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President Obama Re-Elected - Page 550

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Hey guys! We'll be closing this thread shortly, but we will make an American politics megathread where we can continue the discussions in here.

The new thread can be found here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383301
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-20 00:09:24
September 20 2012 00:07 GMT
#10981
I don't know, I kind of like that xDaunt is sticking to his guns, even if it baffles me. So many republicans are abandoning ship, like a bunch of sissies. xDaunt ain't no sissy.

Insurance by design is socialist. No matter how capitalist I am, I can't understand why we are trying to force insurance into a capitalist system. The whole point of insurance is that payers put money into a pot that gets distributed to the people that need it. The only reason it works at all is because the people that need it are a significant minority to the people that don't.

So in order to make insurance (in this case Health Insurance) capitalist, you have to impose all these ridiculous regulations on healthcare companies to prevent them from colluding and monopolizing. Then you have to include ridiculous regulations to make sure they don't screw over their customers. Like pre-existing conditions. The whole point is that they pay for you when you get sick. That's what we pay insurance companies for. And we have to make regulation that forces them to do their job? That's just stupid. Talk about government inefficiency.

You can't make health insurance work in capitalism because it isn't capitalist by design. Our health insurance industry isn't capitalist. It isn't socialist either. It's just stupid.
Defacer
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada5052 Posts
September 20 2012 00:11 GMT
#10982
On September 20 2012 09:03 DamnCats wrote:
Anyone else think regardless of what the polls say if legit war hero McCain and Miss Alaska couldn't beat Obama Romney and Romney Jr don't really stand a chance?


I think Romney's campaign has been exceptionally incompetent and he will lose. I think McCain would have had a better chance this year than four years ago, when he was fighting an uphill battle trying to win over undecided voters suffering from 8 years of Bush fatigue.

When notable die-hard Republicans strategists and figures such as Peggy Noonan, Bill Kristol and Rupert Murdoch are skeptical of your candidacy and campaign, you know you're in trouble.

As a side note, there is speculation that the reason Christie and Rubio didn't throw their hats in the ring during the primaries (which they could have won handily) was that they did not want to have to pander to the obstructionist-wing of their party or go up against Obama.




madsweepslol
Profile Joined February 2010
161 Posts
September 20 2012 00:13 GMT
#10983
On September 20 2012 05:14 SayGen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2012 04:56 EchOne wrote:
On September 20 2012 04:44 SayGen wrote:If I can take care of myself why can't you?

You can't take care of yourself. You can pay others to take care of you. No man alone has all the wherewithal in the world.


Your 100% right. I agree completly. I should be able to pay others to tkae care of me. Now i'm paying Obama 675$+ to deny me the full list of medical procedures I can get. Health Insurance DOES NOT COVER EVERYTHING. YOU CAN GET SICK AND DIE UNDER OBAMACARE.

If you have your own money put aside, that plus a signature loan can get you any procedure you ever need.

What's better between those 2?

Point, set, match?

Yeah, I'm sure your $300 a month covers more than Obamacare. In fact, I'm sure it covers everything, meaning on that $300/month you couldn't get sick and die. amiright??

...
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
September 20 2012 00:16 GMT
#10984
who was the republican vp choice last time? was it really palin?
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
September 20 2012 00:17 GMT
#10985
On September 20 2012 09:07 DoubleReed wrote:
I don't know, I kind of like that xDaunt is sticking to his guns, even if it baffles me. So many republicans are abandoning ship, like a bunch of sissies. xDaunt ain't no sissy.

Insurance by design is socialist. No matter how capitalist I am, I can't understand why we are trying to force insurance into a capitalist system. The whole point of insurance is that payers put money into a pot that gets distributed to the people that need it. The only reason it works at all is because the people that need it are a significant minority to the people that don't.

So in order to make insurance (in this case Health Insurance) capitalist, you have to impose all these ridiculous regulations on healthcare companies to prevent them from colluding and monopolizing. Then you have to include ridiculous regulations to make sure they don't screw over their customers. Like pre-existing conditions. The whole point is that they pay for you when you get sick. That's what we pay insurance companies for. And we have to make regulation that forces them to do their job? That's just stupid. Talk about government inefficiency.

You can't make health insurance work in capitalism because it isn't capitalist by design. Our health insurance industry isn't capitalist. It isn't socialist either. It's just stupid.

i have no idea what your definition of capitalist/socialist is from this post. i mean, what?
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Defacer
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada5052 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-20 00:24:43
September 20 2012 00:24 GMT
#10986
On September 20 2012 09:16 oneofthem wrote:
who was the republican vp choice last time? was it really palin?


YES. How can anyone not remember something so disastrous? It was McCain's Hail Mary -- and if Palin wasn't a complete nimrod, it would have worked.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
September 20 2012 00:33 GMT
#10987
i do remember it, but i thought that was not real.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Defacer
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada5052 Posts
September 20 2012 00:35 GMT
#10988
On September 20 2012 09:33 oneofthem wrote:
i do remember it, but i thought that was not real.


Just spin your totem dude. Spin away.
Shardz
Profile Joined August 2010
United States349 Posts
September 20 2012 00:37 GMT
#10989
Hmm, its hard to choose. Obama hasn't really done as much as I would have wanted when he was elected, but then again, I always had my doubts.

But I don't know if Romney will do any better, to be honest, he probably wont and I don't really have high expectations. I wish that a party with ideals in between republican and democrat would be able to win, but I don't think that is very probable. D=
Oh Hi
DamnCats
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1472 Posts
September 20 2012 00:37 GMT
#10990
On September 20 2012 09:35 Defacer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2012 09:33 oneofthem wrote:
i do remember it, but i thought that was not real.


Just spin your totem dude. Spin away.


In his defense she did seem a wee bit too easy to parody to be a legitimate VP candidate.
Disciples of a god, that neither lives nor breathes.
NeMeSiS3
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Canada2972 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-20 00:48:49
September 20 2012 00:45 GMT
#10991
On September 20 2012 07:51 ziggurat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2012 07:34 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
On September 20 2012 05:52 antelope591 wrote:
On September 20 2012 05:34 SayGen wrote:
On September 20 2012 05:24 Defacer wrote:
On September 20 2012 05:14 SayGen wrote:

Please don't ever mention Canadian HC again.
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/759760---danny-millions-williams-heads-south-for-heart-surgery


So what's your healthcare plan? For everyone to become millionaires and buy immortality?

You're confusing healthcare tourism for healthcare coverage and effectiveness. I can point to the endless amount of anecdotes from Americans that were flat-out denied coverage due to pre-existing conditions, or delayed or avoided healthcare they desperately needed because they couldn't afford it.

Canada's healthcare system is better than America's.
Canada's healthcare system is better than America's.
Canada's healthcare system is better than America's.

You should take that $300 you've been saving every month and consider moving to Canada. It would save that life of yours that Obama has destroyed.



Truth be told. I have to say ur right about ur little rant. Canada does NOW have a better HC system than America.

But HC pre Obama in America > X100000 Canada HC

I love the thought behind it UHC but it doens't work in the real world. Hard working people like me just got the shaft.
I will no longer be able to fund my own HC. If I get an Illness that isn't covered under OBAMACARE, I'm dead.
Least I can say I tried. I stood in oposition proudly.


Always funny when an American comments on Canadian health care with such authority when in fact they dont have a clue what theyre talking about.


: P He complains about minimal savings but if he was one of the multiple millions of people who got diagnosed with cancer and is being helped by this bill he wouldn't be bitching. "Yo I had to pay 7k for my arm, and then a couple hundred grand a year on cancer care. Can't believe this 675 a year fucking was spent!"

These are times I actually wish dire illness on someone so they can understand the anguish.

Many people who have used the Canadian healthcare system are not very happy with it. It is pretty good at providing semi-decent or "adequate" care to everybody, but it's well known that if you want to get the best care you have to travel to the US -- the article quoted abote if just one of countless examples.

The American healthcare system has major issues but I don't see it improving by moving towards a Canadian-style system.


Excuse me? Any major surgery can be operated on in Canada... "adequate"? I don't hear many civilians having issues getting healthcare. No it may take 4 hours to wait in line sometimes when you have the common cold because another patient got shot in the head and is more important than you at the moment and YES you may have to pay through taxation a small fee such that every Canadian can be given healhcare but I think waiting 4 hours is better then paying a massive premium. Medical emergencies are dealt with immediately also.

There is not some massive flooding of Canadians moving where do you hear this FOX?

http://www.denverpost.com/recommended/ci_12523427
+ Show Spoiler +
Myth: Taxes in Canada are extremely high, mostly because of national health care.

In actuality, taxes are nearly equal on both sides of the border. Overall, Canada's taxes are slightly higher than those in the U.S. However, Canadians are afforded many benefits for their tax dollars, even beyond health care (e.g., tax credits, family allowance, cheaper higher education), so the end result is a wash. At the end of the day, the average after-tax income of Canadian workers is equal to about 82 percent of their gross pay. In the U.S., that average is 81.9 percent.
Myth: Canada's health care system is a cumbersome bureaucracy.

The U.S. has the most bureaucratic health care system in the world. More than 31 percent of every dollar spent on health care in the U.S. goes to paperwork, overhead, CEO salaries, profits, etc. The provincial single-payer system in Canada operates with just a 1 percent overhead. Think about it. It is not necessary to spend a huge amount of money to decide who gets care and who doesn't when everybody is covered.

Myth: The Canadian system is significantly more expensive than that of the U.S.Ten percent of Canada's GDP is spent on health care for 100 percent of the population. The U.S. spends 17 percent of its GDP but 15 percent of its population has no coverage whatsoever and millions of others have inadequate coverage. In essence, the U.S. system is considerably more expensive than Canada's. Part of the reason for this is uninsured and underinsured people in the U.S. still get sick and eventually seek care. People who cannot afford care wait until advanced stages of an illness to see a doctor and then do so through emergency rooms, which cost considerably more than primary care services.

What the American taxpayer may not realize is that such care costs about $45 billion per year, and someone has to pay it. This is why insurance premiums increase every year for insured patients while co-pays and deductibles also rise rapidly.

Myth: Canada's government decides who gets health care and when they get it.While HMOs and other private medical insurers in the U.S. do indeed make such decisions, the only people in Canada to do so are physicians. In Canada, the government has absolutely no say in who gets care or how they get it. Medical decisions are left entirely up to doctors, as they should be.

There are no requirements for pre-authorization whatsoever. If your family doctor says you need an MRI, you get one. In the U.S., if an insurance administrator says you are not getting an MRI, you don't get one no matter what your doctor thinks — unless, of course, you have the money to cover the cost.

Myth: There are long waits for care, which compromise access to care.There are no waits for urgent or primary care in Canada. There are reasonable waits for most specialists' care, and much longer waits for elective surgery. Yes, there are those instances where a patient can wait up to a month for radiation therapy for breast cancer or prostate cancer, for example. However, the wait has nothing to do with money per se, but everything to do with the lack of radiation therapists. Despite such waits, however, it is noteworthy that Canada boasts lower incident and mortality rates than the U.S. for all cancers combined, according to the U.S. Cancer Statistics Working Group and the Canadian Cancer Society. Moreover, fewer Canadians (11.3 percent) than Americans (14.4 percent) admit unmet health care needs.

Myth: Canadians are paying out of pocket to come to the U.S. for medical care.Most patients who come from Canada to the U.S. for health care are those whose costs are covered by the Canadian governments. If a Canadian goes outside of the country to get services that are deemed medically necessary, not experimental, and are not available at home for whatever reason (e.g., shortage or absence of high tech medical equipment; a longer wait for service than is medically prudent; or lack of physician expertise), the provincial government where you live fully funds your care. Those patients who do come to the U.S. for care and pay out of pocket are those who perceive their care to be more urgent than it likely is.

Myth: Canada is a socialized health care system in which the government runs hospitals and where doctors work for the government.Princeton University health economist Uwe Reinhardt says single-payer systems are not "socialized medicine" but "social insurance" systems because doctors work in the private sector while their pay comes from a public source. Most physicians in Canada are self-employed. They are not employees of the government nor are they accountable to the government. Doctors are accountable to their patients only. More than 90 percent of physicians in Canada are paid on a fee-for-service basis. Claims are submitted to a single provincial health care plan for reimbursement, whereas in the U.S., claims are submitted to a multitude of insurance providers. Moreover, Canadian hospitals are controlled by private boards and/or regional health authorities rather than being part of or run by the government.

Myth: There aren't enough doctors in Canada.

From a purely statistical standpoint, there are enough physicians in Canada to meet the health care needs of its people. But most doctors practice in large urban areas, leaving rural areas with bona fide shortages. This situation is no different than that being experienced in the U.S. Simply training and employing more doctors is not likely to have any significant impact on this specific problem. Whatever issues there are with having an adequate number of doctors in any one geographical area, they have nothing to do with the single-payer system.


Canadian Health Care... Pretty bad right? American healthcare much more fair
FoTG fighting!
Souma
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
September 20 2012 00:49 GMT
#10992
On September 20 2012 09:45 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2012 07:51 ziggurat wrote:
On September 20 2012 07:34 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
On September 20 2012 05:52 antelope591 wrote:
On September 20 2012 05:34 SayGen wrote:
On September 20 2012 05:24 Defacer wrote:
On September 20 2012 05:14 SayGen wrote:

Please don't ever mention Canadian HC again.
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/759760---danny-millions-williams-heads-south-for-heart-surgery


So what's your healthcare plan? For everyone to become millionaires and buy immortality?

You're confusing healthcare tourism for healthcare coverage and effectiveness. I can point to the endless amount of anecdotes from Americans that were flat-out denied coverage due to pre-existing conditions, or delayed or avoided healthcare they desperately needed because they couldn't afford it.

Canada's healthcare system is better than America's.
Canada's healthcare system is better than America's.
Canada's healthcare system is better than America's.

You should take that $300 you've been saving every month and consider moving to Canada. It would save that life of yours that Obama has destroyed.



Truth be told. I have to say ur right about ur little rant. Canada does NOW have a better HC system than America.

But HC pre Obama in America > X100000 Canada HC

I love the thought behind it UHC but it doens't work in the real world. Hard working people like me just got the shaft.
I will no longer be able to fund my own HC. If I get an Illness that isn't covered under OBAMACARE, I'm dead.
Least I can say I tried. I stood in oposition proudly.


Always funny when an American comments on Canadian health care with such authority when in fact they dont have a clue what theyre talking about.


: P He complains about minimal savings but if he was one of the multiple millions of people who got diagnosed with cancer and is being helped by this bill he wouldn't be bitching. "Yo I had to pay 7k for my arm, and then a couple hundred grand a year on cancer care. Can't believe this 675 a year fucking was spent!"

These are times I actually wish dire illness on someone so they can understand the anguish.

Many people who have used the Canadian healthcare system are not very happy with it. It is pretty good at providing semi-decent or "adequate" care to everybody, but it's well known that if you want to get the best care you have to travel to the US -- the article quoted abote if just one of countless examples.

The American healthcare system has major issues but I don't see it improving by moving towards a Canadian-style system.


Excuse me? Any major surgery can be operated on in Canada... "adequate"? I don't hear many civilians having issues getting healthcare. No it may take 4 hours to wait in line sometimes when you have the common cold because another patient got shot in the head and is more important than you at the moment and YES you may have to pay through taxation a small fee such that every Canadian can be given healhcare but I think waiting 4 hours is better then paying a massive premium. Medical emergencies are dealt with immediately also.

There is not some massive flooding of Canadians moving where do you hear this FOX?

http://www.denverpost.com/recommended/ci_12523427
+ Show Spoiler +
Myth: Taxes in Canada are extremely high, mostly because of national health care.

In actuality, taxes are nearly equal on both sides of the border. Overall, Canada's taxes are slightly higher than those in the U.S. However, Canadians are afforded many benefits for their tax dollars, even beyond health care (e.g., tax credits, family allowance, cheaper higher education), so the end result is a wash. At the end of the day, the average after-tax income of Canadian workers is equal to about 82 percent of their gross pay. In the U.S., that average is 81.9 percent.
Myth: Canada's health care system is a cumbersome bureaucracy.

The U.S. has the most bureaucratic health care system in the world. More than 31 percent of every dollar spent on health care in the U.S. goes to paperwork, overhead, CEO salaries, profits, etc. The provincial single-payer system in Canada operates with just a 1 percent overhead. Think about it. It is not necessary to spend a huge amount of money to decide who gets care and who doesn't when everybody is covered.

Myth: The Canadian system is significantly more expensive than that of the U.S.Ten percent of Canada's GDP is spent on health care for 100 percent of the population. The U.S. spends 17 percent of its GDP but 15 percent of its population has no coverage whatsoever and millions of others have inadequate coverage. In essence, the U.S. system is considerably more expensive than Canada's. Part of the reason for this is uninsured and underinsured people in the U.S. still get sick and eventually seek care. People who cannot afford care wait until advanced stages of an illness to see a doctor and then do so through emergency rooms, which cost considerably more than primary care services.

What the American taxpayer may not realize is that such care costs about $45 billion per year, and someone has to pay it. This is why insurance premiums increase every year for insured patients while co-pays and deductibles also rise rapidly.

Myth: Canada's government decides who gets health care and when they get it.While HMOs and other private medical insurers in the U.S. do indeed make such decisions, the only people in Canada to do so are physicians. In Canada, the government has absolutely no say in who gets care or how they get it. Medical decisions are left entirely up to doctors, as they should be.

There are no requirements for pre-authorization whatsoever. If your family doctor says you need an MRI, you get one. In the U.S., if an insurance administrator says you are not getting an MRI, you don't get one no matter what your doctor thinks — unless, of course, you have the money to cover the cost.

Myth: There are long waits for care, which compromise access to care.There are no waits for urgent or primary care in Canada. There are reasonable waits for most specialists' care, and much longer waits for elective surgery. Yes, there are those instances where a patient can wait up to a month for radiation therapy for breast cancer or prostate cancer, for example. However, the wait has nothing to do with money per se, but everything to do with the lack of radiation therapists. Despite such waits, however, it is noteworthy that Canada boasts lower incident and mortality rates than the U.S. for all cancers combined, according to the U.S. Cancer Statistics Working Group and the Canadian Cancer Society. Moreover, fewer Canadians (11.3 percent) than Americans (14.4 percent) admit unmet health care needs.

Myth: Canadians are paying out of pocket to come to the U.S. for medical care.Most patients who come from Canada to the U.S. for health care are those whose costs are covered by the Canadian governments. If a Canadian goes outside of the country to get services that are deemed medically necessary, not experimental, and are not available at home for whatever reason (e.g., shortage or absence of high tech medical equipment; a longer wait for service than is medically prudent; or lack of physician expertise), the provincial government where you live fully funds your care. Those patients who do come to the U.S. for care and pay out of pocket are those who perceive their care to be more urgent than it likely is.

Myth: Canada is a socialized health care system in which the government runs hospitals and where doctors work for the government.Princeton University health economist Uwe Reinhardt says single-payer systems are not "socialized medicine" but "social insurance" systems because doctors work in the private sector while their pay comes from a public source. Most physicians in Canada are self-employed. They are not employees of the government nor are they accountable to the government. Doctors are accountable to their patients only. More than 90 percent of physicians in Canada are paid on a fee-for-service basis. Claims are submitted to a single provincial health care plan for reimbursement, whereas in the U.S., claims are submitted to a multitude of insurance providers. Moreover, Canadian hospitals are controlled by private boards and/or regional health authorities rather than being part of or run by the government.

Myth: There aren't enough doctors in Canada.

From a purely statistical standpoint, there are enough physicians in Canada to meet the health care needs of its people. But most doctors practice in large urban areas, leaving rural areas with bona fide shortages. This situation is no different than that being experienced in the U.S. Simply training and employing more doctors is not likely to have any significant impact on this specific problem. Whatever issues there are with having an adequate number of doctors in any one geographical area, they have nothing to do with the single-payer system.


Canadian Health Care... Pretty bad right? American healthcare much more fair


GIVE ME.
Writer
NeMeSiS3
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Canada2972 Posts
September 20 2012 00:53 GMT
#10993
On September 20 2012 09:49 Souma wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2012 09:45 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
On September 20 2012 07:51 ziggurat wrote:
On September 20 2012 07:34 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
On September 20 2012 05:52 antelope591 wrote:
On September 20 2012 05:34 SayGen wrote:
On September 20 2012 05:24 Defacer wrote:
On September 20 2012 05:14 SayGen wrote:

Please don't ever mention Canadian HC again.
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/759760---danny-millions-williams-heads-south-for-heart-surgery


So what's your healthcare plan? For everyone to become millionaires and buy immortality?

You're confusing healthcare tourism for healthcare coverage and effectiveness. I can point to the endless amount of anecdotes from Americans that were flat-out denied coverage due to pre-existing conditions, or delayed or avoided healthcare they desperately needed because they couldn't afford it.

Canada's healthcare system is better than America's.
Canada's healthcare system is better than America's.
Canada's healthcare system is better than America's.

You should take that $300 you've been saving every month and consider moving to Canada. It would save that life of yours that Obama has destroyed.



Truth be told. I have to say ur right about ur little rant. Canada does NOW have a better HC system than America.

But HC pre Obama in America > X100000 Canada HC

I love the thought behind it UHC but it doens't work in the real world. Hard working people like me just got the shaft.
I will no longer be able to fund my own HC. If I get an Illness that isn't covered under OBAMACARE, I'm dead.
Least I can say I tried. I stood in oposition proudly.


Always funny when an American comments on Canadian health care with such authority when in fact they dont have a clue what theyre talking about.


: P He complains about minimal savings but if he was one of the multiple millions of people who got diagnosed with cancer and is being helped by this bill he wouldn't be bitching. "Yo I had to pay 7k for my arm, and then a couple hundred grand a year on cancer care. Can't believe this 675 a year fucking was spent!"

These are times I actually wish dire illness on someone so they can understand the anguish.

Many people who have used the Canadian healthcare system are not very happy with it. It is pretty good at providing semi-decent or "adequate" care to everybody, but it's well known that if you want to get the best care you have to travel to the US -- the article quoted abote if just one of countless examples.

The American healthcare system has major issues but I don't see it improving by moving towards a Canadian-style system.


Excuse me? Any major surgery can be operated on in Canada... "adequate"? I don't hear many civilians having issues getting healthcare. No it may take 4 hours to wait in line sometimes when you have the common cold because another patient got shot in the head and is more important than you at the moment and YES you may have to pay through taxation a small fee such that every Canadian can be given healhcare but I think waiting 4 hours is better then paying a massive premium. Medical emergencies are dealt with immediately also.

There is not some massive flooding of Canadians moving where do you hear this FOX?

http://www.denverpost.com/recommended/ci_12523427
+ Show Spoiler +
Myth: Taxes in Canada are extremely high, mostly because of national health care.

In actuality, taxes are nearly equal on both sides of the border. Overall, Canada's taxes are slightly higher than those in the U.S. However, Canadians are afforded many benefits for their tax dollars, even beyond health care (e.g., tax credits, family allowance, cheaper higher education), so the end result is a wash. At the end of the day, the average after-tax income of Canadian workers is equal to about 82 percent of their gross pay. In the U.S., that average is 81.9 percent.
Myth: Canada's health care system is a cumbersome bureaucracy.

The U.S. has the most bureaucratic health care system in the world. More than 31 percent of every dollar spent on health care in the U.S. goes to paperwork, overhead, CEO salaries, profits, etc. The provincial single-payer system in Canada operates with just a 1 percent overhead. Think about it. It is not necessary to spend a huge amount of money to decide who gets care and who doesn't when everybody is covered.

Myth: The Canadian system is significantly more expensive than that of the U.S.Ten percent of Canada's GDP is spent on health care for 100 percent of the population. The U.S. spends 17 percent of its GDP but 15 percent of its population has no coverage whatsoever and millions of others have inadequate coverage. In essence, the U.S. system is considerably more expensive than Canada's. Part of the reason for this is uninsured and underinsured people in the U.S. still get sick and eventually seek care. People who cannot afford care wait until advanced stages of an illness to see a doctor and then do so through emergency rooms, which cost considerably more than primary care services.

What the American taxpayer may not realize is that such care costs about $45 billion per year, and someone has to pay it. This is why insurance premiums increase every year for insured patients while co-pays and deductibles also rise rapidly.

Myth: Canada's government decides who gets health care and when they get it.While HMOs and other private medical insurers in the U.S. do indeed make such decisions, the only people in Canada to do so are physicians. In Canada, the government has absolutely no say in who gets care or how they get it. Medical decisions are left entirely up to doctors, as they should be.

There are no requirements for pre-authorization whatsoever. If your family doctor says you need an MRI, you get one. In the U.S., if an insurance administrator says you are not getting an MRI, you don't get one no matter what your doctor thinks — unless, of course, you have the money to cover the cost.

Myth: There are long waits for care, which compromise access to care.There are no waits for urgent or primary care in Canada. There are reasonable waits for most specialists' care, and much longer waits for elective surgery. Yes, there are those instances where a patient can wait up to a month for radiation therapy for breast cancer or prostate cancer, for example. However, the wait has nothing to do with money per se, but everything to do with the lack of radiation therapists. Despite such waits, however, it is noteworthy that Canada boasts lower incident and mortality rates than the U.S. for all cancers combined, according to the U.S. Cancer Statistics Working Group and the Canadian Cancer Society. Moreover, fewer Canadians (11.3 percent) than Americans (14.4 percent) admit unmet health care needs.

Myth: Canadians are paying out of pocket to come to the U.S. for medical care.Most patients who come from Canada to the U.S. for health care are those whose costs are covered by the Canadian governments. If a Canadian goes outside of the country to get services that are deemed medically necessary, not experimental, and are not available at home for whatever reason (e.g., shortage or absence of high tech medical equipment; a longer wait for service than is medically prudent; or lack of physician expertise), the provincial government where you live fully funds your care. Those patients who do come to the U.S. for care and pay out of pocket are those who perceive their care to be more urgent than it likely is.

Myth: Canada is a socialized health care system in which the government runs hospitals and where doctors work for the government.Princeton University health economist Uwe Reinhardt says single-payer systems are not "socialized medicine" but "social insurance" systems because doctors work in the private sector while their pay comes from a public source. Most physicians in Canada are self-employed. They are not employees of the government nor are they accountable to the government. Doctors are accountable to their patients only. More than 90 percent of physicians in Canada are paid on a fee-for-service basis. Claims are submitted to a single provincial health care plan for reimbursement, whereas in the U.S., claims are submitted to a multitude of insurance providers. Moreover, Canadian hospitals are controlled by private boards and/or regional health authorities rather than being part of or run by the government.

Myth: There aren't enough doctors in Canada.

From a purely statistical standpoint, there are enough physicians in Canada to meet the health care needs of its people. But most doctors practice in large urban areas, leaving rural areas with bona fide shortages. This situation is no different than that being experienced in the U.S. Simply training and employing more doctors is not likely to have any significant impact on this specific problem. Whatever issues there are with having an adequate number of doctors in any one geographical area, they have nothing to do with the single-payer system.


Canadian Health Care... Pretty bad right? American healthcare much more fair


GIVE ME.


Back you back! this is evil socialist activities at work, caring for everyone is EVIL! Individualism > everything muahahahaha.
FoTG fighting!
radiatoren
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Denmark1907 Posts
September 20 2012 00:54 GMT
#10994
On September 20 2012 09:07 DoubleReed wrote:
I don't know, I kind of like that xDaunt is sticking to his guns, even if it baffles me. So many republicans are abandoning ship, like a bunch of sissies. xDaunt ain't no sissy.

Insurance by design is socialist. No matter how capitalist I am, I can't understand why we are trying to force insurance into a capitalist system. The whole point of insurance is that payers put money into a pot that gets distributed to the people that need it. The only reason it works at all is because the people that need it are a significant minority to the people that don't.

So in order to make insurance (in this case Health Insurance) capitalist, you have to impose all these ridiculous regulations on healthcare companies to prevent them from colluding and monopolizing. Then you have to include ridiculous regulations to make sure they don't screw over their customers. Like pre-existing conditions. The whole point is that they pay for you when you get sick. That's what we pay insurance companies for. And we have to make regulation that forces them to do their job? That's just stupid. Talk about government inefficiency.

You can't make health insurance work in capitalism because it isn't capitalist by design. Our health insurance industry isn't capitalist. It isn't socialist either. It's just stupid.

Insurance or pooled risk as it can also be called is normal on Wall Street and in several private industries. It is a way to avoid going bancrupt if you are unlucky. It might sound "socialist" to you, but it is extremely common in the capitalist world we live in. Most people just want to make a stable and acceptable income, so they take the fluctuations of income out of the equation, by letting others carry the risk and paying them for it.

The regulation from government side on health care insurrance seems like a step into the area between universal healthcare and completely individual healthcare and it does not seem like the optimal long-term solution. The only problem is that neither is true universal healthcare or individual healthcare. I am pretty sure that a regulated market is still a market and it is often better than a monopoly. A truely free market is not something many people believe in as the solution because of the consequences of risk-taking in some industries, the predatory business practices of others and the collution and price-fixing in some of the most mature markets.
Repeat before me
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
September 20 2012 00:57 GMT
#10995
Most republican and conservative figures are pussies. They give too much of a shit about what liberals think about them rather than unapologetically preach what they believe. Because of this, republicans are far more prone to unnecessarily throwing each other under the bus and engaging in circular firing squads than democrats. This business with Romney and his 47% comments is no different.
Focuspants
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada780 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-20 01:00:29
September 20 2012 00:59 GMT
#10996
On September 20 2012 09:45 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2012 07:51 ziggurat wrote:
On September 20 2012 07:34 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
On September 20 2012 05:52 antelope591 wrote:
On September 20 2012 05:34 SayGen wrote:
On September 20 2012 05:24 Defacer wrote:
On September 20 2012 05:14 SayGen wrote:

Please don't ever mention Canadian HC again.
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/759760---danny-millions-williams-heads-south-for-heart-surgery


So what's your healthcare plan? For everyone to become millionaires and buy immortality?

You're confusing healthcare tourism for healthcare coverage and effectiveness. I can point to the endless amount of anecdotes from Americans that were flat-out denied coverage due to pre-existing conditions, or delayed or avoided healthcare they desperately needed because they couldn't afford it.

Canada's healthcare system is better than America's.
Canada's healthcare system is better than America's.
Canada's healthcare system is better than America's.

You should take that $300 you've been saving every month and consider moving to Canada. It would save that life of yours that Obama has destroyed.



Truth be told. I have to say ur right about ur little rant. Canada does NOW have a better HC system than America.

But HC pre Obama in America > X100000 Canada HC

I love the thought behind it UHC but it doens't work in the real world. Hard working people like me just got the shaft.
I will no longer be able to fund my own HC. If I get an Illness that isn't covered under OBAMACARE, I'm dead.
Least I can say I tried. I stood in oposition proudly.


Always funny when an American comments on Canadian health care with such authority when in fact they dont have a clue what theyre talking about.


: P He complains about minimal savings but if he was one of the multiple millions of people who got diagnosed with cancer and is being helped by this bill he wouldn't be bitching. "Yo I had to pay 7k for my arm, and then a couple hundred grand a year on cancer care. Can't believe this 675 a year fucking was spent!"

These are times I actually wish dire illness on someone so they can understand the anguish.

Many people who have used the Canadian healthcare system are not very happy with it. It is pretty good at providing semi-decent or "adequate" care to everybody, but it's well known that if you want to get the best care you have to travel to the US -- the article quoted abote if just one of countless examples.

The American healthcare system has major issues but I don't see it improving by moving towards a Canadian-style system.


Excuse me? Any major surgery can be operated on in Canada... "adequate"? I don't hear many civilians having issues getting healthcare. No it may take 4 hours to wait in line sometimes when you have the common cold because another patient got shot in the head and is more important than you at the moment and YES you may have to pay through taxation a small fee such that every Canadian can be given healhcare but I think waiting 4 hours is better then paying a massive premium. Medical emergencies are dealt with immediately also.

There is not some massive flooding of Canadians moving where do you hear this FOX?

http://www.denverpost.com/recommended/ci_12523427
+ Show Spoiler +
Myth: Taxes in Canada are extremely high, mostly because of national health care.

In actuality, taxes are nearly equal on both sides of the border. Overall, Canada's taxes are slightly higher than those in the U.S. However, Canadians are afforded many benefits for their tax dollars, even beyond health care (e.g., tax credits, family allowance, cheaper higher education), so the end result is a wash. At the end of the day, the average after-tax income of Canadian workers is equal to about 82 percent of their gross pay. In the U.S., that average is 81.9 percent.
Myth: Canada's health care system is a cumbersome bureaucracy.

The U.S. has the most bureaucratic health care system in the world. More than 31 percent of every dollar spent on health care in the U.S. goes to paperwork, overhead, CEO salaries, profits, etc. The provincial single-payer system in Canada operates with just a 1 percent overhead. Think about it. It is not necessary to spend a huge amount of money to decide who gets care and who doesn't when everybody is covered.

Myth: The Canadian system is significantly more expensive than that of the U.S.Ten percent of Canada's GDP is spent on health care for 100 percent of the population. The U.S. spends 17 percent of its GDP but 15 percent of its population has no coverage whatsoever and millions of others have inadequate coverage. In essence, the U.S. system is considerably more expensive than Canada's. Part of the reason for this is uninsured and underinsured people in the U.S. still get sick and eventually seek care. People who cannot afford care wait until advanced stages of an illness to see a doctor and then do so through emergency rooms, which cost considerably more than primary care services.

What the American taxpayer may not realize is that such care costs about $45 billion per year, and someone has to pay it. This is why insurance premiums increase every year for insured patients while co-pays and deductibles also rise rapidly.

Myth: Canada's government decides who gets health care and when they get it.While HMOs and other private medical insurers in the U.S. do indeed make such decisions, the only people in Canada to do so are physicians. In Canada, the government has absolutely no say in who gets care or how they get it. Medical decisions are left entirely up to doctors, as they should be.

There are no requirements for pre-authorization whatsoever. If your family doctor says you need an MRI, you get one. In the U.S., if an insurance administrator says you are not getting an MRI, you don't get one no matter what your doctor thinks — unless, of course, you have the money to cover the cost.

Myth: There are long waits for care, which compromise access to care.There are no waits for urgent or primary care in Canada. There are reasonable waits for most specialists' care, and much longer waits for elective surgery. Yes, there are those instances where a patient can wait up to a month for radiation therapy for breast cancer or prostate cancer, for example. However, the wait has nothing to do with money per se, but everything to do with the lack of radiation therapists. Despite such waits, however, it is noteworthy that Canada boasts lower incident and mortality rates than the U.S. for all cancers combined, according to the U.S. Cancer Statistics Working Group and the Canadian Cancer Society. Moreover, fewer Canadians (11.3 percent) than Americans (14.4 percent) admit unmet health care needs.

Myth: Canadians are paying out of pocket to come to the U.S. for medical care.Most patients who come from Canada to the U.S. for health care are those whose costs are covered by the Canadian governments. If a Canadian goes outside of the country to get services that are deemed medically necessary, not experimental, and are not available at home for whatever reason (e.g., shortage or absence of high tech medical equipment; a longer wait for service than is medically prudent; or lack of physician expertise), the provincial government where you live fully funds your care. Those patients who do come to the U.S. for care and pay out of pocket are those who perceive their care to be more urgent than it likely is.

Myth: Canada is a socialized health care system in which the government runs hospitals and where doctors work for the government.Princeton University health economist Uwe Reinhardt says single-payer systems are not "socialized medicine" but "social insurance" systems because doctors work in the private sector while their pay comes from a public source. Most physicians in Canada are self-employed. They are not employees of the government nor are they accountable to the government. Doctors are accountable to their patients only. More than 90 percent of physicians in Canada are paid on a fee-for-service basis. Claims are submitted to a single provincial health care plan for reimbursement, whereas in the U.S., claims are submitted to a multitude of insurance providers. Moreover, Canadian hospitals are controlled by private boards and/or regional health authorities rather than being part of or run by the government.

Myth: There aren't enough doctors in Canada.

From a purely statistical standpoint, there are enough physicians in Canada to meet the health care needs of its people. But most doctors practice in large urban areas, leaving rural areas with bona fide shortages. This situation is no different than that being experienced in the U.S. Simply training and employing more doctors is not likely to have any significant impact on this specific problem. Whatever issues there are with having an adequate number of doctors in any one geographical area, they have nothing to do with the single-payer system.


Canadian Health Care... Pretty bad right? American healthcare much more fair



Good article for outlining our system in every-day language. Read this please. Its funny because it is so much more "free" of a system than the American one, and government intrusion is what the opponents of universal healthcare complain about. Doctors are the authority here. They make the decisions. The government, insurance companies, nobody but your doctor and yourself have the ability to direct your care.
Souma
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
September 20 2012 01:03 GMT
#10997
On September 20 2012 09:57 xDaunt wrote:
Most republican and conservative figures are pussies. They give too much of a shit about what liberals think about them rather than unapologetically preach what they believe. Because of this, republicans are far more prone to unnecessarily throwing each other under the bus and engaging in circular firing squads than democrats. This business with Romney and his 47% comments is no different.


The 47% comment is different, considering a large chunk of that 47% votes Republican, are elderly, or are soldiers currently deployed.
Writer
rogzardo
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
610 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-20 01:15:27
September 20 2012 01:07 GMT
#10998
nuke
Voltaire
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1485 Posts
September 20 2012 01:10 GMT
#10999
On September 20 2012 10:03 Souma wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2012 09:57 xDaunt wrote:
Most republican and conservative figures are pussies. They give too much of a shit about what liberals think about them rather than unapologetically preach what they believe. Because of this, republicans are far more prone to unnecessarily throwing each other under the bus and engaging in circular firing squads than democrats. This business with Romney and his 47% comments is no different.


The 47% comment is different, considering a large chunk of that 47% votes Republican, are elderly, or are soldiers currently deployed.


Given that less than 1% of the US population is currently in the military, the number deployed is negligible.
As long as people believe in absurdities they will continue to commit atrocities.
BluePanther
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2776 Posts
September 20 2012 01:13 GMT
#11000
On September 20 2012 08:43 xDaunt wrote:
It looks like voters are finally starting to notice the Obama administration's bungling with what is going on in the Middle East.

Show nested quote +
(CNSNews.com) – The first opinion poll to be conducted after last week’s deadly attack on a U.S. consulate in Libya and a spate of anti-American protests across the Muslim world has recorded a five-point drop in approval for President Obama’s handling of foreign policy.

The NBC/Wall Street Journal poll released Tuesday found the president’s foreign policy approval among registered voters at 49 percent, down from 54 percent one month earlier.

“The fall was steeper among independents, going from 53 percent in August to 41 percent,” NBC reported.


Source.

I tend to think that this drop in approval is a reflection on Obama's week long stupidity of insisting that the Libya attacks were not premeditated.


More like voters are just uninformed, tbh.
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