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On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote:
Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
Because there is no oil there
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Off topic, I just noticed his name is a combination of Hydra's and Hyuk!
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On April 16 2012 10:23 phodacbiet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote:
Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace. Because there is no oil there
But in all seriousness, at some point the world is going to have to "find oil" in NoKor. This stuff is terrible. Such waste of society and life.
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On April 16 2012 03:55 Anytus wrote:
I think it is interesting that oppressive regimes and terrible dictators seem like a bigger problem today than it was 200 years ago. Technology, as wonderful as it is, has allowed a small number of individuals to concentrate power in their hands, despite the fact that those same people would be VASTLY outnumbered if a revolution broke out. It doesn't matter how many people want you out of power, even if they have guns, if you have tanks and rockets then they can't do anything about it.
The situation in 1200CE seems slightly different. Not only did the people in power need to stay ahead of the peasants in terms of technology (horses, armor, weapons) but they also needed societal pressure (church? nationalism?) to keep the people in check. The same might not be true today. This deserves to eb thought about a bit more deeply though because I think you could go through a lot fo examples, picking out where the balance of power shifted and understanding why.
Nope, the same things that happen today still happen in Africa and used to happen not so long ago in Latin America. And this arguably still happens in the Middle East. The oppressive regimes are just backed up by foreign aid who gives them funds to buy weapons which prevent revolutions.
The opposite happens as well. Foreign nations don't like what a perfectly non-tyrannical government is doing (like subsidizing oil), so they clandestinely arm a rebel group with weapons. The rebel group becomes a real threat, and the government is forced to resort to tyranny to fight the rebels. I know it sounds cliche, but it's cliche for a reason: it's true and it's happened a lot.
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On April 16 2012 10:52 Chunhyang wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 10:23 phodacbiet wrote:On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote:
Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace. Because there is no oil there But in all seriousness, at some point the world is going to have to "find oil" in NoKor. This stuff is terrible. Such waste of society and life.
World leaders simply dont give a fuck...they have their own party, this is just painful reality that we have to live with.
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On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote:
Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
One of the major issues is that the people there are so brainwashed by their government, that any type of invasion or anything would result in a sort of bloodbath since the citizens would turn on the opposing army.
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On April 16 2012 10:52 Chunhyang wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 10:23 phodacbiet wrote:On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote:
Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace. Because there is no oil there But in all seriousness, at some point the world is going to have to "find oil" in NoKor. This stuff is terrible. Such waste of society and life.
Your post got me thinking and I can't find a way for NK to simply stop destroying their own population:
..."One does not simply walk into Mordor."...
In pretty much every scenario I can think off NK just ends up blackmailing China or some other country in the range of its nuclear warheads for help or food, even if a revolution came from within. Hell, even if there was a 9.9 earthquake right in the middle of NK.
Even if you had authorization from China / Russia to attack NK you would need to know exactly where every warhead is located, had a plan to take it out and accept the fact that Seoul would become a graveyard or a crater. Not to mention you still have a few million soldiers to go through.
Maybe if China develops / Steals some EMP weapons from the US and those weapons could be guaranteed to fry the nuke's systems (along with every other electronic / power line in NK) it might be possible to simply starve the country into submission. Seoul still becomes a crater though
China would need a VERY good reason to do this, aside from the ridiculous implications / technical details of such an attack.
Meanwhile its best to just pretend South Korea is an island (unless you are on a ship) and business as usual.
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I feel ill after watching that.
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On April 16 2012 02:04 ninini wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 00:50 ElMeanYo wrote:On April 15 2012 22:06 ninini wrote:On April 15 2012 16:29 Chaosvuistje wrote:On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote:
Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace. Because the situation is a lot more complicated than 'lets fight the evil guys'. A quick list: - Hundreds of artillery pieces aimed at the capitol of South Korea, ready to devastate it like a person held hostage - Three major world powers coming close together in that area of the world - Millions of low skilled refugees that we can't just all get rid of with a gun, the country taking in these refugees would take a big economic hit Sitting back and hoping the regime collapses into itself is far less taxing on human life as a full scale invasion would be. 200k North Korean soldiers killed, or 20k innocents killed every year? You pick. And what about freedom? The world have the ability to grant the 25 million North Korean ppl the freedom that they never had. It's been obvious for over 20 years that the North Korean regime have been extremely oppressive towards their ppl. What would you do if you saw some guys beat up someone in the streets? It's your duty to help him, even if it means that you get caught up in a fight that you had nothing to do with. Ppl these days are so spineless and selfish. They're only willing to help the weak if they don't have to make sacrifices of their own. Diplomatic relations should always be the first focus, but there comes a point when enough is enough, because you have to think about the ongoing suffering. If a parent in the western world abuses their children, then the authorities will takes over custody against their will, so why should the UN accept North Korea? By common moral standards it's a invalid regime, so it's our obligation to take it down. Mini, I agree with you whole heatedly here. Although the analogy of bully-victim-bystander is a good one, it breaks down when talking about the NK-SK situation. Like previous posters mentioned, Seoul is in the cross-hairs of NKs army with it being so close to the border. Should war break out, 100s of artillery pieces are waiting to rain down death upon them. Who's to know if some of them are not already nuclear armed? Secondly is their relationship with China. China supports NK economically and militarily by trading with the regime which is why international sanctions have not been effective. Any overthrow of the NK government without Chinas approval has the risk of elevating to war with them as well. And lastly there are the casualties of war itself. Civilians will no doubt get caught in the crossfire, or even be placed there by the NK government themselves. Remember when Saddam was hiding his weapon caches and military installations near schools and mosques? Do you think the NK government wouldn't stoop to that? Then there is the problem of what you do with North Koreans should you succeed in their liberation. Think of the millions of refugees there would be who are culturally and economically way behind their southern counterparts. The two countries would have to be merged somehow but in the meantime there would be lawlessness and chaos. No doubt their situation is a difficult one with no clear solution. So sadly right now the world waits and prays for the NK people. Anyway, as far as Seoul goes. They are or atleast should be prepared for the North Korean artillery. The thing is, North Korea have no fuel and their air-force is a joke, while SK and USA are the two world leaders in air technology. In these days you win wars with air. If war broke out, the ppl of Seoul would just have to be situated at bomb shelters for a few days max, while waiting for the US/SK airforce to take out all of the North Korean rocketry. This would be similar to what happened in Libya. Economic damage is inevitable, but how could anyone value a couple of skyscrapers over the freedom of 25 million ppl?
Since you're so eager, you'll be trading your life for the 25 millions when the time comes? It is easy for you to say since you're not the one who is affected directly, like I said, wait till you live at Seoul with your family then say that.
Just a few Skyscrapers? Your statement is pissing on the World Trade Center.
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On April 16 2012 01:03 IrOnKaL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote:
Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace. Last I checked North Korea has around the third largest army in the world.
Of what untrained morons who have no weapons?
That sounds intense up until they realize we have bombs that can level their entire army.
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Communism, Stalinism, Leninism, Socialism, Statism.....ain't it grand! As for those wishing more bloodshed upon the people and the land, until the people want it themselves you cannot give it to them. People must want freedom for themselves. If they do not want it, then no amount of killing, destroying, or bribing will change anything. They must do it for themselves, must want it for themselves.
If the people want violence, there cannot be peace. If they want tyranny, there cannot be liberty. We won our Revolution not because of the French. We won because we wanted liberty more than anything. What is life without liberty? What consequences does war have upon the initiating country? You think liberty can survive long in a country constantly at war? You want what has never existed. War is not humanitarian. Can never be. Only the foolish and observers say such things.
As sad as their plight is, until they are willing to live the motto Live Free or Die in sufficient numbers, nothing can save them. You know why the Baltic States won their separation from the Kremlin? It's not because of the USA, or West Germany, or the UK. It's because they wanted it for themselves. Fought, died, and freed themselves.
As far as this persons account...I still find Gulag Archipaeligo to be the best account of such circumstances.
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I've been reading up a lot on the situation with the prison camps in North Korea, lately. And it really is some of the most disgusting stuff i've ever come across. I've managed to find several prison camps via google maps too, and even just from that perspective you can get an ever so slight sense of what it would be like living there.
What really disturbs me about it, though, is that these conditions are being forced upon people. It's not like it's due to a natural disaster or what not, there are actual human beings (if you could call them that) forcing these morbid living conditions upon thousands of others.
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On April 16 2012 17:48 marttorn wrote:
I've been reading up a lot on the situation with the prison camps in North Korea, lately. And it really is some of the most disgusting stuff i've ever come across. I've managed to find several prison camps via google maps too, and even just from that perspective you can get an ever so slight sense of what it would be like living there.
What really disturbs me about it, though, is that these conditions are being forced upon people. It's not like it's due to a natural disaster or what not, there are actual human beings (if you could call them that) forcing these morbid living conditions upon thousands of others.
The Stanford prison experiment demonstrates how easy it is to create guards willing to abuse prisoners, even if you don't indoctrinate them and make them fear for the lives of their loved ones. It is estimated that it took Eichmann one month to go from feeling horror and revulsion at what he saw taking place in the death camps to complete indifference.
We can make monsters out of people easily. The next great challenge will be to learn to make people out of monsters.
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On April 16 2012 03:55 Anytus wrote:
I think it is interesting that oppressive regimes and terrible dictators seem like a bigger problem today than it was 200 years ago. Technology, as wonderful as it is, has allowed a small number of individuals to concentrate power in their hands, despite the fact that those same people would be VASTLY outnumbered if a revolution broke out. It doesn't matter how many people want you out of power, even if they have guns, if you have tanks and rockets then they can't do anything about it.
The situation in 1200CE seems slightly different. Not only did the people in power need to stay ahead of the peasants in terms of technology (horses, armor, weapons) but they also needed societal pressure (church? nationalism?) to keep the people in check. The same might not be true today. This deserves to eb thought about a bit more deeply though because I think you could go through a lot fo examples, picking out where the balance of power shifted and understanding why.
200 years ago almost all regimes were oppressive and dictatorial. Empires were spreading across the globe and the revolutions in France and the USA made the old regimes scared. A scared regime is a dangerous one to be ruled by.
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On April 16 2012 10:08 Jisall wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 16 2012 08:42 Ramong wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 08:33 Jisall wrote:
China likes that they have a communist neighbor in North Korea. Russia also enjoyed that, and they support North Korea. North Korea has always been known for not being a stand-up nation.
Nothing we can do about it because of world politics and countries using Korea to leverage power. but that is where you are wrong... China at least DON'T like how North Korea does things. North Korea is a great embarrassment to China and a big money sink. Also the reason China was for North Korea in the past was as a buffer state against Japan and USA, those countries a no longer real enemies of China so North Korea is obsolete. As you can see in my post a couple of replies further up, China has officially confirmed they would rather have a North Korea under a South Korean rule than the current North Korea. But it ain't easy, invading North Korea would cost the death of many peoples life, many times greater than Afghanistan and Irak, and is not a real possibility. source BBC is a good source, but China can also say one thing publicly and do the opposite in private. I'm not sure china cares about human rights issues that arise. Look at events in Tibet.
If you read my source you would see that it wasn't only a public statement but also classified government files leaked by wikileaks that shows Chinas stance towards NK.
China gains NOTHING from maintaining NK, they did once but not any more.
On April 16 2012 11:07 Corsica wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 16 2012 10:52 Chunhyang wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 10:23 phodacbiet wrote:On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote:
Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace. Because there is no oil there But in all seriousness, at some point the world is going to have to "find oil" in NoKor. This stuff is terrible. Such waste of society and life. World leaders simply dont give a fuck...they have their own party, this is just painful reality that we have to live with.
That is simply not true..
Many countries including USA, UK, China and SK cares and spends many resources on NK
SourceSource2
Just because USA haven't invaded NK yet doesn't mean they don't give a fuck.
As many other in this thread have pointed out, invading NK is not a solid solution, as it would cost to many lives. The NK army are not to be taken lightly.
This is not an easy subject and there is no easy solution. I feel for the North Koreans that live in hell, but we can't just nuke Kim Jong-un from orbit and hope for the best.
Foreign relations, political pressure and incentives are the best way
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On April 16 2012 08:17 mastergriggy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 06:40 Ramong wrote:As far as I know China is actually more interested in getting rid of north Korea and having a unified Korea under south Korean rule. Source!Source 2Chinas biggest concern is the likely hundreds of thousand refugees that would stream into China from North Korea in the event of a war. North Korea accounts for 40% of China's foreign aid budget and 50,000 tonnes of oil exports per month to maintain a buffer state against Japan, South Korea, and the United States, but these three nations are no longer China's enemies. I am not saying a war against North Korea is a good idea, I would say I am against it if I had to take a stance, but most of the world is for a unification, China included. I could see China wishing to cut ties with NK. Since they are looking to become a world power, it seems like a good idea to remove NK as allies as the rest of the world isn't too fond of them. It's despicable that these types of camps still exist. I'm honestly surprised that the citizens of NK haven't attempted some sort of resistance to this, but I could just be ignorant of the facts. Gives me some things to research at least.
The problem is that they can't resist. Stalinistic dictatorships like this are very stable, because they control with fear. If they suspect that you're up to no good, you get punished, and they teach you to expose those who talk bad about the regime, by rewarding those who support the government. In this specific case, the regime have a extraordinary stability, because of how the state controls everything. China was never as restricting as North Korea is, so with North Korea you have a country where most ppl doesn't have a clue about what the rest of the world looks like.
On April 16 2012 08:32 OptimusYale wrote:
And before people think 'NK EZPZ' you are so horribly wrong. First of all check out how far the NK push got in SK in the 50's war before the US eventually helped SK push back up to where it is now. It was not an easy war by a long shot, and tbh the SK then and now are completely different in terms of world affairs.
The true way to disassemble NK is by China removing all assistance from the country, thus causing the country to go into disarray. Unfortunately there would be many deaths with the public starving and stuff, but it would be the only way. If China maybe allowed refugees to live near the border of NK during any unrest, with monetary aid from South Korea and the UN to help assist China in dealing with the exodus, it could work.
However eliminating NK all together would be bad for all the countries involved in the peninsula. What would be better is for NK to remain largely independent, with a large educational boost from both China and South Korea to help the acclimatize to the modern world. Allow NK to develop it's own industries with investment from any country or company willing to invest. Those companies would then take responsibility of developing the area around the factories (similar to what some companies do in Africa, like create decent homes and schools for their work force to use).
Come on. In the 50's, South Korea was a very poor agricultural country. Now it's one of the strongest world economies with the 2nd most advanced army in the world. Plus, in the 50's, North Korea was Stalin's puppet state. They never would have gotten that far if they hadn't been armed with their weapons and trained by russian WW2 veterans.
I totally agree with you on China though. If we're going for a gradual change, then it is key that China officially turns their back on North Korea. What they're doing now, by sending back refugees against their will is not helping North Korea at all.
On April 16 2012 15:58 furymonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 02:04 ninini wrote:On April 16 2012 00:50 ElMeanYo wrote:On April 15 2012 22:06 ninini wrote:On April 15 2012 16:29 Chaosvuistje wrote:On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote:
Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace. Because the situation is a lot more complicated than 'lets fight the evil guys'. A quick list: - Hundreds of artillery pieces aimed at the capitol of South Korea, ready to devastate it like a person held hostage - Three major world powers coming close together in that area of the world - Millions of low skilled refugees that we can't just all get rid of with a gun, the country taking in these refugees would take a big economic hit Sitting back and hoping the regime collapses into itself is far less taxing on human life as a full scale invasion would be. 200k North Korean soldiers killed, or 20k innocents killed every year? You pick. And what about freedom? The world have the ability to grant the 25 million North Korean ppl the freedom that they never had. It's been obvious for over 20 years that the North Korean regime have been extremely oppressive towards their ppl. What would you do if you saw some guys beat up someone in the streets? It's your duty to help him, even if it means that you get caught up in a fight that you had nothing to do with. Ppl these days are so spineless and selfish. They're only willing to help the weak if they don't have to make sacrifices of their own. Diplomatic relations should always be the first focus, but there comes a point when enough is enough, because you have to think about the ongoing suffering. If a parent in the western world abuses their children, then the authorities will takes over custody against their will, so why should the UN accept North Korea? By common moral standards it's a invalid regime, so it's our obligation to take it down. Mini, I agree with you whole heatedly here. Although the analogy of bully-victim-bystander is a good one, it breaks down when talking about the NK-SK situation. Like previous posters mentioned, Seoul is in the cross-hairs of NKs army with it being so close to the border. Should war break out, 100s of artillery pieces are waiting to rain down death upon them. Who's to know if some of them are not already nuclear armed? Secondly is their relationship with China. China supports NK economically and militarily by trading with the regime which is why international sanctions have not been effective. Any overthrow of the NK government without Chinas approval has the risk of elevating to war with them as well. And lastly there are the casualties of war itself. Civilians will no doubt get caught in the crossfire, or even be placed there by the NK government themselves. Remember when Saddam was hiding his weapon caches and military installations near schools and mosques? Do you think the NK government wouldn't stoop to that? Then there is the problem of what you do with North Koreans should you succeed in their liberation. Think of the millions of refugees there would be who are culturally and economically way behind their southern counterparts. The two countries would have to be merged somehow but in the meantime there would be lawlessness and chaos. No doubt their situation is a difficult one with no clear solution. So sadly right now the world waits and prays for the NK people. Anyway, as far as Seoul goes. They are or atleast should be prepared for the North Korean artillery. The thing is, North Korea have no fuel and their air-force is a joke, while SK and USA are the two world leaders in air technology. In these days you win wars with air. If war broke out, the ppl of Seoul would just have to be situated at bomb shelters for a few days max, while waiting for the US/SK airforce to take out all of the North Korean rocketry. This would be similar to what happened in Libya. Economic damage is inevitable, but how could anyone value a couple of skyscrapers over the freedom of 25 million ppl? Since you're so eager, you'll be trading your life for the 25 millions when the time comes? It is easy for you to say since you're not the one who is affected directly, like I said, wait till you live at Seoul with your family then say that. Just a few Skyscrapers? Your statement is pissing on the World Trade Center.
You aren't allowed to mention the word skyscraper? Yes, it's easy for me to say what needs to be done, but atleast I'm trying to accomplish something by discussing solutions. The day that North Korea falls, the north korean ppl will ask us all why we didn't help them and it will be known as the country where the world failed. We have experienced Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, but we still didn't do anything about North Korea.
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On April 16 2012 18:14 -_-Quails wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 17:48 marttorn wrote:
I've been reading up a lot on the situation with the prison camps in North Korea, lately. And it really is some of the most disgusting stuff i've ever come across. I've managed to find several prison camps via google maps too, and even just from that perspective you can get an ever so slight sense of what it would be like living there.
What really disturbs me about it, though, is that these conditions are being forced upon people. It's not like it's due to a natural disaster or what not, there are actual human beings (if you could call them that) forcing these morbid living conditions upon thousands of others. The Stanford prison experiment demonstrates how easy it is to create guards willing to abuse prisoners, even if you don't indoctrinate them and make them fear for the lives of their loved ones. It is estimated that it took Eichmann one month to go from feeling horror and revulsion at what he saw taking place in the death camps to complete indifference. We can make monsters out of people easily. The next great challenge will be to learn to make people out of monsters.
The funny thing about the Stanford experiment is that it shows that going back and forth is equally easy. It's all about the situation; in the right situation, people do bad things. In other situations, people will stop doing bad things.
The next great challenge will be to make people resistent to becoming monsters in the first place. To figure out how to raise a person who has a higher tolerance against peer pressure and those situations that turn us into bad people.
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I heard that the lucky people that actually manage to escape, they have to spend like quite a bit of time in South Korean classes that are organized by the government so that they can actually learn how the real world works.
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On April 17 2012 02:22 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 18:14 -_-Quails wrote:On April 16 2012 17:48 marttorn wrote:
I've been reading up a lot on the situation with the prison camps in North Korea, lately. And it really is some of the most disgusting stuff i've ever come across. I've managed to find several prison camps via google maps too, and even just from that perspective you can get an ever so slight sense of what it would be like living there.
What really disturbs me about it, though, is that these conditions are being forced upon people. It's not like it's due to a natural disaster or what not, there are actual human beings (if you could call them that) forcing these morbid living conditions upon thousands of others. The Stanford prison experiment demonstrates how easy it is to create guards willing to abuse prisoners, even if you don't indoctrinate them and make them fear for the lives of their loved ones. It is estimated that it took Eichmann one month to go from feeling horror and revulsion at what he saw taking place in the death camps to complete indifference. We can make monsters out of people easily. The next great challenge will be to learn to make people out of monsters. The funny thing about the Stanford experiment is that it shows that going back and forth is equally easy. It's all about the situation; in the right situation, people do bad things. In other situations, people will stop doing bad things. The next great challenge will be to make people resistent to becoming monsters in the first place. To figure out how to raise a person who has a higher tolerance against peer pressure and those situations that turn us into bad people.
It's called an ardent belief in the NAP (Non-Aggression Principle), or in a more common tongue the Golden Rule. It's not that people need to 'evolve' or change their behavior, but it starts with the rearing of your children and what you teach them. It starts with you. The only person you can ever change in the world and make a difference is yourself. Life & Liberty. Those are the most precious things in this world, for which a great many good men have given their lives to defend.
Everyone has it in themselves, it just takes courage, conviction, and vigilance. Gotta stop worrying about the world and worry about the only things you can really change. Yourself and your family. Let yourselves be the example for others to emulate, and like they say "Build it and they will come". There's a reason a large percentage of people flocked to America to enjoy liberty, and sure, we weren't perfect, and human beings can never be, but we tried, and we can improve and reach for that ideal goal. That's all we can do.
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