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Hey guys! We'll be closing this thread shortly, but we will make an American politics megathread where we can continue the discussions in here. The new thread can be found here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383301 | ||
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rogzardo
610 Posts
On October 09 2012 12:02 jdseemoreglass wrote: Teacher's UNIONS, not teachers. No one loves war, no one wants starvation, no one hates teachers, "war on women,"... But all this hyperbole is about money, right? Yup. It is all about money. | ||
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sc2superfan101
3583 Posts
On October 09 2012 11:30 jdseemoreglass wrote: We found him. We found the man in the US who is actually excited and enthusiastic about Mitt Romney. Someone get Fox News on the phone immediately. On a serious note, are you just a troll poster, or you really believe this? i'm excited and enthusiastic about Mitt Romney. i don't think he will be the greatest President we've ever had... lol, but i do think he'll be a good one. | ||
Souma
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On October 09 2012 12:02 jdseemoreglass wrote: Teacher's UNIONS, not teachers. No one loves war, no one wants starvation, no one hates teachers, "war on women,"... But all this hyperbole is about money, right? What the hell do you think teachers' unions represent? Shoe makers? | ||
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On October 09 2012 12:00 rogzardo wrote: Dvorak, making his case for the right by attacking teachers. Classy. EDIT: and re-posting the same graph 3 times. Surely you do not think that giving teachers (or anyone for that matter) everything they ask for is always good government policy? | ||
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dvorakftw
681 Posts
On October 09 2012 11:21 TotalBalanceSC2 wrote: Because some of the money has to be paid to the shareholders of edu-corp or what have you, thereby taking some money out of the system that could otherwise be paid to teachers or used for other things? edit: Still, I was under the impression private schools pay teachers better anyways, am I wrong? Averages are skewed because of the religious nature of many private schools along with cost of living variables. Good teachers would make more in a full private national system. | ||
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rogzardo
610 Posts
On October 09 2012 12:13 JonnyBNoHo wrote: Surely you do not think that giving teachers (or anyone for that matter) everything they ask for is always good government policy? Oh, come off it with the leading questions. Always helping blind grandmas cross the street can be bad. What I do know is that this guy is making everyone on the right look bad. | ||
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Souma
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On October 09 2012 12:13 JonnyBNoHo wrote: Surely you do not think that giving teachers (or anyone for that matter) everything they ask for is always good government policy? Surely no one has said that. Though I will always trust teachers over corporations aka Prop 32. | ||
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dvorakftw
681 Posts
On October 09 2012 11:25 Defacer wrote: I can't imagine where we would be without socialized medicine. The debt that his treatment and death would have cost us would have been enormous. The cost is enormous BECAUSE it is socialized. But feel free to continue believing the laws of economics don't apply to health care because health care is like really important. | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
On October 09 2012 12:20 dvorakftw wrote: The cost is enormous BECAUSE it is socialized. But feel free to continue believing the laws of economics don't apply to health care because health care is like really important. So in the free market health crises are magically resolved very cheaply? It would be catastrophically expensive even if it were much cheaper... | ||
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dvorakftw
681 Posts
On October 09 2012 11:29 Souma wrote: I agree with that actually. Teachers should be evaluated in some kind of way. The way they should be evaluated is largely up for debate though. Tenure is iffy but teachers with tenure can still be fired if there's sufficient reason. Anyway, in case you're wondering why the California Teacher's union is spending so much money on politics, California is: 46th in the country for K-12 spending per student. 47th for K-12 spending relative to personal income. 50th in numbers of teachers per student. 49th for guidance counselors per student. 50th for librarians per student. 46th for administrators per student. Couple that with the mere fact that California obviously has the most teachers overall in the country (highest population by far), thus the unions have more money overall, and you get the picture. The Governator SCREWED our education system. The more affluent neighborhoods are doing fine because they get tons of private donations, but everywhere else is a bungling wastehole. It's going to take us a lot of time to get out of this mess, and trying to destroy unions and blaming teachers gets us nowhere. Wow I wonder what people did before Google. ![[image loading]](http://waznmentobe.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/120118-california-sat-vs-spending.gif) | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
On October 09 2012 12:20 dvorakftw wrote: The cost is enormous BECAUSE it is socialized. But feel free to continue believing the laws of economics don't apply to health care because health care is like really important. The cost of healthcare in a free market is much more expensive and artificially inflated by unnecessary administrative costs and private care providers gouging insurers at different rates. I've had this argument too many times. I'm pretty sure I've provided you a long list of reference before you where banned. I'm tired of doing other people's research for them. | ||
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On October 09 2012 12:16 rogzardo wrote: Oh, come off it with the leading questions. Always helping blind grandmas cross the street can be bad. What I do know is that this guy is making everyone on the right look bad. Sorry if I'm off base - I haven't read the entire discussion between you guys. But he just posted an article about teachers wanting a 30% pay raise - that seems unreasonable. I don't see how being critical of such a pay raise constitutes an attack on teachers. | ||
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rogzardo
610 Posts
On October 09 2012 12:32 JonnyBNoHo wrote: Sorry if I'm off base - I haven't read the entire discussion between you guys. But he just posted an article about teachers wanting a 30% pay raise - that seems unreasonable. I don't see how being critical of such a pay raise constitutes an attack on teachers. Honestly, I stopped reading anything he posted a ways back. I have no idea what it even said. | ||
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dvorakftw
681 Posts
On October 09 2012 12:00 rogzardo wrote: EDIT: and re-posting the same graph 3 times. And yet people continue to clamor for increased education spending. | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
that graph means nothing because teaching to raise SAT scores is a waste of time in the first place, so no way to tell whether that money is well spent this fetishization of the test score is what is destroying our educational system, not any of this nonsense over teacher budgets edit: the SAT is NOT a diagnostic of the worthwhileness of schools. edit: it's not even INTENDED to be a diagnostic of teaching. In fact, IT'S A FUCKING NORMALIZED TEST! LOL | ||
Falling
Canada11382 Posts
In any event teachers wages always make up the lion's share of the education budget and that's bound to go up from the 60's till now unless people propose to cap salaries at 1960's levels. | ||
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dvorakftw
681 Posts
On October 09 2012 12:22 sam!zdat wrote: So in the free market health crises are magically resolved very cheaply? Not magically. Scientifically. That is if you consider econo9mics a science. There's no reason for health insurance to be so different from home and car insurance except when you get to the few liberals honest enough to admit it's all about taking as much money as possible from healthy young people. | ||
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Deathmanbob
United States2356 Posts
On October 09 2012 11:16 sc2superfan101 wrote: then why do they make less money in the private sector? teachers make less in the private sector because they usually are not as qualified.... also you have a smaller work load to work at a private institution you do not need a degree, my gf went to a private HS and 3 of her teachers her jr year did not have a degree in what they were teaching. at a college level (atleast in california) you make more teaching at a JC because you have a larger work load than a university teacher does | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
On October 09 2012 12:56 Deathmanbob wrote: to work at a private institution you do not need a degree, my gf went to a private HS and 3 of her teachers her jr year did not have a degree in what they were teaching. It's high school. Why would you need a degree in that field to teach it? What were the subjects and the backgrounds of each of those teachers, and how long had they been teaching that subject? For example, no way you need a degree in mathematics to teach math. I have a degree in English and I could teach a high school history curriculum, for example, with a little prep time. AP government? I could teach that (lol, imagine me teaching american government) Maybe also they were bad teachers. There are certainly some of those. But just saying that it's bad they don't have a degree in that subject is silly. High school is just high school, teaching skill matters more than the subject (although of course expertise in a subject doesn't hurt, that's not my point) | ||
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Falling
Canada11382 Posts
On October 09 2012 12:56 Deathmanbob wrote: teachers make less in the private sector because they usually are not as qualified.... also you have a smaller work load to work at a private institution you do not need a degree, my gf went to a private HS and 3 of her teachers her jr year did not have a degree in what they were teaching. at a college level (atleast in california) you make more teaching at a JC because you have a larger work load than a university teacher does Not necessarily. You can get independent teacher's licences, but most private schools will prefer a proper teacher's certificate. Usually it's just budgetary concerns. Not all private schools cater to the posh crowd and so want to keep tuition relatively low. A consequence of that is teachers simply can't get paid as much as their union counterparts even with 50-60% funding coming from the government (in BC anyways). In my school, even cost of living is usually on the table as it's an easy thing to cut to make ends meet. | ||
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