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Oh man that's the nicest thing anybody's ever said about me. I'll wear that with pride
I've seen that movie but I don't remember. I think I was really high at the time
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On October 10 2012 11:16 kmillz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 07:21 paralleluniverse wrote:On October 10 2012 06:09 kmillz wrote:On October 10 2012 06:02 Signet wrote:On October 10 2012 05:26 Deathmanbob wrote: I wonder if Xdaunt is happy, but RCP now has romney ahead in national polls by .7. While i still think it has a lot to do with post debate bump there is no denying that this race is VERY VERY close and i romney now has a good chance of winning if he next three debates are anything like the first Pew Research has a new poll out showing Romney +4 among likely voters. This has been getting a lot of press today since the same pollster showed Obama +8 before the debates. The crosstabs show 36% Republicans, 33% Democrats. Remember, in the wave year of 2010, the partisan identification was 36% each. Where are the poll unskew-ers now? For the record, I maintain my view that partisan identification is a measured attitude -- not something that pollsters should be doing any reweighting upon. The first debate performance may be causing more conservatives to claim the Republican label and pushing center-left types to call themselves Independent. Basically the opposite of what was happening after the party conventions, when the Democrats had the momentum. It's just amusing to hear all these voices for partisan reweighting fall silent once that highly dynamic variable starts leaning in their favor. In fairness, RCP's Sean Trende has been saying this even before the whole "Unskewed Polls" thing took off. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2012/08/01/cbsnytquinnipiac_swing_state_polls__party_id.html It is kind of funny, I bet those same people who were saying Romney is done, its a blow-out, because of polling data are probably playing down the data now and saying it doesn't mean that much. Who is playing down the polls? It's the other way around. Republicans here were calling the previous polls bullshit, and now that they've swung their way, it's suddenly all accurate. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=330491¤tpage=709#14164The hypocrisy isn't coming from our side, it's coming from yours. I've been saying all along that polls don't mean shit, I just think its funny that liberals are suddenly panicking and playing them down when all this time they were so sure of Romney losing...and alot of confidence that Karl Rove would stop supporting Romney's campaign in favor of using the money to get more support for votes in the House and Senate. Doesn't seem to be the case, he is still paying for ads to propel Romney. "Liberals" are responding to the sudden influx of Republicans shouting about poll numbers. A few weeks ago, Obama was rocking the polls in ways the nation hadn't seen before, so it was news worthy. Now the race has bumped back to being close, so it's like most other Presidential races (like most people actually expected). No longer are polls telling a new story.
The only thing funny is that the bar is so low for Romney that polling on par with Obama is seen as a huge victory.
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On October 10 2012 13:10 aksfjh wrote: The only thing funny is that the bar is so low for Romney that polling on par with Obama is seen as a huge victory.
Keep in mind the bar for Bush was formulating a grammatical sentence, so we're making progress here.
edit: of course, by writing this I'm playing into the whole anti-intellectual strategy, so maybe I should praise his eloquence and ivy league learning instead
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On October 10 2012 12:48 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 12:12 jdseemoreglass wrote: Neither of these candidates is willing to step up to the plate and advocate the real changes that everyone with a brain knows needs to take place because they are too busy pandering to the stupid vote, which makes me lost faith in democracy itself. Yup Democracy is a dying political formWe need to start thinking about alternatives so that we don't end up with a bad one (which will happen if we don't plan ahead and start doing the philosophy NOW) the governance of the future will not be democratic in the way that ours is now, but it will need to incorporate a democratic/plebiscite element Information technology is the key How do you use information technology as a feedback mechanism for government? this is the question we should be asking If you think we are in the "information age" you do not understand. We are now entering the birth pangs of the real information age. What will it look like? It's up to us. The police state is one kind of information age. I'd rather not have that (pace dvorak, who knows I'm secretly Pol Pot's bastard son by Jiang Qing and want to put the brain worms into all y'alls cortexicals)
Democracy is OK in my opinion, but we desperately need more evolved consciousness in the voting public, and as such I believe a greater emphasis on public systems such as education and health care in the United States needs to be more of a priority. The problem in the U.S. as I see it is an overly static and unchanging constitution which invites the politicization of numerous social issues (which many stupid people vote on with singular focus).
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Yes, you could have democracy if you had a highly educated populace. We don't, and won't for some time. Ultimately, of course, having a fully participatory democracy would be great.
edit: this is why the US system originally restricted suffrage to landowners, IMO
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On October 10 2012 13:22 sam!zdat wrote: Yes, you could have democracy if you had a highly educated populace. We don't, and won't for some time. Ultimately, of course, having a fully participatory democracy would be great.
edit: this is why the US system originally restricted suffrage to landowners, IMO
An educated public should perhaps be one of the highest goals of a society, particularly a democracy. I hear alot of people on the right say things like freedom needs to be fought for. Actually I agree with this statement, but not in the way it's made. Military might isn't the way to safeguard freedom, there have been and currently are a multitude of highly militaristic societies that certainly weren't/aren't free. A military might be necessary for freedom to flourish, but it certainly isn't sufficient.
Freedom is promoted and protected through education first and foremost. This is the way it's fought for.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On October 10 2012 11:16 kmillz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 07:21 paralleluniverse wrote:On October 10 2012 06:09 kmillz wrote:On October 10 2012 06:02 Signet wrote:On October 10 2012 05:26 Deathmanbob wrote: I wonder if Xdaunt is happy, but RCP now has romney ahead in national polls by .7. While i still think it has a lot to do with post debate bump there is no denying that this race is VERY VERY close and i romney now has a good chance of winning if he next three debates are anything like the first Pew Research has a new poll out showing Romney +4 among likely voters. This has been getting a lot of press today since the same pollster showed Obama +8 before the debates. The crosstabs show 36% Republicans, 33% Democrats. Remember, in the wave year of 2010, the partisan identification was 36% each. Where are the poll unskew-ers now? For the record, I maintain my view that partisan identification is a measured attitude -- not something that pollsters should be doing any reweighting upon. The first debate performance may be causing more conservatives to claim the Republican label and pushing center-left types to call themselves Independent. Basically the opposite of what was happening after the party conventions, when the Democrats had the momentum. It's just amusing to hear all these voices for partisan reweighting fall silent once that highly dynamic variable starts leaning in their favor. In fairness, RCP's Sean Trende has been saying this even before the whole "Unskewed Polls" thing took off. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2012/08/01/cbsnytquinnipiac_swing_state_polls__party_id.html It is kind of funny, I bet those same people who were saying Romney is done, its a blow-out, because of polling data are probably playing down the data now and saying it doesn't mean that much. Who is playing down the polls? It's the other way around. Republicans here were calling the previous polls bullshit, and now that they've swung their way, it's suddenly all accurate. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=330491¤tpage=709#14164The hypocrisy isn't coming from our side, it's coming from yours. I've been saying all along that polls don't mean shit, I just think its funny that liberals are suddenly panicking and playing them down when all this time they were so sure of Romney losing...and alot of confidence that Karl Rove would stop supporting Romney's campaign in favor of using the money to get more support for votes in the House and Senate. Doesn't seem to be the case, he is still paying for ads to propel Romney.
For the record, the only poll I've ever cared about was 538's. The guy analyzes polls like it's an art.
http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/
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Regardless of education, you can't expect democracy to work when the average guy gets maybe 5 minutes of political news a day (not to mention the quality of these news). The Athenians citizens could have a democracy in great part because they were free from physical labor thanks to the slaves.
Democracy has obvious advantages over the old feudalism, namely thanks to (relative) openness. However, it's far from perfect, and with the internet, I believe it is possible to evolve from it.
Freedom is a self-reinforcing privilege granted by knowledge and wisdom, which takes a lot of time to acquire. The digital revolution presents a fantastic opportunity to shorten that process and distribute it to a much greater audience than ever.
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On October 10 2012 09:03 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 07:18 paralleluniverse wrote:On October 10 2012 02:13 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On October 10 2012 01:49 paralleluniverse wrote:On October 10 2012 01:24 xDaunt wrote:On October 10 2012 01:11 paralleluniverse wrote:On October 10 2012 01:06 xDaunt wrote:On October 10 2012 00:57 oneofthem wrote: it doesn't matter if biden is dumb as a rock, what matters is that ryan's actual policy proposals are DEADLY to romney's chances if biden could manage to get him to repeat them. particularly ryans' stance on the medical programs. get him to go into actual policy and stay far away from tea party puff clouds and biden can do just fine.
and of course ryan's policies are actually hilariously bad and i guess that's what "intellectual horses" gets you nowadays. You do realize that Ryan's policies don't matter anymore, right? Ryan has to push Romney's policies, which he is doing and has been doing since he was selected as VP. As for Ryan's policies, I'm always amused by how liberals view conservative policies with such unwarranted and uninformed condescension. It's no more effective than repeatedly bellowing that Romney lied his ass off throughout the entire debate with Obama. That's okay, though. I like it when the other party is running thoroughly off the rails. Clearly, the truth doesn't matter to you. Only the performance, optics, and spin do. Depends upon what "truth" you are talking about: the cartoonish caricature of Romney that the left has been crafting over the past six months or the nearly indefensible record of a four-year, failed presidency? I think it's pretty clear which "truth" matters more to the electorate. Caricature? We've debunked this many times. And we (not you) have discussed this to death on this thread already. Yes, Romney has a plan to cut taxes by 20%, it's on his own website so how is that a caricature? No, it's not possible to make up $5T in loss revenue by closing loopholes. No, Romney's plan does not cover preexisting conditions, it's the same as the current law, he's own aide even said so after the debate. It's hard to pin down Romney's policies, because he keeps flip-flopping. But, again, we (not you) have already gone over this to death. If you had a problem with our characterization of Romney's plan why didn't you say something when we were discussing this? Oh, because you never talk about substance and policy, you just talk about optics and make cocky remarks about Obama being fucked. That's not correct. There are, in fact, enough tax expenditures available to make the 20% cut revenue neutral. Prove it, Ok, no problem. http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/UploadedPDF/1001628-Base-Broadening-Tax-Reform.pdfShow nested quote +in order to offset $360 billion in cuts, one must eliminate 65 percent of all of the available $551 billion in tax expenditures. So, according to the TPC there are plenty tax expenditures available to pay for a 20% cut in rates. Now, if you want to rephrase your statement to include other issues like the progressiveness of the tax system then you'd have a point. Kinda. If you go back to Simpson-Bowles large rate cuts were possible to pay for by broadening the base with the after-effect of increasing the progressiveness of the tax code. There are of course differences between Simpson-Bowles and Romney's plan that make maintaining the progressiveness of the tax code harder, namely the desire to eliminate the estate tax and maintain current rates on investment, but as we've discussed before what constitutes a tax expenditure that promotes savings and investment is debatable and so it is hard to be conclusive. And before you get all uppity about Romney over promising (*gasp* a politician that over promises!) let's not forget about the, ahem, 'creative accounting' that makes Obamacare possible. In in the very next paragraph it says:
In addition, this poses a direct challenge to preserving the same distribution of tax burdens as under the existing tax schedule because many of these available tax expenditures were designed to benefit lower- and middle-income households. For instance, Figure 2 compare the revenue arising from tax rate cuts and AMT and estate tax relief to the potential revenue that could be raised by eliminating the non-protected tax expenditures, by income group. The revenue reductions are concentrated in the middle- and higher-income levels, but the potential revenue raisers are even more concentrated among lower- and middle-income taxpayers. For the top income groups, revenue losses greatly outweigh the potential revenue available from base broadening. As a result, it is not mathematically possible to design a revenue-neutral plan that preserves current incentives for savings and investment and that does not result in a net tax cut for high-income taxpayers and a net tax increase for lower- and/or middle-income taxpayers under the assumptions we have described above. This means that even if tax expenditures are eliminated in a way designed to make the resulting tax system as progressive as possible, there would still be a shift in the tax burden of roughly $86 billion from those making over $200,000 to those making less than that amount
And then it shows this graph:
![[image loading]](http://www.csmonitor.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/media/content/2012/0802-chart/13335596-1-eng-US/0802-chart_full_600.jpg)
This graphs shows that at the top, there isn't enough loopholes to close, such that the rich don't get a net tax cut. But isn't that what Romney said in the debate? That the rich won't be getting a tax cut. Well, it's not possible under his plan for the rich not to get a net tax cut. Another lie.
And at the bottom? That's where most of the deductions are that are needed to make his plan revenue neutral. He would have to eliminate these loopholes, increasing net taxes on the poor and middle class to make it work.
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On October 10 2012 08:55 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 08:23 paralleluniverse wrote:On October 10 2012 07:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On October 10 2012 07:18 paralleluniverse wrote:On October 10 2012 02:13 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On October 10 2012 01:49 paralleluniverse wrote:On October 10 2012 01:24 xDaunt wrote:On October 10 2012 01:11 paralleluniverse wrote:On October 10 2012 01:06 xDaunt wrote:On October 10 2012 00:57 oneofthem wrote: it doesn't matter if biden is dumb as a rock, what matters is that ryan's actual policy proposals are DEADLY to romney's chances if biden could manage to get him to repeat them. particularly ryans' stance on the medical programs. get him to go into actual policy and stay far away from tea party puff clouds and biden can do just fine.
and of course ryan's policies are actually hilariously bad and i guess that's what "intellectual horses" gets you nowadays. You do realize that Ryan's policies don't matter anymore, right? Ryan has to push Romney's policies, which he is doing and has been doing since he was selected as VP. As for Ryan's policies, I'm always amused by how liberals view conservative policies with such unwarranted and uninformed condescension. It's no more effective than repeatedly bellowing that Romney lied his ass off throughout the entire debate with Obama. That's okay, though. I like it when the other party is running thoroughly off the rails. Clearly, the truth doesn't matter to you. Only the performance, optics, and spin do. Depends upon what "truth" you are talking about: the cartoonish caricature of Romney that the left has been crafting over the past six months or the nearly indefensible record of a four-year, failed presidency? I think it's pretty clear which "truth" matters more to the electorate. Caricature? We've debunked this many times. And we (not you) have discussed this to death on this thread already. Yes, Romney has a plan to cut taxes by 20%, it's on his own website so how is that a caricature? No, it's not possible to make up $5T in loss revenue by closing loopholes. No, Romney's plan does not cover preexisting conditions, it's the same as the current law, he's own aide even said so after the debate. It's hard to pin down Romney's policies, because he keeps flip-flopping. But, again, we (not you) have already gone over this to death. If you had a problem with our characterization of Romney's plan why didn't you say something when we were discussing this? Oh, because you never talk about substance and policy, you just talk about optics and make cocky remarks about Obama being fucked. That's not correct. There are, in fact, enough tax expenditures available to make the 20% cut revenue neutral. Prove it, On October 10 2012 02:15 xDaunt wrote:On October 10 2012 02:09 farvacola wrote:On October 10 2012 01:49 paralleluniverse wrote:On October 10 2012 01:24 xDaunt wrote:On October 10 2012 01:11 paralleluniverse wrote:On October 10 2012 01:06 xDaunt wrote: [quote] You do realize that Ryan's policies don't matter anymore, right? Ryan has to push Romney's policies, which he is doing and has been doing since he was selected as VP.
As for Ryan's policies, I'm always amused by how liberals view conservative policies with such unwarranted and uninformed condescension. It's no more effective than repeatedly bellowing that Romney lied his ass off throughout the entire debate with Obama. That's okay, though. I like it when the other party is running thoroughly off the rails. Clearly, the truth doesn't matter to you. Only the performance, optics, and spin do. Depends upon what "truth" you are talking about: the cartoonish caricature of Romney that the left has been crafting over the past six months or the nearly indefensible record of a four-year, failed presidency? I think it's pretty clear which "truth" matters more to the electorate. Caricature? We've debunked this many times. And we (not you) have discussed this to death on this thread already. Yes, Romney has a plan to cut taxes by 20%, it's on his own website so how is that a caricature? No, it's not possible to make up $5T in loss revenue by closing loopholes. No, Romney's plan does not cover preexisting conditions, it's the same as the current law, he's own aide even said so after the debate. It's hard to pin down Romney's policies, because he keeps flip-flopping. But, again, we (not you) have already gone over this to death. If you had a problem with our characterization of Romney's plan why didn't you say something when we were discussing this? Oh, because you never talk about substance and policy, you just talk about optics and make cocky remarks about Obama being fucked. xDaunt is merely doing his part as he shamelessly imitates the Romney campaigning strategy; deny everything, say nothing of substance, and pile on the assertive fortune telling mixed with sophomoric pejoration. I mean, come on, we got his debate score; all of this hot air falls pretty neatly in line with the Republican platform this cycle. My debate score was pretty damned accurate. If anything, I was generous to Obama compared to what many liberals are saying about his performance. I have offered plenty of substantive commentary. Hell, I even talked about the tax thing. All these studies that democrats keep pushing on Romney's tax plan (like the TPC) are based upon flawed assumptions. This has been discussed ad nauseum already. Again, what all you liberals seem to have forgotten is that this election is referendum on Obama, not Romney. Unsurprisingly, you aren't even really bothering to defend him. What flawed assumptions? There are more studies than the TPC too. Here's one from Brookings which finds the same thing despite accounting for unrealistically large economic growth from Greg Mankiw's model: http://www.brookings.edu/research/papers/2012/08/01-tax-reform-brown-gale-looneyAll of these are nonpartisan organizations. The only "studies" that dispute these results are partisan and have been debunked. No, this is not just a referendum on Obama, no matter how much you say it is. For that to be true, we would need to assume that Romney doesn't exist. http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/check-math-romneys-tax-plan-doesnt-raise-middle-class-taxes_653485.html?page=1http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/princeton-economist-math-behind-romneys-tax-plan-adds_653618.htmlthese are good places to start. and btw, isn't Brookings the same place that does the TPC reports? We've been over this. Every study in support of Romney is by Republican economists, which Rosen is. That study basically defines above $100,000 as above the middle class. This study has been debunked here: http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2012/09/department-of-huh-harvey-rosen-says-that-the-romney-tax-cuts-will-raise-national-incomes-by-3-5-or-7-percent.htmlHere: Harvey Rosen also says that Romney could pay for it if he retains the Estate Tax--which Romney has promised to eliminate--and massively raises taxes on all households making between $100,000/year and $200,000/year by eliminating all of their deductions as well. And here: Princeton professor Harvey Rosen simply ignores the fact that Romney would repeal the estate tax (which affects only the top 0.3% wealthiest estates) and roll back Medicare taxes for the 2% of families with the highest incomes. In other words, Rosen wishes away roughly one fifth of the tax cuts for the wealthy that are included in Romney’s plan. Rosen also argues that optimistic economic growth assumptions could pay for Romney’s tax plan, but he ignores the fact that the Tax Policy Center study showed that even using research by Romney advisor Greg Mankiw on the impact of tax rates on growth—an approach that wouldn’t be accepted by Treasury, the Congressional Budget Office, or most budget analysts—you can’t make Romney’s plan add up. leaving ad hominem out of it (it doesn't matter if they're Republican or not, we're dealing with math here), you're wrong about one thing. they don't only discuss <$100,000 as middle class, but <$200,000 also. i think we can all agree that above $200,000/yr is bordering on rich. anyway, let's look at Rosen's own reasoning: Show nested quote +Another issue that has to be dealt with at the outset is how to define “high-income.” This is not a term of art. Some people would regard a family with an income of $175,000 as being rich, while others would say that it is middle-class. Since who is “high-income” is in the eyes of the beholder, I again do the analysis twice, once for households with $100,000 or more in income, and once only for households with $200,000 or more. now, to the "debunking" this guy doesn't debunk anything, but simply states that the theory that Romney's plan will lead to economic growth is bullshit. but first, let's take Rosen's reasoning in even calculating growth as a part of the equation: Show nested quote +Second, and relatedly, in the academic literature, it would not be considered exotic or even mildly controversial to include behavioral effects in analyses of tax policy. There is a long tradition of doing so. Indeed, my guess is that it would be challenging to publish a paper on the distribution of the tax burden in a first-rate academic journal if that paper assumed that no one’s labor or savings behavior differed across various tax regimes. Show nested quote +Finally, it seems odd to assume away possible increases in incomes associated with a given tax reform proposal when its explicit goal is to enhance growth. This observation raises another reason that is given for excluding macro-dynamic effects—the impact of taxes on economic growth is uncertain. To be sure, there is a lot of disagreement on this issue among professional economists. But that is not sufficient cause to assume that the right answer is exactly zero. Rather, a more sensible approach is to consider alternative assumptions about how tax reform might affect the size of the economy, and see how they affect the substantive conclusions. As explained in the next section, this is the tack that I take. as we can see, his reasoning for using assumed growth is both valid and desirable for such an analysis. even more important, and pertinent, is the fact that Romney is expecting such growth out of his plan. therefore, even if we were to disagree on the accuracy of that growth, we can reasonably assume that Romney believes the growth will exist, therefore, there is no "flip-flop". just a disagreement on the numbers. now that we've eliminated the "flip-flop" argument, let's move on to the actual numbers, and once again, we will take Rosen's own words: Show nested quote +Compute the amount of tax paid by high-income taxpayers under the Romney plan allowing for micro-dynamic behavioral effects, i.e., effects on the tax base that occur because people re-arrange their affairs (but not their labor supply or saving decisions) when tax rates change. As usual, there are differences among economists about the magnitude of these responses. My reading of the literature is that for high-income individuals, this response is substantial. I assume that for every hundred dollars that the government might expect to lose by reducing tax rates on this group, revenues fall by only about $89 because of decreases in various avoidance activities. This is toward the low end of responses that have been estimated by economists. and concerning his figure of 3, 5 and 7% growth: Show nested quote +Although both economic theory and historical experience suggest that a tax system with lower marginal rates and a broader base would enhance growth, there is considerable controversy with respect to the quantitative impact. Put another way, the honest answer is that no one knows for sure. Economic behavior is very complicated, and let’s face it, economic forecasters haven’t exactly covered themselves in glory during the past few years. But, as I emphasized above, it by no means follows that a zero response is the right answer. Given the uncertainty that attaches to these types of estimates, it makes sense to see how the results would differ assuming several different values for the growth-induced increase in incomes. I therefore include estimates for 3, 5, and 7 percentage points.
The 5 percent figure is consistent with Diamond’s [2012] analysis, which is the only paper I have seen that embeds the Romney plan in a modern growth model. Diamond’s computations are based on the assumption that the baseline is the law that will apply if the 2001/2003 tax changes are allowed to lapse, at least for high-income taxpayers. I refer to this as the “2013 law.” The 2013 law embodies considerably higher tax rates than the 2012 law, so it is likely that the reform-induced increases in growth would be less with the 2012 than the 2013 baseline. That’s because the more efficient the starting point, the lower are the incremental benefits of introducing a tax system with lower rates and a broader base. Therefore, my guess is that the growth effects using the 2012 baseline are lower than Diamond’s estimate; 3 percentage points seems a reasonable figure. this all seems very legitimate to me. of course, the article that you provided does have a nice incredulous tone, but besides that, it doesn't offer much in the way of numbers to prove his assumptions wrong. as for the Estate Tax... i don't know. i didn't see anything about it in Rosen's paper so... however, even if we do conclude that there are some problems with the numbers, we can still reasonably assume that Romney is not flip-flopping. Yep, so Rosen's analysis works if you ignore the estate tax AND assume large economic growth from tax cuts (lol) AND if you raise taxes paid by those around 100K-200K.
Basically showing that you need to raise taxes on the middle class (which is actually defined as 250K or less in most political discourse).
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On October 10 2012 14:36 RavenLoud wrote: Regardless of education, you can't expect democracy to work when the average guy gets maybe 5 minutes of political news a day (not to mention the quality of these news). The Athenians citizens could have a democracy in great part because they were free from physical labor thanks to the slaves.
False, most of the citizens were farmers, not even living in the city. And most of those farmers were small farmers and couldn't afford slaves. Being free from physical labor isn't the reason of Athene's democratic success.
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Here's what I find both ironic and sad about most of the Republican/Romney supporters in this thread.
Before the debate, where were you saying that Romney's healthcare plan covers preexisting conditions? When did you deny that Romney had a $5T tax plan? When did you argue that Romney was not going to reduce taxes on the rich?
I don't recall seeing any of these points before the debate. But ever since Romney made these declarations in the debate, you're now suddenly all out in force pedaling his flip-flops and lies as if they always were.
"We are at war with Eastasia. We have always been at war with Eastasia."
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I can't imagine how someone can think the US military needs another 100billion per year... It pays more on military than the next 20+ countries combined, and those countries happen to be allies... I'll ask again, are people still that naive that they're living in the cold war? In the cold war, if you watch Rober Macnamarra''s documentary on it, you find that the US was a much more superior nation military wise than Russia and most of the military argued that if war is imminent within this year or a hundred they should hit when they're more powerful but Kennedy reasoned that because of nuclear arms a war is unrealistic and then came "mutually assured destruction"...
There is no nation on earth right now that can even remotely rival America militarily even though their grunt forces are relatively poorly trained in comparison to other Western nations they simply have the technology and funds to go head to head with mutliple nations. They're equivalent to the power of Nazi Germany in WW2 (No I'm not comparing them to hitler, I just mean military power) if not stronger so "cutting" funds isn't going to change that anytime soon...
That along with the fact no major nation can wage war anymore due to Nuclear arms we're stuck in a stand still where peace must be kept or all nations lose.
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On October 10 2012 19:04 NeMeSiS3 wrote: I can't imagine how someone can think the US military needs another 100billion per year... It pays more on military than the next 20+ countries combined, and those countries happen to be allies... I'll ask again, are people still that naive that they're living in the cold war? In the cold war, if you watch Rober Macnamarra''s documentary on it, you find that the US was a much more superior nation military wise than Russia and most of the military argued that if war is imminent within this year or a hundred they should hit when they're more powerful but Kennedy reasoned that because of nuclear arms a war is unrealistic and then came "mutually assured destruction"...
There is no nation on earth right now that can even remotely rival America militarily even though their grunt forces are relatively poorly trained in comparison to other Western nations they simply have the technology and funds to go head to head with mutliple nations. They're equivalent to the power of Nazi Germany in WW2 (No I'm not comparing them to hitler, I just mean military power) if not stronger so "cutting" funds isn't going to change that anytime soon...
That along with the fact no major nation can wage war anymore due to Nuclear arms we're stuck in a stand still where peace must be kept or all nations lose.
Honestly, who would save you from Alien Invasion if US decided to slow down their military advances? Russia? China? It is not farfetched that we gonna be attacked by aliens within 20 years.
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On October 10 2012 19:08 Prime`Rib wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 19:04 NeMeSiS3 wrote: I can't imagine how someone can think the US military needs another 100billion per year... It pays more on military than the next 20+ countries combined, and those countries happen to be allies... I'll ask again, are people still that naive that they're living in the cold war? In the cold war, if you watch Rober Macnamarra''s documentary on it, you find that the US was a much more superior nation military wise than Russia and most of the military argued that if war is imminent within this year or a hundred they should hit when they're more powerful but Kennedy reasoned that because of nuclear arms a war is unrealistic and then came "mutually assured destruction"...
There is no nation on earth right now that can even remotely rival America militarily even though their grunt forces are relatively poorly trained in comparison to other Western nations they simply have the technology and funds to go head to head with mutliple nations. They're equivalent to the power of Nazi Germany in WW2 (No I'm not comparing them to hitler, I just mean military power) if not stronger so "cutting" funds isn't going to change that anytime soon...
That along with the fact no major nation can wage war anymore due to Nuclear arms we're stuck in a stand still where peace must be kept or all nations lose.
Honestly, who would save you from Alien Invasion if US decided to slow down their military advances? Russia? China? It is not farfetched that we gonna be attacked by aliens within 20 years. Well... I thought I saw every possible argument for military spending, internet wins once again. I can't believe that you viably process this as reasonable... Mind = blown.
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When looking at these 2 presidential nominees, you think they are the complete opposites of each other, and that their politics differ, but it's not like that at all. They're actually almost identical in politics, it's just so that we can call this a democracy and pretend that we have a choice.
Ron Paul should've won.
OnT ; Obama is going to win.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
The military, like most of the rest of the U.S. government and bureaucracy, does not need more money. What they need is reform so that money is spent more efficiently. We are throwing hundreds of billions away every year due to exorbitant overhead costs and cronyism. It needs to stop and I'm sure both sides can agree with this.
And since we're on the topic of military spending, here's something I posted before:
+ Show Spoiler +On October 01 2012 00:22 Souma wrote:Interesting passages from Mike Lofgren on our military-industrial complex and DOD spending: Show nested quote +A cynic might conclude that this militaristic enthusiasm could be explained by the simple fact that Pentagon contractors spread a lot of bribe money around Capitol Hill. That is of course true, but there is more to it than that. Some members of Congress will claim that they are protecting constituents' jobs, but even that doesn't really explain it. The wildly uneven concentration of defense contracts and military bases means that some areas, such as Washington, D.C., and San Diego, are heavily dependent on DOD spending, but in most of the country the balance is a net negative: More is paid out in taxes to support the Pentagon than comes back in local contracts.
Economic justifications for Pentagon spending are even less persuasive when one considers that the $600 billion spent every year on the DOD generates comparatively few jobs per dollar spent. The days of Rosie the Riveter are long gone; most weapons projects now require very little touch labor. Instead, a disproportionate share is siphoned off into high-cost R&D (from which the civilian economy benefits little), exorbitant management expenditures, whopping overheard, and out-and-out padding--including, of course, the money that flows back into the coffers of political campaigns. A dollar appropriated for highway construction, health care, or education will create many more jobs than a dollar appropriated for Pentagon weapons procurement: The jobs argument is thoroughly specious. A University of Massachusetts study claims that several alternative ways of spending money would produce anywhere from 35% to 138% more jobs than spending the same amount on DOD (http://www.peri.umass.edu/fileadmin/pdf/published_study/PERI_military_spending_2011.pdf ).
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When I arrived on the Hill during Reagan's first term, I was a conventional, mainstream Republican. I believed in the notion of peace through strength. At that time the slogan translated quite literally into spending more money on the Pentagon. The Soviet Union had invaded Afghanistan not long before, and the Warsaw Pact seemed like a powerful and monolithic threat. I did not know then (and was probably too naively trusting to have believed it even if someone had tried to dispel my illusions) that the intelligence agencies were systematically inflating the Soviet threat, and that the Soviet military was far weaker than we imagined.
The senior appointees at the CIA--chief among them Robert Gates, who was then deputy director for intelligence--became so enamored of the concept of the Soviet threat that they somehow missed the fact that the collapse of the Warsaw Pact lay only a few years ahead. Senators attending the hearings for Gates's confirmation as CIA director in 1991 brushed aside testimony from former CIA employees about his intelligence distortions because the fix was in, and President George H. W. Bush was not to be denied his nominee.
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My doubts as to the proper management of our military-industrial complex here at home began to grow around the same time. I worked in a congressional office representing a district in Ohio where the B-1 bomber--a project the Carter administration had canceled and the Reagan administration had revived as a cornerstone of its buildup policy--was a significant source of employment. One can generally tell which weapon system is built in a congressman's district by the contractor models on the office desks, the pictures on the walls, and the frequent presence of lobbyists from the company that builds the system. In our case, it was all B-1 all the time.
By the late 1980s, as the first production examples began to enter service, a funny thing happened--although it would not have been funny to the taxpayer who was funding the plane at a then considerable cost of $280 million each. The aircraft's defensive avionics, which were supposed to detect and neutralize enemy electronic systems seeking to find and destroy the B-1, were seriously interfering with the plane's own offensive avionics, whose goal was to help it find enemy targets and attack them. In other words, the contractors had managed to build a self-jamming bomber.
Three planes were written off in crashes shortly after the B-1 entered operational status. Two of these were caused by a poor design in the fuel of hydraulic lines. It soon became evident that needless secrecy surrounded the crash reports: The services hid the details even from Armed Services Committee members with the requisite clearances and an obvious need to know what had happened. The B-1 was AWOL in the first Gulf war, and when it took part in operations in Kosovo in 1999, it flew only after older aircraft--like the antique B-52 it had been intended to replace--had already suppressed Serbian air defenses. There are dozens of weapons systems like the B-1 rattling around in the Pentagon's closet--cold war dinosaurs that are overpriced, underperforming, and unreliable. Every one of them has a coalition of congressional supporters who protect it from conception until decades later, when the military retires it from service; and even then, many in Congress will lobby for a reversal. Keeping these dinosaurs operating assures jobs for constituents. But at what cost to the rest of us?
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This procedure (referring to numerous cover-ups) is now standard both in military departments and civilian agencies. If there is a procurement scandal, the solution is the Band-Aid of toothless "acquisition reform," leaving the same people to administer the programs. The failures of high-level policy judgments that played the biggest part in allowing 9/11 to occur were disguised as the much less significant failures of intelligence collection, analysis, and interagency sharing. Why? If the public were to blame policy judgments at the top, George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Condolezza Rice, and several cabinet secretaries might be on the hook. But if the fault could be placed on operatives lower down the food chain, as well as on "institutional failures" of the bureaucracy, Congress and the public could be distracted by the monkey motion of "reform" and government reorganization. This is how we ended up with even more bureaucracy in the form of the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, not to mention the monstrosity of the Department of Homeland Security.
The dysfunctions of our uniformed military, our intelligence agencies (85 percent of whose funding flows through military budgets), and the rest of government did not arise overnight, and they did not form in a vacuum. They are partially the products of odd and seldom-remarked schizophrenia that has grown up in our political culture. There are many people active in politics who claim they would man the barricades and fight to the death against socialism. But these are almost always the same people who also say they adore the U.S. military, which is probably the largest--certainly the most lavishly funded--socialist institution remaining on Earth since the collapse of the USSR and the transformation of China.
America's military bases are separate little worlds with their own law enforcement and traffic rules--not to mention their own grocery stores (commissaries), big-box stores (PXs), and so on, down to their own DOD Dependents School system, child care centers, housing, and comprehensive health care system--all of them run by the government. There are important historical reasons why these facilities arose, having to do with the low salaries of the old draft military and the frequent remoteness of military bases from retail business, schools, and essential services (on the frontier or overseas, for example). These facilities remain an important factor in the retention of military personnel, particularly those with dependents, to this day. But it is a socialist, or at least highly welfarist state, arrangement. Today, with the advent of the all-volunteer force, salaries are much higher; according to the Congressional Budget Office, military pay averages around the seventy-fifth percentile when compared to civilian jobs with comparable skills. Other studies by the CBO have demonstrated that in several cases, such as the commissaries (the huge retail grocery chains operated by the DOD), a cash allowance would give service members the same level of grocery benefit that they enjoy now--at substantially less cost. Yet whenever the Pentagon offers a proposal to change these arrangements--such as letting annual healthcare premiums for retirees rise with inflation (they have remained the same since 1995)--Congress invariably rejects it, with the free-market, fiscal hawk Republicans usually leading the opposition.
This same sort of military socialism prevails in regions of the country heavily dependent on military contracts. Loudon County, Virginia, an outer suburb of Washington, D.C., offers a perfect example of this ethos. It is the richest county in the United States when measured by median household income. It is very enthusiastically Republican. And the number-one and number-two military contracts in the country, Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman, are located there. Fairfax County, the county next to Loudon, has the second-highest median household income in the country. The fifth-ranked military contractor, General Dynamics, is based there.
It is no anomaly that areas of the country heavily involved in military contracting are so wealthy. A study by the Project on Government Oversight found that in the thirty-three of thirty-five job categories the government paid billions more to private companies than they would have paid government employees to do the same job. On average they paid about twice as much. A source industry has told me that DynCorp employees acting as security guards at military bases are obtained under contracts paying the company four dollars for every dollar the guard gets paid. Beyond the extravagant profit margins involved, this arrangement reveals that the military can no longer guard its own facilities with its own personnel. Since the 1990s, our army can no longer even feed itself whenever it takes the field; service contractors such as Halliburton do that for the usual exorbitant markup. And the taxpayer takes a further hit, because the contractors often hire retired military personnel (or lure serving personnel to retire by offering them more pay); this means that these ostensibly private employees are frequently getting paid both a salary from the government that is washed through the contracting company, which takes its cut, and a government pension. To top off the bargain, this process is how the military loses some of its most experienced personnel. He goes into much more detail. All-in-all it's a lot more shady than I previously expected.
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On October 10 2012 19:08 Prime`Rib wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 19:04 NeMeSiS3 wrote: I can't imagine how someone can think the US military needs another 100billion per year... It pays more on military than the next 20+ countries combined, and those countries happen to be allies... I'll ask again, are people still that naive that they're living in the cold war? In the cold war, if you watch Rober Macnamarra''s documentary on it, you find that the US was a much more superior nation military wise than Russia and most of the military argued that if war is imminent within this year or a hundred they should hit when they're more powerful but Kennedy reasoned that because of nuclear arms a war is unrealistic and then came "mutually assured destruction"...
There is no nation on earth right now that can even remotely rival America militarily even though their grunt forces are relatively poorly trained in comparison to other Western nations they simply have the technology and funds to go head to head with mutliple nations. They're equivalent to the power of Nazi Germany in WW2 (No I'm not comparing them to hitler, I just mean military power) if not stronger so "cutting" funds isn't going to change that anytime soon...
That along with the fact no major nation can wage war anymore due to Nuclear arms we're stuck in a stand still where peace must be kept or all nations lose.
Honestly, who would save you from Alien Invasion if US decided to slow down their military advances? Russia? China? It is not farfetched that we gonna be attacked by aliens within 20 years.
It's okay man. I am sure the world will forgive you for lowering your military spending and thus dooming us all in the event of the unforeseen, intensely far-fetched, billion to one, ridiculous scenario of an alien invasion of earth.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
democracy can work if we relax some of the requirements for what it means.
people have political agency as well as interests. it is not possible to exercise the agency without properly informed electorate, unless there be a political class with high integrity and no interest capture. short of star trek i don't know if this is presently possible. even university faculty level organizations are pretty bad sometimes so education in general does not mean good political behavior.
the politics of popular interest, however, is more generous, because it is outcomes based rather than process based. someone cannot "do" politics for you by definition of voting, but they can pretty reliably tell if something is good for you. the distinction is particularly important when you realize the administration of government is a pretty technical job and you can study it and improve the skills of the administrators and design of institutions. even a popular government is faced with technical problems that the nature of institutions and the economy pose. to a large extent this is already happening and thus the 'administrative state.' there is still the worry of interest capture, but i think it is easier to maintain popular interest, or some other metric of outcome, than a good faith replication of the popular will.
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Yes, well said. By "democracy" I tend to mean our particular system of voting in national/statewide elections for representatives to a deliberative body/executive office.
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