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President Obama Re-Elected - Page 916

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Hey guys! We'll be closing this thread shortly, but we will make an American politics megathread where we can continue the discussions in here.

The new thread can be found here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383301
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-20 04:18:02
October 20 2012 04:10 GMT
#18301
And the fact remains that many of the jobs that do exist are not in fact worth doing

edit: can we all take a moment to ponder what exactly is the difference between the two phrases "make work" and "create job"
shikata ga nai
Stratos_speAr
Profile Joined May 2009
United States6959 Posts
October 20 2012 04:18 GMT
#18302
On October 20 2012 11:10 BluePanther wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2012 11:08 oneofthem wrote:
that's not the argument. the argument is that if everyone else is doing it, smart, well run systems at that, then it's probably got some merit to it.

especially you've got a well run, nationalized healthcare system right in your backyard in the VA system, while the private system is bloated as fuck.



That was exactly what your argument was. You claimed it was the right thing to do because "everyone else was."


Do you know what the strawman fallacy is? Just because one random guy gives the worst possible form of a particular argument doesn't mean you should address that particular form. In fact, in any intellectual realm, it's wise to try to argue against the best possible stance of your opponent because doing otherwise makes you look like a tool.

At what cost- at the cost of higher taxes thus less economic freedom, for each indivisual.
how about you pay for your own HC cost via an insurance system if you so choose.
Oh wait that's what we used to have, and ya i'm pretty healthy- cna't even remember the last time I got sick. My last injury was self inflicted (broken arm). It has healed excelently, to the point I couldn't even tell which arm I broke mere months after it happened. Adding to my tax burden lessens my chances of moving up. More money I have, the more I can invest into my future- whehter it be education, health, finance, etc. Telling me how to budget is beyond inexcuseable.


You can hypothesize on this all you want. Too bad the facts should that socioeconomic mobility is significantly lower in the U.S. compared to several nations that have national healthcare systems, like every Scandinavian country.
A sound mind in a sound body, is a short, but full description of a happy state in this World: he that has these two, has little more to wish for; and he that wants either of them, will be little the better for anything else.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
October 20 2012 04:22 GMT
#18303
On October 20 2012 12:28 TeCh)PsylO wrote:
The arguments that the marginal tax rates are preventing small business growth are equally as wrongheaded. The businesses at hand are pass through entities. Corporations are not pass through entities, meaning the corporation is taxed, and then the shareholders are taxed, along with the employees. Essentially the revenue is taxed twice. With a pass through entity, the businesses sales are not taxed at the marginal rate. The profits are taxed at the marginal rate as the income of the owners. There are two components to this; 1) large businesses that are not incorporated have the advantage of being taxed once (although run higher liability), and 2) because the profits are taxed, a growing business that is looking to expand and hire new employees will not see a tax increase on those expenditures. In other words, there is no reason to not expand as a small business. The marginal profits will be taxed at a higher rate, but there will always be increased profits. Marginal higher taxes will never lower income. Therefore, the incentive to expand and hire more workers will always be there. The fact that the Romney/Ryan ticket is making this argument goes to show their lack of understanding.

Higher marginal tax rates do create a disincentive for businesses to expand and invest. Businesses do not expand and invest based upon whether or not the proposed expansion will simply increase expected profits or not. They go ahead with the project if it is expected to increase profits beyond a given threshold (opportunity cost).

For example, an owner of a chain of coffee shops may decide to open another store if it is expected to increase profits by $30K / year. However, if taxes are raised the new coffee shop may only generate $25K / year in income and so the owner may decide not to open the store.

The reason why the owner may forgo the added $25K of income is because getting that income is not free. The owner will have to make a large investment opening the new store and the profits will need to be sufficient to pay him back, over time and with the risk that the coffee shop will not generate the expected income or that it will fail entirely.
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
October 20 2012 04:25 GMT
#18304
On October 20 2012 13:22 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
For example, an owner of a chain of coffee shops may decide to open another store if it is expected to increase profits by $30K / year. However, if taxes are raised the new coffee shop may only generate $25K / year in income and so the owner may decide not to open the store.


So? Is there a shortage of coffee shops?
shikata ga nai
Romantic
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1844 Posts
October 20 2012 04:32 GMT
#18305
On October 20 2012 13:25 sam!zdat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2012 13:22 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
For example, an owner of a chain of coffee shops may decide to open another store if it is expected to increase profits by $30K / year. However, if taxes are raised the new coffee shop may only generate $25K / year in income and so the owner may decide not to open the store.


So? Is there a shortage of coffee shops?


Really. Really? Do you understand the concept of a hypothetical example?

Before I even explain that if the business is financially viable then obviously it fulfills demand we need to clear up whether you understand he is giving that situation as an example.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
October 20 2012 04:48 GMT
#18306
On October 20 2012 13:25 sam!zdat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2012 13:22 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
For example, an owner of a chain of coffee shops may decide to open another store if it is expected to increase profits by $30K / year. However, if taxes are raised the new coffee shop may only generate $25K / year in income and so the owner may decide not to open the store.


So? Is there a shortage of coffee shops?


Hopefully not, coffee is pretty important to those of us with massive caffeine addictions
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-20 05:13:27
October 20 2012 04:51 GMT
#18307
marginal taxes severely affect industries with low margins facing price competition. it doesn't dent the guys with high pricing power or really high margin, as in a rapidly growing market or IP monopolies, or a way of screwing your clients who don't know what they are buying.

as for whether the tax will be passed on to consumers, i dunno. it'll ahve to depend on the level of competition the firm is facing. but if you are in the business of say, selling water, then that tax will be directly passed on because of the price inelasticity of demand.

okay, i realize i've forgotten a lot of the micro. shucks
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Probe1
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States17920 Posts
October 20 2012 05:05 GMT
#18308
(Giant response to me)
On October 20 2012 07:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On October 20 2012 06:48 Probe1 wrote:
Your posts are bias'd to your own side sc2superfan101 . I don't know how you can't see that interfering with how others receive and evaluate your opinions. Let's take an example of myself. If I were to say (all of this is true):

"I am a registered independent. I always have been and I always will be. However, the day I vote for a Republican candidate in these days of neocon bullshit is the day I want to sign over my freedom and inalienable rights."

Now how do you think people are going to view that? That's what I think, it's true. But I don't present myself that way. Why? Because.. well no shit on this one but I have respect for others opinions. By that I mean I believe I am not always right and I should listen to dissent. Having an obnoxiously staunch and 'partisan' opinion is like sticking your fingers in your ears when someone says they like butter pecan ice cream and screaming CHOCOLATE! until they leave.

Have some common sense, I've got plenty laying around you can borrow.

everyone's posts are "bias'd to [their] own side". there is no one on Earth that believes that their opinions and beliefs are wrong, so everyone is going to assume that they are right. we can base this assumption on evidence, but even then, the bias still exists, it is just a supported bias.

how others view my positions is largely up to them. I may bear some responsibility, namely to couch my positions in truthful, ethical, and (relatively) friendly ways. however, once achieved, all the responsibility for the reaction of the reader/listener belongs squarely and wholly to that aforementioned spectator. I cannot hope to change the way they think by myself, with no effort or desire on their part. and I cannot hope to convince them of the validity of my own positions if they will not be convinced. (note that I am not condemning anyone or any action. I, myself, do not have any desire to change my basic positions, will put no effort into changing them, and will most likely not be convinced).

it is the height of dishonesty for someone to say: "I am not partisan. So my opinions are valid. You are partisan though, so your positions are invalid." as such, I have no fear or problem with admitting my own partisanship, and admitting that this partisanship does, to some degree, color the glass through which I view the world. sure, it makes me easy prey to someone who wants to be dishonest, but anyone who has an opinion, is partisan. anyone who claims different, is being untruthful. those who are truthful will admit their own partisanship and bias, and won't try to hide it from the people they are arguing with or trying to convince.

now, it seems your main argument (in spirit) is not that you are better for hiding your obvious bias, but that in some weird way, that because you hide it, it doesn't exist. to this, I can only say that a game of peek-a-boo doesn't usually involve someone actually disappearing and reappearing. likewise, hiding this opinion:

the day I vote for a Republican candidate in these days of neocon bullshit is the day I want to sign over my freedom and inalienable rights.

doesn't change the fact that the opinion exists. hiding it doesn't give you some extra ability to gauge and respond to dissent or criticism of your political position. and it doesn't make it have any less of an effect upon your voting, thinking, and perceiving.

now, we can argue all day about who has the more open mind, or whether having an open mind to nonsense is desirable, much less rational; but the main argument we should be having is whether a partisan who is convinced of the superiority of his own arguments, not obstinately but with conviction, is capable of engaging in rational discourse. I would suggest that one who holds no firm positions can have no firm arguments. the key, it would seem, (to borrow a quote from W.F. Buckley Jr.) is "to be flexible without resembling Silly-Putty: to be principled without being arch"

obviously, you can make some argument that you are firmly in the middle ground. and I, without being able to preview the inner depths of your mind and soul, am woefully incapable of challenging that argument with anything other than your own admission of bias. you can make the argument that I am so stubborn that I resemble the childish figure in your analogy, and I, without being able to open to you the depths of my mind, am incapable of challenging that argument except with that fact that I ignore no (legitimately made) point that I see, but address any and all with equal gusto.

let those who watch be the judges, but realize that judgement should most probably be reserved for those with no, how shall I say, dog in the hunt.

Again you illustrate your immaturity.
우정호 KT_VIOLET 1988 - 2012 While we are postponing, life speeds by
nevermindthebollocks
Profile Joined October 2012
United States116 Posts
October 20 2012 05:15 GMT
#18309
today is so bad. mc is 0-3 in osl and there are a lot of polls with romney ahead.
someone post some good news
Anarchy!
waxypants
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States479 Posts
October 20 2012 05:32 GMT
#18310
On October 20 2012 10:16 SayGen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2012 10:05 Stratos_speAr wrote:
On October 20 2012 10:01 jdseemoreglass wrote:
On October 20 2012 09:59 Stratos_speAr wrote:
On October 20 2012 09:43 SayGen wrote:
On October 20 2012 09:33 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
On October 20 2012 08:51 SayGen wrote:
Loving how the 'Binder full of women' is backfiring on the Obama camp.
Almost funny how the more they say it the more women voters switch to Romney after they look into what he said and realize he has done more for equality than Obama has.

Best part is, Liberals act like they are the defenders of minorities when facts are Republicans are the ones who have done the most good in our country--after all which party freed the slaves.

Want equality, vote Romney
Want more sexism and social injustice, vote Obama



SayGen United States. October 20 2012 09:30. Posts 917 PM Profile Quote #
On October 20 2012 09:28 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
Republicans freed the slaves! It says so on wiki!


Might want to go to an African American studies class.



These posts were literally 3 minutes apart dude.

EDIT: Sorry, 35 minutes. Of course, this is from the guy who not too long ago was raging for pages and pages about Obama care costing him $700/month, not realizing he had misread 'year' as 'month'....



No I said it was a typo- go back and reread before posting that libel.
I am highly upset about Obamacare. It's anti American to be taxed on the condition of breathing.
Never ever ever done before in American history, truly it can now be said that there are 2 inevitable things in life- death and taxes


It's kind of sad hat people will put ideology before the basic advancement of civilization. Obamacare is pathetic compared to truly nationalized systems like the ones seen in basically every single developed country besides our own, but at least it's a step forward.

There are a lot of valid arguments in favor of socialized health care. Saying "everyone else is doing it" is not one of them. Nor is simply calling it "the basic advancement of civilization."


Offering free/affordable healthcare to every citizen of your country is advancing civilization. I don't know what to say to you if you can't understand this. As to the point that "everyone else is doing it", that's just a strawman; the point is that numerous other countries are doing it, and not only is it affordable, but the quality of healthcare in these countries is better.


At what cost- at the cost of higher taxes thus less economic freedom, for each indivisual.
how about you pay for your own HC cost via an insurance system if you so choose.
Oh wait that's what we used to have, and ya i'm pretty healthy- cna't even remember the last time I got sick. My last injury was self inflicted (broken arm). It has healed excelently, to the point I couldn't even tell which arm I broke mere months after it happened. Adding to my tax burden lessens my chances of moving up. More money I have, the more I can invest into my future- whehter it be education, health, finance, etc. Telling me how to budget is beyond inexcuseable.


What the hell are you even trying to say? Because you have had no need for healthcare, that nobody really needs it?
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
October 20 2012 05:33 GMT
#18311
On October 20 2012 13:32 Romantic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2012 13:25 sam!zdat wrote:
On October 20 2012 13:22 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
For example, an owner of a chain of coffee shops may decide to open another store if it is expected to increase profits by $30K / year. However, if taxes are raised the new coffee shop may only generate $25K / year in income and so the owner may decide not to open the store.


So? Is there a shortage of coffee shops?


Before I even explain that if the business is financially viable then obviously it fulfills demand we need to clear up whether you understand he is giving that situation as an example.


A lot of demand is stupid demand.
shikata ga nai
BluePanther
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2776 Posts
October 20 2012 06:46 GMT
#18312
On October 20 2012 14:33 sam!zdat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2012 13:32 Romantic wrote:
On October 20 2012 13:25 sam!zdat wrote:
On October 20 2012 13:22 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
For example, an owner of a chain of coffee shops may decide to open another store if it is expected to increase profits by $30K / year. However, if taxes are raised the new coffee shop may only generate $25K / year in income and so the owner may decide not to open the store.


So? Is there a shortage of coffee shops?


Before I even explain that if the business is financially viable then obviously it fulfills demand we need to clear up whether you understand he is giving that situation as an example.


A lot of demand is stupid demand.


"stupid" is subjective.
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-20 06:52:10
October 20 2012 06:51 GMT
#18313
On October 20 2012 15:46 BluePanther wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2012 14:33 sam!zdat wrote:
On October 20 2012 13:32 Romantic wrote:
On October 20 2012 13:25 sam!zdat wrote:
On October 20 2012 13:22 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
For example, an owner of a chain of coffee shops may decide to open another store if it is expected to increase profits by $30K / year. However, if taxes are raised the new coffee shop may only generate $25K / year in income and so the owner may decide not to open the store.


So? Is there a shortage of coffee shops?


Before I even explain that if the business is financially viable then obviously it fulfills demand we need to clear up whether you understand he is giving that situation as an example.


A lot of demand is stupid demand.


"stupid" is subjective.


What do you mean by "subjective"

edit: seriously.
shikata ga nai
ElvisWayCool
Profile Joined March 2010
United States437 Posts
October 20 2012 06:53 GMT
#18314
On October 20 2012 15:51 sam!zdat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2012 15:46 BluePanther wrote:
On October 20 2012 14:33 sam!zdat wrote:
On October 20 2012 13:32 Romantic wrote:
On October 20 2012 13:25 sam!zdat wrote:
On October 20 2012 13:22 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
For example, an owner of a chain of coffee shops may decide to open another store if it is expected to increase profits by $30K / year. However, if taxes are raised the new coffee shop may only generate $25K / year in income and so the owner may decide not to open the store.


So? Is there a shortage of coffee shops?


Before I even explain that if the business is financially viable then obviously it fulfills demand we need to clear up whether you understand he is giving that situation as an example.


A lot of demand is stupid demand.


"stupid" is subjective.


What do you mean by "subjective"

edit: seriously.


It depends on the situation and the people involved. It's an opinion. What is stupid to you, may not be stupid to someone else, and visa versa.
kmillz
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1548 Posts
October 20 2012 06:57 GMT
#18315
On October 20 2012 14:15 nevermindthebollocks wrote:
today is so bad. mc is 0-3 in osl and there are a lot of polls with romney ahead.
someone post some good news

Romney being ahead IS good news
Stratos_speAr
Profile Joined May 2009
United States6959 Posts
October 20 2012 07:04 GMT
#18316
On October 20 2012 14:15 nevermindthebollocks wrote:
today is so bad. mc is 0-3 in osl and there are a lot of polls with romney ahead.
someone post some good news


"A lot"? Last I checked, there were 1-2 state tracking polls and the Gallup National poll. Every other one has Obama ahead.
A sound mind in a sound body, is a short, but full description of a happy state in this World: he that has these two, has little more to wish for; and he that wants either of them, will be little the better for anything else.
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
October 20 2012 07:04 GMT
#18317
On October 20 2012 15:53 ElvisWayCool wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2012 15:51 sam!zdat wrote:
On October 20 2012 15:46 BluePanther wrote:
On October 20 2012 14:33 sam!zdat wrote:
On October 20 2012 13:32 Romantic wrote:
On October 20 2012 13:25 sam!zdat wrote:
On October 20 2012 13:22 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
For example, an owner of a chain of coffee shops may decide to open another store if it is expected to increase profits by $30K / year. However, if taxes are raised the new coffee shop may only generate $25K / year in income and so the owner may decide not to open the store.


So? Is there a shortage of coffee shops?


Before I even explain that if the business is financially viable then obviously it fulfills demand we need to clear up whether you understand he is giving that situation as an example.


A lot of demand is stupid demand.


"stupid" is subjective.


What do you mean by "subjective"

edit: seriously.


It depends on the situation and the people involved. It's an opinion. What is stupid to you, may not be stupid to someone else, and visa versa.


so you believe all normative statements are invalid by definition
shikata ga nai
BluePanther
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2776 Posts
October 20 2012 07:13 GMT
#18318
On October 20 2012 16:04 sam!zdat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2012 15:53 ElvisWayCool wrote:
On October 20 2012 15:51 sam!zdat wrote:
On October 20 2012 15:46 BluePanther wrote:
On October 20 2012 14:33 sam!zdat wrote:
On October 20 2012 13:32 Romantic wrote:
On October 20 2012 13:25 sam!zdat wrote:
On October 20 2012 13:22 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
For example, an owner of a chain of coffee shops may decide to open another store if it is expected to increase profits by $30K / year. However, if taxes are raised the new coffee shop may only generate $25K / year in income and so the owner may decide not to open the store.


So? Is there a shortage of coffee shops?


Before I even explain that if the business is financially viable then obviously it fulfills demand we need to clear up whether you understand he is giving that situation as an example.


A lot of demand is stupid demand.


"stupid" is subjective.


What do you mean by "subjective"

edit: seriously.


It depends on the situation and the people involved. It's an opinion. What is stupid to you, may not be stupid to someone else, and visa versa.


so you believe all normative statements are invalid by definition


that one was.
TheFrankOne
Profile Joined December 2010
United States667 Posts
October 20 2012 07:13 GMT
#18319
On October 20 2012 13:18 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2012 11:10 BluePanther wrote:
On October 20 2012 11:08 oneofthem wrote:
that's not the argument. the argument is that if everyone else is doing it, smart, well run systems at that, then it's probably got some merit to it.

especially you've got a well run, nationalized healthcare system right in your backyard in the VA system, while the private system is bloated as fuck.



That was exactly what your argument was. You claimed it was the right thing to do because "everyone else was."


Do you know what the strawman fallacy is? Just because one random guy gives the worst possible form of a particular argument doesn't mean you should address that particular form. In fact, in any intellectual realm, it's wise to try to argue against the best possible stance of your opponent because doing otherwise makes you look like a tool.

Show nested quote +
At what cost- at the cost of higher taxes thus less economic freedom, for each indivisual.
how about you pay for your own HC cost via an insurance system if you so choose.
Oh wait that's what we used to have, and ya i'm pretty healthy- cna't even remember the last time I got sick. My last injury was self inflicted (broken arm). It has healed excelently, to the point I couldn't even tell which arm I broke mere months after it happened. Adding to my tax burden lessens my chances of moving up. More money I have, the more I can invest into my future- whehter it be education, health, finance, etc. Telling me how to budget is beyond inexcuseable.


You can hypothesize on this all you want. Too bad the facts should that socioeconomic mobility is significantly lower in the U.S. compared to several nations that have national healthcare systems, like every Scandinavian country.


I love how the post starts all high and mighty calling out a fallacy and then ends with a causation-correlation fallacy putting socioeconomic mobility implicitly on nationalized healthcare's shoulders.

Good job man.
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-20 07:19:29
October 20 2012 07:14 GMT
#18320
On October 20 2012 16:13 BluePanther wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2012 16:04 sam!zdat wrote:
On October 20 2012 15:53 ElvisWayCool wrote:
On October 20 2012 15:51 sam!zdat wrote:
On October 20 2012 15:46 BluePanther wrote:
On October 20 2012 14:33 sam!zdat wrote:
On October 20 2012 13:32 Romantic wrote:
On October 20 2012 13:25 sam!zdat wrote:
On October 20 2012 13:22 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
For example, an owner of a chain of coffee shops may decide to open another store if it is expected to increase profits by $30K / year. However, if taxes are raised the new coffee shop may only generate $25K / year in income and so the owner may decide not to open the store.


So? Is there a shortage of coffee shops?


Before I even explain that if the business is financially viable then obviously it fulfills demand we need to clear up whether you understand he is giving that situation as an example.


A lot of demand is stupid demand.


"stupid" is subjective.


What do you mean by "subjective"

edit: seriously.


It depends on the situation and the people involved. It's an opinion. What is stupid to you, may not be stupid to someone else, and visa versa.


so you believe all normative statements are invalid by definition


that one was.


It was invalid by definition? or invalid? You believe that all demand is equally valid? That sometimes, or perhaps even often, we do not do incredibly stupid things with our wealth?

edit: still, please tell me what you mean by "subjective." What is the status of subjective claims? What is the relationship between separate subjectivities?

edit: another way to ask the question. you say something is "subjective." ok. so what? What does that entail? What should I conclude about some claim based on your assertion that it is subjective?
shikata ga nai
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