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On April 18 2012 15:42 TheGeneralTheoryOf wrote:
Personally I think this whole 'need PHD to get a job' bs is just a way of keeping people out of the labour market. Back when I worked at a call center I remember so many of the people in my class had university diplomas and were working the same crappy minimum wage job I was. The whole economy is fucked because so much of it is based upon the govenrment redistributing wealth. A kleptocracy does not a healthy future make.
Are you restricting your job search to positions as a professor in universities?
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On April 18 2012 16:42 NEOtheONE wrote:Commence Rant/ Education is grossly overcharged. It is utterly preposterous what we have to pay on average here in America. Show nested quote +Expenses, Tuition Fee & Living Costs
US Universities fall under two major categories: public (state supported), and private (independent) institutions. International students’ tuition expenses at state schools are based on nonresident costs, which are still usually less expensive than those of private universities. It’s important to note that the cost of a program in a US school does not necessarily affect its quality. A brief idea can be got from the following table:
University Type Average Tuition Fees
(annual in U.S. Dollars)
Private Institutions (High Cost) $ 25,000
Private Institutions (Low Cost) $ 15,000
State Institutions (High Cost) $ 20,000
State Institutions (Low Cost) $ 10,000
The tuition fee is different for different universities and varies widely with courses. It can vary from as low as $ 5000 a year for state universities to as much as $ 30000 per annum for some private universities. For more specific details, please contact the universities.
Living Expenses
The approximate annual living expenses are about $10,000, which includes accommodation as well as other daily expenses. However, the expenses are different for different people depending on the lifestyles and this is just a rough idea. The main expenses can be split up as:
Rent $ 400 per month
(you can live alone with that amount in a place like Auburn or share an apartment with 6 people in NY)
Groceries $ 100 per month
Utilities $ 100 per month
Phone $ 100 per month
Sundry $ 200 per month
So, about $1000 per month is a good estimation. Most people can survive with $700-$1000 a month. The key here is to share apartments/houses so that you save on the utilities, fixed charge portion of phone and to some extent on groceries. source: http://www.infozee.com/usa/expenses.htmFor myself, I went to a private institution and lived there. So tuition +room +board was approximately $29,000 per year. I received a scholarship for $8500 per year and a grant of $4500 per year. The other $16,000 per year came in the form of loans split between my parents and myself. Tack on 3 years of graduate school for my Masters degree in Counseling and I am looking at $60,000 that I personally owe (before interest). I am greatly in favor of the idea of not having to pay back the full $60,000 plus interest over a 10-15 year period (which makes the $60,000 turn into more like $90,000-100,000). In addition to that debt, I have to obtain and maintain my license to practice counseling, which there are two levels of and I have to pay someone to supervise me 1 hour per week (which could cost anywhere from $40 to $140 per week) while I accumulate 1900 hours of counseling work (that's about 2 years working full time so 104 weeks ish minimum) to obtain the second level of licensure so I can work with people who have insurance. So it's fair for me to shell out all this money just to help people, but it's ignorant to ask the government to make paying it back a little more reasonable? I call bullshit. /End Rant
i lived at home and commuted to school to keep living expenses down. i earned money before college so i wouldnt have to take as many loans out. i worked hard to get scholarships. i worked during college and every summer to keep loans manageable. i now have loans that i can repay with my job, and i would not benefit at all from the loan forgiveness because i kept expenses down and made sure i could pay back all my student debt. is it fair for me to have to pay extra taxes because you decided to go to an expensive private institution? is it fair for me to have to pay extra taxes because you decided to live on campus at extra expense to yourself? is it ignorant of me to expect that my tax money wont be used to subsidize people's choice of not managing their finances appropriately?
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On April 18 2012 17:26 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 16:42 NEOtheONE wrote:Commence Rant/ Education is grossly overcharged. It is utterly preposterous what we have to pay on average here in America. Expenses, Tuition Fee & Living Costs
US Universities fall under two major categories: public (state supported), and private (independent) institutions. International students’ tuition expenses at state schools are based on nonresident costs, which are still usually less expensive than those of private universities. It’s important to note that the cost of a program in a US school does not necessarily affect its quality. A brief idea can be got from the following table:
University Type Average Tuition Fees
(annual in U.S. Dollars)
Private Institutions (High Cost) $ 25,000
Private Institutions (Low Cost) $ 15,000
State Institutions (High Cost) $ 20,000
State Institutions (Low Cost) $ 10,000
The tuition fee is different for different universities and varies widely with courses. It can vary from as low as $ 5000 a year for state universities to as much as $ 30000 per annum for some private universities. For more specific details, please contact the universities.
Living Expenses
The approximate annual living expenses are about $10,000, which includes accommodation as well as other daily expenses. However, the expenses are different for different people depending on the lifestyles and this is just a rough idea. The main expenses can be split up as:
Rent $ 400 per month
(you can live alone with that amount in a place like Auburn or share an apartment with 6 people in NY)
Groceries $ 100 per month
Utilities $ 100 per month
Phone $ 100 per month
Sundry $ 200 per month
So, about $1000 per month is a good estimation. Most people can survive with $700-$1000 a month. The key here is to share apartments/houses so that you save on the utilities, fixed charge portion of phone and to some extent on groceries. source: http://www.infozee.com/usa/expenses.htmFor myself, I went to a private institution and lived there. So tuition +room +board was approximately $29,000 per year. I received a scholarship for $8500 per year and a grant of $4500 per year. The other $16,000 per year came in the form of loans split between my parents and myself. Tack on 3 years of graduate school for my Masters degree in Counseling and I am looking at $60,000 that I personally owe (before interest). I am greatly in favor of the idea of not having to pay back the full $60,000 plus interest over a 10-15 year period (which makes the $60,000 turn into more like $90,000-100,000). In addition to that debt, I have to obtain and maintain my license to practice counseling, which there are two levels of and I have to pay someone to supervise me 1 hour per week (which could cost anywhere from $40 to $140 per week) while I accumulate 1900 hours of counseling work (that's about 2 years working full time so 104 weeks ish minimum) to obtain the second level of licensure so I can work with people who have insurance. So it's fair for me to shell out all this money just to help people, but it's ignorant to ask the government to make paying it back a little more reasonable? I call bullshit. /End Rant i lived at home and commuted to school to keep living expenses down. i earned money before college so i wouldnt have to take as many loans out. i worked hard to get scholarships. i worked during college and every summer to keep loans manageable. i now have loans that i can repay with my job, and i would not benefit at all from the loan forgiveness because i kept expenses down and made sure i could pay back all my student debt. is it fair for me to have to pay extra taxes because you decided to go to an expensive private institution? is it fair for me to have to pay extra taxes because you decided to live on campus at extra expense to yourself? is it ignorant of me to expect that my tax money wont be used to subsidize people's choice of not managing their finances appropriately?
I feel similar, although my parents definitely helped me along the way. I lived at home and commuted to college while everyone else I knew got the dorm experience. I worked at the age of 15 taking the bus to another city because most places won't hire at 15, but 16. I've worked full time during summers and 20 hours a week for most of college. Sometimes I'd work up to 55 hours/week during summer between two jobs.
I can't relate quite as much though since my parents helped me a lot, and my loans are fairly manageable. I mean, as it is now, your loan repayment is dependent upon your current salary, so if you're not making a ton, you're not paying a ton back yet either.
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On April 18 2012 17:26 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 16:42 NEOtheONE wrote:Commence Rant/ Education is grossly overcharged. It is utterly preposterous what we have to pay on average here in America. Expenses, Tuition Fee & Living Costs
US Universities fall under two major categories: public (state supported), and private (independent) institutions. International students’ tuition expenses at state schools are based on nonresident costs, which are still usually less expensive than those of private universities. It’s important to note that the cost of a program in a US school does not necessarily affect its quality. A brief idea can be got from the following table:
University Type Average Tuition Fees
(annual in U.S. Dollars)
Private Institutions (High Cost) $ 25,000
Private Institutions (Low Cost) $ 15,000
State Institutions (High Cost) $ 20,000
State Institutions (Low Cost) $ 10,000
The tuition fee is different for different universities and varies widely with courses. It can vary from as low as $ 5000 a year for state universities to as much as $ 30000 per annum for some private universities. For more specific details, please contact the universities.
Living Expenses
The approximate annual living expenses are about $10,000, which includes accommodation as well as other daily expenses. However, the expenses are different for different people depending on the lifestyles and this is just a rough idea. The main expenses can be split up as:
Rent $ 400 per month
(you can live alone with that amount in a place like Auburn or share an apartment with 6 people in NY)
Groceries $ 100 per month
Utilities $ 100 per month
Phone $ 100 per month
Sundry $ 200 per month
So, about $1000 per month is a good estimation. Most people can survive with $700-$1000 a month. The key here is to share apartments/houses so that you save on the utilities, fixed charge portion of phone and to some extent on groceries. source: http://www.infozee.com/usa/expenses.htmFor myself, I went to a private institution and lived there. So tuition +room +board was approximately $29,000 per year. I received a scholarship for $8500 per year and a grant of $4500 per year. The other $16,000 per year came in the form of loans split between my parents and myself. Tack on 3 years of graduate school for my Masters degree in Counseling and I am looking at $60,000 that I personally owe (before interest). I am greatly in favor of the idea of not having to pay back the full $60,000 plus interest over a 10-15 year period (which makes the $60,000 turn into more like $90,000-100,000). In addition to that debt, I have to obtain and maintain my license to practice counseling, which there are two levels of and I have to pay someone to supervise me 1 hour per week (which could cost anywhere from $40 to $140 per week) while I accumulate 1900 hours of counseling work (that's about 2 years working full time so 104 weeks ish minimum) to obtain the second level of licensure so I can work with people who have insurance. So it's fair for me to shell out all this money just to help people, but it's ignorant to ask the government to make paying it back a little more reasonable? I call bullshit. /End Rant i lived at home and commuted to school to keep living expenses down. i earned money before college so i wouldnt have to take as many loans out. i worked hard to get scholarships. i worked during college and every summer to keep loans manageable. i now have loans that i can repay with my job, and i would not benefit at all from the loan forgiveness because i kept expenses down and made sure i could pay back all my student debt. is it fair for me to have to pay extra taxes because you decided to go to an expensive private institution? is it fair for me to have to pay extra taxes because you decided to live on campus at extra expense to yourself? is it ignorant of me to expect that my tax money wont be used to subsidize people's choice of not managing their finances appropriately?
It's so depressive to see that so many people have this "I went through this so I want everyone else to have to go through the same thing as well" attitude these days.
One would think that after you've been through all that and had to make so many sacrifices to get what you want, you would strive to make sure other people - or at the very least future generations - do not have to go through the same thing or at least have it a LITTLE bit easier, rather than condemning them to the same fate due to some misguided concept of fairness.
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On April 18 2012 17:26 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 16:42 NEOtheONE wrote:Commence Rant/ Education is grossly overcharged. It is utterly preposterous what we have to pay on average here in America. Expenses, Tuition Fee & Living Costs
US Universities fall under two major categories: public (state supported), and private (independent) institutions. International students’ tuition expenses at state schools are based on nonresident costs, which are still usually less expensive than those of private universities. It’s important to note that the cost of a program in a US school does not necessarily affect its quality. A brief idea can be got from the following table:
University Type Average Tuition Fees
(annual in U.S. Dollars)
Private Institutions (High Cost) $ 25,000
Private Institutions (Low Cost) $ 15,000
State Institutions (High Cost) $ 20,000
State Institutions (Low Cost) $ 10,000
The tuition fee is different for different universities and varies widely with courses. It can vary from as low as $ 5000 a year for state universities to as much as $ 30000 per annum for some private universities. For more specific details, please contact the universities.
Living Expenses
The approximate annual living expenses are about $10,000, which includes accommodation as well as other daily expenses. However, the expenses are different for different people depending on the lifestyles and this is just a rough idea. The main expenses can be split up as:
Rent $ 400 per month
(you can live alone with that amount in a place like Auburn or share an apartment with 6 people in NY)
Groceries $ 100 per month
Utilities $ 100 per month
Phone $ 100 per month
Sundry $ 200 per month
So, about $1000 per month is a good estimation. Most people can survive with $700-$1000 a month. The key here is to share apartments/houses so that you save on the utilities, fixed charge portion of phone and to some extent on groceries. source: http://www.infozee.com/usa/expenses.htmFor myself, I went to a private institution and lived there. So tuition +room +board was approximately $29,000 per year. I received a scholarship for $8500 per year and a grant of $4500 per year. The other $16,000 per year came in the form of loans split between my parents and myself. Tack on 3 years of graduate school for my Masters degree in Counseling and I am looking at $60,000 that I personally owe (before interest). I am greatly in favor of the idea of not having to pay back the full $60,000 plus interest over a 10-15 year period (which makes the $60,000 turn into more like $90,000-100,000). In addition to that debt, I have to obtain and maintain my license to practice counseling, which there are two levels of and I have to pay someone to supervise me 1 hour per week (which could cost anywhere from $40 to $140 per week) while I accumulate 1900 hours of counseling work (that's about 2 years working full time so 104 weeks ish minimum) to obtain the second level of licensure so I can work with people who have insurance. So it's fair for me to shell out all this money just to help people, but it's ignorant to ask the government to make paying it back a little more reasonable? I call bullshit. /End Rant i lived at home and commuted to school to keep living expenses down. i earned money before college so i wouldnt have to take as many loans out. i worked hard to get scholarships. i worked during college and every summer to keep loans manageable. i now have loans that i can repay with my job, and i would not benefit at all from the loan forgiveness because i kept expenses down and made sure i could pay back all my student debt. is it fair for me to have to pay extra taxes because you decided to go to an expensive private institution? is it fair for me to have to pay extra taxes because you decided to live on campus at extra expense to yourself? is it ignorant of me to expect that my tax money wont be used to subsidize people's choice of not managing their finances appropriately?
Because everyone can find a job right now (I was able to through junior+senior years of HS, but many others tried, hard, and failed). you're also assuming that people can get into a college close enough to let them commute that isn't community college etc etc. Not to mention that you're condemning people for going to a private university that may offer them a superior education... Not everyone's going to be able to go through college as cheaply and successfully as you, and implying that people are stupid and/or lazy for doing so is dumb, as is suggesting that everyone should have to go through the tough shit you did cause it would be "fair". Your tax money isn't going to subsidize "laziness", it's subsidizing people who either aren't as lucky as you or go/went to universities that charged more than yours.
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On April 18 2012 18:19 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 17:26 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 18 2012 16:42 NEOtheONE wrote:Commence Rant/ Education is grossly overcharged. It is utterly preposterous what we have to pay on average here in America. Expenses, Tuition Fee & Living Costs
US Universities fall under two major categories: public (state supported), and private (independent) institutions. International students’ tuition expenses at state schools are based on nonresident costs, which are still usually less expensive than those of private universities. It’s important to note that the cost of a program in a US school does not necessarily affect its quality. A brief idea can be got from the following table:
University Type Average Tuition Fees
(annual in U.S. Dollars)
Private Institutions (High Cost) $ 25,000
Private Institutions (Low Cost) $ 15,000
State Institutions (High Cost) $ 20,000
State Institutions (Low Cost) $ 10,000
The tuition fee is different for different universities and varies widely with courses. It can vary from as low as $ 5000 a year for state universities to as much as $ 30000 per annum for some private universities. For more specific details, please contact the universities.
Living Expenses
The approximate annual living expenses are about $10,000, which includes accommodation as well as other daily expenses. However, the expenses are different for different people depending on the lifestyles and this is just a rough idea. The main expenses can be split up as:
Rent $ 400 per month
(you can live alone with that amount in a place like Auburn or share an apartment with 6 people in NY)
Groceries $ 100 per month
Utilities $ 100 per month
Phone $ 100 per month
Sundry $ 200 per month
So, about $1000 per month is a good estimation. Most people can survive with $700-$1000 a month. The key here is to share apartments/houses so that you save on the utilities, fixed charge portion of phone and to some extent on groceries. source: http://www.infozee.com/usa/expenses.htmFor myself, I went to a private institution and lived there. So tuition +room +board was approximately $29,000 per year. I received a scholarship for $8500 per year and a grant of $4500 per year. The other $16,000 per year came in the form of loans split between my parents and myself. Tack on 3 years of graduate school for my Masters degree in Counseling and I am looking at $60,000 that I personally owe (before interest). I am greatly in favor of the idea of not having to pay back the full $60,000 plus interest over a 10-15 year period (which makes the $60,000 turn into more like $90,000-100,000). In addition to that debt, I have to obtain and maintain my license to practice counseling, which there are two levels of and I have to pay someone to supervise me 1 hour per week (which could cost anywhere from $40 to $140 per week) while I accumulate 1900 hours of counseling work (that's about 2 years working full time so 104 weeks ish minimum) to obtain the second level of licensure so I can work with people who have insurance. So it's fair for me to shell out all this money just to help people, but it's ignorant to ask the government to make paying it back a little more reasonable? I call bullshit. /End Rant i lived at home and commuted to school to keep living expenses down. i earned money before college so i wouldnt have to take as many loans out. i worked hard to get scholarships. i worked during college and every summer to keep loans manageable. i now have loans that i can repay with my job, and i would not benefit at all from the loan forgiveness because i kept expenses down and made sure i could pay back all my student debt. is it fair for me to have to pay extra taxes because you decided to go to an expensive private institution? is it fair for me to have to pay extra taxes because you decided to live on campus at extra expense to yourself? is it ignorant of me to expect that my tax money wont be used to subsidize people's choice of not managing their finances appropriately? It's so depressive to see that so many people have this "I went through this so I want everyone else to have to go through the same thing as well" attitude these days. One would think that after you've been through all that and had to make so many sacrifices to get what you want, you would strive to make sure other people - or at the very least future generations - do not have to go through the same thing or at least have it a LITTLE bit easier, rather than condemning them to the same fate due to some misguided concept of fairness.
It's "I was responsible and you weren't, so why should I have to pay for you being irresponsible?"
You say it like it's sacrifice. It's not sacrificing to do what he did. It's what everyone should do unless they can afford to do otherwise. Sure, it'd be nice if it wasn't like that, but you want him to pay higher taxes to support other people's laziness? Pfft. I'm completely against it.
On April 18 2012 18:26 DystopiaX wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 17:26 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 18 2012 16:42 NEOtheONE wrote:Commence Rant/ Education is grossly overcharged. It is utterly preposterous what we have to pay on average here in America. Expenses, Tuition Fee & Living Costs
US Universities fall under two major categories: public (state supported), and private (independent) institutions. International students’ tuition expenses at state schools are based on nonresident costs, which are still usually less expensive than those of private universities. It’s important to note that the cost of a program in a US school does not necessarily affect its quality. A brief idea can be got from the following table:
University Type Average Tuition Fees
(annual in U.S. Dollars)
Private Institutions (High Cost) $ 25,000
Private Institutions (Low Cost) $ 15,000
State Institutions (High Cost) $ 20,000
State Institutions (Low Cost) $ 10,000
The tuition fee is different for different universities and varies widely with courses. It can vary from as low as $ 5000 a year for state universities to as much as $ 30000 per annum for some private universities. For more specific details, please contact the universities.
Living Expenses
The approximate annual living expenses are about $10,000, which includes accommodation as well as other daily expenses. However, the expenses are different for different people depending on the lifestyles and this is just a rough idea. The main expenses can be split up as:
Rent $ 400 per month
(you can live alone with that amount in a place like Auburn or share an apartment with 6 people in NY)
Groceries $ 100 per month
Utilities $ 100 per month
Phone $ 100 per month
Sundry $ 200 per month
So, about $1000 per month is a good estimation. Most people can survive with $700-$1000 a month. The key here is to share apartments/houses so that you save on the utilities, fixed charge portion of phone and to some extent on groceries. source: http://www.infozee.com/usa/expenses.htmFor myself, I went to a private institution and lived there. So tuition +room +board was approximately $29,000 per year. I received a scholarship for $8500 per year and a grant of $4500 per year. The other $16,000 per year came in the form of loans split between my parents and myself. Tack on 3 years of graduate school for my Masters degree in Counseling and I am looking at $60,000 that I personally owe (before interest). I am greatly in favor of the idea of not having to pay back the full $60,000 plus interest over a 10-15 year period (which makes the $60,000 turn into more like $90,000-100,000). In addition to that debt, I have to obtain and maintain my license to practice counseling, which there are two levels of and I have to pay someone to supervise me 1 hour per week (which could cost anywhere from $40 to $140 per week) while I accumulate 1900 hours of counseling work (that's about 2 years working full time so 104 weeks ish minimum) to obtain the second level of licensure so I can work with people who have insurance. So it's fair for me to shell out all this money just to help people, but it's ignorant to ask the government to make paying it back a little more reasonable? I call bullshit. /End Rant i lived at home and commuted to school to keep living expenses down. i earned money before college so i wouldnt have to take as many loans out. i worked hard to get scholarships. i worked during college and every summer to keep loans manageable. i now have loans that i can repay with my job, and i would not benefit at all from the loan forgiveness because i kept expenses down and made sure i could pay back all my student debt. is it fair for me to have to pay extra taxes because you decided to go to an expensive private institution? is it fair for me to have to pay extra taxes because you decided to live on campus at extra expense to yourself? is it ignorant of me to expect that my tax money wont be used to subsidize people's choice of not managing their finances appropriately? Because everyone can find a job right now (I was able to through junior+senior years of HS, but many others tried, hard, and failed). you're also assuming that people can get into a college close enough to let them commute that isn't community college etc etc. Not to mention that you're condemning people for going to a private university that may offer them a superior education... Not everyone's going to be able to go through college as cheaply and successfully as you, and implying that people are stupid and/or lazy for doing so is dumb, as is suggesting that everyone should have to go through the tough shit you did cause it would be "fair". Your tax money isn't going to subsidize "laziness", it's subsidizing people who either aren't as lucky as you or go/went to universities that charged more than yours.
If you can't afford it then you can't afford it. Since when has there been some absurd notion that you're entitled to go to a private college because it offers superior education? I don't agree with the public education one, but I can understand it at least. But you're arguing you should be heavily subsidized to go a private institution? What?
If you can't get into a college close enough to commute to, then ya fucked up in high school, didn't you? And if you fucked up in high school, then your choice is community college, with eventually transferring. Those are your options, not "fuck it, I can't afford it but am going to do it anyways and then bitch when I accumulate all these expenses."
Implying that people are lazy.... ha... people are lazy in teh vast majority of these cases. There's no reason to subsidize people who chose to go to a uni when they knew they couldn't afford it ahead of time. I don't understand the notion that people should be entitled to attend whatever institution they want, simply because they want to.
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Someone posted a great video in another thread that talked about the issues with our education system. One of the problems is the increased vocationalized assembly line with a graduation (see: manufacture) date, rather than liberal arts and critical thinking, preparing students for jobs that do not exist, and filled with corporate interest influence. It is no wonder that such a system is seen as overpriced- I would ask for a refund too.
And Talin is right. American society is all about me, myself, and I. Greater good and educated society be damned.
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On April 18 2012 18:34 screamingpalm wrote:
Someone posted a great video in another thread that talked about the issues with our education system. One of the problems is the increased vocationalized assembly line with a graduation (see: manufacture) date, rather than liberal arts and critical thinking, preparing students for jobs that do not exist, and filled with corporate interest influence. It is no wonder that such a system is seen as overpriced- I would ask for a refund too.
And Talin is right. American society is all about me, myself, and I. Greater good and educated society be damned.
lol. All I've seen is advocation for punishing those who did their work, while rewarding those who didn't. It depends how you look at it. Then again, that's how I've been trained to look at it, as a Business Economics major.
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On April 18 2012 18:26 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 18:19 Talin wrote:On April 18 2012 17:26 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 18 2012 16:42 NEOtheONE wrote:Commence Rant/ Education is grossly overcharged. It is utterly preposterous what we have to pay on average here in America. Expenses, Tuition Fee & Living Costs
US Universities fall under two major categories: public (state supported), and private (independent) institutions. International students’ tuition expenses at state schools are based on nonresident costs, which are still usually less expensive than those of private universities. It’s important to note that the cost of a program in a US school does not necessarily affect its quality. A brief idea can be got from the following table:
University Type Average Tuition Fees
(annual in U.S. Dollars)
Private Institutions (High Cost) $ 25,000
Private Institutions (Low Cost) $ 15,000
State Institutions (High Cost) $ 20,000
State Institutions (Low Cost) $ 10,000
The tuition fee is different for different universities and varies widely with courses. It can vary from as low as $ 5000 a year for state universities to as much as $ 30000 per annum for some private universities. For more specific details, please contact the universities.
Living Expenses
The approximate annual living expenses are about $10,000, which includes accommodation as well as other daily expenses. However, the expenses are different for different people depending on the lifestyles and this is just a rough idea. The main expenses can be split up as:
Rent $ 400 per month
(you can live alone with that amount in a place like Auburn or share an apartment with 6 people in NY)
Groceries $ 100 per month
Utilities $ 100 per month
Phone $ 100 per month
Sundry $ 200 per month
So, about $1000 per month is a good estimation. Most people can survive with $700-$1000 a month. The key here is to share apartments/houses so that you save on the utilities, fixed charge portion of phone and to some extent on groceries. source: http://www.infozee.com/usa/expenses.htmFor myself, I went to a private institution and lived there. So tuition +room +board was approximately $29,000 per year. I received a scholarship for $8500 per year and a grant of $4500 per year. The other $16,000 per year came in the form of loans split between my parents and myself. Tack on 3 years of graduate school for my Masters degree in Counseling and I am looking at $60,000 that I personally owe (before interest). I am greatly in favor of the idea of not having to pay back the full $60,000 plus interest over a 10-15 year period (which makes the $60,000 turn into more like $90,000-100,000). In addition to that debt, I have to obtain and maintain my license to practice counseling, which there are two levels of and I have to pay someone to supervise me 1 hour per week (which could cost anywhere from $40 to $140 per week) while I accumulate 1900 hours of counseling work (that's about 2 years working full time so 104 weeks ish minimum) to obtain the second level of licensure so I can work with people who have insurance. So it's fair for me to shell out all this money just to help people, but it's ignorant to ask the government to make paying it back a little more reasonable? I call bullshit. /End Rant i lived at home and commuted to school to keep living expenses down. i earned money before college so i wouldnt have to take as many loans out. i worked hard to get scholarships. i worked during college and every summer to keep loans manageable. i now have loans that i can repay with my job, and i would not benefit at all from the loan forgiveness because i kept expenses down and made sure i could pay back all my student debt. is it fair for me to have to pay extra taxes because you decided to go to an expensive private institution? is it fair for me to have to pay extra taxes because you decided to live on campus at extra expense to yourself? is it ignorant of me to expect that my tax money wont be used to subsidize people's choice of not managing their finances appropriately? It's so depressive to see that so many people have this "I went through this so I want everyone else to have to go through the same thing as well" attitude these days. One would think that after you've been through all that and had to make so many sacrifices to get what you want, you would strive to make sure other people - or at the very least future generations - do not have to go through the same thing or at least have it a LITTLE bit easier, rather than condemning them to the same fate due to some misguided concept of fairness. It's "I was responsible and you weren't, so why should I have to pay for you being irresponsible?" You say it like it's sacrifice. It's not sacrificing to do what he did. It's what everyone should do unless they can afford to do otherwise. Sure, it'd be nice if it wasn't like that, but you want him to pay higher taxes to support other people's laziness? Pfft. I'm completely against it.
It's absolutely a sacrifice to have to go through what he did during studies.
It's a sacrifice in the sense that you sacrifice a LOT of things that make up for a reasonable, healthy life by having to work during studies. You sacrifice time spent with your family, you sacrifice time for hobbies, recreation, socializing, traveling, obtaining a broader education, developing different skills, working on personal projects - hell, many kids are even lucky if having to work does not cut into their grades in the first place (in fact it almost certainly will).
All of these components are absolutely necessary for an individual to set foundations for a healthy life, and for someone to actually grow into a socially aware and responsible individual. A person who has had to work and study since they were 15 pays a huge price, and I'm not talking about money. Don't get me wrong, I personally do admire such people and their commitment, and it's a massive personal accomplishment for them that they can definitely be proud of - but to say it's not a sacrifice is plainly wrong.
It's an IMMENSE sacrifice, one that arguably you can't ever make up for in the future. To say that everyone "should" have to do it unless they (their parents) can afford otherwise is even more damning.
And secondly, can we please get over calling people who don't work 12 hours a day "lazy"? If that is the definition of laziness, then laziness is good. Excessive working hours and commitments are physically, mentally AND socially unhealthy. Stop looking at it as some sort of highest value and an ideal everyone should uphold, because it is certainly not that, and it has horrible consequences for a society.
|
Rather than thinking "irresponsible people are getting benefits for being irresponsible", you should think "responsible people like myself won't have to go through the same things."
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On April 18 2012 19:23 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 18:26 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 18 2012 18:19 Talin wrote:On April 18 2012 17:26 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 18 2012 16:42 NEOtheONE wrote:Commence Rant/ Education is grossly overcharged. It is utterly preposterous what we have to pay on average here in America. Expenses, Tuition Fee & Living Costs
US Universities fall under two major categories: public (state supported), and private (independent) institutions. International students’ tuition expenses at state schools are based on nonresident costs, which are still usually less expensive than those of private universities. It’s important to note that the cost of a program in a US school does not necessarily affect its quality. A brief idea can be got from the following table:
University Type Average Tuition Fees
(annual in U.S. Dollars)
Private Institutions (High Cost) $ 25,000
Private Institutions (Low Cost) $ 15,000
State Institutions (High Cost) $ 20,000
State Institutions (Low Cost) $ 10,000
The tuition fee is different for different universities and varies widely with courses. It can vary from as low as $ 5000 a year for state universities to as much as $ 30000 per annum for some private universities. For more specific details, please contact the universities.
Living Expenses
The approximate annual living expenses are about $10,000, which includes accommodation as well as other daily expenses. However, the expenses are different for different people depending on the lifestyles and this is just a rough idea. The main expenses can be split up as:
Rent $ 400 per month
(you can live alone with that amount in a place like Auburn or share an apartment with 6 people in NY)
Groceries $ 100 per month
Utilities $ 100 per month
Phone $ 100 per month
Sundry $ 200 per month
So, about $1000 per month is a good estimation. Most people can survive with $700-$1000 a month. The key here is to share apartments/houses so that you save on the utilities, fixed charge portion of phone and to some extent on groceries. source: http://www.infozee.com/usa/expenses.htmFor myself, I went to a private institution and lived there. So tuition +room +board was approximately $29,000 per year. I received a scholarship for $8500 per year and a grant of $4500 per year. The other $16,000 per year came in the form of loans split between my parents and myself. Tack on 3 years of graduate school for my Masters degree in Counseling and I am looking at $60,000 that I personally owe (before interest). I am greatly in favor of the idea of not having to pay back the full $60,000 plus interest over a 10-15 year period (which makes the $60,000 turn into more like $90,000-100,000). In addition to that debt, I have to obtain and maintain my license to practice counseling, which there are two levels of and I have to pay someone to supervise me 1 hour per week (which could cost anywhere from $40 to $140 per week) while I accumulate 1900 hours of counseling work (that's about 2 years working full time so 104 weeks ish minimum) to obtain the second level of licensure so I can work with people who have insurance. So it's fair for me to shell out all this money just to help people, but it's ignorant to ask the government to make paying it back a little more reasonable? I call bullshit. /End Rant i lived at home and commuted to school to keep living expenses down. i earned money before college so i wouldnt have to take as many loans out. i worked hard to get scholarships. i worked during college and every summer to keep loans manageable. i now have loans that i can repay with my job, and i would not benefit at all from the loan forgiveness because i kept expenses down and made sure i could pay back all my student debt. is it fair for me to have to pay extra taxes because you decided to go to an expensive private institution? is it fair for me to have to pay extra taxes because you decided to live on campus at extra expense to yourself? is it ignorant of me to expect that my tax money wont be used to subsidize people's choice of not managing their finances appropriately? It's so depressive to see that so many people have this "I went through this so I want everyone else to have to go through the same thing as well" attitude these days. One would think that after you've been through all that and had to make so many sacrifices to get what you want, you would strive to make sure other people - or at the very least future generations - do not have to go through the same thing or at least have it a LITTLE bit easier, rather than condemning them to the same fate due to some misguided concept of fairness. It's "I was responsible and you weren't, so why should I have to pay for you being irresponsible?" You say it like it's sacrifice. It's not sacrificing to do what he did. It's what everyone should do unless they can afford to do otherwise. Sure, it'd be nice if it wasn't like that, but you want him to pay higher taxes to support other people's laziness? Pfft. I'm completely against it. It's absolutely a sacrifice to have to go through what he did during studies. It's a sacrifice in the sense that you sacrifice a LOT of things that make up for a reasonable, healthy life by having to work during studies. You sacrifice time spent with your family, you sacrifice time for hobbies, recreation, socializing, traveling, obtaining a broader education, developing different skills, working on personal projects - hell, many kids are even lucky if having to work does not cut into their grades in the first place (in fact it almost certainly will). All of these components are absolutely necessary for an individual to set foundations for a healthy life, and for someone to actually grow into a socially aware and responsible individual. A person who has had to work and study since they were 15 pays a huge price, and I'm not talking about money. Don't get me wrong, I personally do admire such people and their commitment, and it's a massive personal accomplishment for them that they can definitely be proud of - but to say it's not a sacrifice is plainly wrong. It's an IMMENSE sacrifice, one that arguably you can't ever make up for in the future. To say that everyone "should" have to do it unless they (their parents) can afford otherwise is even more damning. And secondly, can we please get over calling people who don't work 12 hours a day "lazy"? If that is the definition of laziness, then laziness is good. Excessive working hours and commitments are physically, mentally AND socially unhealthy. Stop looking at it as some sort of highest value and an ideal everyone should uphold, because it is certainly not that, and it has horrible consequences for a society.
To a lot of people it's not so much the attitude (even if they say it) that I work twelve hours and you should too, it's that people should be compensated based on their productivity and value. In other words, you shouldn't be living a high standard of life if you don't put in the effort, unless someone wants to voluntarily subsidize you; that (Welfare - Entitlement) sort of system is parasitic and harmful. That's what a majority of people have a problem with.
As far as what constitutes a healthy lifestyle that is subjective and up to each individual. Lots of people would call the lot of us who frequent a GAMING site, very unhealthy, and sure, it may be for them, but values are subjective. In any event, consumpton = productivity - value, is the ideal. Those that are well to do should be encouraged towards philanthraphy and other such endeavors. That's freedom. Let's try and steer away from the coercion and violence that are State 'solutions', shall we?
|
On April 18 2012 19:36 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 19:23 Talin wrote:On April 18 2012 18:26 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 18 2012 18:19 Talin wrote:On April 18 2012 17:26 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 18 2012 16:42 NEOtheONE wrote:Commence Rant/ Education is grossly overcharged. It is utterly preposterous what we have to pay on average here in America. Expenses, Tuition Fee & Living Costs
US Universities fall under two major categories: public (state supported), and private (independent) institutions. International students’ tuition expenses at state schools are based on nonresident costs, which are still usually less expensive than those of private universities. It’s important to note that the cost of a program in a US school does not necessarily affect its quality. A brief idea can be got from the following table:
University Type Average Tuition Fees
(annual in U.S. Dollars)
Private Institutions (High Cost) $ 25,000
Private Institutions (Low Cost) $ 15,000
State Institutions (High Cost) $ 20,000
State Institutions (Low Cost) $ 10,000
The tuition fee is different for different universities and varies widely with courses. It can vary from as low as $ 5000 a year for state universities to as much as $ 30000 per annum for some private universities. For more specific details, please contact the universities.
Living Expenses
The approximate annual living expenses are about $10,000, which includes accommodation as well as other daily expenses. However, the expenses are different for different people depending on the lifestyles and this is just a rough idea. The main expenses can be split up as:
Rent $ 400 per month
(you can live alone with that amount in a place like Auburn or share an apartment with 6 people in NY)
Groceries $ 100 per month
Utilities $ 100 per month
Phone $ 100 per month
Sundry $ 200 per month
So, about $1000 per month is a good estimation. Most people can survive with $700-$1000 a month. The key here is to share apartments/houses so that you save on the utilities, fixed charge portion of phone and to some extent on groceries. source: http://www.infozee.com/usa/expenses.htmFor myself, I went to a private institution and lived there. So tuition +room +board was approximately $29,000 per year. I received a scholarship for $8500 per year and a grant of $4500 per year. The other $16,000 per year came in the form of loans split between my parents and myself. Tack on 3 years of graduate school for my Masters degree in Counseling and I am looking at $60,000 that I personally owe (before interest). I am greatly in favor of the idea of not having to pay back the full $60,000 plus interest over a 10-15 year period (which makes the $60,000 turn into more like $90,000-100,000). In addition to that debt, I have to obtain and maintain my license to practice counseling, which there are two levels of and I have to pay someone to supervise me 1 hour per week (which could cost anywhere from $40 to $140 per week) while I accumulate 1900 hours of counseling work (that's about 2 years working full time so 104 weeks ish minimum) to obtain the second level of licensure so I can work with people who have insurance. So it's fair for me to shell out all this money just to help people, but it's ignorant to ask the government to make paying it back a little more reasonable? I call bullshit. /End Rant i lived at home and commuted to school to keep living expenses down. i earned money before college so i wouldnt have to take as many loans out. i worked hard to get scholarships. i worked during college and every summer to keep loans manageable. i now have loans that i can repay with my job, and i would not benefit at all from the loan forgiveness because i kept expenses down and made sure i could pay back all my student debt. is it fair for me to have to pay extra taxes because you decided to go to an expensive private institution? is it fair for me to have to pay extra taxes because you decided to live on campus at extra expense to yourself? is it ignorant of me to expect that my tax money wont be used to subsidize people's choice of not managing their finances appropriately? It's so depressive to see that so many people have this "I went through this so I want everyone else to have to go through the same thing as well" attitude these days. One would think that after you've been through all that and had to make so many sacrifices to get what you want, you would strive to make sure other people - or at the very least future generations - do not have to go through the same thing or at least have it a LITTLE bit easier, rather than condemning them to the same fate due to some misguided concept of fairness. It's "I was responsible and you weren't, so why should I have to pay for you being irresponsible?" You say it like it's sacrifice. It's not sacrificing to do what he did. It's what everyone should do unless they can afford to do otherwise. Sure, it'd be nice if it wasn't like that, but you want him to pay higher taxes to support other people's laziness? Pfft. I'm completely against it. It's absolutely a sacrifice to have to go through what he did during studies. It's a sacrifice in the sense that you sacrifice a LOT of things that make up for a reasonable, healthy life by having to work during studies. You sacrifice time spent with your family, you sacrifice time for hobbies, recreation, socializing, traveling, obtaining a broader education, developing different skills, working on personal projects - hell, many kids are even lucky if having to work does not cut into their grades in the first place (in fact it almost certainly will). All of these components are absolutely necessary for an individual to set foundations for a healthy life, and for someone to actually grow into a socially aware and responsible individual. A person who has had to work and study since they were 15 pays a huge price, and I'm not talking about money. Don't get me wrong, I personally do admire such people and their commitment, and it's a massive personal accomplishment for them that they can definitely be proud of - but to say it's not a sacrifice is plainly wrong. It's an IMMENSE sacrifice, one that arguably you can't ever make up for in the future. To say that everyone "should" have to do it unless they (their parents) can afford otherwise is even more damning. And secondly, can we please get over calling people who don't work 12 hours a day "lazy"? If that is the definition of laziness, then laziness is good. Excessive working hours and commitments are physically, mentally AND socially unhealthy. Stop looking at it as some sort of highest value and an ideal everyone should uphold, because it is certainly not that, and it has horrible consequences for a society. To a lot of people it's not so much the attitude (even if they say it) that I work twelve hours and you should too, it's that people should be compensated based on their productivity and value. In other words, you shouldn't be living a high standard of life if you don't put in the effort, unless someone wants to voluntarily subsidize you; that (Welfare - Entitlement) sort of system is parasitic and harmful. That's what a majority of people have a problem with. As far as what constitutes a healthy lifestyle that is subjective and up to each individual. Lots of people would call the lot of us who frequent a GAMING site, very unhealthy, and sure, it may be for them, but values are subjective. In any event, consumpton = productivity - value, is the ideal. Those that are well to do should be encouraged towards philanthraphy and other such endeavors. That's freedom. Let's try and steer away from the coercion and violence that are State 'solutions', shall we?
And I suppose only the rich shall be allowed to reproduce, etc.
Now what about those of us who are disabled, and not just 'lazy'? Shall we aim low then (unfortunately my productivity isn't quite what it was in my prime)? Doesn't sound like freedom to me... serfdom perhaps.
|
On April 18 2012 19:42 screamingpalm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 19:36 Wegandi wrote:On April 18 2012 19:23 Talin wrote:On April 18 2012 18:26 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 18 2012 18:19 Talin wrote:On April 18 2012 17:26 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 18 2012 16:42 NEOtheONE wrote:Commence Rant/ Education is grossly overcharged. It is utterly preposterous what we have to pay on average here in America. Expenses, Tuition Fee & Living Costs
US Universities fall under two major categories: public (state supported), and private (independent) institutions. International students’ tuition expenses at state schools are based on nonresident costs, which are still usually less expensive than those of private universities. It’s important to note that the cost of a program in a US school does not necessarily affect its quality. A brief idea can be got from the following table:
University Type Average Tuition Fees
(annual in U.S. Dollars)
Private Institutions (High Cost) $ 25,000
Private Institutions (Low Cost) $ 15,000
State Institutions (High Cost) $ 20,000
State Institutions (Low Cost) $ 10,000
The tuition fee is different for different universities and varies widely with courses. It can vary from as low as $ 5000 a year for state universities to as much as $ 30000 per annum for some private universities. For more specific details, please contact the universities.
Living Expenses
The approximate annual living expenses are about $10,000, which includes accommodation as well as other daily expenses. However, the expenses are different for different people depending on the lifestyles and this is just a rough idea. The main expenses can be split up as:
Rent $ 400 per month
(you can live alone with that amount in a place like Auburn or share an apartment with 6 people in NY)
Groceries $ 100 per month
Utilities $ 100 per month
Phone $ 100 per month
Sundry $ 200 per month
So, about $1000 per month is a good estimation. Most people can survive with $700-$1000 a month. The key here is to share apartments/houses so that you save on the utilities, fixed charge portion of phone and to some extent on groceries. source: http://www.infozee.com/usa/expenses.htmFor myself, I went to a private institution and lived there. So tuition +room +board was approximately $29,000 per year. I received a scholarship for $8500 per year and a grant of $4500 per year. The other $16,000 per year came in the form of loans split between my parents and myself. Tack on 3 years of graduate school for my Masters degree in Counseling and I am looking at $60,000 that I personally owe (before interest). I am greatly in favor of the idea of not having to pay back the full $60,000 plus interest over a 10-15 year period (which makes the $60,000 turn into more like $90,000-100,000). In addition to that debt, I have to obtain and maintain my license to practice counseling, which there are two levels of and I have to pay someone to supervise me 1 hour per week (which could cost anywhere from $40 to $140 per week) while I accumulate 1900 hours of counseling work (that's about 2 years working full time so 104 weeks ish minimum) to obtain the second level of licensure so I can work with people who have insurance. So it's fair for me to shell out all this money just to help people, but it's ignorant to ask the government to make paying it back a little more reasonable? I call bullshit. /End Rant i lived at home and commuted to school to keep living expenses down. i earned money before college so i wouldnt have to take as many loans out. i worked hard to get scholarships. i worked during college and every summer to keep loans manageable. i now have loans that i can repay with my job, and i would not benefit at all from the loan forgiveness because i kept expenses down and made sure i could pay back all my student debt. is it fair for me to have to pay extra taxes because you decided to go to an expensive private institution? is it fair for me to have to pay extra taxes because you decided to live on campus at extra expense to yourself? is it ignorant of me to expect that my tax money wont be used to subsidize people's choice of not managing their finances appropriately? It's so depressive to see that so many people have this "I went through this so I want everyone else to have to go through the same thing as well" attitude these days. One would think that after you've been through all that and had to make so many sacrifices to get what you want, you would strive to make sure other people - or at the very least future generations - do not have to go through the same thing or at least have it a LITTLE bit easier, rather than condemning them to the same fate due to some misguided concept of fairness. It's "I was responsible and you weren't, so why should I have to pay for you being irresponsible?" You say it like it's sacrifice. It's not sacrificing to do what he did. It's what everyone should do unless they can afford to do otherwise. Sure, it'd be nice if it wasn't like that, but you want him to pay higher taxes to support other people's laziness? Pfft. I'm completely against it. It's absolutely a sacrifice to have to go through what he did during studies. It's a sacrifice in the sense that you sacrifice a LOT of things that make up for a reasonable, healthy life by having to work during studies. You sacrifice time spent with your family, you sacrifice time for hobbies, recreation, socializing, traveling, obtaining a broader education, developing different skills, working on personal projects - hell, many kids are even lucky if having to work does not cut into their grades in the first place (in fact it almost certainly will). All of these components are absolutely necessary for an individual to set foundations for a healthy life, and for someone to actually grow into a socially aware and responsible individual. A person who has had to work and study since they were 15 pays a huge price, and I'm not talking about money. Don't get me wrong, I personally do admire such people and their commitment, and it's a massive personal accomplishment for them that they can definitely be proud of - but to say it's not a sacrifice is plainly wrong. It's an IMMENSE sacrifice, one that arguably you can't ever make up for in the future. To say that everyone "should" have to do it unless they (their parents) can afford otherwise is even more damning. And secondly, can we please get over calling people who don't work 12 hours a day "lazy"? If that is the definition of laziness, then laziness is good. Excessive working hours and commitments are physically, mentally AND socially unhealthy. Stop looking at it as some sort of highest value and an ideal everyone should uphold, because it is certainly not that, and it has horrible consequences for a society. To a lot of people it's not so much the attitude (even if they say it) that I work twelve hours and you should too, it's that people should be compensated based on their productivity and value. In other words, you shouldn't be living a high standard of life if you don't put in the effort, unless someone wants to voluntarily subsidize you; that (Welfare - Entitlement) sort of system is parasitic and harmful. That's what a majority of people have a problem with. As far as what constitutes a healthy lifestyle that is subjective and up to each individual. Lots of people would call the lot of us who frequent a GAMING site, very unhealthy, and sure, it may be for them, but values are subjective. In any event, consumpton = productivity - value, is the ideal. Those that are well to do should be encouraged towards philanthraphy and other such endeavors. That's freedom. Let's try and steer away from the coercion and violence that are State 'solutions', shall we? And I suppose only the rich shall be allowed to reproduce, etc. Now what about those of us who are disabled, and not just 'lazy'? Shall we aim low then (unfortunately my productivity isn't quite what it was in my prime)? Doesn't sound like freedom to me... serfdom perhaps.
You still don't understand. The State enriches and enables the 'rich' whatever your definition is of it. Liberty is the most equalizing environment if you happen to value a more egalitarian society. There are no privileges, no immunities, no guarantees. Free to fail, or succeed, make money and lose money, innovate, compete, etc. Those 'rich' you don't like, well, they sure love the folks who write them competition crippling regulations, licensining, permits, monopolies, guaranteed income (Auto Insurance, etc.), etc.
The entire regulatory environment was born out of the 'need' for a select few Industrials to destroy their competition that was making them become irrelevant. I don't like the parasites at the top, or the bottom, they're both thieves. I know it's antiquated, but, yes folks should have to work to consume.
Anyone is free to reproduce, as long as you can afford it. That's common sense. Why should we be subsidizing a new generation of folk who only know Welfarism? That's dependancy on the State. Booker T. Washington is probably rolling in his grave.
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What they REALLY need to do is SUBSIDIZE EDUCATION so shit is way cheaper... I went to College for 3 years and finished my program and I was able to pay it all off while living at home. Basically if you want to become a Doctor, Engineer, or Lawyer, your parents need to be insanely rich at the moment cause even living in Canada living at home you're looking at upwards of $100,000 just to complete the program. My program was only about $15,000 all said and done which is very cheap and it wasn't a bad program by any means. I can only imagine how much more it would be in the US... the international students had to pay over $10,000 a year to go to my school.
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On April 18 2012 19:51 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 19:42 screamingpalm wrote:On April 18 2012 19:36 Wegandi wrote:On April 18 2012 19:23 Talin wrote:On April 18 2012 18:26 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 18 2012 18:19 Talin wrote:On April 18 2012 17:26 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 18 2012 16:42 NEOtheONE wrote:Commence Rant/ Education is grossly overcharged. It is utterly preposterous what we have to pay on average here in America. Expenses, Tuition Fee & Living Costs
US Universities fall under two major categories: public (state supported), and private (independent) institutions. International students’ tuition expenses at state schools are based on nonresident costs, which are still usually less expensive than those of private universities. It’s important to note that the cost of a program in a US school does not necessarily affect its quality. A brief idea can be got from the following table:
University Type Average Tuition Fees
(annual in U.S. Dollars)
Private Institutions (High Cost) $ 25,000
Private Institutions (Low Cost) $ 15,000
State Institutions (High Cost) $ 20,000
State Institutions (Low Cost) $ 10,000
The tuition fee is different for different universities and varies widely with courses. It can vary from as low as $ 5000 a year for state universities to as much as $ 30000 per annum for some private universities. For more specific details, please contact the universities.
Living Expenses
The approximate annual living expenses are about $10,000, which includes accommodation as well as other daily expenses. However, the expenses are different for different people depending on the lifestyles and this is just a rough idea. The main expenses can be split up as:
Rent $ 400 per month
(you can live alone with that amount in a place like Auburn or share an apartment with 6 people in NY)
Groceries $ 100 per month
Utilities $ 100 per month
Phone $ 100 per month
Sundry $ 200 per month
So, about $1000 per month is a good estimation. Most people can survive with $700-$1000 a month. The key here is to share apartments/houses so that you save on the utilities, fixed charge portion of phone and to some extent on groceries. source: http://www.infozee.com/usa/expenses.htmFor myself, I went to a private institution and lived there. So tuition +room +board was approximately $29,000 per year. I received a scholarship for $8500 per year and a grant of $4500 per year. The other $16,000 per year came in the form of loans split between my parents and myself. Tack on 3 years of graduate school for my Masters degree in Counseling and I am looking at $60,000 that I personally owe (before interest). I am greatly in favor of the idea of not having to pay back the full $60,000 plus interest over a 10-15 year period (which makes the $60,000 turn into more like $90,000-100,000). In addition to that debt, I have to obtain and maintain my license to practice counseling, which there are two levels of and I have to pay someone to supervise me 1 hour per week (which could cost anywhere from $40 to $140 per week) while I accumulate 1900 hours of counseling work (that's about 2 years working full time so 104 weeks ish minimum) to obtain the second level of licensure so I can work with people who have insurance. So it's fair for me to shell out all this money just to help people, but it's ignorant to ask the government to make paying it back a little more reasonable? I call bullshit. /End Rant i lived at home and commuted to school to keep living expenses down. i earned money before college so i wouldnt have to take as many loans out. i worked hard to get scholarships. i worked during college and every summer to keep loans manageable. i now have loans that i can repay with my job, and i would not benefit at all from the loan forgiveness because i kept expenses down and made sure i could pay back all my student debt. is it fair for me to have to pay extra taxes because you decided to go to an expensive private institution? is it fair for me to have to pay extra taxes because you decided to live on campus at extra expense to yourself? is it ignorant of me to expect that my tax money wont be used to subsidize people's choice of not managing their finances appropriately? It's so depressive to see that so many people have this "I went through this so I want everyone else to have to go through the same thing as well" attitude these days. One would think that after you've been through all that and had to make so many sacrifices to get what you want, you would strive to make sure other people - or at the very least future generations - do not have to go through the same thing or at least have it a LITTLE bit easier, rather than condemning them to the same fate due to some misguided concept of fairness. It's "I was responsible and you weren't, so why should I have to pay for you being irresponsible?" You say it like it's sacrifice. It's not sacrificing to do what he did. It's what everyone should do unless they can afford to do otherwise. Sure, it'd be nice if it wasn't like that, but you want him to pay higher taxes to support other people's laziness? Pfft. I'm completely against it. It's absolutely a sacrifice to have to go through what he did during studies. It's a sacrifice in the sense that you sacrifice a LOT of things that make up for a reasonable, healthy life by having to work during studies. You sacrifice time spent with your family, you sacrifice time for hobbies, recreation, socializing, traveling, obtaining a broader education, developing different skills, working on personal projects - hell, many kids are even lucky if having to work does not cut into their grades in the first place (in fact it almost certainly will). All of these components are absolutely necessary for an individual to set foundations for a healthy life, and for someone to actually grow into a socially aware and responsible individual. A person who has had to work and study since they were 15 pays a huge price, and I'm not talking about money. Don't get me wrong, I personally do admire such people and their commitment, and it's a massive personal accomplishment for them that they can definitely be proud of - but to say it's not a sacrifice is plainly wrong. It's an IMMENSE sacrifice, one that arguably you can't ever make up for in the future. To say that everyone "should" have to do it unless they (their parents) can afford otherwise is even more damning. And secondly, can we please get over calling people who don't work 12 hours a day "lazy"? If that is the definition of laziness, then laziness is good. Excessive working hours and commitments are physically, mentally AND socially unhealthy. Stop looking at it as some sort of highest value and an ideal everyone should uphold, because it is certainly not that, and it has horrible consequences for a society. To a lot of people it's not so much the attitude (even if they say it) that I work twelve hours and you should too, it's that people should be compensated based on their productivity and value. In other words, you shouldn't be living a high standard of life if you don't put in the effort, unless someone wants to voluntarily subsidize you; that (Welfare - Entitlement) sort of system is parasitic and harmful. That's what a majority of people have a problem with. As far as what constitutes a healthy lifestyle that is subjective and up to each individual. Lots of people would call the lot of us who frequent a GAMING site, very unhealthy, and sure, it may be for them, but values are subjective. In any event, consumpton = productivity - value, is the ideal. Those that are well to do should be encouraged towards philanthraphy and other such endeavors. That's freedom. Let's try and steer away from the coercion and violence that are State 'solutions', shall we? And I suppose only the rich shall be allowed to reproduce, etc. Now what about those of us who are disabled, and not just 'lazy'? Shall we aim low then (unfortunately my productivity isn't quite what it was in my prime)? Doesn't sound like freedom to me... serfdom perhaps. You still don't understand. The State enriches and enables the 'rich' whatever your definition is of it. Liberty is the most equalizing environment if you happen to value a more egalitarian society. There are no privileges, no immunities, no guarantees. Free to fail, or succeed, make money and lose money, innovate, compete, etc. Those 'rich' you don't like, well, they sure love the folks who write them competition crippling regulations, licensining, permits, monopolies, guaranteed income (Auto Insurance, etc.), etc. The entire regulatory environment was born out of the 'need' for a select few Industrials to destroy their competition that was making them become irrelevant. I don't like the parasites at the top, or the bottom, they're both thieves. I know it's antiquated, but, yes folks should have to work to consume. Anyone is free to reproduce, as long as you can afford it. That's common sense. Why should we be subsidizing a new generation of folk who only know Welfarism? That's dependancy on the State. Booker T. Washington is probably rolling in his grave.
Ah I had you pegged all wrong... pro-choice then? 
I never said I don't like the 'rich'. It's the greedy I don't care much for. 
So since my disability keeps me from being able to work, I should just simply not consume? Nice to know.
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Just to make everyone understand where I'm coming from, here's a short back story on me:
I have both a Swiss and a US passport. My father is from the Philadelphia area and graduated form Penn state. My mother is (for the purpose of this discussion, it's somewhat more complicated) swiss.
Since I've been born, my parents and grandparents have set up, maintained and paid into a trust fund for my college education. It's not a huge amount, but it's something. I know a lot of people don't have that luxury.
I currently study CS at the Swiss Polytechnical institute, which is currently the best ranked german speaking and best ranked university in mainland Europe and generally in the top15 in the world. It's essentially an ivy league level education (or very close to it).
Do you know how much I pay per semester? About 900 dollars. Currently there's talk about doubling it to a staggering 1800 and everyone in the country has been running amok about how much that is. (The rest gets paid for by the canton of Zurich and the country).
So let me ask you a question: for a similar education in the US without scholarships, how much would you pay? 10 times that? 20 times that?
But for some reason, Switzerland isn't dying to debt, the way the US is. That should give you some clue about how completely and utterly fucked the US education system is (oh and by the way, Swiss high school education is also ranked quite highly).
And yet only about 20% of Swiss teenagers have a full 12 years of School, the amount graduating from university is also around that number.
I've asked myself questions about this for quite some time and it took me long enough to find the central difference between Switzerland and almost every other country.
The Swiss system offers a valued and functioning education, without the need to first go to 12 years of school and then another 3-9 years of university: apprenticeship.
Most Swiss people did an apprenticeship starting at 16, so they worked for a small wage while learning only very applied things in their remaining classes. After that they start working around 20-21 - without any debt. (Later many of them go to an applied university, but that's another point).
Because there is no need to stay in some form of school until 21+ and thus no student loans to pay off, the entire system is massively stabilized by a large - and specialized - working force that isn't without hope for future education. This also allows people to tailor their lives to their own desires, I know plenty of people that just said: "I'm not going to school forever, I wanna start working without sacrificing my future!" - and they could.
It isn't an issue purely of studying or student loans; the entire US system needs an overhaul. It just isn't healthy to make everyone that wants to hold even a glimmer of hope for his or her future to go to college, even it is community.
And to the guy above me (wegandi): well, letting the free market sure as hell didn't work for the US, so having the State do something might not be such a terrible idea.
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On April 18 2012 19:55 screamingpalm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 19:51 Wegandi wrote:On April 18 2012 19:42 screamingpalm wrote:On April 18 2012 19:36 Wegandi wrote:On April 18 2012 19:23 Talin wrote:On April 18 2012 18:26 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 18 2012 18:19 Talin wrote:On April 18 2012 17:26 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 18 2012 16:42 NEOtheONE wrote:Commence Rant/ Education is grossly overcharged. It is utterly preposterous what we have to pay on average here in America. Expenses, Tuition Fee & Living Costs
US Universities fall under two major categories: public (state supported), and private (independent) institutions. International students’ tuition expenses at state schools are based on nonresident costs, which are still usually less expensive than those of private universities. It’s important to note that the cost of a program in a US school does not necessarily affect its quality. A brief idea can be got from the following table:
University Type Average Tuition Fees
(annual in U.S. Dollars)
Private Institutions (High Cost) $ 25,000
Private Institutions (Low Cost) $ 15,000
State Institutions (High Cost) $ 20,000
State Institutions (Low Cost) $ 10,000
The tuition fee is different for different universities and varies widely with courses. It can vary from as low as $ 5000 a year for state universities to as much as $ 30000 per annum for some private universities. For more specific details, please contact the universities.
Living Expenses
The approximate annual living expenses are about $10,000, which includes accommodation as well as other daily expenses. However, the expenses are different for different people depending on the lifestyles and this is just a rough idea. The main expenses can be split up as:
Rent $ 400 per month
(you can live alone with that amount in a place like Auburn or share an apartment with 6 people in NY)
Groceries $ 100 per month
Utilities $ 100 per month
Phone $ 100 per month
Sundry $ 200 per month
So, about $1000 per month is a good estimation. Most people can survive with $700-$1000 a month. The key here is to share apartments/houses so that you save on the utilities, fixed charge portion of phone and to some extent on groceries. source: http://www.infozee.com/usa/expenses.htmFor myself, I went to a private institution and lived there. So tuition +room +board was approximately $29,000 per year. I received a scholarship for $8500 per year and a grant of $4500 per year. The other $16,000 per year came in the form of loans split between my parents and myself. Tack on 3 years of graduate school for my Masters degree in Counseling and I am looking at $60,000 that I personally owe (before interest). I am greatly in favor of the idea of not having to pay back the full $60,000 plus interest over a 10-15 year period (which makes the $60,000 turn into more like $90,000-100,000). In addition to that debt, I have to obtain and maintain my license to practice counseling, which there are two levels of and I have to pay someone to supervise me 1 hour per week (which could cost anywhere from $40 to $140 per week) while I accumulate 1900 hours of counseling work (that's about 2 years working full time so 104 weeks ish minimum) to obtain the second level of licensure so I can work with people who have insurance. So it's fair for me to shell out all this money just to help people, but it's ignorant to ask the government to make paying it back a little more reasonable? I call bullshit. /End Rant i lived at home and commuted to school to keep living expenses down. i earned money before college so i wouldnt have to take as many loans out. i worked hard to get scholarships. i worked during college and every summer to keep loans manageable. i now have loans that i can repay with my job, and i would not benefit at all from the loan forgiveness because i kept expenses down and made sure i could pay back all my student debt. is it fair for me to have to pay extra taxes because you decided to go to an expensive private institution? is it fair for me to have to pay extra taxes because you decided to live on campus at extra expense to yourself? is it ignorant of me to expect that my tax money wont be used to subsidize people's choice of not managing their finances appropriately? It's so depressive to see that so many people have this "I went through this so I want everyone else to have to go through the same thing as well" attitude these days. One would think that after you've been through all that and had to make so many sacrifices to get what you want, you would strive to make sure other people - or at the very least future generations - do not have to go through the same thing or at least have it a LITTLE bit easier, rather than condemning them to the same fate due to some misguided concept of fairness. It's "I was responsible and you weren't, so why should I have to pay for you being irresponsible?" You say it like it's sacrifice. It's not sacrificing to do what he did. It's what everyone should do unless they can afford to do otherwise. Sure, it'd be nice if it wasn't like that, but you want him to pay higher taxes to support other people's laziness? Pfft. I'm completely against it. It's absolutely a sacrifice to have to go through what he did during studies. It's a sacrifice in the sense that you sacrifice a LOT of things that make up for a reasonable, healthy life by having to work during studies. You sacrifice time spent with your family, you sacrifice time for hobbies, recreation, socializing, traveling, obtaining a broader education, developing different skills, working on personal projects - hell, many kids are even lucky if having to work does not cut into their grades in the first place (in fact it almost certainly will). All of these components are absolutely necessary for an individual to set foundations for a healthy life, and for someone to actually grow into a socially aware and responsible individual. A person who has had to work and study since they were 15 pays a huge price, and I'm not talking about money. Don't get me wrong, I personally do admire such people and their commitment, and it's a massive personal accomplishment for them that they can definitely be proud of - but to say it's not a sacrifice is plainly wrong. It's an IMMENSE sacrifice, one that arguably you can't ever make up for in the future. To say that everyone "should" have to do it unless they (their parents) can afford otherwise is even more damning. And secondly, can we please get over calling people who don't work 12 hours a day "lazy"? If that is the definition of laziness, then laziness is good. Excessive working hours and commitments are physically, mentally AND socially unhealthy. Stop looking at it as some sort of highest value and an ideal everyone should uphold, because it is certainly not that, and it has horrible consequences for a society. To a lot of people it's not so much the attitude (even if they say it) that I work twelve hours and you should too, it's that people should be compensated based on their productivity and value. In other words, you shouldn't be living a high standard of life if you don't put in the effort, unless someone wants to voluntarily subsidize you; that (Welfare - Entitlement) sort of system is parasitic and harmful. That's what a majority of people have a problem with. As far as what constitutes a healthy lifestyle that is subjective and up to each individual. Lots of people would call the lot of us who frequent a GAMING site, very unhealthy, and sure, it may be for them, but values are subjective. In any event, consumpton = productivity - value, is the ideal. Those that are well to do should be encouraged towards philanthraphy and other such endeavors. That's freedom. Let's try and steer away from the coercion and violence that are State 'solutions', shall we? And I suppose only the rich shall be allowed to reproduce, etc. Now what about those of us who are disabled, and not just 'lazy'? Shall we aim low then (unfortunately my productivity isn't quite what it was in my prime)? Doesn't sound like freedom to me... serfdom perhaps. You still don't understand. The State enriches and enables the 'rich' whatever your definition is of it. Liberty is the most equalizing environment if you happen to value a more egalitarian society. There are no privileges, no immunities, no guarantees. Free to fail, or succeed, make money and lose money, innovate, compete, etc. Those 'rich' you don't like, well, they sure love the folks who write them competition crippling regulations, licensining, permits, monopolies, guaranteed income (Auto Insurance, etc.), etc. The entire regulatory environment was born out of the 'need' for a select few Industrials to destroy their competition that was making them become irrelevant. I don't like the parasites at the top, or the bottom, they're both thieves. I know it's antiquated, but, yes folks should have to work to consume. Anyone is free to reproduce, as long as you can afford it. That's common sense. Why should we be subsidizing a new generation of folk who only know Welfarism? That's dependancy on the State. Booker T. Washington is probably rolling in his grave. Ah I had you pegged all wrong... pro-choice then? I never said I don't like the 'rich'. It's the greedy I don't care much for. So since my disability keeps me from being able to work, I should just simply not consume? Nice to know.
No, I'm not pro-choice, or pro-life. I'm pro-property rights, which puts me in the middle. The woman doesn't have a right to kill the unborn, but neither the unborn have a right to occupy a space which the mother doesn't want. So, the solution is the woman is free to induce early labor and 'evict' the child, and thus, put it up for adoption. This means that as technology progresses so too is the woman's ability to evict sooner.
In any event, I don't mind greedy folk, I just don't like thieves, robbers, and the host of criminal folk.
As far as your disability, my apologies, but that doesn't mean because you got a bad deal in life that some other sap has to work for you without a choice in the matter. Family is there to help each other out, and in the case you have bad luck there, you can search for help by other means, and in the case of disabilities only the severely disabled are unable to work at all. The Welfare State is no subsititute as a means of assistance, because it produces envy, avarice, and lethargy amongst society. It ain't limited to the folk who truly are in need of assistance. The Welfare State primarily benefits the extremely wealthy and the folk who only vote your property, as well as a whole host of societal engineering by meglomaniacs. No thanks.
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Working long hours continuously is fucking bad for yourself and society just look at Japan and their salarymen culture. Some of the brightest and hardworking friends I know burnt out in less than one year working M&A at a BBIB.
It's terrible how graduates are treated as well, when you finally climbed over the corpses of the hundred other applicants to get into that job that you want you are put on absolutely shit hours with crappier pay to match. So before any of you older generation people (basically your generation fucked the global economy up into what it is now) say that you guys had to pay your own way through college ask yourself this.
Did you guys compete with 100+ people for a single graduate position? And if by some miracle of god you guys got it did you work hours like 10am-11pm whilst paying back a student loan that is magnitudes larger than what you had to pay and trying to secure a property (or just rent for that matter) in a market full of bloated overpriced houses that you guys drove up?
Sorry if I sounded a bit pissed, it just really irritates me when older people go "back in my day..." and pretend the younger generations have it so easy and just want to cruise through life.
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On April 18 2012 18:51 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 18:34 screamingpalm wrote:
Someone posted a great video in another thread that talked about the issues with our education system. One of the problems is the increased vocationalized assembly line with a graduation (see: manufacture) date, rather than liberal arts and critical thinking, preparing students for jobs that do not exist, and filled with corporate interest influence. It is no wonder that such a system is seen as overpriced- I would ask for a refund too.
And Talin is right. American society is all about me, myself, and I. Greater good and educated society be damned. lol. All I've seen is advocation for punishing those who did their work, while rewarding those who didn't. It depends how you look at it. Then again, that's how I've been trained to look at it, as a Business Economics major.
What I see is someone proposing a bill that might just make university education less of a risk for people that haven't had the opportunity to 'do their work' and save up.
But then I've lived in an area where there was youth unemployment at rates above 40% before the crisis, where some of the people in my class were primary breadwinners for their families by 16. How were the kids working 30 hours a week on top of high school to pay rent supposed to save up for college? What were the 40% of kids who wanted to work but couldn't get a job supposed to do more? Commute 4 hours per day to work in the next city at the cost of 2 hours of wages?
Luckily for people in that area, their government has already put in place a system to eliminate punitive debt associated with higher education. Even though they don't have savings or parental savings to support them, they will graduate with a low total amount of debt which will gather interest at a low rate and will only have to make repayments proportional to their income.
One idea behind measures like this is that a university education will on average make a person more valuable to the economy by enough that it is worth educating them, and that debt or the fear of debt drives away the people whose value would most be increased by the education more than any other group.
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Yeah that older generation talk is PURE garbage. My father, for example paid like 2-3k (assuming I remember correctly) for his educatiuon at University of OR in his day. He actually didn't pay a dime though- GI Bill covered the whole thing after his 2 year stint in the Army. Bought our house and 2 acres for 60,000 (sold for 250,000 during the big bubble- 2nd acre sold seperately). Wages have not changed all that much since then.
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EPT
