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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP.
If you make an uninformed post, or one that isn't relevant to the discussion, you will be moderated. If in doubt, don't post. |
Fun fact from your site. Scissors have a 100% fatality rate.
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this is a really horrible case, especially because it seems the entire premiss is that Zimmerman must prove he is not guilty, rather than the prosecution prove he is guilty. has there been any evidence so far that he is guilty or is it still just a "what do you think?" game?
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On March 07 2013 11:29 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2013 05:20 xDaunt wrote:On March 06 2013 05:09 dAPhREAk wrote:
this a ballsy move by the defense. they could have won the case outright if they had prevailed at this hearing. now the trial is basically an all or nothing proposition for zimmerman. however, they have not waived the immunity, which means they can file a similar motion after the prosecution rests, or after all evidence has been heard.
pros -- now the prosecution doesnt get to see their case before trial, or hear evidence from zimmerman that they can use to impeach him at trial.
cons -- now he has to go through trial, which could cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, and he remains on bail.
interesting move by the defense. This is basically right. If the Defense doesn't think that winning the stand your ground hearing is a slam dunk, then skipping it is probably a good idea. First, the hearing will basically be like a mini-trial and be very expensive in its own right. Second, and as you point out, every time that Zimmerman opens his mouth, potential impeachment material flies out. The less he talks, the better. Third, the Defense likely is factoring in burdens of proof. I haven't read the SYG law, but I'd be shocked if the burden to prove it wasn't on the Defense (just a matter of whether it is by a preponderance or some higher standard). Depending upon Florida's statutory scheme and what the prosecution has to prove, it may be that the easier way to victory is through the prosecution failing to prove its case as opposed to the defense proving SYG. If this is the case, then it definitely makes sense to roll the SYG hearing into the trial in chief. Zimmerman's case would have to be based around self defense where the burden of proof is on the defense, not the prosecution. He has to prove it is more likely than not that he acted in self defense (51%). So it would be him who would have to prove his case and the prosecution needs to just show that is not true. My point is just that in either the hearing or the trial the burden of proof is on the defense since SYG would be an affirmative defense regardless. A couple of questions for those more knowledgeable about SYG. Is there a different burden of proof compared to the hearing vs the trial? Second question, can SYG be used as a defense in the trial assuming there is either A. No pretrial hearing, or B. SYG was ruled not applicable in the pretrial hearing.
in florida, the burden of proof is on the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant did not act in self defense. it is not the same as other states where the burden of proof is usually on the defendant.
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Wait seriously lol? They have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt (90%) that he didn't act in self defense? That's an insane threshold for an affirmative defense... Is that where you practice law?
If the judge finds the defendant hasn't met his burden, (including if the disputed evidence is so equal on both sides the judge can't decide one way or the other) the case goes to trial to be decided by the jury. At trial, the defendant can still argue both self-defense and stand your ground immunity -- he only has to establish some evidence of his theory, which can be just his own testimony, that he acted in self-defense.
The prosecution must prove his guilt at the jury trial beyond a reasonable doubt. Which means, if the defendant raises self-defense or stand your ground at trial and gets the jury instruction, the state, which has the burden of proving guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, must disprove self-defense. If the jury has a doubt, the defendant must be acquitted.
Found this on some site after googling for a few minutes. That's pretty wild. In NY for an affirmative defense you need to prove a preponderance to support that you were justified in committing the crime therefore excusing the criminality. I didn't realize there was such a huge variation by state.
Objectively I felt that a preponderance to prove your act was justified was a fair threshold for affirmative defenses, since I feel you would only need to articulate the state of mind and the facts to establish that there's a decent chance that something was self defense.
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On March 07 2013 12:53 sc2superfan101 wrote:
this is a really horrible case, especially because it seems the entire premiss is that Zimmerman must prove he is not guilty, rather than the prosecution prove he is guilty. has there been any evidence so far that he is guilty or is it still just a "what do you think?" game?
Well, he did shoot and kill Trayvon Martin, and he admitted as much. What is else is there to prove other than whether it was justified or not ?
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On March 07 2013 14:36 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2013 12:53 sc2superfan101 wrote:
this is a really horrible case, especially because it seems the entire premiss is that Zimmerman must prove he is not guilty, rather than the prosecution prove he is guilty. has there been any evidence so far that he is guilty or is it still just a "what do you think?" game? Well, he did shoot and kill Trayvon Martin, and he admitted as much. What is else is there to prove other than whether it was justified or not ?
Really?
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Disclaimer: + Show Spoiler +
But this thing feels like Zimmerman is getting lynched from public opinions misled by the media.
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United States43982 Posts
On March 07 2013 11:30 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2013 11:21 micronesia wrote:
I don't know any particulars about the area, nor the laws there, but it is possible that there are differences in the socioeconomic status of people of different races, and therefore, the likelihood that people of different races will commit certain crimes, and therefore, the likelihood that they will get hurt by someone 'standing their ground' legitimately.
In a perfect world (but one not perfect enough for there to be no need to stand your ground) the validity of someone trying to stand their ground will be completely independent of the race of the person who ended up getting shot. However, this may not be the case. Just because there was a higher percentage of successful defenses when the person who got shot was black does not necessarily mean that there is a racial prejudice in the legal or enforcement system. As always, we must be careful when trying to draw conclusions based off correlations. I was about try to think of a nice way to say that black people might just be more prone to commit crimes where they would be victim to a stand your ground hearing. This did it pretty well though. Although the second statistic where there is only a 3% difference makes it easier to assume that's its about as racially unbiased as you could have hoped it to be.
A difference between black only and everyone of 3% does not mean a difference between black and white of 3%. Not to defend his cherry picking of statistics out of context, just that the 73% for black, 70% generally doesn't actually mean anything because if you're trying to make a point about race then you don't compare the black statistic with the everyone statistic, it doesn't mean anything.
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Chief witness in Trayvon Martin case lied under oath
The state's chief witness in the Trayvon Martin murder case lied under oath, prosecutors say.
The young woman who says she was on the phone with Martin when he encountered George Zimmerman lied about her whereabouts at another time, the prosecution told a judge Tuesday.
The woman, whose name has not been released, had told prosecutors that she was in the hospital on the day of Martin's funeral. The defense then sought her medical records.
Letters to Zimmerman show split opinions on Trayvon Martin shooting
In court on Tuesday, the state said the woman, known as Civilian Witness 8, was not in the hospital, so there are no such records to be turned over.
Prosecutors did not immediately respond to a question Wednesday from CNN about the witness's credibility and how this may affect the case.
Questions have long surrounded the woman. Martin family attorney Benjamin Crump first played an audio recording of the woman a year ago at a news conference. The recording seemed to have very poor quality.
Police said that as of that point they had not interviewed her.
Trayvon Martin's parents ready to let jury decide fate of son's killer
Crump said the witness was 16 years old. But prosecutors have since said she was already 18 -- legally an adult -- on the night of the killing, February 26, 2012, in Sanford, Florida.
Martin, 17, was walking to the house of his father's fiancee after a trip to a nearby convenience store.
Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer, has acknowledged shooting Martin.
Crump has accused Zimmerman of killing Martin "in cold blood."
Zimmerman says he acted in self-defense.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/06/us/florida-trayvon-martin-case/index.html
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On March 07 2013 14:36 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2013 12:53 sc2superfan101 wrote:
this is a really horrible case, especially because it seems the entire premiss is that Zimmerman must prove he is not guilty, rather than the prosecution prove he is guilty. has there been any evidence so far that he is guilty or is it still just a "what do you think?" game? Well, he did shoot and kill Trayvon Martin, and he admitted as much. What is else is there to prove other than whether it was justified or not ?
why should it be his job to prove that though? what about innocent until proven guilty? if the prosecution can't prove that he didn't do it in self-defense than they should never have taken the case to court.
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On March 09 2013 06:16 dAPhREAk wrote:Chief witness in Trayvon Martin case lied under oath Show nested quote +The state's chief witness in the Trayvon Martin murder case lied under oath, prosecutors say.
The young woman who says she was on the phone with Martin when he encountered George Zimmerman lied about her whereabouts at another time, the prosecution told a judge Tuesday.
The woman, whose name has not been released, had told prosecutors that she was in the hospital on the day of Martin's funeral. The defense then sought her medical records.
Letters to Zimmerman show split opinions on Trayvon Martin shooting
In court on Tuesday, the state said the woman, known as Civilian Witness 8, was not in the hospital, so there are no such records to be turned over.
Prosecutors did not immediately respond to a question Wednesday from CNN about the witness's credibility and how this may affect the case.
Questions have long surrounded the woman. Martin family attorney Benjamin Crump first played an audio recording of the woman a year ago at a news conference. The recording seemed to have very poor quality.
Police said that as of that point they had not interviewed her.
Trayvon Martin's parents ready to let jury decide fate of son's killer
Crump said the witness was 16 years old. But prosecutors have since said she was already 18 -- legally an adult -- on the night of the killing, February 26, 2012, in Sanford, Florida.
Martin, 17, was walking to the house of his father's fiancee after a trip to a nearby convenience store.
Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer, has acknowledged shooting Martin.
Crump has accused Zimmerman of killing Martin "in cold blood."
Zimmerman says he acted in self-defense.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/06/us/florida-trayvon-martin-case/index.html
Does this hurt her testimony in the eyes of the jurors at all? Honestly, this might bug me if I was a juror because if you're willing to lie about your age, and lie about being in the hospital when needed for questioning, then it is possible that she also lied, or "trumped" up her statements to police in order to bring justice to her bf.
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Lawyer: State's main witness in George Zimmerman murder case lied
Trayvon Martin's girlfriend, the state's most important witness in the George Zimmerman murder case, was caught in a lie, it was revealed Tuesday.
It was not the first piece of misinformation tied to her, but it was the most damaging to date and left prosecutors in a very awkward position.
They had to publicly acknowledge that their star witness had lied under oath and had to answer questions about what they intend to do about it.
Reporters asked: Will you charge the 19-year-old Miami woman with perjury?
The state's lead prosecutor, Bernie de la Rionda, gave an ambiguous answer: "You can all read the law and make your own decision."
The woman had told prosecutors she was in the hospital on the day of Trayvon's funeral.
"In fact, she lied," defense attorney Don West said.
The disclosure was one of two major developments Tuesday at what had been expected to be a dull hearing about the exchange of case evidence.
The other: Zimmerman's lawyers will not hold a "stand your ground" hearing in April, one that could clear him of criminal wrongdoing before his trial.
Defense attorney Mark O'Mara made that announcement in court, later saying he had not yet decided whether to scrap it entirely or roll it into Zimmerman's second-degree-murder trial set for June 10.
"Our real focus is getting ready for the trial," O'Mara said.
What Zimmerman most wants is to be tried by a jury of his peers, O'Mara said, and with fewer than 100 days until trial, "There's only time for one hearing, and that's a jury trial. … We have precious little time."
Zimmerman was not at Tuesday's hearing. Neither was his wife, Shellie, who's awaiting trial on a perjury charge, accused of lying at her husband's April 20 bond hearing. That's what prompted the perjury question to de la Rionda.
If defense lawyers decide to forgo George Zimmerman's immunity hearing, they would be cutting in half their number of opportunities to spare him from a life in prison.
Florida's "stand your ground" statute has generated a great deal of public debate since Trayvon's death one year ago in Sanford. It provides immunity to anyone who uses deadly force, provided he has a reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily injury.
Zimmerman says he shot Trayvon in self-defense.
Because of Circuit Judge Debra S. Nelson's very tight schedule, when O'Mara told her he would not put on a two-week "stand your ground" hearing starting April 22, he essentially told her he would not hold that hearing before Zimmerman's trial.
She did not press him to spell out his plans.
De la Rionda said he was "bewildered" by O'Mara's decision but did not elaborate.
Zimmerman, a 29-year-old former Neighborhood Watch volunteer, called Sanford police Feb. 26, 2012, describing Trayvon as suspicious. Zimmerman shot the unarmed high-school junior a few minutes later, saying he fired in self-defense after the Miami Gardens 17-year-old punched him, broke his nose, then began pounding his head onto a sidewalk.
Sanford police found no witnesses to the initial confrontation, but Trayvon's family attorney, Benjamin Crump, found something close: Trayvon's girlfriend, identified in court records as "witness 8." She told Crump she had been on the phone with Trayvon just before the shooting.
According to an interview Crump recorded after the shooting, the young woman said Trayvon told her a stranger was following him, and he was scared. Trayvon got away from him once, but the man reappeared, she said, and she heard Trayvon ask, "'What are you following me for?'"
The man answered, "'What are you doing here?'" she said, and then she said the man must have pushed Trayvon because the phone went dead.
The woman gave de la Rionda a very similar account during a sworn statement April 2, and when his office wrote up its probable-cause affidavit, charging Zimmerman with second-degree murder, it rehashed her account but did not include her allegation that she heard Zimmerman push Trayvon.
Despite's Tuesday's revelation, there is no indication the woman lied about what she heard on the phone the evening Trayvon was shot. But she appears to have given Crump another piece of bad information: her age.
He told reporters in March, when he played excerpts from the recorded interview, that she was 16 years old. In fact, she was 18 at the time. Crump has said he did not knowingly misrepresent her age.
O'Mara would not say whether the woman should be prosecuted for perjury for lying under oath about being in the hospital.
But months ago, he and co-counsel Don West began trying to investigate her. They earlier persuaded the judge to allow them to subpoena her Twitter and Facebook accounts so they can read her posts.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2013-03-05/news/os-zimmerman-witness-8-medical-records-20130305_1_george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-bernie-de-la-rionda
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On March 09 2013 06:22 ranshaked wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 06:16 dAPhREAk wrote:Chief witness in Trayvon Martin case lied under oath The state's chief witness in the Trayvon Martin murder case lied under oath, prosecutors say.
The young woman who says she was on the phone with Martin when he encountered George Zimmerman lied about her whereabouts at another time, the prosecution told a judge Tuesday.
The woman, whose name has not been released, had told prosecutors that she was in the hospital on the day of Martin's funeral. The defense then sought her medical records.
Letters to Zimmerman show split opinions on Trayvon Martin shooting
In court on Tuesday, the state said the woman, known as Civilian Witness 8, was not in the hospital, so there are no such records to be turned over.
Prosecutors did not immediately respond to a question Wednesday from CNN about the witness's credibility and how this may affect the case.
Questions have long surrounded the woman. Martin family attorney Benjamin Crump first played an audio recording of the woman a year ago at a news conference. The recording seemed to have very poor quality.
Police said that as of that point they had not interviewed her.
Trayvon Martin's parents ready to let jury decide fate of son's killer
Crump said the witness was 16 years old. But prosecutors have since said she was already 18 -- legally an adult -- on the night of the killing, February 26, 2012, in Sanford, Florida.
Martin, 17, was walking to the house of his father's fiancee after a trip to a nearby convenience store.
Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer, has acknowledged shooting Martin.
Crump has accused Zimmerman of killing Martin "in cold blood."
Zimmerman says he acted in self-defense.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/06/us/florida-trayvon-martin-case/index.html Does this hurt her testimony in the eyes of the jurors at all? Honestly, this might bug me if I was a juror because if you're willing to lie about your age, and lie about being in the hospital when needed for questioning, then it is possible that she also lied, or "trumped" up her statements to police in order to bring justice to her bf.
Pretty much the point. Once you have lied under oath to a judge anything you say cannot and most likely will not be taken seriously to a judge
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On March 09 2013 06:22 ranshaked wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 06:16 dAPhREAk wrote:Chief witness in Trayvon Martin case lied under oath The state's chief witness in the Trayvon Martin murder case lied under oath, prosecutors say.
The young woman who says she was on the phone with Martin when he encountered George Zimmerman lied about her whereabouts at another time, the prosecution told a judge Tuesday.
The woman, whose name has not been released, had told prosecutors that she was in the hospital on the day of Martin's funeral. The defense then sought her medical records.
Letters to Zimmerman show split opinions on Trayvon Martin shooting
In court on Tuesday, the state said the woman, known as Civilian Witness 8, was not in the hospital, so there are no such records to be turned over.
Prosecutors did not immediately respond to a question Wednesday from CNN about the witness's credibility and how this may affect the case.
Questions have long surrounded the woman. Martin family attorney Benjamin Crump first played an audio recording of the woman a year ago at a news conference. The recording seemed to have very poor quality.
Police said that as of that point they had not interviewed her.
Trayvon Martin's parents ready to let jury decide fate of son's killer
Crump said the witness was 16 years old. But prosecutors have since said she was already 18 -- legally an adult -- on the night of the killing, February 26, 2012, in Sanford, Florida.
Martin, 17, was walking to the house of his father's fiancee after a trip to a nearby convenience store.
Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer, has acknowledged shooting Martin.
Crump has accused Zimmerman of killing Martin "in cold blood."
Zimmerman says he acted in self-defense.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/06/us/florida-trayvon-martin-case/index.html Does this hurt her testimony in the eyes of the jurors at all? Honestly, this might bug me if I was a juror because if you're willing to lie about your age, and lie about being in the hospital when needed for questioning, then it is possible that she also lied, or "trumped" up her statements to police in order to bring justice to her bf.
two issues that i would need to know: 1. when she lied. there is an issue of collateral impeachment (it may not even go into evidence under legal rules). 2. why she lied. if she has a good excuse then some people may be willing to accept that. however, there have apparently been numerous misrepresentations attributed to her so she is not looking like the best witness for the prosecutor.
just a minor point, when zimmerman's wife lied, they arrested her for perjury. when trayvon's purported girlfriend/friend lied, did they arrest her for perjury? because if they arrested her, her credibility will be shot.
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On March 09 2013 06:29 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 06:22 ranshaked wrote:On March 09 2013 06:16 dAPhREAk wrote:Chief witness in Trayvon Martin case lied under oath The state's chief witness in the Trayvon Martin murder case lied under oath, prosecutors say.
The young woman who says she was on the phone with Martin when he encountered George Zimmerman lied about her whereabouts at another time, the prosecution told a judge Tuesday.
The woman, whose name has not been released, had told prosecutors that she was in the hospital on the day of Martin's funeral. The defense then sought her medical records.
Letters to Zimmerman show split opinions on Trayvon Martin shooting
In court on Tuesday, the state said the woman, known as Civilian Witness 8, was not in the hospital, so there are no such records to be turned over.
Prosecutors did not immediately respond to a question Wednesday from CNN about the witness's credibility and how this may affect the case.
Questions have long surrounded the woman. Martin family attorney Benjamin Crump first played an audio recording of the woman a year ago at a news conference. The recording seemed to have very poor quality.
Police said that as of that point they had not interviewed her.
Trayvon Martin's parents ready to let jury decide fate of son's killer
Crump said the witness was 16 years old. But prosecutors have since said she was already 18 -- legally an adult -- on the night of the killing, February 26, 2012, in Sanford, Florida.
Martin, 17, was walking to the house of his father's fiancee after a trip to a nearby convenience store.
Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer, has acknowledged shooting Martin.
Crump has accused Zimmerman of killing Martin "in cold blood."
Zimmerman says he acted in self-defense.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/06/us/florida-trayvon-martin-case/index.html Does this hurt her testimony in the eyes of the jurors at all? Honestly, this might bug me if I was a juror because if you're willing to lie about your age, and lie about being in the hospital when needed for questioning, then it is possible that she also lied, or "trumped" up her statements to police in order to bring justice to her bf. two issues that i would need to know: 1. when she lied. there is an issue of collateral impeachment (it may not even go into evidence under legal rules). 2. why she lied. if she has a good excuse then some people may be willing to accept that. however, there have apparently been numerous misrepresentations attributed to her so she is not looking like the best witness for the prosecutor. just a minor point, when zimmerman's wife lied, they arrested her for perjury. when trayvon's purported girlfriend/friend lied, did they arrest her for perjury? because if they arrested her, her credibility will be shot.
The lie will come into evidence unless Florida has some weird evidentiary rules. Parties are given very long leashes to delve into any evidence that shows bias or motive. It would almost certainly be error to exclude evidence tending to show that the victim's girlfriend may be a serial fibber when it comes to what happened to her boyfriend.
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On March 09 2013 06:35 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 06:29 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 09 2013 06:22 ranshaked wrote:On March 09 2013 06:16 dAPhREAk wrote:Chief witness in Trayvon Martin case lied under oath The state's chief witness in the Trayvon Martin murder case lied under oath, prosecutors say.
The young woman who says she was on the phone with Martin when he encountered George Zimmerman lied about her whereabouts at another time, the prosecution told a judge Tuesday.
The woman, whose name has not been released, had told prosecutors that she was in the hospital on the day of Martin's funeral. The defense then sought her medical records.
Letters to Zimmerman show split opinions on Trayvon Martin shooting
In court on Tuesday, the state said the woman, known as Civilian Witness 8, was not in the hospital, so there are no such records to be turned over.
Prosecutors did not immediately respond to a question Wednesday from CNN about the witness's credibility and how this may affect the case.
Questions have long surrounded the woman. Martin family attorney Benjamin Crump first played an audio recording of the woman a year ago at a news conference. The recording seemed to have very poor quality.
Police said that as of that point they had not interviewed her.
Trayvon Martin's parents ready to let jury decide fate of son's killer
Crump said the witness was 16 years old. But prosecutors have since said she was already 18 -- legally an adult -- on the night of the killing, February 26, 2012, in Sanford, Florida.
Martin, 17, was walking to the house of his father's fiancee after a trip to a nearby convenience store.
Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer, has acknowledged shooting Martin.
Crump has accused Zimmerman of killing Martin "in cold blood."
Zimmerman says he acted in self-defense.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/06/us/florida-trayvon-martin-case/index.html Does this hurt her testimony in the eyes of the jurors at all? Honestly, this might bug me if I was a juror because if you're willing to lie about your age, and lie about being in the hospital when needed for questioning, then it is possible that she also lied, or "trumped" up her statements to police in order to bring justice to her bf. two issues that i would need to know: 1. when she lied. there is an issue of collateral impeachment (it may not even go into evidence under legal rules). 2. why she lied. if she has a good excuse then some people may be willing to accept that. however, there have apparently been numerous misrepresentations attributed to her so she is not looking like the best witness for the prosecutor. just a minor point, when zimmerman's wife lied, they arrested her for perjury. when trayvon's purported girlfriend/friend lied, did they arrest her for perjury? because if they arrested her, her credibility will be shot. The lie will come into evidence unless Florida has some weird evidentiary rules. Parties are given very long leashes to delve into any evidence that shows bias or motive. It would almost certainly be error to exclude evidence tending to show that the victim's girlfriend may be a serial fibber when it comes to what happened to her boyfriend.
i referred specifically to collateral impeachment, which is not a "weird evidentiary rule." it is quite common.
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On March 09 2013 06:37 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 06:35 xDaunt wrote:On March 09 2013 06:29 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 09 2013 06:22 ranshaked wrote:On March 09 2013 06:16 dAPhREAk wrote:Chief witness in Trayvon Martin case lied under oath The state's chief witness in the Trayvon Martin murder case lied under oath, prosecutors say.
The young woman who says she was on the phone with Martin when he encountered George Zimmerman lied about her whereabouts at another time, the prosecution told a judge Tuesday.
The woman, whose name has not been released, had told prosecutors that she was in the hospital on the day of Martin's funeral. The defense then sought her medical records.
Letters to Zimmerman show split opinions on Trayvon Martin shooting
In court on Tuesday, the state said the woman, known as Civilian Witness 8, was not in the hospital, so there are no such records to be turned over.
Prosecutors did not immediately respond to a question Wednesday from CNN about the witness's credibility and how this may affect the case.
Questions have long surrounded the woman. Martin family attorney Benjamin Crump first played an audio recording of the woman a year ago at a news conference. The recording seemed to have very poor quality.
Police said that as of that point they had not interviewed her.
Trayvon Martin's parents ready to let jury decide fate of son's killer
Crump said the witness was 16 years old. But prosecutors have since said she was already 18 -- legally an adult -- on the night of the killing, February 26, 2012, in Sanford, Florida.
Martin, 17, was walking to the house of his father's fiancee after a trip to a nearby convenience store.
Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer, has acknowledged shooting Martin.
Crump has accused Zimmerman of killing Martin "in cold blood."
Zimmerman says he acted in self-defense.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/06/us/florida-trayvon-martin-case/index.html Does this hurt her testimony in the eyes of the jurors at all? Honestly, this might bug me if I was a juror because if you're willing to lie about your age, and lie about being in the hospital when needed for questioning, then it is possible that she also lied, or "trumped" up her statements to police in order to bring justice to her bf. two issues that i would need to know: 1. when she lied. there is an issue of collateral impeachment (it may not even go into evidence under legal rules). 2. why she lied. if she has a good excuse then some people may be willing to accept that. however, there have apparently been numerous misrepresentations attributed to her so she is not looking like the best witness for the prosecutor. just a minor point, when zimmerman's wife lied, they arrested her for perjury. when trayvon's purported girlfriend/friend lied, did they arrest her for perjury? because if they arrested her, her credibility will be shot. The lie will come into evidence unless Florida has some weird evidentiary rules. Parties are given very long leashes to delve into any evidence that shows bias or motive. It would almost certainly be error to exclude evidence tending to show that the victim's girlfriend may be a serial fibber when it comes to what happened to her boyfriend. i referred specifically to collateral impeachment, which is not a "weird evidentiary rule." it is quite common.
I wasn't referring to collateral impeachment as being a weird evidentiary rule. What I was saying is that this wouldn't be an issue of collateral impeachment because the evidence goes straight to bias.
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On March 09 2013 06:19 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2013 14:36 Kaitlin wrote:On March 07 2013 12:53 sc2superfan101 wrote:
this is a really horrible case, especially because it seems the entire premiss is that Zimmerman must prove he is not guilty, rather than the prosecution prove he is guilty. has there been any evidence so far that he is guilty or is it still just a "what do you think?" game? Well, he did shoot and kill Trayvon Martin, and he admitted as much. What is else is there to prove other than whether it was justified or not ? why should it be his job to prove that though? what about innocent until proven guilty? if the prosecution can't prove that he didn't do it in self-defense than they should never have taken the case to court.
He's guilty of murder by self-affirmation. There is no trial unless he can prove he was acting in defense under the Stand Your Ground law. That's what he has to prove right?
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On March 09 2013 06:43 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 06:37 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 09 2013 06:35 xDaunt wrote:On March 09 2013 06:29 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 09 2013 06:22 ranshaked wrote:On March 09 2013 06:16 dAPhREAk wrote:Chief witness in Trayvon Martin case lied under oath The state's chief witness in the Trayvon Martin murder case lied under oath, prosecutors say.
The young woman who says she was on the phone with Martin when he encountered George Zimmerman lied about her whereabouts at another time, the prosecution told a judge Tuesday.
The woman, whose name has not been released, had told prosecutors that she was in the hospital on the day of Martin's funeral. The defense then sought her medical records.
Letters to Zimmerman show split opinions on Trayvon Martin shooting
In court on Tuesday, the state said the woman, known as Civilian Witness 8, was not in the hospital, so there are no such records to be turned over.
Prosecutors did not immediately respond to a question Wednesday from CNN about the witness's credibility and how this may affect the case.
Questions have long surrounded the woman. Martin family attorney Benjamin Crump first played an audio recording of the woman a year ago at a news conference. The recording seemed to have very poor quality.
Police said that as of that point they had not interviewed her.
Trayvon Martin's parents ready to let jury decide fate of son's killer
Crump said the witness was 16 years old. But prosecutors have since said she was already 18 -- legally an adult -- on the night of the killing, February 26, 2012, in Sanford, Florida.
Martin, 17, was walking to the house of his father's fiancee after a trip to a nearby convenience store.
Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer, has acknowledged shooting Martin.
Crump has accused Zimmerman of killing Martin "in cold blood."
Zimmerman says he acted in self-defense.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/06/us/florida-trayvon-martin-case/index.html Does this hurt her testimony in the eyes of the jurors at all? Honestly, this might bug me if I was a juror because if you're willing to lie about your age, and lie about being in the hospital when needed for questioning, then it is possible that she also lied, or "trumped" up her statements to police in order to bring justice to her bf. two issues that i would need to know: 1. when she lied. there is an issue of collateral impeachment (it may not even go into evidence under legal rules). 2. why she lied. if she has a good excuse then some people may be willing to accept that. however, there have apparently been numerous misrepresentations attributed to her so she is not looking like the best witness for the prosecutor. just a minor point, when zimmerman's wife lied, they arrested her for perjury. when trayvon's purported girlfriend/friend lied, did they arrest her for perjury? because if they arrested her, her credibility will be shot. The lie will come into evidence unless Florida has some weird evidentiary rules. Parties are given very long leashes to delve into any evidence that shows bias or motive. It would almost certainly be error to exclude evidence tending to show that the victim's girlfriend may be a serial fibber when it comes to what happened to her boyfriend. i referred specifically to collateral impeachment, which is not a "weird evidentiary rule." it is quite common. I wasn't referring to collateral impeachment as being a weird evidentiary rule. What I was saying is that this wouldn't be an issue of collateral impeachment because the issue goes straight to bias.
how so?
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On March 09 2013 06:44 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 06:19 sc2superfan101 wrote:On March 07 2013 14:36 Kaitlin wrote:On March 07 2013 12:53 sc2superfan101 wrote:
this is a really horrible case, especially because it seems the entire premiss is that Zimmerman must prove he is not guilty, rather than the prosecution prove he is guilty. has there been any evidence so far that he is guilty or is it still just a "what do you think?" game? Well, he did shoot and kill Trayvon Martin, and he admitted as much. What is else is there to prove other than whether it was justified or not ? why should it be his job to prove that though? what about innocent until proven guilty? if the prosecution can't prove that he didn't do it in self-defense than they should never have taken the case to court. He's guilty of murder by self-affirmation. There is no trial unless he can prove he was acting in defense under the Stand Your Ground law. That's what he has to prove right?
thats incorrect. first, he is not guilty of anything just because he says he killed trayvon. prosecutor still has to meet its burden. further, the state, not defendant, has to prove he was not acting in self defense under Florida's self defense law.
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EPT
