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On August 11 2012 19:46 one-one-one wrote:
The conspiracy theories are always the same.
When will you guys get that protecting society against terrorism and other really bad things while not doing any surveillance or other kinds of intelligence gathering is close to impossible.
Maybe these things are designed to protect against stuff that is very real...
Maybe your fear for mass surveillance of every citizen is unwarranted?
It is always the same arguments: small small steps are being taken towards a system where everyone is being watched.
Implicitly you suggest that there is a hidden agenda with the ultimate purpose of total surveillance.
Do you think it is fair for governments to create extensive, intricate databases of an unimaginable size and then pick and choose who to share that information with, all with the funding of your dollars and no consent given.
I have no problem if this was the CIA/NSA performing the functions that we pay them to do. This is miles beyond that.
Imagine you develop a program, that you store somewhere online assuming it is safe.
Imagine you are known for being amazing and a big corporation has you pegged.
Imagine that without you ever knowing, all the code is copied, and you never hear a god damn thing.
Imagine your life work could be taken from you, in a hundred thousand ways and you never knew it, except when you try to publish, copyright, patent, and you can't.
Fuck terrorists, fuck them all, unfortunately nothing can ever stop them. That is why fake-terrorism is the best way to control a population, and lucky for us, we are the most violent culture in the history of the world, so we are now breeding a spree shooter every couple weeks, and even though copying all internet traffic doesn't help track terrorists it sure does seem to help big corporations who used to have to do actual market research, who now if they are in the 'club' can hire 'global intelligence' agency's for all information they ever need.
That is the problem - PS - I am much more unsafe as an American then before 9/11.
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as long as they can acces your informations and you can't theirs, that is seriously wrong. Whoevers says "Oh idc about that". You should, this can only lead to some sort of tyranny, even if only a tyranny of the biggest corporations killing the small up&coming ones.
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On August 11 2012 20:05 Absentia wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Excerpt from the TV show Boston Legal around 2006. In the extract, the lawyer's assistant has been charged with tax avoidance because she refuses to fund the US government, and some their policies, on ideological grounds. This is his defence of her. The passive reaction of some people in this thread is saddening. It's one thing to believe you're being watched and not feel bothered. To be shown, explicitly, that your freedom is being fundamentally undermined, without any consent whatsoever, and to still retain that passive acceptance? What's wrong with you?
It is fine to believe you're being watched and not feel bothered.
Not fine to have passive acceptance when exactly that is proven.
Oke? No real freedoms are being undermined here.
If anything, these computerized systems are an improvement over the past. The more advanced these system become, the less need of a human operator to actively look through the footage.
Within a few years, you could walk through a busy shopping street with tons of cameras, and there would be fewer eyes on you than today.
We can't expect police enforcement to remain stagnant in such a rapidly changing world with new technologies being created every day. To keep screaming privacy and demanding all camera's to be torn down is little different from the people that were afraid of the first cars.
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life is not a movie. you are not a hero.
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If you are doing nothing wrong then you got nothing to hide. Only evil people would be afraid of surveillance. If you are good you got nothing to hide.
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On August 11 2012 20:22 M4nkind wrote:
If you are doing nothing wrong then you got nothing to hide. Only evil people would be afraid of surveillance. If you are good you got nothing to hide.
someone will make an intelligent response to this but let me just be the first to say you're really stupid
User was warned for this post
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
If you put a weapon in the hands of someone, no matter how well-intentioned and responsible (not sure if that can be applied to the US government in the first place) they may seem, you run the risk of them turning around and using it on you. And make no mistake, this is a very powerful weapon. Sooner or later, they will come up with whatever justifications they need to use the data to do far more than just 'catch the bad guys'. Suppressing political and social movements, oppressing dissidents and political rivals, not to mention the involvement of private corporations in all of this. Do you really think they won't abuse private and sensitive information for their own gain? The very fact that this was all done in total secrecy and without public knowledge/approval, should tell you something.
I hate to use this overused quote, but "Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely".
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On August 11 2012 20:22 M4nkind wrote:
If you are doing nothing wrong then you got nothing to hide. Only evil people would be afraid of surveillance. If you are good you got nothing to hide.
Tell that to Will Smith.
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On August 11 2012 20:22 M4nkind wrote:
If you are doing nothing wrong then you got nothing to hide. Only evil people would be afraid of surveillance. If you are good you got nothing to hide.
Tell that to anyone living in a dictatorship and/or corrupt goverment. Your faulty assumption is that the good ones are always on one of these sides.
Maybe these methods are justified taken everything into account, but the "if you have nothing to hide" argument are one of the poorest there are to justify it. Think a little longer than that please.
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On August 11 2012 20:22 M4nkind wrote:
If you are doing nothing wrong then you got nothing to hide. Only evil people would be afraid of surveillance. If you are good you got nothing to hide.
This is why we hear from this stuff from wiki leaks I guess
Blindly obeying the law, doesn't make you good, just brainless... Would you be proud if u had killed iraqi families 10 years ago ?? Murder is sometime legal, that doesn't make it moral
I'm actually all for transparency, but don't you think it doesn't have any sense that a government that has sooo many secrets asks you to don't have any ??
I'm ok to be wiretapped if I can wiretap the president, army generals, judges, and such... But sadly, I'll go to jail if I try that...
They're hiding stuff. Are they bad evil people like you suggested ??
Or do they want privacy like anyone else, and got it because they deserved it because they are far superior human being as you and me ?
Or are they just profiting from an unfair system ?
Please use more than half your brain before posting
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On August 11 2012 19:21 Warri wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 19:05 K_Dilkington wrote:
Juding from the comments from the Americans in this thread, you deserve everything that is coming for you. Enjoy the inevitable police state that will make sure that you can't even write freely on this forum anymore. Yeah, im surprised, too, at how many people don't see this as bad. I thought TL had a good ratio of people who would understand the consequences this first steps imply.
I think there are. I think some people might even understand the consequences better than you do.
1984 police state? What's the point? From the government's perspective, it's a horrible decision. As soon as people feel threatened, they will react to the perceived threat. They'll start petitions, demonstrations, protests. People are complaining already, with this leak. If the government starts sending agents around just because of a post you made on a forum, you can bet people will feel scared and start objecting. Why would the government spend tons of money just to stir up unrest? They don't get anything out of terrorizing anarchist teenagers.
Every time they follow up a lead, they're encouraging people to hide their tracks better. If everyone knows that text messages (for example) are being monitored, then the people who are actually planning attacks will stop using text messages. The government went to all the trouble of monitoring these sources, so they're not going to shoot themselves in the foot by showing up at your house just because you texted "bomb" to someone. That's pretty much announcing "hey terrorists, we're watching all the texts being sent, so if you're planning an attack, use something else."
And with all the information going around, it should hardly be a surprise that someone decided to condense it all into a database. It's pretty much a natural consequence of our level of technology. You can already dig up an absurd amount of personal information as a private citizen if you know where to look, so it should hardly come as a surprise that the government can do it even better. It's not just the government, either - they just have the most resources so they're usually the first adopters. Once we have effective facial recognition and enough processing power, you can bet that as soon as you step in a Wal-mart the cameras will have recognized you and your purchasing behaviour is being pulled up in a database somewhere. They'll track your movements through the store, which displays you pause it, what you end up buying... all for market research, of course. If you place something back on the wrong shelf, they're not going to call you out on it - they don't want to freak you out. But they know you did it.
Don't like the idea? It comes with the technology, so it's something you'll have to live with. We're already getting used to losing our privacy. Eventually, this sort of thing will seem as normal as seeing your name and address in the phone book.
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On August 11 2012 20:09 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 19:46 one-one-one wrote:
The conspiracy theories are always the same.
When will you guys get that protecting society against terrorism and other really bad things while not doing any surveillance or other kinds of intelligence gathering is close to impossible.
Maybe these things are designed to protect against stuff that is very real...
Maybe your fear for mass surveillance of every citizen is unwarranted?
It is always the same arguments: small small steps are being taken towards a system where everyone is being watched.
Implicitly you suggest that there is a hidden agenda with the ultimate purpose of total surveillance.
Do you think it is fair for governments to create extensive, intricate databases of an unimaginable size and then pick and choose who to share that information with, all with the funding of your dollars and no consent given. I have no problem if this was the CIA/NSA performing the functions that we pay them to do. This is miles beyond that. Imagine you develop a program, that you store somewhere online assuming it is safe. Imagine you are known for being amazing and a big corporation has you pegged. Imagine that without you ever knowing, all the code is copied, and you never hear a god damn thing. Imagine your life work could be taken from you, in a hundred thousand ways and you never knew it, except when you try to publish, copyright, patent, and you can't. Fuck terrorists, fuck them all, unfortunately nothing can ever stop them. That is why fake-terrorism is the best way to control a population, and lucky for us, we are the most violent culture in the history of the world, so we are now breeding a spree shooter every couple weeks, and even though copying all internet traffic doesn't help track terrorists it sure does seem to help big corporations who used to have to do actual market research, who now if they are in the 'club' can hire 'global intelligence' agency's for all information they ever need. That is the problem - PS - I am much more unsafe as an American then before 9/11.
I would say that there are way more spree shootings in many other countries.
Sure, USA is a violent place , but there are many countries that are worse by far.
Is it a problem that you can't blindly trust Microsoft , Google and the likes with your data?
Those companies have agreements with many governments about handing over user data.
So don't put your life work there then.
Isn't it ironic that the same government you accuse of having hidden agendas provide very secure open protocols for encrypting and transferring your data ?
There is no secret agenda! Get that straight.
Edit: Everyone read Starfries post just above this one. Then read it again. Best post in this thread by far.
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On August 11 2012 09:06 Liquid`Drone wrote:
If true, how is this not big news? Global surveillance with facial recognition? You're fine with someone knowing where you are and what you're doing at every moment? There's absolutely no way any possible terrorist or other threat justifies this gross invasion of privacy, and that's that.
I don't have time to really investigate this now but based on OP, this is terrible, and the most important leak from wikileaks so far.
Especially because the invade privacy like this, but never catches the real enemies doing so, lol. Like London, most survailanced city in the world, and nothing has changed, except their pockets have gotten lighter
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its horrible that stuff like that is actually legal. just another big step towards a grim future.
Is it a problem that you can't blindly trust Microsoft , Google and the likes with your data?
Those companies have agreements with many governments about handing over user data.
So don't put your life work there then.
its a VERY different thing when i give them my data compared to an all observing eye i cant avoid.
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On August 11 2012 20:22 M4nkind wrote:
If you are doing nothing wrong then you got nothing to hide. Only evil people would be afraid of surveillance. If you are good you got nothing to hide.
What happens when the one that survielle you are evil and the evil ones who aren't in power are intelligent enough to bypass surveillence? rofl.
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I was too late for the party. 
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On August 11 2012 20:22 M4nkind wrote:
If you are doing nothing wrong then you got nothing to hide. Only evil people would be afraid of surveillance. If you are good you got nothing to hide.
How many years have you gone to school? Can you honestly tell me that not a single time have you faked being ill and went somewhere else with your friends? Ooops they caught that on camera, sucks to be you.
Have you ever went to a swimming pool/golf course at night and jumped over the fence? Thats on camera!
Have you ever disobeyed a stop sign on a very open intersection because you saw that there is noone coming? Thats on camera (theyve probably got your license plate or can see your face through the windshield anyway).
Have you ever let your dog shit on a street and had no bag to clean it up so you ignored it and went on? Thats on camera too.
Youve got nothing to hide? Youre so dead wrong.
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I don't know why you people are making a big deal out of this. None of you have the temerity to do anything about it: to march to the White House, to show the government you aren't sheep. The government knows what type of society they have cultivated-- one that would rather express their discontent with injustices through social outlets rather than making a stand.
The US government knows there is no risk of another French Revolution, because people are too content. They have their Ipods, cheeseburgers, and their meaningless education (anyone and everyone can get a student loan). They watch their tv shows. They fuck and sleep. They bitch every now and then and the government laughs at them and throws them a bone.
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On August 11 2012 09:42 emythrel wrote:
Please get it through your heads, no one cares what you do unless you are doing something wrong. If cameras and datamining help deter, prevent or catch people breaking laws then they are doing their job and those who stay within the law have nothing to fear. The old "slippery slope" argument is beyond stupid, the government can't arrest you for staying within the law and if they did, YOU HAVE THE VIDEO EVIDENCE TO PROVE YOURSELF INNOCENT since ofc they have everything on CCTV and backed up on fortified HDDs......
The problem comes when they start changing laws (which they are, SOPA, PIPA, ACTA etc...) to give them more reasons to prosecute / imprison. But then again if this is done in a proper and regulated manner where the risk of abuse of the technology is reduced to non-existent it would only benefit our security.
The scary thing is that this is done behind closed doors and they are very much wanting it to be completely unknown to anyone not working with it. That is what is bad here, not what it is but how it is done.
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On August 11 2012 19:46 one-one-one wrote:
The conspiracy theories are always the same.
When will you guys get that protecting society against terrorism and other really bad things while not doing any surveillance or other kinds of intelligence gathering is close to impossible.
Maybe these things are designed to protect against stuff that is very real...
Maybe your fear for mass surveillance of every citizen is unwarranted?
It is always the same arguments: small small steps are being taken towards a system where everyone is being watched.
Implicitly you suggest that there is a hidden agenda with the ultimate purpose of total surveillance.
Nevermind, online chat seems to be pointless and people keep the biases without reason.
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EPT
