EPTWhatever Canadians may feel about the current state of Canadian healthcare and its problems, you're unlikely to find many who would espouse tearing it down and rebuilding it in the American image.
President Obama Re-Elected - Page 436
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Hey guys! We'll be closing this thread shortly, but we will make an American politics megathread where we can continue the discussions in here. The new thread can be found here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383301 | ||
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sevencck
Canada704 Posts
Whatever Canadians may feel about the current state of Canadian healthcare and its problems, you're unlikely to find many who would espouse tearing it down and rebuilding it in the American image. | ||
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fofa2000
Canada548 Posts
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Vardant
Czech Republic620 Posts
Money isn't the issue in this case, the biggest problem lies with the insurance companies, which made the health care unaffordable for everybody in the first place. Also, the pre-existing condition was the biggest BS ever, but that should be taken care of by 2014 afaik. | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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Trezeguet
United States2656 Posts
On September 06 2012 14:47 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Well Romney's response to Clinton's speech was, well, pathetic. Content aside, he was even fighting an uphill charisma battle from the start. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
An explosive mix of dysfunction, miscommunication, and misunderstandings inside and outside the White House led to the collapse of a historic spending and debt deal that President Obama and House Speaker John Boehner were on the verge of reaching last summer, according to revelations in author Bob Woodward's latest book. The book, "The Price of Politics," on sale Sept. 11, 2012, shows how close the president and the House speaker were to defying Washington odds and establishing a spending framework that included both new revenues and major changes to long-sacred entitlement programs. For those who don't know, Woodward is one of the most respected journalists in Washington -- in no small part for being one of the guys to bust Nixon in Watergate. While questions persist about whether any grand bargain reached by the principals could have actually passed in the Tea Party-dominated Congress, Woodward issues a harsh judgment on White House and congressional leaders for failing to act boldly at a moment of crisis. Particular blame falls on the president. "It was increasingly clear that no one was running Washington. That was trouble for everyone, but especially for Obama," Woodward writes. Ouch. With the president taking charge, though, Obama found that he had little history with members of Congress to draw on. His administration's early decision to forego bipartisanship for the sake of speed around the stimulus bill was encapsulated by his then-chief of staff, Rahm Emanuel: "We have the votes. F--- 'em," he's quoted in the book as saying. Yep. Exactly what republicans have been complaining about for years. Obama talks compromise but never actually does it. Before this part, you can read some excerpts concerning the debt talks from 2011. It seems that even Biden was unhappy with how Obama was handling the negotiations. It should also be noted that Boehner had problems with his caucus, which we already knew (for the record, I think Boehner is a clown). Obama's relationship with Democrats wasn't always much better. Woodward recounts an episode early in his presidency when then-House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid were hammering out final details of the stimulus bill. Obama phoned in to deliver a "high-minded message," he writes. Obama went on so long that Pelosi "reached over and pressed the mute button on her phone," so they could continue to work without the president hearing that they weren't paying attention. I find this more hilarious than anything else. However, it does corroborate reports that Obama is incredibly egotistical. Moving on.... As debt negotiations progressed, Democrats complained of being out of the loop, not knowing where the White House stood on major points. Rep. Chris Van Hollen, D-Md., the ranking Democrat on the House Budget Committee, is described as having a "growing feeling of incredulity" as negotiations meandered. "The administration didn't seem to have a strategy. It was unbelievable. There didn't seem to be any core principles," Woodward writes in describing Van Hollen's thinking. Larry Summers, a top economic adviser to Obama who also served as Treasury Secretary under President Clinton, identified a key distinction that he said impacted budget and spending talks. "Obama doesn't really have the joy of the game. Clinton basically loved negotiating with a bunch of pols, about anything," Summers said. "Whereas, Obama, he really didn't like these guys." Summers said that Obama's "excessive pragmatism" was a problem. "I don't think anybody has a sense of his deep feelings about things." Summers said. "I don't think anybody has a sense of his deep feelings about people. I don't think people have a sense of his deep feelings around the public philosophy." Obama and his top aides were at times dismissive of the tea party freshmen in Congress who made the debt limit into a major fight. He told Woodward he had "some sympathy" for Boehner, since "he just can't control the forces in his caucus now." "You see how crazy these people are. I understand him," the president said. Boehner was equally harsh in his judgment of the flaws inside the White House. "The president was trying to get there. But there was nobody steering the ship underneath him," Boehner told Woodward. "They never had their act together. The president, I think, was ill-served by his team. Nobody in charge, no process. I just don't know how the place works. To this day, I can't tell you how the place works. There's no process for making a decision in this White House. There's nobody in charge." This is rather interesting. Of all of Obama's flaws, lack of direction doesn't immediately come to mind. However, when you think about it, he has taken a back seat on a lot of issues, including Libya, the stimulus package, and even Obamacare to a degree. None of this speaks well for his capacity to be a lead dog. As for Summers's comment about Obama not liking the opposition.... One important moment in the negotiations came when the president scheduled a major address on the nation's long-term debt crisis. A White House staffer thought to invite House Budget Committee Chairman Paul Ryan, R-Wis., along with the other two House Republicans who had served on the Simpson-Bowles debt commission. The president delivered a blistering address, taking apart the Ryan budget plan as "changing the basic social compact in America." Ryan left the speech "genuinely ripped," Woodward writes, feeling that Obama was engaged in "game-on demagoguery" rather than trying to work with the new Republican majority. "I can't believe you poisoned the well like that," Ryan told Obama economic adviser Gene Sperling on his way out of the speech. The president told Woodward that he wasn't aware that Ryan was in the audience, and he called inviting him there "a mistake." If he had known, Obama told Woodard, "I might have modified some of it so that we would leave more negotiations open, because I do think that they felt like we were trying to embarrass him… We made a mistake." Quite frankly, that particular speech shouldn't have been made regardless of whether Ryan was intentionally invited or not. Demagoguing the opposition like that doesn't foster cooperation. This has been an ongoing problem with Obama and one of the key reasons why it is his fault that he has been unable secure compromises with republicans. Here's the best part.... Woodward portrays a president who remained a supreme believer in his own powers of persuasion, even as he faltered in efforts to coax congressional leaders in both parties toward compromise. Boehner told Woodward that at one point, when Boehner voiced concern about passing the deal they were working out, the president reached out and touched his forearm. "John, I've got great confidence in my ability to sway the American people," Boehner quotes the president as having told him. But after the breakthrough agreement fell apart, Boehner's "Plan B" would ultimately exclude the president from most of the key negotiations. The president was "voted off the island," in Woodward's phrase, even by members of his own party, as congressional leaders patched together an eleventh hour framework to avoid default. Frustration over the lack of clear White House planning was voiced to Obama's face at one point, with a Democratic congressional staffer taking the extraordinary step of confronting the president in the Oval Office. With the nation facing the very real possibility of defaulting on its debt for the first time in its history, David Krone, the chief of staff to Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, told the president directly that he couldn't simply reject the only option left to Congress. "It is really disheartening that you, that this White House did not have a Plan B," Krone said, according to Woodward. This is absolutely hilarious. Can you imagine a staffer marching up to Obama and basically telling him that he's so incompetent and such a failed leader that he was going to be cut out of the process? Unbelievable. Anyway, you can bet your ass that Clinton is fully aware of Obama's deficits as a leader (and there have been numerous reports of Clinton saying as such to others). I'm sure that there's a part of him that is disgusted that he has to carry Obama's water. You can read the rest here: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/bob-woodward-book-debt-deal-collapse-led-pure/story?id=17104635 | ||
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Supert0fu
United States499 Posts
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dvorakftw
681 Posts
On September 06 2012 13:08 JinDesu wrote: Yeah, imagine my surprise when I saw the bill... that's why I do support the ACA. A better plan would be to learn why the cost is actually that high and find a way to bring it down instead of just expecting someone else to pay for it. | ||
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dvorakftw
681 Posts
On September 06 2012 13:11 Defacer wrote: The speech was long as hell, and there were many moments where Bill could have ended on a high note. But I think Bill had a very deliberate plan to appeal to independents watching at home, and also preemptively counter the upcoming onslaught of deceptive political ads that the Romney campaign is about to unleash with as much factual information as possible. I think Bill just likes the sound of his own voice. | ||
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farvacola
United States18826 Posts
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
On September 06 2012 14:56 xDaunt wrote: Anyway, you can bet your ass that Clinton is fully aware of Obama's deficits as a leader (and there have been numerous reports of Clinton saying as such to others). I'm sure that there's a part of him that is disgusted that he has to carry Obama's water. I can guarantee that Rick Santorum throws up a little in his mouth every time he has to endorse Romney. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On September 06 2012 15:27 farvacola wrote: Excellent cherry picking with that Woodward article, xDaunt. The man is clearly critical of everyone involved, but one would never know that reading your expertly trimmed quotations. Interesting bit nonetheless, I had heard that Cantor disliked Boehner, but not to the degree described. Pretty much exactly what I thought while I was reading his choice quotations. If you read the article in context, Woodward is incredibly frustrated with not just Obama but EVERYONE involved in Washington at this point and that's a frustration I share as well. While you read the article and look at Obama like an egotistical unilateralist, I look at him as doing what is necessary to bypass the otherwise gridlocked Congress that can't get anything done these days at all. At the cost of some of his own political standing. It's no mystery that the Congressional approval rate is at its lowest since... ever? (citation needed) There's a lot of very good reasons for that. | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
On September 06 2012 15:49 Vindicare605 wrote: Pretty much exactly what I thought while I was reading his choice quotations. If you read the article in context, Woodward is incredibly frustrated with not just Obama but EVERYONE involved in Washington at this point and that's a frustration I share as well. While you read the article and look at Obama like an egotistical unilateralist, I look at him as doing what is necessary to bypass the otherwise gridlocked Congress that can't get anything done these days at all. It's no mystery that the Congressional approval rate is at its lowest since... ever? (citation needed) There's a lot of very good reasons for that. I know. It's not like Boehner exactly had his shit together. But it's obvious that the Democrats expected stronger direction from the White House. I certainly think the White House had an agenda, but were bad at building consensus or defining success criteria for the rest of the party. There's another biography, The Obamas, that basically acknowledges Michelle's dissatisfaction with Barack's staff, and their lack of organization. There's a reason why guys like Rahm Emmanuel and Gibbs are no longer part of Obama's staff. | ||
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Minus`
United States174 Posts
Even with just the bits you highlighted -- WITHOUT considering context, I mean, -- we clearly read different things there. Vindicare summed up my feelings as well: While you read the article and look at Obama like an egotistical unilateralist, I look at him as doing what is necessary to bypass the otherwise gridlocked Congress that can't get anything done these days at all. At the cost of some of his own political standing. ...Also, I'm pretty sure that Paul Ryan is more than a little uneasy with having to ride along with that guy. | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
On September 06 2012 15:57 MinusPlus wrote: Perspective has an interesting way of twisting things, xDaunt. Considering how you read that article, I think it's more of that "irrational hatred" thing you mentioned back at some forgotten point way back in the thread, but don't quote me on that. Even with just the bits you highlighted -- WITHOUT considering context, I mean, -- we clearly read different things there. Vindicare summed up my feelings as well: ...Also, I'm pretty sure that Paul Ryan is more than a little uneasy with having to ride along with that guy. I think that Obama's greatest error was overestimating Boehner's ability to convince the Tea Party Republican's to concede to a compromise. | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
On September 06 2012 14:47 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Well Romney's response to Clinton's speech was, well, pathetic. link? | ||
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dvorakftw
681 Posts
On September 06 2012 13:36 Defacer wrote: Thanks for taking the time to respond, it's nice to get a different, thoughtful perspective. Don't you mean it's nice to hear someone just say what you agree with? | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
On September 06 2012 15:22 dvorakftw wrote: A better plan would be to learn why the cost is actually that high and find a way to bring it down instead of just expecting someone else to pay for it. Well I'm glad I live in Canada. My late grandfather, in his last years had basically everything illness related you could get. Alzheimers, failing kidneys, liver problems, diabetes, high blood pressure etc. You name it, he probably had it. I remember going to his house, and on a shelf in his room is a 2 week package of drugs(the ones where you break open it at a certain time, and it's prefilled for you, and in every single compartment was 3-5 pills(multiple compartments per day) He spent his last 2-3 months in a hospital, where he broke his hip, among other worsening medical complications. Wasn't hospital's fault, they had a sensor attached to the bed to detect him attempting to get up, but my dad+uncles after listening to my grandfather complain for weeks about randomly getting woken up in the middle of the night by the alarm signed a waiver for disabling the alarm. Not the best plan admittedly for a delusional elderly patient who's too weak to really sit up, let alone stand. The cost of care for that would probably be pretty astronomical. Don't really want to think about what the cost would've been if we had to pay for it. | ||
p4NDemik
United States13896 Posts
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/09/05/romney-campaign-responds-to-clinton-dnc-speech/ | ||
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