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On October 19 2012 12:28 TheFrankOne wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 12:20 jdseemoreglass wrote: There is a difference between pushing through a recession and fostering excessive government induced artificial growth, which establishes a series of bubbles, dot com bubble, financial bubble, housing bubble... When you have artificial growth, a period of flat or dipping GDP growth is not only inevitable, it is necessary. There is a fine line between recession stimulus and bubble creation, and we leap over it every single time. Can you expand on this a bit? Give me some sources to back up your gov spending caused these bubbles claim?
he thinks the market is magic by itself and everything bad is because of the government. If something is wrong, the government caused it, qed
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
That darned government. Them Scandinavians are so unfortunate they have such big government.
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On October 19 2012 12:20 jdseemoreglass wrote: There is a difference between pushing through a recession and fostering excessive government induced artificial growth, which establishes a series of bubbles, dot com bubble, financial bubble, housing bubble... When you have artificial growth, a period of flat or dipping GDP growth is not only inevitable, it is necessary. There is a fine line between recession stimulus and bubble creation, and we leap over it every single time. Simply calling every major economic hardship of the past decade or so a "bubble" doesn't automatically mean they each share enough in common to warrant your very surface level indictment of the government as the primary mover of economic hardship. And the only way this viewpoint remains consistent when taking into account the gross malicious behavior of major financial firms requires that one effectively admit defeat in the name of criminal behavior playing under the guise of "free trade". Have some kinds of government involvement resulted in efficiencies? Sure. Let's not pretend we can stop there and point the finger so singularly.
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On October 19 2012 06:43 DoubleReed wrote:Why are people defending the obstructionism??? Congress has like a 10% approval rating. Are you seriously part of that small percentage??? Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 06:37 Kimaker wrote: As far as filibustering is concerned, it makes sense, given the ideological stand points of the two parties, that Republicans would use it more often. They are the more Conservative party, the Democrats are more Progressive, so of course Republicans are going to attempts to maintain status quo a disproportionate amount.
Don't see how that's intrinsically bad if you strip away any feelings you have over the actual policies.
One ideology is activist, the other is reactionary to activism. ???? Democrats have filibustered Republicans. It's not like filibustering is what only one party does. Otherwise there would be a push to end the filibuster once and for all. What we're discussing is how this particular congress is filibustering like there's no tomorrow. It's about scale. I never said that. I simply said that based on their ideological basis' it makes sense that Republicans would filibuster more often, not that Democrats never filibuster.
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On October 19 2012 12:28 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 12:28 TheFrankOne wrote:On October 19 2012 12:20 jdseemoreglass wrote: There is a difference between pushing through a recession and fostering excessive government induced artificial growth, which establishes a series of bubbles, dot com bubble, financial bubble, housing bubble... When you have artificial growth, a period of flat or dipping GDP growth is not only inevitable, it is necessary. There is a fine line between recession stimulus and bubble creation, and we leap over it every single time. Can you expand on this a bit? Give me some sources to back up your gov spending caused these bubbles claim? he thinks the market is magic by itself and everything bad is because of the government. If something is wrong, the government caused it, qed
Ah yes, and when the government cuts spending and taxes the confidence fairies will lift the economy up into a booming Reagan-style recovery..
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On October 19 2012 12:28 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 12:28 TheFrankOne wrote:On October 19 2012 12:20 jdseemoreglass wrote: There is a difference between pushing through a recession and fostering excessive government induced artificial growth, which establishes a series of bubbles, dot com bubble, financial bubble, housing bubble... When you have artificial growth, a period of flat or dipping GDP growth is not only inevitable, it is necessary. There is a fine line between recession stimulus and bubble creation, and we leap over it every single time. Can you expand on this a bit? Give me some sources to back up your gov spending caused these bubbles claim? he thinks the market is magic by itself and everything bad is because of the government. If something is wrong, the government caused it, qed Standard straw man. I challenge a single person in this thread to deny that the federal reserve's excessive credit policies following the 2001 recession directly influenced the housing bubble. It is the consensus among economists of any stripe. And the liberals favorite pseudo-economist, Paul Krugman, was outright advocating it in 2002.
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On October 19 2012 12:37 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 12:28 sam!zdat wrote:On October 19 2012 12:28 TheFrankOne wrote:On October 19 2012 12:20 jdseemoreglass wrote: There is a difference between pushing through a recession and fostering excessive government induced artificial growth, which establishes a series of bubbles, dot com bubble, financial bubble, housing bubble... When you have artificial growth, a period of flat or dipping GDP growth is not only inevitable, it is necessary. There is a fine line between recession stimulus and bubble creation, and we leap over it every single time. Can you expand on this a bit? Give me some sources to back up your gov spending caused these bubbles claim? he thinks the market is magic by itself and everything bad is because of the government. If something is wrong, the government caused it, qed Standard straw man.
Yes but JD you do actually think that.
not a keynesian so I have no bone in this fight
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On October 19 2012 12:37 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 12:28 sam!zdat wrote:On October 19 2012 12:28 TheFrankOne wrote:On October 19 2012 12:20 jdseemoreglass wrote: There is a difference between pushing through a recession and fostering excessive government induced artificial growth, which establishes a series of bubbles, dot com bubble, financial bubble, housing bubble... When you have artificial growth, a period of flat or dipping GDP growth is not only inevitable, it is necessary. There is a fine line between recession stimulus and bubble creation, and we leap over it every single time. Can you expand on this a bit? Give me some sources to back up your gov spending caused these bubbles claim? he thinks the market is magic by itself and everything bad is because of the government. If something is wrong, the government caused it, qed Standard straw man. I challenge a single person in this thread to deny that the federal reserve's excessive credit policies following the 2001 recession directly influenced the housing bubble. It is the consensus among economists of any stripe. And the liberals favorite pseudo-economist, Paul Krugman, was outright advocating it in 2002. + Show Spoiler + Standard total disregard for context in the name of a clever meme or talking point. For someone who likes to act so "above it all" when it comes to partisan politics, you sure seem like a hack.
So did I call for a bubble? The quote comes from this 2002 piece, in which I was pessimistic about the Fed’s ability to generate a sustained economy. If you read it in context, you’ll see that I wasn’t calling for a bubble — I was talking about the limits to the Fed’s powers, saying that the only way Greenspan could achieve recovery would be if he were able to create a new bubble, which is NOT the same thing as saying that this was a good idea. Of course, I know that this explanation won’t keep the haters from pulling up the same quote out of context, over and over.
But did I call for low interest rates? Yes. In my view, that’s not what the Fed did wrong. We needed better regulation to curb the bubble — not a policy that sacrificed output and employment in order to limit irrational exuberance. You can disagree if you like, but that doesn’t make me someone who deliberately sought a bubble.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
A libertarian calling a Nobel Laureate a pseudo-economist...
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So he didn't call for a bubble but he says the only way the fed could achieve recovery is to create a bubble. And that context is supposed to refute my point how? We can't gauge his comments against the backdrop of his imagined ideal utopia.
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On October 19 2012 12:44 Souma wrote:A libertarian calling a Nobel Laureate a pseudo-economist...  Anyone who puts partisan ideology above economics is a pseudo-economist. That goes for Keynesians, Austrians, Monetarists, or anyone else. Also, you act like the Nobel means anything anymore... -_-
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On October 19 2012 12:47 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 12:44 Souma wrote:A libertarian calling a Nobel Laureate a pseudo-economist...  Anyone who puts partisan ideology above economics is a pseudo-economist. That goes for Keynesians, Austrians, Monetarists, or anyone else. Also, you act like the Nobel means anything anymore... -_-
Krugman is an unabashed liberal but he does not pull economics out of his ass.
Yeah, right.. The Nobel doesn't mean anything, government is inherently evil, the free market will solve all our problems, Romney = Clinton...
Libertarians are amazing people.
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On October 19 2012 12:44 jdseemoreglass wrote: So he didn't call for a bubble but he says the only way the fed could achieve recovery is to create a bubble. And that context is supposed to refute my point how? We can't gauge his comments against the backdrop of his imagined ideal utopia. You are right, we cannot effectively gauge what he said against anything imaginary. What we can do, however, is gauge that little quote you posted against the backdrop of Krugman's actual words. Let's try it! Will the rescuers arrive in the nick of time? Not necessarily. This movie may not be "55 Days at Peking" after all. It may be "A Bridge Too Far."
A few months ago the vast majority of business economists mocked concerns about a "double dip," a second leg to the downturn. But there were a few dogged iconoclasts out there, most notably Stephen Roach at Morgan Stanley. As I've repeatedly said in this column, the arguments of the double-dippers made a lot of sense. And their story now looks more plausible than ever.
The basic point is that the recession of 2001 wasn't a typical postwar slump, brought on when an inflation-fighting Fed raises interest rates and easily ended by a snapback in housing and consumer spending when the Fed brings rates back down again. This was a prewar-style recession, a morning after brought on by irrational exuberance. To fight this recession the Fed needs more than a snapback; it needs soaring household spending to offset moribund business investment. And to do that, as Paul McCulley of Pimco put it, Alan Greenspan needs to create a housing bubble to replace the Nasdaq bubble.
Judging by Mr. Greenspan's remarkably cheerful recent testimony, he still thinks he can pull that off. But the Fed chairman's crystal ball has been cloudy lately; remember how he urged Congress to cut taxes to head off the risk of excessive budget surpluses? And a sober look at recent data is not encouraging.
On the surface, the sharp drop in the economy's growth, from 5 percent in the first quarter to 1 percent in the second, is disheartening. Under the surface, it's quite a lot worse. Even in the first quarter, investment and consumer spending were sluggish; most of the growth came as businesses stopped running down their inventories. In the second quarter, inventories were the whole story: final demand actually fell. And lately straws in the wind that often give advance warning of changes in official statistics, like mall traffic, have been blowing the wrong way.
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On October 19 2012 12:37 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 12:28 sam!zdat wrote:On October 19 2012 12:28 TheFrankOne wrote:On October 19 2012 12:20 jdseemoreglass wrote: There is a difference between pushing through a recession and fostering excessive government induced artificial growth, which establishes a series of bubbles, dot com bubble, financial bubble, housing bubble... When you have artificial growth, a period of flat or dipping GDP growth is not only inevitable, it is necessary. There is a fine line between recession stimulus and bubble creation, and we leap over it every single time. Can you expand on this a bit? Give me some sources to back up your gov spending caused these bubbles claim? he thinks the market is magic by itself and everything bad is because of the government. If something is wrong, the government caused it, qed Standard straw man. I challenge a single person in this thread to deny that the federal reserve's excessive credit policies following the 2001 recession directly influenced the housing bubble. It is the consensus among economists of any stripe. And the liberals favorite pseudo-economist, Paul Krugman, was outright advocating it in 2002.
The guy did win a nobel prize in economics so let's not call him a pseudo-economist, that's just ridiculous. I wouldn't call Friedman a pseudo-economist.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/27/opinion/27krugman.html?_r=0
Oh look, in 2005 he said that the housing stimulus had gone far enough after significant economic growth in the years between... wow, he was right both times! (As long as you keep in mind the original call for a housing bubble was assuming sustaining economic growth at an equivalent rate is the goal) Plus he was right about the EU stimulus as the IMF report showed.
Romney's economic advisers don't even understand the core function of monetary policy. http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2012/09/yes-john-taylor-and-phil-gramm-have-written-a-column-that-reduces-my-utility-i-blame-miles-kimball.html
"Influenced" and "caused" are not the same thing, but I never said that the inflationary monetary policy under Bush was appropriate, hell I'd call it typical Republican behavior with any fiscal or monetary policy, terribly reckless.
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On October 19 2012 12:47 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 12:44 Souma wrote:A libertarian calling a Nobel Laureate a pseudo-economist...  Anyone who puts partisan ideology above economics is a pseudo-economist. That goes for Keynesians, Austrians, Monetarists, or anyone else. Also, you act like the Nobel means anything anymore... -_-
you act as if it doesnt.
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Australia8532 Posts
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On October 19 2012 12:41 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 12:37 jdseemoreglass wrote:On October 19 2012 12:28 sam!zdat wrote:On October 19 2012 12:28 TheFrankOne wrote:On October 19 2012 12:20 jdseemoreglass wrote: There is a difference between pushing through a recession and fostering excessive government induced artificial growth, which establishes a series of bubbles, dot com bubble, financial bubble, housing bubble... When you have artificial growth, a period of flat or dipping GDP growth is not only inevitable, it is necessary. There is a fine line between recession stimulus and bubble creation, and we leap over it every single time. Can you expand on this a bit? Give me some sources to back up your gov spending caused these bubbles claim? he thinks the market is magic by itself and everything bad is because of the government. If something is wrong, the government caused it, qed Standard straw man. Yes but JD you do actually think that. not a keynesian so I have no bone in this fight No, I don't think that at all. Capitalism has negative externalities and failures, government can patch the holes in those failures. Government can also create failures, and often does. Government can raise costs or mis-manipulate the economy.
No matter how much people want to paint me as an extremist, it's not going to stick.
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On October 19 2012 13:03 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 12:41 sam!zdat wrote:On October 19 2012 12:37 jdseemoreglass wrote:On October 19 2012 12:28 sam!zdat wrote:On October 19 2012 12:28 TheFrankOne wrote:On October 19 2012 12:20 jdseemoreglass wrote: There is a difference between pushing through a recession and fostering excessive government induced artificial growth, which establishes a series of bubbles, dot com bubble, financial bubble, housing bubble... When you have artificial growth, a period of flat or dipping GDP growth is not only inevitable, it is necessary. There is a fine line between recession stimulus and bubble creation, and we leap over it every single time. Can you expand on this a bit? Give me some sources to back up your gov spending caused these bubbles claim? he thinks the market is magic by itself and everything bad is because of the government. If something is wrong, the government caused it, qed Standard straw man. Yes but JD you do actually think that. not a keynesian so I have no bone in this fight No, I don't think that at all. Capitalism has negative externalities and failures, government can patch the holes in those failures. Government can also create failures, and often does. Government can raise costs or mis-manipulate the economy. No matter how much people want to paint me as an extremist, it's not going to stick. Sounds like something a certain Republican Presidential candidate I know might say....
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