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Hey guys! We'll be closing this thread shortly, but we will make an American politics megathread where we can continue the discussions in here. The new thread can be found here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383301 | ||
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SayGen
United States1209 Posts
On September 20 2012 05:52 antelope591 wrote: Always funny when an American comments on Canadian health care with such authority when in fact they dont have a clue what theyre talking about. http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/759760---danny-millions-williams-heads-south-for-heart-surgery | ||
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Elegance
Canada917 Posts
On September 20 2012 05:57 SayGen wrote: http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/759760---danny-millions-williams-heads-south-for-heart-surgery that article doesn't mean shit. And I believe another poster addressed the motives of this guy going to the US for surgery. You think you know what its like up here? do you live here? Every Canadian poster here has said they loved the health care provided here. You know, COMMON FOLK. You think we give a shit about some millionaire getting surgery from one of the best heart surgeons? | ||
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ZasZ.
United States2911 Posts
On September 20 2012 05:27 SayGen wrote: Yes, I had to pay 7000$ for braking my left arm. now lets do some math. 23 years old. 300$ put aside since 18. 5 years=60Months 60X300= 18000 18000-7000= 1100 extra. NOT INCLUDING the TAX FREE intrest i've gained while holding onto my HC account. Wait, you had to pay $7000 out of pocket to repair a broken arm? And you think your system of saving your own money for health expenses is better than a standard health insurance plan? I'd say keep on trucking, but fortunately (for you) the government has actually steered you in the right direction this time. | ||
Falling
Canada11607 Posts
On September 20 2012 05:57 SayGen wrote: http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/759760---danny-millions-williams-heads-south-for-heart-surgery Yeah you already posted that and people argued why that was a silly example. Don't just spam links with no commentary and think you're contributing to discussion. | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
On September 20 2012 05:55 SayGen wrote: Thanks for adding to the conversation in a meaningful way- I'll be happy to address your concerns. I wish I could give you the example you asked for but 10,000 pages of Obamacare written in a legal-speak language the vast majoirty of Americans can not understand prevents me from doing this. This also greatly concerned me: So much for government transparency. I do know, based off of GOP primary presidential debates that took place that there are procedures that arn't covered, including procedures that are determined 'optional' like a bullet stuck in your chest that can remain lodged there for the rest of your life. Last I checked, even if you could take a tetnis shot to prevent the soon-to-be rusted bullet from killing you, shouldn't I have some say if I want a bullet in my chest for the rest of my life? Why not let me tap into the 1100 dollars I got, plus a signature loan and have the procedure done. I'm aware of how much 7000$ is. I gladly paid it. Remember 675$/month is more expensive than the 7000$ I spent on my broken arm. I ran the math in a previous post. The middleclass is struggling, cause of MASSIVE debt (Thanks Obama) and increased taxiation (675+/month) extra. Thanks for the well wishes, but I'm pretty sure i'm just screwed. My God do I hate Romney (totally different reasons) but in this case he is the lesser of 2 evils. Least he won't raise my taxes 675+, and give me a little more control back of my life. Your bullet situation is a bad example. I really skeptical of it as a premise, but I'll bite and explain why. Healthcare in the US is still provided by private healthcare providers. So if you really want that bullet out, you can probably pay the extra fee to have it removed, as you so desire. Meanwhile, your health insurance would likely cover any that is actually life-threatening and would cost way more than $1100. And there is nothing saying, that under the system prior Obamacare, that insurers wouldn't have deny coverage for your comestic bullet surgery any way. | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
On September 20 2012 06:05 Falling wrote: Yeah you already posted that and people argued why that was a silly example. Don't just spam links with no commentary and think you're contributing to discussion. That link IS his totem. Spam, SayGen, spam. Spam that link until you wake up from this nightmare world where Canadians exist. | ||
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antelope591
Canada820 Posts
On September 20 2012 05:57 SayGen wrote: http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/759760---danny-millions-williams-heads-south-for-heart-surgery Pretty sure everyone knows the US system is better for the rich. Although I doubt ur too rich tourself considering all the crying about a minor tax increase. However I don't see any actual Canadians in here complaining about our health care system. I know me or my family never had any issues getting care when we needed it. But you seem to enjoy living in ignorance so Ill leave you to it. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22679 Posts
Your government is saving you from your own stupidity. Be damn glad it does cause you sure arnt seeing it. | ||
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Focuspants
Canada780 Posts
1 rich guy decides to go to a leading surgeon for a specific surgery, who happens to be located in the US, therefore the Canadian health care system sucks. Even after the very same guy says he has full confidence in our system and wouldnt want it to be changed, it still sucks. All of these numbers showing better results, lower costs, greater availability, etc... are all lies. The US system is definitely better. | ||
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ZasZ.
United States2911 Posts
On September 20 2012 05:55 SayGen wrote: Thanks for adding to the conversation in a meaningful way- I'll be happy to address your concerns. I wish I could give you the example you asked for but 10,000 pages of Obamacare written in a legal-speak language the vast majoirty of Americans can not understand prevents me from doing this. This also greatly concerned me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV-05TLiiLU So much for government transparency. I do know, based off of GOP primary presidential debates that took place that there are procedures that arn't covered, including procedures that are determined 'optional' like a bullet stuck in your chest that can remain lodged there for the rest of your life. Last I checked, even if you could take a tetnis shot to prevent the soon-to-be rusted bullet from killing you, shouldn't I have some say if I want a bullet in my chest for the rest of my life? Why not let me tap into the 1100 dollars I got, plus a signature loan and have the procedure done. I'm aware of how much 7000$ is. I gladly paid it. Remember 675$/month is more expensive than the 7000$ I spent on my broken arm. I ran the math in a previous post. The middleclass is struggling, cause of MASSIVE debt (Thanks Obama) and increased taxiation (675+/month) extra. Thanks for the well wishes, but I'm pretty sure i'm just screwed. My God do I hate Romney (totally different reasons) but in this case he is the lesser of 2 evils. Least he won't raise my taxes 675+, and give me a little more control back of my life. If Fox News is your source for information, I'm starting to see the problem here. There are few unbiased options (for either party), but that has to be one of the worst ones. Maybe I'm missing something, but how will Obamacare tax you an additional $675 a month? Is it because you refuse to get health insurance or because that is what it will cost you to get health insurance? I realize I am fortunate with my benefits package at work, and pay nothing out of pocket for my health insurance, but I have never heard of anybody paying that kind of rate for health insurance. But if it's because you don't want health insurance, even when it could save you money in the long-term (like for that broken arm), I don't really know what to tell you. Any amount of money you can put aside for a "rainy-day" healthcare pool will not be enough to cover the rainiest of days, and then you really will be dead. Just ask any cancer survivor without health insurance how much it cost them out-of-pocket (hint: there probably aren't any). | ||
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Elegance
Canada917 Posts
On September 20 2012 06:05 Defacer wrote: Your bullet situation is a bad example. I really skeptical of it as a premise, but I'll bite and explain why. Healthcare in the US is still provided by private healthcare providers. So if you really want that bullet out, you can probably pay the extra fee to have it removed, as you so desire. Meanwhile, your health insurance would likely cover any that is actually life-threatening and would cost way more than $1100. And there is nothing saying, that under the system prior Obamacare, that insurers wouldn't have deny coverage for your comestic bullet surgery any way. + Show Spoiler + Actually, depending on the situation (if I'm understanding this correctly), bullets can be left in and rarely causes problems. The risk of doing a procedure (infections, blood loss etc.) far outweigh the risks of leaving the bullet in. | ||
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farvacola
United States18870 Posts
An internal report by the Justice Department found no evidence that Attorney General Eric Holder knew about a botched gun-trafficking operation to Mexico, but does recommend that 14 federal law enforcement officials, including the head of the criminal division, be disciplined. In the wake of the report, Deputy Assistant Attorney General Jason Weinstein, a longtime career prosecutor who most recently served in the criminal division, has resigned and the former acting director at the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has retired, effective immediately. Source | ||
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SayGen
United States1209 Posts
On September 20 2012 05:53 sevencck wrote: The free market will charge whatever it can get away with to provide (possibly excellent) healthcare to those who can afford it. The free market will deny health insurance to those in need if it projects a loss. In fact, the free market would happily deny medical services to those it believes can't pay (in fact that's illegal, which is an important preexisting marketplace regulation per healthcare). Mandated health insurance as it stands isn't likely the fully realized vision of American health care, but it's an excellent start. Healthcare (that is society's ability/willingness to care for it's sick/dying/injured), will no longer be guided by shareholders and their pursuit of the almighty dollar. Moral imperative should never be dicated by someone's vision of ecnomic necessity. The market can no longer deny health insurance to those in need. People in need will no longer mortgage their future to get the treatment they require. You must have medical coverage (frankly, this is especially beneficial for those short-sighted enough to believe they will never need it). This system allows the nation to cheaply provide medical services to everyone. Aren't you legally required to buy car insurance? How do you think that works? In other words, what was before a failure on the part of the free market to speak to the medical needs of Americans has now been remedied by market regulation. The free market can't deny services if it projects a loss. The free market also happily accepts govt. subsidies and tax writeoffs. Yes, taxes have always helped finance medicine generally. People already pay taxes to finance hospitals etc. But I guess those facilities are only there to help the rich? Finally, senate democrats accepted 161 Republican amendments to the healthcare reform bill. How do you know you aren't really just complaining about one of those? Great post, I do some a few quams. Allow me to explain. You said HC will deny someone with a preexisting condition. I have heard of this many times, and it makes sense. Why insure someone who won't be able to put in what they take out. I see nothing wrong with this. A society who accepts people who drain more than they add, never prosper in the long run. I realize the idea of "More taxes" is a great solution when you see it as someone elses money- but really the fact is, it will run out. (see nationdebtclock.org) Should we cut funding to research centers, and libs? Should we cut more from education to pay for HC? If you add drains to society we all suffer. We all pay. We pay with a less educated population. We pay in more taxes (in my case 675$ more). I only want people to carry their weight best they can. Those that fall and struggle should tap into a rainy day fund like I did when I broke my arm. Also there is charity, people give MILLIONS away (look at Bill Gates who has GIVEN BILLIONS). I'm not saying I want people to roll over and die, of course that's cruel. But we should be expected to give of ourselves before asking others for help. I thought until recently that was a universial belief. Forcing a tax hike htat massive on the American people during a recession is a BAD idea. (I can source numerious economist if you'd like) Also you brought up car insurance. I'm glad you did. In fact you just made my point for me, thanks for bringing that up. Can you choose to drive? Yes. Can you choose to by UHC? No. Thanks for that one. As for your final point, I wish I could know but again 10,000 pages of legal-speak isn't something the vast majority of Americans can read. (myself included) | ||
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ZasZ.
United States2911 Posts
On September 20 2012 06:08 Gorsameth wrote: The sad part is people like SayGen will only realize the error of there ways when they are confronted by a bill they cannot pay. When any of the thousands of afflictions that can happen to any of us at any time strike them and leave them dead/dying or penny less. And then they look up at the rest of the world and see that maybe, just maybe, they were wrong. except by now its to late. Your government is saving you from your own stupidity. Be damn glad it does cause you sure arnt seeing it. No the sad part is that even at that point they still don't realize they were wrong. They blame the government for pigeonholing them into that position in the first place until their dying breath. | ||
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SayGen
United States1209 Posts
probably pay the extra fee to have it removed, as you so desire. What extra money? I can't save the 300 anymore cause Obama taxed it all After he said he wouldn't--again he lied | ||
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coverpunch
United States2093 Posts
For one, immigration. Canada only borders the US so it can essentially pick and choose who it allows to immigrate, granting about 250,000 permanent residencies per year. By contrast, the US grants about a million green cards per year and estimates a million people immigrate illegally. Secondly, Canada's system is good for mundane, everyday problems. I would make the analogy to saying the government should give everyone cell phones. Well, everyone in the US wants the Galaxy S3 and the iPhone 5. Canada doles out free flip phones. It's fine for doing all the things a cell phone is supposed to do. This is part of the problem in the US though. Perversely, technological benefits don't pass costs savings to consumers because Americans demand health care on the cutting edge, which is extremely expensive. But that's only for serious medical issues. The final difference is the strange state of insurance companies in the US. Note that Obamacare treats people who don't buy insurance as free-loaders, not victims. They're part of the problem because if I go to the hospital for a broken arm and use my insurance to cover the cost, the hospital charges me much more because I also have to cover the risk that SayGen doesn't pay. Universal health care works if it's like a giant gym membership where everyone pays but most people never use it, which is exactly what Obamacare is trying to do by forcing young, healthy people to buy insurance but not go to the doctor (or go when they have a small problem, not wait until it turns into a disaster they can't afford). | ||
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SayGen
United States1209 Posts
On September 20 2012 05:59 Elegance wrote: that article doesn't mean shit. And I believe another poster addressed the motives of this guy going to the US for surgery. You think you know what its like up here? do you live here? Every Canadian poster here has said they loved the health care provided here. You know, COMMON FOLK. You think we give a shit about some millionaire getting surgery from one of the best heart surgeons? And over 50%+ (some polls high as 66%) said they would perfer the current system here in US. Why are you pushing so hard that US has the same plan as you? Agenda? | ||
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Focuspants
Canada780 Posts
On September 20 2012 06:11 SayGen wrote: Great post, I do some a few quams. Allow me to explain. You said HC will deny someone with a preexisting condition. I have heard of this many times, and it makes sense. Why insure someone who won't be able to put in what they take out. I see nothing wrong with this. A society who accepts people who drain more than they add, never prosper in the long run. I realize the idea of "More taxes" is a great solution when you see it as someone elses money- but really the fact is, it will run out. (see nationdebtclock.org) Should we cut funding to research centers, and libs? Should we cut more from education to pay for HC? If you add drains to society we all suffer. We all pay. We pay with a less educated population. We pay in more taxes (in my case 675$ more). I only want people to carry their weight best they can. Those that fall and struggle should tap into a rainy day fund like I did when I broke my arm. Also there is charity, people give MILLIONS away (look at Bill Gates who has GIVEN BILLIONS). I'm not saying I want people to roll over and die, of course that's cruel. But we should be expected to give of ourselves before asking others for help. I thought until recently that was a universial belief. Forcing a tax hike htat massive on the American people during a recession is a BAD idea. (I can source numerious economist if you'd like) Also you brought up car insurance. I'm glad you did. In fact you just made my point for me, thanks for bringing that up. Can you choose to drive? Yes. Can you choose to by UHC? No. Thanks for that one. As for your final point, I wish I could know but again 10,000 pages of legal-speak isn't something the vast majority of Americans can read. (myself included) For there to be rich, there have to be poor, by definition. It is impossible for an entire society to all put in more than they take. Like, actually 100% impossible. Is it better to allow the top earners to thrive by creating an expensive system only they can afford, or to create a system where costs are kept low by distributing them evenly amongst everyone, so that everyone has the ability to receive care. By your logic, the single mother with 3 kids who works two jobs just to scrape by deserves to die because she cant afford to put into the system what the son of a millionaire or billionaire could by inheritence. Its this disgusting selfish attitude that holds your society back.Its always about "me" and how "I" get ahead. All that matters is whats good for you, until the shortsightedness of your outlook catches up with you and you, your wife, your child, etc... die because you cant afford a procedure that would have saved their life. You talk about being an American, but act like a selfish individual. A country is built by people. You cant succeed on your own. Society should aim to preserve, and advance itself unselfishly. You are helping the same people that are helping you. Greed is disgusting, and there is no worse philosophy to live by than the one you choose to have. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22679 Posts
On September 20 2012 06:11 SayGen wrote: Great post, I do some a few quams. Allow me to explain. You said HC will deny someone with a preexisting condition. I have heard of this many times, and it makes sense. Why insure someone who won't be able to put in what they take out. I see nothing wrong with this. A society who accepts people who drain more than they add, never prosper in the long run. I realize the idea of "More taxes" is a great solution when you see it as someone elses money- but really the fact is, it will run out. (see nationdebtclock.org) Should we cut funding to research centers, and libs? Should we cut more from education to pay for HC? If you add drains to society we all suffer. We all pay. We pay with a less educated population. We pay in more taxes (in my case 675$ more). I only want people to carry their weight best they can. Those that fall and struggle should tap into a rainy day fund like I did when I broke my arm. Also there is charity, people give MILLIONS away (look at Bill Gates who has GIVEN BILLIONS). I'm not saying I want people to roll over and die, of course that's cruel. But we should be expected to give of ourselves before asking others for help. I thought until recently that was a universial belief. Forcing a tax hike htat massive on the American people during a recession is a BAD idea. (I can source numerious economist if you'd like) Also you brought up car insurance. I'm glad you did. In fact you just made my point for me, thanks for bringing that up. Can you choose to drive? Yes. Can you choose to by UHC? No. Thanks for that one. As for your final point, I wish I could know but again 10,000 pages of legal-speak isn't something the vast majority of Americans can read. (myself included) Tap into your Rainy day fund? 2 days from now you get hit by a drunk driver. You break both your legs and an arm. he is uninsured (yeah maybe its illegal. doesnt mean there are still not a ton of uninsured people) You now own a hospital 21.000 while you have only 11.000 in your little fund. Assuming they even fix you up before checking your credit rating. You now own someone 10.000 and while paying that back at your 300 a month you cant save up for another rainy day. Your fucked. Enjoy life and pray you dont have any accidents for the next 20 years cause if you do oh boy... | ||
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coverpunch
United States2093 Posts
On September 20 2012 06:10 farvacola wrote: In other news, a nice little victory for the Obama administration has taken shape as Eric Holder has been vindicated in the "Fast and Furious" investigation, at least according to an internal DOJ report. Source Yes, we're so lucky that the Obama administration has Enron'd the highest levels of government. So if you're an idiot and don't know your staff is cooking up a problem, then you don't have to take any responsibility for it. But it is interesting they offered up a scalp anyways. | ||
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