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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On October 19 2012 13:03 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 12:41 sam!zdat wrote:On October 19 2012 12:37 jdseemoreglass wrote:On October 19 2012 12:28 sam!zdat wrote:On October 19 2012 12:28 TheFrankOne wrote:On October 19 2012 12:20 jdseemoreglass wrote:
There is a difference between pushing through a recession and fostering excessive government induced artificial growth, which establishes a series of bubbles, dot com bubble, financial bubble, housing bubble... When you have artificial growth, a period of flat or dipping GDP growth is not only inevitable, it is necessary. There is a fine line between recession stimulus and bubble creation, and we leap over it every single time. Can you expand on this a bit? Give me some sources to back up your gov spending caused these bubbles claim? he thinks the market is magic by itself and everything bad is because of the government. If something is wrong, the government caused it, qed Standard straw man. Yes but JD you do actually think that. not a keynesian so I have no bone in this fight No, I don't think that at all. Capitalism has negative externalities and failures, government can patch the holes in those failures. Government can also create failures, and often does. Government can raise costs or mis-manipulate the economy. No matter how much people want to paint me as an extremist, it's not going to stick.
There's no such thing as a 'non-extreme Libertarian.' It's a paradox. You may not be extreme relative to other Libertarians, but on a typical scale you'd still be considered extreme.
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Judging by Mr. Greenspan's remarkably cheerful recent testimony, he still thinks he can pull that off. But the Fed chairman's crystal ball has been cloudy lately; remember how he urged Congress to cut taxes to head off the risk of excessive budget surpluses? And a sober look at recent data is not encouraging.
Why Alan Greenspan, why?
I have too much money
#firstworldproblems
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On October 19 2012 13:09 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 13:03 jdseemoreglass wrote:On October 19 2012 12:41 sam!zdat wrote:On October 19 2012 12:37 jdseemoreglass wrote:On October 19 2012 12:28 sam!zdat wrote:On October 19 2012 12:28 TheFrankOne wrote:On October 19 2012 12:20 jdseemoreglass wrote:
There is a difference between pushing through a recession and fostering excessive government induced artificial growth, which establishes a series of bubbles, dot com bubble, financial bubble, housing bubble... When you have artificial growth, a period of flat or dipping GDP growth is not only inevitable, it is necessary. There is a fine line between recession stimulus and bubble creation, and we leap over it every single time. Can you expand on this a bit? Give me some sources to back up your gov spending caused these bubbles claim? he thinks the market is magic by itself and everything bad is because of the government. If something is wrong, the government caused it, qed Standard straw man. Yes but JD you do actually think that. not a keynesian so I have no bone in this fight No, I don't think that at all. Capitalism has negative externalities and failures, government can patch the holes in those failures. Government can also create failures, and often does. Government can raise costs or mis-manipulate the economy. No matter how much people want to paint me as an extremist, it's not going to stick. There's no such thing as a 'non-extreme Libertarian.' It's a paradox. You may not be extreme relative to other Libertarians, but on a typical scale you'd still be considered extreme.
Keep slapping that paint on anyway... Ooh, scary libertarian! So extreme! He favors welfare, government financed education, non-aggressive foreign policy! He favors legalized marijuana, legalized prostitution, and opposes bans on 16 ounce sodas! Look, out, crazy nutjob coming through!
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On October 19 2012 13:16 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 13:09 Souma wrote:On October 19 2012 13:03 jdseemoreglass wrote:On October 19 2012 12:41 sam!zdat wrote:On October 19 2012 12:37 jdseemoreglass wrote:On October 19 2012 12:28 sam!zdat wrote:On October 19 2012 12:28 TheFrankOne wrote:On October 19 2012 12:20 jdseemoreglass wrote:
There is a difference between pushing through a recession and fostering excessive government induced artificial growth, which establishes a series of bubbles, dot com bubble, financial bubble, housing bubble... When you have artificial growth, a period of flat or dipping GDP growth is not only inevitable, it is necessary. There is a fine line between recession stimulus and bubble creation, and we leap over it every single time. Can you expand on this a bit? Give me some sources to back up your gov spending caused these bubbles claim? he thinks the market is magic by itself and everything bad is because of the government. If something is wrong, the government caused it, qed Standard straw man. Yes but JD you do actually think that. not a keynesian so I have no bone in this fight No, I don't think that at all. Capitalism has negative externalities and failures, government can patch the holes in those failures. Government can also create failures, and often does. Government can raise costs or mis-manipulate the economy. No matter how much people want to paint me as an extremist, it's not going to stick. There's no such thing as a 'non-extreme Libertarian.' It's a paradox. You may not be extreme relative to other Libertarians, but on a typical scale you'd still be considered extreme. Keep slapping that paint on anyway... Ooh, scary libertarian! So extreme! He favors welfare, government financed education, non-aggressive foreign policy! He favors legalized marijuana, legalized prostitution, and opposes bans on 16 ounce sodas! Look, out, crazy nutjob coming through!
Stop it, I'm quaking in my boots!
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On October 19 2012 13:16 jdseemoreglass wrote:
He favors welfare, government financed education, non-aggressive foreign policy! He favors legalized marijuana, legalized prostitution, and opposes bans on 16 ounce sodas!
At least you're not a marxist, man. We favor mass starvation, government financed re-education, violent overthrow of the free world, mandatory use of mind control pharmaceuticals, droit de seigneur for all Party members, and bans on 16 ounce sodas!
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On October 19 2012 13:29 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 13:16 jdseemoreglass wrote:
He favors welfare, government financed education, non-aggressive foreign policy! He favors legalized marijuana, legalized prostitution, and opposes bans on 16 ounce sodas! At least you're not a marxist, man. We favor mass starvation, government financed re-education, violent overthrow of the free world, mandatory use of mind control pharmaceuticals, droit de seigneur for all Party members, and bans on 16 ounce sodas!
You foolish fool, how could you tell him our plan? We agreed at the last secret party meeting that we'd not talk about it publicly until we had all the libertarians on the trains going to the camps.
More seriously a group of CEOs wrote an open letter to Obama warning him and Congress to avoid the fiscal cliff.
Source
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On October 19 2012 13:10 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +Judging by Mr. Greenspan's remarkably cheerful recent testimony, he still thinks he can pull that off. But the Fed chairman's crystal ball has been cloudy lately; remember how he urged Congress to cut taxes to head off the risk of excessive budget surpluses? And a sober look at recent data is not encouraging.
Why Alan Greenspan, why? I have too much money #firstworldproblems
Y'know, I won't lie: I think I see a grain of truth to that, lol. In my mind, Congress will expand spending to exceed revenue, under almost any circumstances. I wouldn't want to trust the government with more money than I thought I'd have to. 
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
guys, just for future reference. if the guy is saying it is a bubble, he probably doesn't mean he wanted it to happen. housing bubble and other asset bubbles are not Keynesian necessarily. to generallize it, it is a systematic mispricing of the loans as well as easy as fk money.
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On October 19 2012 13:10 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +Judging by Mr. Greenspan's remarkably cheerful recent testimony, he still thinks he can pull that off. But the Fed chairman's crystal ball has been cloudy lately; remember how he urged Congress to cut taxes to head off the risk of excessive budget surpluses? And a sober look at recent data is not encouraging.
Why Alan Greenspan, why? I have too much money #firstworldproblems
Because excessive surpluses mean less growth. It's over taxation, a government can have significant outstanding debt and it isn't a big deal, that was understood when the country was founded, thanks to Alexander Hamilton we have debt that's been rolling over continuously since we started borrowing money to finance the revolution.
Also, those surpluses should largely be gotten rid of by tax cuts.
I really doubt Greenspan would have said that if he'd seen two wars coming, I think that's a very dated quote, isn't it?
Edit: I made the point about debt to make it clear why we shouldn't have thrown all of our surpluses at the debt when we had them.
Edit2: Sorry I was wrong, the US was debt free for one year in 1835. We managed it by selling off land in a bubble! (I wonder where i heard that thing about always having had debt...)
http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2011/04/15/135423586/when-the-u-s-paid-off-the-entire-national-debt-and-why-it-didnt-last
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On October 19 2012 13:40 TheFrankOne wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 13:10 ticklishmusic wrote:Judging by Mr. Greenspan's remarkably cheerful recent testimony, he still thinks he can pull that off. But the Fed chairman's crystal ball has been cloudy lately; remember how he urged Congress to cut taxes to head off the risk of excessive budget surpluses? And a sober look at recent data is not encouraging.
Why Alan Greenspan, why? I have too much money #firstworldproblems Because excessive surpluses mean less growth. It's over taxation, a government can have significant outstanding debt and it isn't a big deal, that was understood when the country was founded, thanks to Alexander Hamilton we have debt that's been rolling over continuously since we started borrowing money to finance the revolution. Also, those surpluses should largely be gotten rid of by tax cuts. I really doubt Greenspan would have said that if he'd seen two wars coming, I think that's a very dated quote, isn't it? Edit: I made the point about debt to make it clear why we shouldn't have thrown all of our surpluses at the debt when we had them.
Yes, Krugman was describing recent statements given by Greenspan in 2002, and a lot changed very quickly soon after.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
i think one problem here is that libertarians treat fiscal and monetary policy as the same. "government" intervention.
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On October 19 2012 13:29 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 13:16 jdseemoreglass wrote:
He favors welfare, government financed education, non-aggressive foreign policy! He favors legalized marijuana, legalized prostitution, and opposes bans on 16 ounce sodas! At least you're not a marxist, man. We favor mass starvation, government financed re-education, violent overthrow of the free world, mandatory use of mind control pharmaceuticals, droit de seigneur for all Party members, and bans on 16 ounce sodas!
That was all just practice. They were sure they knew best at the time, but designing existence can get prickly. I'm sure eventually the totalitarians, err, I mean progressives will learn how to control people and wealth sufficiently well to make their statist utopia a reality.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
did you know basic minimum income is a libertarian proposal.
if you are talking about hte oppressiveness of taxation, i'd think the tax on labor is much more onerous than a tax on rent or capital income.
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On October 19 2012 13:55 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 13:29 sam!zdat wrote:On October 19 2012 13:16 jdseemoreglass wrote:
He favors welfare, government financed education, non-aggressive foreign policy! He favors legalized marijuana, legalized prostitution, and opposes bans on 16 ounce sodas! At least you're not a marxist, man. We favor mass starvation, government financed re-education, violent overthrow of the free world, mandatory use of mind control pharmaceuticals, droit de seigneur for all Party members, and bans on 16 ounce sodas! That was all just practice. They were sure they knew best at the time, but designing existence can get prickly. I'm sure eventually the totalitarians, err, I mean progressives will learn how to control people and wealth sufficiently well to make their statist utopia a reality.
you realize the Marxist utopia is a stateless one, right?
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On October 19 2012 13:55 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 13:29 sam!zdat wrote:On October 19 2012 13:16 jdseemoreglass wrote:
He favors welfare, government financed education, non-aggressive foreign policy! He favors legalized marijuana, legalized prostitution, and opposes bans on 16 ounce sodas! At least you're not a marxist, man. We favor mass starvation, government financed re-education, violent overthrow of the free world, mandatory use of mind control pharmaceuticals, droit de seigneur for all Party members, and bans on 16 ounce sodas! That was all just practice. They were sure they knew best at the time, but designing existence can get prickly. I'm sure eventually the totalitarians, err, I mean progressives will learn how to control people and wealth sufficiently well to make their statist utopia a reality.
Though he may try, man cannot impede progress.
All your monies will belong to me.
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On October 19 2012 13:59 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 13:55 jdseemoreglass wrote:On October 19 2012 13:29 sam!zdat wrote:On October 19 2012 13:16 jdseemoreglass wrote:
He favors welfare, government financed education, non-aggressive foreign policy! He favors legalized marijuana, legalized prostitution, and opposes bans on 16 ounce sodas! At least you're not a marxist, man. We favor mass starvation, government financed re-education, violent overthrow of the free world, mandatory use of mind control pharmaceuticals, droit de seigneur for all Party members, and bans on 16 ounce sodas! That was all just practice. They were sure they knew best at the time, but designing existence can get prickly. I'm sure eventually the totalitarians, err, I mean progressives will learn how to control people and wealth sufficiently well to make their statist utopia a reality. you realize the Marxist utopia is a stateless one, right?
Sure, sure... "society" will runs things, but it won't be governed... lol
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On October 19 2012 14:02 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 13:59 sam!zdat wrote:On October 19 2012 13:55 jdseemoreglass wrote:On October 19 2012 13:29 sam!zdat wrote:On October 19 2012 13:16 jdseemoreglass wrote:
He favors welfare, government financed education, non-aggressive foreign policy! He favors legalized marijuana, legalized prostitution, and opposes bans on 16 ounce sodas! At least you're not a marxist, man. We favor mass starvation, government financed re-education, violent overthrow of the free world, mandatory use of mind control pharmaceuticals, droit de seigneur for all Party members, and bans on 16 ounce sodas! That was all just practice. They were sure they knew best at the time, but designing existence can get prickly. I'm sure eventually the totalitarians, err, I mean progressives will learn how to control people and wealth sufficiently well to make their statist utopia a reality. you realize the Marxist utopia is a stateless one, right? Sure, sure... "society" will runs things, but it won't be governed... lol
I'm not advocating anything here, I'm just saying... accusing Marx of envisioning a "statist utopia" is kind of ass backward.
edit: I guess you said "progressives" so idk
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
for marxists state is different from organization. you can have stateless organizations. states are pretty oppressive.
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On October 19 2012 14:04 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 14:02 jdseemoreglass wrote:On October 19 2012 13:59 sam!zdat wrote:On October 19 2012 13:55 jdseemoreglass wrote:On October 19 2012 13:29 sam!zdat wrote:On October 19 2012 13:16 jdseemoreglass wrote:
He favors welfare, government financed education, non-aggressive foreign policy! He favors legalized marijuana, legalized prostitution, and opposes bans on 16 ounce sodas! At least you're not a marxist, man. We favor mass starvation, government financed re-education, violent overthrow of the free world, mandatory use of mind control pharmaceuticals, droit de seigneur for all Party members, and bans on 16 ounce sodas! That was all just practice. They were sure they knew best at the time, but designing existence can get prickly. I'm sure eventually the totalitarians, err, I mean progressives will learn how to control people and wealth sufficiently well to make their statist utopia a reality. you realize the Marxist utopia is a stateless one, right? Sure, sure... "society" will runs things, but it won't be governed... lol I'm not advocating anything here, I'm just saying... accusing Marx of envisioning a "statist utopia" is kind of ass backward.
So can I tell people they are being ass-backward when they say that anarchism necessitates chaos?
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
yea. maybe this is to your surprise, but back in the days of the czar you and bakunin would both be labeled anarchists
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EPT
