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rfoster
United States1005 Posts
On April 15 2012 19:22 shaftofpleasure wrote: We don't have abundance of resources here so I doubt U.N.'s Big 5 would care about it. How are you on the internet if you are in North Korea?... | ||
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RA
Latvia791 Posts
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Coal
Sweden1535 Posts
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DeceiverSC2
36 Posts
On April 15 2012 18:56 TehPrime wrote: They've successfully tested missiles back in 2006 and 2009. This is their very first rocket failure. Great they can shoot off a simple missile that a gr 11 chemistry student could make in his backyard. I'm talking atomic weapons, weapons that don't destroy cities but countries. | ||
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ninini
Sweden1204 Posts
On April 15 2012 16:29 Chaosvuistje wrote: Because the situation is a lot more complicated than 'lets fight the evil guys'. A quick list: - Hundreds of artillery pieces aimed at the capitol of South Korea, ready to devastate it like a person held hostage - Three major world powers coming close together in that area of the world - Millions of low skilled refugees that we can't just all get rid of with a gun, the country taking in these refugees would take a big economic hit Sitting back and hoping the regime collapses into itself is far less taxing on human life as a full scale invasion would be. 200k North Korean soldiers killed, or 20k innocents killed every year? You pick. And what about freedom? The world have the ability to grant the 25 million North Korean ppl the freedom that they never had. It's been obvious for over 20 years that the North Korean regime have been extremely oppressive towards their ppl. What would you do if you saw some guys beat up someone in the streets? It's your duty to help him, even if it means that you get caught up in a fight that you had nothing to do with. Ppl these days are so spineless and selfish. They're only willing to help the weak if they don't have to make sacrifices of their own. Diplomatic relations should always be the first focus, but there comes a point when enough is enough, because you have to think about the ongoing suffering. If a parent in the western world abuses their children, then the authorities will takes over custody against their will, so why should the UN accept North Korea? By common moral standards it's a invalid regime, so it's our obligation to take it down. | ||
CaucasianAsian
Korea (South)11576 Posts
Thought this would be relevant. | ||
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sorrowptoss
Canada1431 Posts
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furymonkey
New Zealand1587 Posts
On April 15 2012 22:06 ninini wrote: 200k North Korean soldiers killed, or 20k innocents killed every year? You pick. And what about freedom? The world have the ability to grant the 25 million North Korean ppl the freedom that they never had. It's been obvious for over 20 years that the North Korean regime have been extremely oppressive towards their ppl. What would you do if you saw some guys beat up someone in the streets? It's your duty to help him, even if it means that you get caught up in a fight that you had nothing to do with. Ppl these days are so spineless and selfish. They're only willing to help the weak if they don't have to make sacrifices of their own. Diplomatic relations should always be the first focus, but there comes a point when enough is enough, because you have to think about the ongoing suffering. If a parent in the western world abuses their children, then the authorities will takes over custody against their will, so why should the UN accept North Korea? By common moral standards it's a invalid regime, so it's our obligation to take it down. Wait till you move everything you own and live at Seoul then say that. | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
On April 15 2012 19:45 shaftofpleasure wrote: I kid .... no I don't live in NK neither would i like to live in NK. What I mean to say is that NK doesn't interest other countries because it doesn't have resources on its land. NK very much interests other countries... Obvious the nation is oppressed and brainwashed but I never heard of anything like that happening (not in such richness) in USSR. At least there was some protection and moral ground for citizens, this is just brutal. The USSR from ~1930 to the mid 1950s was just as bad. | ||
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GreEny K
Germany7312 Posts
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ElMeanYo
United States1032 Posts
On April 15 2012 22:06 ninini wrote: 200k North Korean soldiers killed, or 20k innocents killed every year? You pick. And what about freedom? The world have the ability to grant the 25 million North Korean ppl the freedom that they never had. It's been obvious for over 20 years that the North Korean regime have been extremely oppressive towards their ppl. What would you do if you saw some guys beat up someone in the streets? It's your duty to help him, even if it means that you get caught up in a fight that you had nothing to do with. Ppl these days are so spineless and selfish. They're only willing to help the weak if they don't have to make sacrifices of their own. Diplomatic relations should always be the first focus, but there comes a point when enough is enough, because you have to think about the ongoing suffering. If a parent in the western world abuses their children, then the authorities will takes over custody against their will, so why should the UN accept North Korea? By common moral standards it's a invalid regime, so it's our obligation to take it down. Mini, although I agree with the spirit of what you are saying, this bully-victim-bystandar analogy breaks down when talking about the NK-SK situation. Like previous posters mentioned, Seoul is in the cross-hairs of NKs army with it being so close to the border. Should war break out, 100s of artillery pieces are waiting to rain down death upon them. Who's to know if some of them are not already nuclear armed? Secondly is their relationship with China. China supports NK economically and militarily by trading with the regime which is why international sanctions have not been effective. Any overthrow of the NK government without Chinas approval has the risk of elevating to war with them as well. And lastly there are the casualties of war itself. Civilians will no doubt get caught in the crossfire, or even be placed there by the NK government themselves. Remember when Saddam was hiding his weapon caches and military installations near schools and mosques? Do you think the NK government wouldn't stoop to that? Then there is the problem of what you do with North Koreans should you succeed in their liberation. Think of the millions of refugees there would be who are culturally and economically way behind their southern counterparts. The two countries would have to be merged somehow but in the meantime there would be lawlessness and chaos. No doubt their situation is a difficult one with no clear solution. So sadly right now the world waits and prays for the NK people. | ||
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-_-Quails
Australia796 Posts
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace. The cost of war with NK would be terrible, and those who would bear the brunt would be in Seoul. Every time I hear about the camps there I feel so helpless because I have no idea what can be done to bring about change without inviting a war that would decimate SK. | ||
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IrOnKaL
United States340 Posts
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace. Last I checked North Korea has around the third largest army in the world. | ||
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gruff
Sweden2276 Posts
On April 16 2012 01:03 IrOnKaL wrote: Last I checked North Korea has around the third largest army in the world. "Largest" is a relative term. | ||
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Parj
France55 Posts
Sure you're right that quantity and quality are two independents parameters, but talking about making war against a country in front of China is hazardous, it'll mean at least having Russia and China on your side. | ||
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ninini
Sweden1204 Posts
On April 16 2012 00:50 ElMeanYo wrote: Mini, I agree with you whole heatedly here. Although the analogy of bully-victim-bystander is a good one, it breaks down when talking about the NK-SK situation. Like previous posters mentioned, Seoul is in the cross-hairs of NKs army with it being so close to the border. Should war break out, 100s of artillery pieces are waiting to rain down death upon them. Who's to know if some of them are not already nuclear armed? Secondly is their relationship with China. China supports NK economically and militarily by trading with the regime which is why international sanctions have not been effective. Any overthrow of the NK government without Chinas approval has the risk of elevating to war with them as well. And lastly there are the casualties of war itself. Civilians will no doubt get caught in the crossfire, or even be placed there by the NK government themselves. Remember when Saddam was hiding his weapon caches and military installations near schools and mosques? Do you think the NK government wouldn't stoop to that? Then there is the problem of what you do with North Koreans should you succeed in their liberation. Think of the millions of refugees there would be who are culturally and economically way behind their southern counterparts. The two countries would have to be merged somehow but in the meantime there would be lawlessness and chaos. No doubt their situation is a difficult one with no clear solution. So sadly right now the world waits and prays for the NK people. People are overestimating China's role. Only weeks before Kim Jong Il died, he traveled to China to meet with some chinese politicians, and considering he had been ill for a while, it shows desperation from their part. It would make sense that he would stay at home, and send out a representative instead. This shows that China doesn't really take NK seriously, or atleast aren't very close. China is not a threat to USA. They don't have a strong enough army to take them on, and they don't want to either. NK haven't been "trading" weapons since the Iron Curtain fell. Their army relies on old russian weaponry from the 80's, which even back then was slightly behind the US weaponry. China will never declare war on USA, and USA will never declare war on China, irregardless of the NK situation. Anyway, as far as Seoul goes. They are or atleast should be prepared for the North Korean artillery. The thing is, North Korea have no fuel and their air-force is a joke, while SK and USA are the two world leaders in air technology. In these days you win wars with air. If war broke out, the ppl of Seoul would just have to be situated at bomb shelters for a few days max, while waiting for the US/SK airforce to take out all of the North Korean rocketry. This would be similar to what happened in Libya. Economic damage is inevitable, but how could anyone value a couple of skyscrapers over the freedom of 25 million ppl? Concerning who should be paying to build up North Korea afterwards is irrelevant too, since it's just a question of money, but for starters, South Korea's military budget is around half of North Koreas total GDP. North Korea's production is mostly slavery anyway, especially the mining industry. | ||
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Praetorial
United States4241 Posts
On April 16 2012 01:03 IrOnKaL wrote: Last I checked North Korea has around the third largest army in the world. I take it you mean people size. Were you taking into account the fact that they aren't even on the top ten of the world's largest military spenders? Source: Last week's Economist. | ||
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Zhou
United States832 Posts
On April 16 2012 02:04 ninini wrote: People are overestimating China's role. Only weeks before Kim Jong Il died, he traveled to China to meet with some chinese politicians, and considering he had been ill for a while, it shows desperation from their part. It would make sense that he would stay at home, and send out a representative instead. This shows that China doesn't really take NK seriously, or atleast aren't very close. China is not a threat to USA. They don't have a strong enough army to take them on, and they don't want to either. NK haven't been "trading" weapons since the Iron Curtain fell. Their army relies on old russian weaponry from the 80's, which even back then was slightly behind the US weaponry. China will never declare war on USA, and USA will never declare war on China, irregardless of the NK situation. Anyway, as far as Seoul goes. They are or atleast should be prepared for the North Korean artillery. The thing is, North Korea have no fuel and their air-force is a joke, while SK and USA are the two world leaders in air technology. In these days you win wars with air. If war broke out, the ppl of Seoul would just have to be situated at bomb shelters for a few days max, while waiting for the US/SK airforce to take out all of the North Korean rocketry. This would be similar to what happened in Libya. Economic damage is inevitable, but how could anyone value a couple of skyscrapers over the freedom of 25 million ppl? Concerning who should be paying to build up North Korea afterwards is irrelevant too, since it's just a question of money, but for starters, South Korea's military budget is around half of North Koreas total GDP. North Korea's production is mostly slavery anyway, especially the mining industry. There are still a lot of other things to consider... Yeah there are 25 million people or so in North Korea who we wish would have the freedom. We still have to consider that not the entire populace is completely brainwashed either. You just have to imagine how big the actual picture beyond just trying to help these people just because we can and that North Korea doesn't have any real threat to anyone, they are still neighbors to South Korea. South Korea, while better off, is still somewhat developing itself and probably won't be able to handle something like this themselves. To say the US should come and help would be also a little ridiculous, considering that we're in no real good position ourselves. These things unfortunately matter, because money plays such a big role. That's a lot of funding going into planning. Then you have to imagine what you do with these 25 million people who have lived a completely different lifestyle than the rest of the world? As it is, it's a little more than just going over to help a man bully another man in the streets. There is plenty of more to consider than just that. Plainly put, its really complicated for any country to decide what they want to do, when they have to worry about their own backyards and get up on their own feet. | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6204 Posts
On April 16 2012 01:20 Parj wrote: Sure you're right that quantity and quality are two independents parameters, but talking about making war against a country in front of China is hazardous, it'll mean at least having Russia and China on your side. I doubt China and Russia actually give a damn about North Korea atleast not so much that they would risk a war for them. | ||
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Otolia
France5805 Posts
On April 15 2012 22:06 ninini wrote:What would you do if you saw some guys beat up someone in the streets? It's your duty to help him, even if it means that you get caught up in a fight that you had nothing to do with. Ppl these days are so spineless and selfish. They're only willing to help the weak if they don't have to make sacrifices of their own. That's a bad example. A war to dethrone a dictator is more like trying to help hostages by killing them each time they are force to fight by their captors. | ||
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