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On August 16 2012 12:45 xDaunt wrote:
The aspect of the abortion debate that I find particularly offensive is that pro-choice proponents always focus on the need for the availability of abortion in cases of rape, incest, and saving the mother's life, while completely ignoring the fact that abortion is predominantly used as retro-active birth control (regardless of whether other forms of birth control was previously used).
Pro-choice proponents only focus on the "rape, incest, and danger to the mother" clause when conservatives take the indefensible position that abortion should be illegal even in those cases. I won't speak for anyone else, but I agree with you that rape, incest, and danger to the mother probably account for a very low percentage of actual abortions. That doesn't diminish their importance or invalidate the position somehow.
So your position is that since abortion can be used irresponsibly, we should make it illegal? I really hope we don't apply that logic to any other aspect of our society. The solution isn't to make it illegal, which will just force desperate women to seek illegal abortions which have the dual affect of harming both mother and fetus. Better education in schools that teach kids that while sex is awesome, having a kid in high school or getting AIDS isn't, so wear a fucking condom. Better education can go a long way towards reducing the need for abortion in the first place so that you are left with the cases of rape, incest, and danger to the mother.
But all the education in the world won't stop unwanted pregnancies, and if it gets that far I'm really not comfortable telling a woman she has to keep an unwanted parasite that will likely ruin her life.
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The relevence is that the chart proves the statment "abortion is predominantly used as retro-active birth control " is true.
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On August 16 2012 22:04 DoubleReed wrote:
I find it particularly offensive that assholes like xDaunt are defending this while calling themselves "conservative" or even more sickening, "libertarian." This is putting government between you and your doctor. This is government intervening in the most personal and dangerous of ways.
As much as I agree with your position and very strongly disagree with basically every position of xDaunt policy-wise, you should refrain from insulting him. Insults have no place in a debate like this.
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Wow, this topic stayed pretty long away from the eternal classic that is US abortion laws.
Let's move on to Guns!
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On August 16 2012 23:29 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 22:04 DoubleReed wrote:
I find it particularly offensive that assholes like xDaunt are defending this while calling themselves "conservative" or even more sickening, "libertarian." This is putting government between you and your doctor. This is government intervening in the most personal and dangerous of ways. As much as I agree with your position and very strongly disagree with basically every position of xDaunt policy-wise, you should refrain from insulting him. Insults have no place in a debate like this.
I disagree. Acting so absurd and hypocritical deserves nothing short of insulting and mockery. If you treat disrespectful ideas with respect, you only give credence to their absolutely outlandish, offensive behavior. His attitude right now is misogynistic (or just apathetic), and I don't treat such opinions with respect.
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On August 16 2012 23:17 RCMDVA wrote:Reasons for abortions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States Another study, in 1998, revealed that in 1987-1988 women reported the following as their primary reasons for choosing an abortion:[44] The source of this information, however, takes findings into account from 27 nations including the United States, so these findings might not be typical for most American women. 25.9% Want to postpone childbearing 21.3% Cannot afford a baby 14.1% Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy 12.2% Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy 10.8% Having a child will disrupt education or job 7.9% Want no (more) children 3.3% Risk to fetal health 2.8% Risk to maternal health 2.1% Other So. Less than 10% are health/rape/incest related.
On August 16 2012 23:27 RCMDVA wrote:
The relevence is that the chart proves the statment "abortion is predominantly used as retro-active birth control " is true.
Notice that this list makes no effort to determine whether the pregnancy was the result of failed birth control or no birth control. "Retroactive birth control" implies that the woman did not use a form of birth control during intercourse. This table shows no such thing.
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On August 16 2012 12:45 xDaunt wrote:
The aspect of the abortion debate that I find particularly offensive is that pro-choice proponents always focus on the need for the availability of abortion in cases of rape, incest, and saving the mother's life, while completely ignoring the fact that abortion is predominantly used as retro-active birth control (regardless of whether other forms of birth control was previously used).
The reason cases of rape, incest and saving the mother's life are often brought up is that pro-life proponents are uneasy with those cases and it shows the shaky ground they're standing on. Even if some proponents of abortion rights are uneasy with the idea of abortion being used in cases of consensual sex (and in non-life threatening situations), they still support the woman's right to choose - hence the name pro-choice and not pro-abortion. I personally have no problem whatsoever with women resorting to abortion to get rid of an unwanted fetus. Of course, I also strongly support preventive, birth control, coverage, to avoid having to resort to that. paralleluniverse summed it up perfectly: "my opinion is that a women's right to her body trumps the rights of a fetus that is unborn, (and depending on the stage of pregnancy) unconscious, and unfeeling. It's not a real person yet".
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On August 16 2012 23:56 Vega62a wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 23:17 RCMDVA wrote:Reasons for abortions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States Another study, in 1998, revealed that in 1987-1988 women reported the following as their primary reasons for choosing an abortion:[44] The source of this information, however, takes findings into account from 27 nations including the United States, so these findings might not be typical for most American women. 25.9% Want to postpone childbearing 21.3% Cannot afford a baby 14.1% Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy 12.2% Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy 10.8% Having a child will disrupt education or job 7.9% Want no (more) children 3.3% Risk to fetal health 2.8% Risk to maternal health 2.1% Other So. Less than 10% are health/rape/incest related. Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 23:27 RCMDVA wrote:
The relevence is that the chart proves the statment "abortion is predominantly used as retro-active birth control " is true.
Notice that this list makes no effort to determine whether the pregnancy was the result of failed birth control or no birth control. "Retroactive birth control" implies that the woman did not use a form of birth control during intercourse. This table shows no such thing.
It also doesn't have a rape category (which people would lie about and put themselves in another category). And yet he includes rape/incest in his conclusion.
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On August 16 2012 23:56 Vega62a wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 23:17 RCMDVA wrote:Reasons for abortions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States Another study, in 1998, revealed that in 1987-1988 women reported the following as their primary reasons for choosing an abortion:[44] The source of this information, however, takes findings into account from 27 nations including the United States, so these findings might not be typical for most American women. 25.9% Want to postpone childbearing 21.3% Cannot afford a baby 14.1% Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy 12.2% Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy 10.8% Having a child will disrupt education or job 7.9% Want no (more) children 3.3% Risk to fetal health 2.8% Risk to maternal health 2.1% Other So. Less than 10% are health/rape/incest related. Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 23:27 RCMDVA wrote:
The relevence is that the chart proves the statment "abortion is predominantly used as retro-active birth control " is true.
Notice that this list makes no effort to determine whether the pregnancy was the result of failed birth control or no birth control. "Retroactive birth control" implies that the woman did not use a form of birth control during intercourse. This table shows no such thing.
Nit picking semantics much? It's being used for cntrolling whether the prospective mother wants a child or not without respect to health in 90% of cases. What do you think condoms/pills are for?
On August 17 2012 00:21 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 23:56 Vega62a wrote:On August 16 2012 23:17 RCMDVA wrote:Reasons for abortions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States Another study, in 1998, revealed that in 1987-1988 women reported the following as their primary reasons for choosing an abortion:[44] The source of this information, however, takes findings into account from 27 nations including the United States, so these findings might not be typical for most American women. 25.9% Want to postpone childbearing 21.3% Cannot afford a baby 14.1% Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy 12.2% Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy 10.8% Having a child will disrupt education or job 7.9% Want no (more) children 3.3% Risk to fetal health 2.8% Risk to maternal health 2.1% Other So. Less than 10% are health/rape/incest related. On August 16 2012 23:27 RCMDVA wrote:
The relevence is that the chart proves the statment "abortion is predominantly used as retro-active birth control " is true.
Notice that this list makes no effort to determine whether the pregnancy was the result of failed birth control or no birth control. "Retroactive birth control" implies that the woman did not use a form of birth control during intercourse. This table shows no such thing. It also doesn't have a rape category (which people would lie about and put themselves in another category). And yet he includes rape/incest in his conclusion.
Yeah, if only it had a category that included every reason not specifically listed  .
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On August 16 2012 23:17 RCMDVA wrote:Reasons for abortions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States Another study, in 1998, revealed that in 1987-1988 women reported the following as their primary reasons for choosing an abortion:[44] The source of this information, however, takes findings into account from 27 nations including the United States, so these findings might not be typical for most American women. 25.9% Want to postpone childbearing 21.3% Cannot afford a baby 14.1% Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy 12.2% Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy 10.8% Having a child will disrupt education or job 7.9% Want no (more) children 3.3% Risk to fetal health 2.8% Risk to maternal health 2.1% Other So. Less than 10% are health/rape/incest related.
Yeah, that's basically it. The incidences of abortion after rape and incest are very, very small.The vast majority occur either as a result of a failure to use birth control or a failure of the birth control.
EDIT: And I don't see why this is news to anyone. I would think that it should be pretty obvious.
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Well some of the other reasons could be perfectly correct for a rape case. Concluding that rape victims would always check "other" is rather silly in my opinion.
Again this matters very little. In order to legislate you have make blanket laws for abortion cases which cause harm to women's health. Politicians should not be getting between you and your medical decisions. End of story.
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On August 16 2012 22:55 Leporello wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 12:45 xDaunt wrote:
The aspect of the abortion debate that I find particularly offensive is that pro-choice proponents always focus on the need for the availability of abortion in cases of rape, incest, and saving the mother's life, while completely ignoring the fact that abortion is predominantly used as retro-active birth control (regardless of whether other forms of birth control was previously used). Debating the need for available abortions for rape victims offends you?
No, I don't have a problem with abortions for victims of rape and incest. What I have a problem with is individuals who hide behind the minority usage of abortion as a justification for the majority usage.
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On August 16 2012 23:23 ZasZ. wrote:
So your position is that since abortion can be used irresponsibly, we should make it illegal? I really hope we don't apply that logic to any other aspect of our society. The solution isn't to make it illegal, which will just force desperate women to seek illegal abortions which have the dual affect of harming both mother and fetus. Better education in schools that teach kids that while sex is awesome, having a kid in high school or getting AIDS isn't, so wear a fucking condom. Better education can go a long way towards reducing the need for abortion in the first place so that you are left with the cases of rape, incest, and danger to the mother..
I don't really have a position on abortion, though I tend to stray pro-life. For one, I find the whole debate to be distasteful. There really isn't a good answer. Second, it's basically settled law in the US anyway that women have a right to get an abortion, and that right is basically unequivocal during the first trimester (more rules come into the place the further that the pregnancy progresses, but that's another story).
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On August 17 2012 00:27 Budmandude wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 23:56 Vega62a wrote:On August 16 2012 23:17 RCMDVA wrote:Reasons for abortions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States Another study, in 1998, revealed that in 1987-1988 women reported the following as their primary reasons for choosing an abortion:[44] The source of this information, however, takes findings into account from 27 nations including the United States, so these findings might not be typical for most American women. 25.9% Want to postpone childbearing 21.3% Cannot afford a baby 14.1% Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy 12.2% Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy 10.8% Having a child will disrupt education or job 7.9% Want no (more) children 3.3% Risk to fetal health 2.8% Risk to maternal health 2.1% Other So. Less than 10% are health/rape/incest related. On August 16 2012 23:27 RCMDVA wrote:
The relevence is that the chart proves the statment "abortion is predominantly used as retro-active birth control " is true.
Notice that this list makes no effort to determine whether the pregnancy was the result of failed birth control or no birth control. "Retroactive birth control" implies that the woman did not use a form of birth control during intercourse. This table shows no such thing. Nit picking semantics much? It's being used for cntrolling whether the prospective mother wants a child or not without respect to health in 90% of cases. What do you think condoms/pills are for? Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 00:21 DoubleReed wrote:On August 16 2012 23:56 Vega62a wrote:On August 16 2012 23:17 RCMDVA wrote:Reasons for abortions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States Another study, in 1998, revealed that in 1987-1988 women reported the following as their primary reasons for choosing an abortion:[44] The source of this information, however, takes findings into account from 27 nations including the United States, so these findings might not be typical for most American women. 25.9% Want to postpone childbearing 21.3% Cannot afford a baby 14.1% Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy 12.2% Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy 10.8% Having a child will disrupt education or job 7.9% Want no (more) children 3.3% Risk to fetal health 2.8% Risk to maternal health 2.1% Other So. Less than 10% are health/rape/incest related. On August 16 2012 23:27 RCMDVA wrote:
The relevence is that the chart proves the statment "abortion is predominantly used as retro-active birth control " is true.
Notice that this list makes no effort to determine whether the pregnancy was the result of failed birth control or no birth control. "Retroactive birth control" implies that the woman did not use a form of birth control during intercourse. This table shows no such thing. It also doesn't have a rape category (which people would lie about and put themselves in another category). And yet he includes rape/incest in his conclusion. Yeah, if only it had a category that included every reason not specifically listed .
This isn't semantics. The phrase "retroactive birth control" is inflammatory and intended to paint the recipients of abortions as irresponsible. It's extremely important to understand that many abortions result from the failure of birth control. So you saying "that's what condoms are for" is also massively condescending, as well as a bit snarky with just a hint of deliberate ignorance.
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On August 16 2012 23:44 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 23:29 kwizach wrote:On August 16 2012 22:04 DoubleReed wrote:
I find it particularly offensive that assholes like xDaunt are defending this while calling themselves "conservative" or even more sickening, "libertarian." This is putting government between you and your doctor. This is government intervening in the most personal and dangerous of ways. As much as I agree with your position and very strongly disagree with basically every position of xDaunt policy-wise, you should refrain from insulting him. Insults have no place in a debate like this. I disagree. Acting so absurd and hypocritical deserves nothing short of insulting and mockery. If you treat disrespectful ideas with respect, you only give credence to their absolutely outlandish, offensive behavior. His attitude right now is misogynistic (or just apathetic), and I don't treat such opinions with respect.
There's nothing disrespectful about pointing out that the vast majority of abortions are performed for birth control purposes. I specifically pointed out that fact because there are so many people who ignore and hide from the brutal moral consequences of what they're advocating when they're pro-choice. Looking at your reaction over the past couple pages, it looks like you're one of those people.
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On August 17 2012 00:40 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 23:44 DoubleReed wrote:On August 16 2012 23:29 kwizach wrote:On August 16 2012 22:04 DoubleReed wrote:
I find it particularly offensive that assholes like xDaunt are defending this while calling themselves "conservative" or even more sickening, "libertarian." This is putting government between you and your doctor. This is government intervening in the most personal and dangerous of ways. As much as I agree with your position and very strongly disagree with basically every position of xDaunt policy-wise, you should refrain from insulting him. Insults have no place in a debate like this. I disagree. Acting so absurd and hypocritical deserves nothing short of insulting and mockery. If you treat disrespectful ideas with respect, you only give credence to their absolutely outlandish, offensive behavior. His attitude right now is misogynistic (or just apathetic), and I don't treat such opinions with respect. There's nothing disrespectful about pointing out that the vast majority of abortions are performed for birth control purposes. I specifically pointed out that fact because there are so many people who ignore and hide from the brutal moral consequences of what they're advocating when they're pro-choice. Looking at your reaction over the past couple pages, it looks like you're one of those people.
Get real. If we really had moral problems with women unconditionally getting abortions, then that would not be our view.
You're not gonna score a "gotcha" on our alleged doublethink morality.
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On August 17 2012 00:37 Vega62a wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 00:27 Budmandude wrote:On August 16 2012 23:56 Vega62a wrote:On August 16 2012 23:17 RCMDVA wrote:Reasons for abortions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States Another study, in 1998, revealed that in 1987-1988 women reported the following as their primary reasons for choosing an abortion:[44] The source of this information, however, takes findings into account from 27 nations including the United States, so these findings might not be typical for most American women. 25.9% Want to postpone childbearing 21.3% Cannot afford a baby 14.1% Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy 12.2% Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy 10.8% Having a child will disrupt education or job 7.9% Want no (more) children 3.3% Risk to fetal health 2.8% Risk to maternal health 2.1% Other So. Less than 10% are health/rape/incest related. On August 16 2012 23:27 RCMDVA wrote:
The relevence is that the chart proves the statment "abortion is predominantly used as retro-active birth control " is true.
Notice that this list makes no effort to determine whether the pregnancy was the result of failed birth control or no birth control. "Retroactive birth control" implies that the woman did not use a form of birth control during intercourse. This table shows no such thing. Nit picking semantics much? It's being used for cntrolling whether the prospective mother wants a child or not without respect to health in 90% of cases. What do you think condoms/pills are for? On August 17 2012 00:21 DoubleReed wrote:On August 16 2012 23:56 Vega62a wrote:On August 16 2012 23:17 RCMDVA wrote:Reasons for abortions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States Another study, in 1998, revealed that in 1987-1988 women reported the following as their primary reasons for choosing an abortion:[44] The source of this information, however, takes findings into account from 27 nations including the United States, so these findings might not be typical for most American women. 25.9% Want to postpone childbearing 21.3% Cannot afford a baby 14.1% Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy 12.2% Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy 10.8% Having a child will disrupt education or job 7.9% Want no (more) children 3.3% Risk to fetal health 2.8% Risk to maternal health 2.1% Other So. Less than 10% are health/rape/incest related. On August 16 2012 23:27 RCMDVA wrote:
The relevence is that the chart proves the statment "abortion is predominantly used as retro-active birth control " is true.
Notice that this list makes no effort to determine whether the pregnancy was the result of failed birth control or no birth control. "Retroactive birth control" implies that the woman did not use a form of birth control during intercourse. This table shows no such thing. It also doesn't have a rape category (which people would lie about and put themselves in another category). And yet he includes rape/incest in his conclusion. Yeah, if only it had a category that included every reason not specifically listed . This isn't semantics. The phrase "retroactive birth control" is inflammatory and intended to paint the recipients of abortions as irresponsible. It's extremely important to understand that many abortions result from the failure of birth control. So you saying "that's what condoms are for" is also massively condescending, as well as a bit snarky with just a hint of deliberate ignorance.
I really don't think that there is any significant moral difference between getting an abortion after having unprotected sex and getting an abortion after birth control fails. In both cases, the individuals knows that there's a risk of pregnancy, even if it is greatly smaller when using birth control. The bottom line is that someone is killing off a fetus to avoid the consequences of their own actions.
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On August 17 2012 00:44 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 00:40 xDaunt wrote:On August 16 2012 23:44 DoubleReed wrote:On August 16 2012 23:29 kwizach wrote:On August 16 2012 22:04 DoubleReed wrote:
I find it particularly offensive that assholes like xDaunt are defending this while calling themselves "conservative" or even more sickening, "libertarian." This is putting government between you and your doctor. This is government intervening in the most personal and dangerous of ways. As much as I agree with your position and very strongly disagree with basically every position of xDaunt policy-wise, you should refrain from insulting him. Insults have no place in a debate like this. I disagree. Acting so absurd and hypocritical deserves nothing short of insulting and mockery. If you treat disrespectful ideas with respect, you only give credence to their absolutely outlandish, offensive behavior. His attitude right now is misogynistic (or just apathetic), and I don't treat such opinions with respect. There's nothing disrespectful about pointing out that the vast majority of abortions are performed for birth control purposes. I specifically pointed out that fact because there are so many people who ignore and hide from the brutal moral consequences of what they're advocating when they're pro-choice. Looking at your reaction over the past couple pages, it looks like you're one of those people. Get real. If we really had moral problems with women unconditionally getting abortions, then that would not be our view. You're not gonna score a "gotcha" on our alleged doublethink morality.
I'm fully aware that there are plenty of unapologetic pro-choice people, and I noted you as one of them by your earlier post.
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You know not much is happening in the election (besides mud being thrown) when people start arguing about abortion.
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On August 17 2012 00:40 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 23:44 DoubleReed wrote:On August 16 2012 23:29 kwizach wrote:On August 16 2012 22:04 DoubleReed wrote:
I find it particularly offensive that assholes like xDaunt are defending this while calling themselves "conservative" or even more sickening, "libertarian." This is putting government between you and your doctor. This is government intervening in the most personal and dangerous of ways. As much as I agree with your position and very strongly disagree with basically every position of xDaunt policy-wise, you should refrain from insulting him. Insults have no place in a debate like this. I disagree. Acting so absurd and hypocritical deserves nothing short of insulting and mockery. If you treat disrespectful ideas with respect, you only give credence to their absolutely outlandish, offensive behavior. His attitude right now is misogynistic (or just apathetic), and I don't treat such opinions with respect. There's nothing disrespectful about pointing out that the vast majority of abortions are performed for birth control purposes. I specifically pointed out that fact because there are so many people who ignore and hide from the brutal moral consequences of what they're advocating when they're pro-choice. Looking at your reaction over the past couple pages, it looks like you're one of those people.
Yes and you keep talking about abortion is pretty much a shut case for now and there is no War on Women which disingenuous at best. Neither is true. Republicans are trying to restrict abortions in every possible ridiculous and weird way that they can, including first trimester abortions. Isaacson vs Horne was upheld and is now in appeals court. You are trying to justify your apathy, which I find hypocritical of a so-called "libertarian."
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EPT
