it has done more harm than good. not clumsy just took out your buzz words. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
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GT350
United States270 Posts
TIL: Rape culture. Will research more on it. | ||
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Arkless
Canada1547 Posts
Black and white people, no means no, yes means yes. Even if the yes comes on the second time u asked. Keep in mind, you are not engaging in sex during these times If she says stop during intercourse, then be a man and fucking stop. But if she initially said yea, then the first portion is not rape at all. Once again, period, end of story. | ||
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KwarK
United States42569 Posts
On August 24 2012 04:50 Arkless wrote: Even if she says no at first. But says yes the second time u ask. That is not fuckin rape, period, end of story. There are no grey areas here. Only black and white, and you're a fool to think otherwise. By sayin yes, you had consentual sex. And just because you regret it afte or whatever, doesn't make it rape. Black and white people, no means no, yes means yes. Even if the yes comes on the second time u asked. Keep in mind, you are not engaging in sex during these times If she says stop during intercourse, then be a man and fucking stop. But if she initially said yea, then the first portion is not rape at all. Once again, period, end of story. This assumes that there is no such thing as coercion. Is there such a thing as coercion? | ||
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JinDesu
United States3990 Posts
On August 24 2012 04:51 KwarK wrote: This assumes that there is no such thing as coercion. Is there such a thing as coercion? If we disregard coercion, what he wrote is correct in my book. The action must follow the request. Introducing coercion means the request is not genuine, so it introduces the gray area. My personal belief on consenting/rape: If a girl says no, it means no. If I convince her without use of threats or false promises in any way, that means I'm a baller. If a girl says no, and was touched inappropriately, that is sexual harassment. This also covers verbal abuse. If a girl says no, and had objects inserted into any of her any orifices, that is still sexual assault. If a girl says no, and the assaulter inserts himself into any of her orifices, then it's rape. If a girl in incapable of saying yes due to unconsciousness, it's a no. If a girl is under the influence of chemicals (drugs/alcohol), it's a no, regardless of what she says. This is an overarching application, as people respond differently to chemicals, and it's better safe than sorry. I would not find a difference in punitive measures between sexual assault and rape, but I would still consider them different in that rape can spread diseases that the assaulter may carry, or induce pregnancy. | ||
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Vega62a
946 Posts
On August 24 2012 04:50 Arkless wrote: Even if she says no at first. But says yes the second time u ask. That is not fuckin rape, period, end of story. There are no grey areas here. Only black and white, and you're a fool to think otherwise. By sayin yes, you had consentual sex. And just because you regret it afte or whatever, doesn't make it rape. Black and white people, no means no, yes means yes. Even if the yes comes on the second time u asked. Keep in mind, you are not engaging in sex during these times If she says stop during intercourse, then be a man and fucking stop. But if she initially said yea, then the first portion is not rape at all. Once again, period, end of story. You do understand that people can be coerced into saying yes, and that this is just as much rape as if you had not asked at all, right? | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On August 24 2012 04:51 KwarK wrote: This assumes that there is no such thing as coercion. Is there such a thing as coercion? Come on guys, he clearly is just outlining a general consent model. It's pretty close the Affirmative Consent model for rape, although 'no means no' is superceded by 'not consent means no.' Coercion obviously destroys the idea of consent. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On August 24 2012 04:55 Vega62a wrote: You do understand that people can be coerced into saying yes, and that this is just as much rape as if you had not asked at all, right? And if people say yes the first time it can also be coercion. I don't get why people obsess about "no means no so if you ask a second time it's rape" when it's not relevant to the point. coercion = coercion, consent = consent and rape = rape. There is no magic law with asking one time or two times. | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On August 24 2012 04:37 DoubleReed wrote: Djzapz, Please provide evidence of the apparently pervasive nature of men being falsely imprisoned of rape. Clearly you are of the opinion that this is relatively common, despite all the evidence I have tried to show you to the contrary. Therefore, I must demand that you provide evidence for your claim that there are plenty of men who have been falsely imprisoned on rape charges. Or else I just don't see how this conversation can continue. Just google it dude... Google: Man false accused rape Man falsely imprisoned rape It's not new | ||
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KwarK
United States42569 Posts
On August 24 2012 04:59 Djzapz wrote: Just google it dude... Google: Man false accused rape Man falsely imprisoned rape It's not new You have not provided evidence that it happens to plenty of men, merely that it has happened and been reported on the internet. | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On August 24 2012 05:01 KwarK wrote: You have not provided evidence that it happens to plenty of men, merely that it has happened and been reported on the internet. That's all I've got. I could look for stats but they'd be incomplete for obvious reasons. It's enough to be a concern. Don't just ignore it :/ | ||
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nam nam
Sweden4672 Posts
On August 24 2012 04:59 Djzapz wrote: Just google it dude... Google: Man false accused rape Man falsely imprisoned rape It's not new Which is also true about other crimes. Is rape special? | ||
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