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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP.
If you make an uninformed post, or one that isn't relevant to the discussion, you will be moderated. If in doubt, don't post. |
On July 12 2013 12:27 kmillz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 12:12 Kaitlin wrote:On July 12 2013 12:09 kmillz wrote:On July 12 2013 12:04 Kaitlin wrote:On July 12 2013 12:00 kmillz wrote:Not that yahoo is known for fantastic journalism, but is it true that George Zimmerman could end up with a manslaughter charge? I thought that it was all or nothing. + Show Spoiler +SANFORD, Fla. (AP) — In an unmistakable setback for George Zimmerman, the jury at the neighborhood watch captain's second-degree murder trial was given the option Thursday of convicting him on the lesser charge of manslaughter in the shooting of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.
Judge Debra Nelson issued her ruling over the objections of Zimmerman's lawyers shortly before a prosecutor delivered a closing argument in which he portrayed the defendant as an aspiring police officer who assumed Martin was up to no good and took the law into his own hands.
"A teenager is dead. He is dead through no fault of his own," prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda told the jurors. "He is dead because a man made assumptions. ... Unfortunately because his assumptions were wrong, Trayvon Benjamin Martin no longer walks this Earth."
Because of the judge's ruling, the six jurors will have three options when they start deliberations as early as Friday: guilty of second-degree murder, guilty of manslaughter and not guilty.
Zimmerman attorney Don West had argued an all-or-nothing strategy, saying the only charge that should be put before the jury is second-degree murder.
."
View gallery
George Zimmerman arrives for his trial in Seminole …
George Zimmerman arrives for his trial in Seminole circuit court in Sanford, Fla. Thursday, July 11, …
"The state has charged him with second-degree murder. They should be required to prove it," West said. "If they had wanted to charge him with manslaughter ... they could do that."
To win a second-degree murder conviction, prosecutors must prove Zimmerman showed ill will, hatred or spite — a burden the defense has argued the state failed to meet. To get a manslaughter conviction, prosecutors must show only that Zimmerman killed without lawful justification.
Allowing the jurors to consider manslaughter could give those who aren't convinced the shooting amounted to murder a way to hold Zimmerman responsible for the death of the unarmed teen, said David Hill, an Orlando defense attorney with no connection to the case.
"From the jury's point of view, if they don't like the second-degree murder — and I can see why they don't like it — he doesn't want to give them any options to convict on lesser charges," Hill said of the defense attorney.
Because of the way Florida law imposes longer sentences for crimes committed with a gun, manslaughter could end up carrying a penalty as heavy as the one for second-degree murder: life in prison.
."
View gallery
Assistant state attorney Bernie de la Rionda presents …
Assistant state attorney Bernie de la Rionda presents the state's closing arguments in George Zimmer …
It is standard for prosecutors in Florida murder cases to ask that the jury be allowed to consider lesser charges that were not actually brought against the defendant. And it is not unusual for judges to grant such requests.
Prosecutor Richard Mantei also asked that the jury be allowed to consider third-degree murder, on the premise that Zimmerman committed child abuse when he shot the underage Martin. Zimmerman's lawyer called that "bizarre" and "outrageous," and the judge sided with the defense.
Zimmerman, 29, got into a scuffle with Martin after spotting the teen while driving through his gated townhouse complex on a rainy night in February 2012. Zimmerman has claimed he fired in self-defense after Martin sucker-punched him and began slamming his head into the pavement. Prosecutors have disputed his account and portrayed him as the aggressor.
During closing arguments, de la Rionda argued that Zimmerman showed ill will and hatred when he whispered profanities to a police dispatcher over his cellphone while following Martin through the neighborhood. He said Zimmerman "profiled" the teenager as a criminal.
"He assumed Trayvon Martin was a criminal," de la Rionda said. "That is why we are here."
."
View gallery
George Zimmerman stands for instructions from Judge …
George Zimmerman stands for instructions from Judge Debra Nelson with attorney Lorna Truett, left, a …
The prosecutor told the jury that Zimmerman wanted to be a police officer and that's why he followed Martin. But "the law doesn't allow people to take the law into their own hands," de la Rionda said.
De la Rionda's two-hour presentation also included moments when he seemed to appeal to jurors' emotions by showing a head shot from Martin's autopsy and a face-up crime scene photo of Martin. Several jurors looked away.
The prosecutor also repeatedly asked why Zimmerman left his truck the night of the shooting.
"Why does this defendant get out of his car if he thought Trayvon Martin is a threat to him?" de la Rionda asked. "Why? Because he had a gun."
Later, when he straddled a foam mannequin to dispute Zimmerman's account of how the struggle unfolded, the entire back row of jurors stood. One juror even stepped down to get a better view.
."
View gallery
George Zimmerman's parents, Robert Zimmerman Sr., left, …
George Zimmerman's parents, Robert Zimmerman Sr., left, and Gladys Zimmerman sit in court for closin …
De la Rionda implored jurors to believe the account of Martin's friend Rachel Jeantel, who was on the phone with him moments before the shooting and said she heard him yelling, "Get off!" The prosecutor asked jurors to discount her "colorful language," and he put a twist on a quote by the Rev. Martin Luther King to persuade them.
"She should be judged not by the color of her personality but by the content of her testimony," de la Rionda said.
Zimmerman's lawyers are expected to deliver their closing arguments Friday morning. Decision made today to provide an instruction for manslaughter as a lesser-included offense. That's interesting, I suppose it really shouldn't change too much though because that would still mean they have to prove he wasn't acting in self-defense (legal justification) right? They just no longer have to prove he killed Trayvon out of ill-will or spite. Yeah, self-defense definitely protects against both, however there is concern over the jury "compromising" to manslaughter, which will carry quite nearly the same severe punishment as murder 2. Will they be informed that life in prison is still on the table with manslaughter before they make their decision as to whether he gets murder 2, manslaughter, or not guilty? Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 12:27 Defacer wrote:On July 12 2013 12:13 sc2superfan101 wrote:On July 12 2013 11:58 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 12 2013 11:56 sc2superfan101 wrote:
I want anyone to give me a scenario in which it is at all possible, given the evidence we've now seen, that Zimmerman somehow ran down a physically fit, 17 year old football player, and then started a fight only to get on the losing end (John Good's testimony), and then take back control of the fight (without injuring Trayvon in any way) and shoot him.
Because that sequence of events is 100% required to have occurred for Zimmerman to be guilty of what he's charged, and that, to me, is so unbelievably absurd a scenario that you might as well say that Zimmerman used his secret spiderman powers to do it. he can still get manslaughter without needing to meet all your strict requirements Well, first, anything else and he was acting in self-defense and that covers manslaughter. Also, is there a scenario that exists that is plausible given the evidence that could lead to a manslaughter/murder charge? The prosecution certainly never offered one (pretty rare in this kind of case), and I have yet to hear one. The only scenario I can think of is that George Zimmerman drew the gun on Trayvon, or flashed the gun at Trayvon as a threat. Trayvon, believing his life was in danger, lunged at Zimmerman and tried to plummel him in self-defense, and after a brief struggle Zimmerman got a shot off. There's no evidence that happened of course. At the same time, we're assuming based on Zimmerman's testimony that Trayvon was unaware that Zimmerman had a gun or that Zimmerman didn't draw his gun prematurely. Right? That's a bit of a stretch..but to quote the use of force expert: "anything's possible..that doesn't make it plausible" 
They won't be advised of potential sentences.
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On July 12 2013 12:30 kmillz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 12:29 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 12 2013 12:27 kmillz wrote:On July 12 2013 12:12 Kaitlin wrote:On July 12 2013 12:09 kmillz wrote:On July 12 2013 12:04 Kaitlin wrote:On July 12 2013 12:00 kmillz wrote:Not that yahoo is known for fantastic journalism, but is it true that George Zimmerman could end up with a manslaughter charge? I thought that it was all or nothing. + Show Spoiler +SANFORD, Fla. (AP) — In an unmistakable setback for George Zimmerman, the jury at the neighborhood watch captain's second-degree murder trial was given the option Thursday of convicting him on the lesser charge of manslaughter in the shooting of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.
Judge Debra Nelson issued her ruling over the objections of Zimmerman's lawyers shortly before a prosecutor delivered a closing argument in which he portrayed the defendant as an aspiring police officer who assumed Martin was up to no good and took the law into his own hands.
"A teenager is dead. He is dead through no fault of his own," prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda told the jurors. "He is dead because a man made assumptions. ... Unfortunately because his assumptions were wrong, Trayvon Benjamin Martin no longer walks this Earth."
Because of the judge's ruling, the six jurors will have three options when they start deliberations as early as Friday: guilty of second-degree murder, guilty of manslaughter and not guilty.
Zimmerman attorney Don West had argued an all-or-nothing strategy, saying the only charge that should be put before the jury is second-degree murder.
."
View gallery
George Zimmerman arrives for his trial in Seminole …
George Zimmerman arrives for his trial in Seminole circuit court in Sanford, Fla. Thursday, July 11, …
"The state has charged him with second-degree murder. They should be required to prove it," West said. "If they had wanted to charge him with manslaughter ... they could do that."
To win a second-degree murder conviction, prosecutors must prove Zimmerman showed ill will, hatred or spite — a burden the defense has argued the state failed to meet. To get a manslaughter conviction, prosecutors must show only that Zimmerman killed without lawful justification.
Allowing the jurors to consider manslaughter could give those who aren't convinced the shooting amounted to murder a way to hold Zimmerman responsible for the death of the unarmed teen, said David Hill, an Orlando defense attorney with no connection to the case.
"From the jury's point of view, if they don't like the second-degree murder — and I can see why they don't like it — he doesn't want to give them any options to convict on lesser charges," Hill said of the defense attorney.
Because of the way Florida law imposes longer sentences for crimes committed with a gun, manslaughter could end up carrying a penalty as heavy as the one for second-degree murder: life in prison.
."
View gallery
Assistant state attorney Bernie de la Rionda presents …
Assistant state attorney Bernie de la Rionda presents the state's closing arguments in George Zimmer …
It is standard for prosecutors in Florida murder cases to ask that the jury be allowed to consider lesser charges that were not actually brought against the defendant. And it is not unusual for judges to grant such requests.
Prosecutor Richard Mantei also asked that the jury be allowed to consider third-degree murder, on the premise that Zimmerman committed child abuse when he shot the underage Martin. Zimmerman's lawyer called that "bizarre" and "outrageous," and the judge sided with the defense.
Zimmerman, 29, got into a scuffle with Martin after spotting the teen while driving through his gated townhouse complex on a rainy night in February 2012. Zimmerman has claimed he fired in self-defense after Martin sucker-punched him and began slamming his head into the pavement. Prosecutors have disputed his account and portrayed him as the aggressor.
During closing arguments, de la Rionda argued that Zimmerman showed ill will and hatred when he whispered profanities to a police dispatcher over his cellphone while following Martin through the neighborhood. He said Zimmerman "profiled" the teenager as a criminal.
"He assumed Trayvon Martin was a criminal," de la Rionda said. "That is why we are here."
."
View gallery
George Zimmerman stands for instructions from Judge …
George Zimmerman stands for instructions from Judge Debra Nelson with attorney Lorna Truett, left, a …
The prosecutor told the jury that Zimmerman wanted to be a police officer and that's why he followed Martin. But "the law doesn't allow people to take the law into their own hands," de la Rionda said.
De la Rionda's two-hour presentation also included moments when he seemed to appeal to jurors' emotions by showing a head shot from Martin's autopsy and a face-up crime scene photo of Martin. Several jurors looked away.
The prosecutor also repeatedly asked why Zimmerman left his truck the night of the shooting.
"Why does this defendant get out of his car if he thought Trayvon Martin is a threat to him?" de la Rionda asked. "Why? Because he had a gun."
Later, when he straddled a foam mannequin to dispute Zimmerman's account of how the struggle unfolded, the entire back row of jurors stood. One juror even stepped down to get a better view.
."
View gallery
George Zimmerman's parents, Robert Zimmerman Sr., left, …
George Zimmerman's parents, Robert Zimmerman Sr., left, and Gladys Zimmerman sit in court for closin …
De la Rionda implored jurors to believe the account of Martin's friend Rachel Jeantel, who was on the phone with him moments before the shooting and said she heard him yelling, "Get off!" The prosecutor asked jurors to discount her "colorful language," and he put a twist on a quote by the Rev. Martin Luther King to persuade them.
"She should be judged not by the color of her personality but by the content of her testimony," de la Rionda said.
Zimmerman's lawyers are expected to deliver their closing arguments Friday morning. Decision made today to provide an instruction for manslaughter as a lesser-included offense. That's interesting, I suppose it really shouldn't change too much though because that would still mean they have to prove he wasn't acting in self-defense (legal justification) right? They just no longer have to prove he killed Trayvon out of ill-will or spite. Yeah, self-defense definitely protects against both, however there is concern over the jury "compromising" to manslaughter, which will carry quite nearly the same severe punishment as murder 2. Will they be informed that life in prison is still on the table with manslaughter before they make their decision as to whether he gets murder 2, manslaughter, or not guilty? no. thats an improper consideration. Well shit, I don't get why they didn't just try him for manslaughter in the first place given that murder 2 and manslaughter could result in the exact same punishment..and given that murder 2 is a little harder to prove.
common to overcharge with the hope that the jury splits the baby (e.g., well, i dont think he is guilty of murder 2, but i will give them manslaughter).
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On July 12 2013 12:30 kmillz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 12:29 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 12 2013 12:27 kmillz wrote:On July 12 2013 12:12 Kaitlin wrote:On July 12 2013 12:09 kmillz wrote:On July 12 2013 12:04 Kaitlin wrote:On July 12 2013 12:00 kmillz wrote:Not that yahoo is known for fantastic journalism, but is it true that George Zimmerman could end up with a manslaughter charge? I thought that it was all or nothing. + Show Spoiler +SANFORD, Fla. (AP) — In an unmistakable setback for George Zimmerman, the jury at the neighborhood watch captain's second-degree murder trial was given the option Thursday of convicting him on the lesser charge of manslaughter in the shooting of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.
Judge Debra Nelson issued her ruling over the objections of Zimmerman's lawyers shortly before a prosecutor delivered a closing argument in which he portrayed the defendant as an aspiring police officer who assumed Martin was up to no good and took the law into his own hands.
"A teenager is dead. He is dead through no fault of his own," prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda told the jurors. "He is dead because a man made assumptions. ... Unfortunately because his assumptions were wrong, Trayvon Benjamin Martin no longer walks this Earth."
Because of the judge's ruling, the six jurors will have three options when they start deliberations as early as Friday: guilty of second-degree murder, guilty of manslaughter and not guilty.
Zimmerman attorney Don West had argued an all-or-nothing strategy, saying the only charge that should be put before the jury is second-degree murder.
."
View gallery
George Zimmerman arrives for his trial in Seminole …
George Zimmerman arrives for his trial in Seminole circuit court in Sanford, Fla. Thursday, July 11, …
"The state has charged him with second-degree murder. They should be required to prove it," West said. "If they had wanted to charge him with manslaughter ... they could do that."
To win a second-degree murder conviction, prosecutors must prove Zimmerman showed ill will, hatred or spite — a burden the defense has argued the state failed to meet. To get a manslaughter conviction, prosecutors must show only that Zimmerman killed without lawful justification.
Allowing the jurors to consider manslaughter could give those who aren't convinced the shooting amounted to murder a way to hold Zimmerman responsible for the death of the unarmed teen, said David Hill, an Orlando defense attorney with no connection to the case.
"From the jury's point of view, if they don't like the second-degree murder — and I can see why they don't like it — he doesn't want to give them any options to convict on lesser charges," Hill said of the defense attorney.
Because of the way Florida law imposes longer sentences for crimes committed with a gun, manslaughter could end up carrying a penalty as heavy as the one for second-degree murder: life in prison.
."
View gallery
Assistant state attorney Bernie de la Rionda presents …
Assistant state attorney Bernie de la Rionda presents the state's closing arguments in George Zimmer …
It is standard for prosecutors in Florida murder cases to ask that the jury be allowed to consider lesser charges that were not actually brought against the defendant. And it is not unusual for judges to grant such requests.
Prosecutor Richard Mantei also asked that the jury be allowed to consider third-degree murder, on the premise that Zimmerman committed child abuse when he shot the underage Martin. Zimmerman's lawyer called that "bizarre" and "outrageous," and the judge sided with the defense.
Zimmerman, 29, got into a scuffle with Martin after spotting the teen while driving through his gated townhouse complex on a rainy night in February 2012. Zimmerman has claimed he fired in self-defense after Martin sucker-punched him and began slamming his head into the pavement. Prosecutors have disputed his account and portrayed him as the aggressor.
During closing arguments, de la Rionda argued that Zimmerman showed ill will and hatred when he whispered profanities to a police dispatcher over his cellphone while following Martin through the neighborhood. He said Zimmerman "profiled" the teenager as a criminal.
"He assumed Trayvon Martin was a criminal," de la Rionda said. "That is why we are here."
."
View gallery
George Zimmerman stands for instructions from Judge …
George Zimmerman stands for instructions from Judge Debra Nelson with attorney Lorna Truett, left, a …
The prosecutor told the jury that Zimmerman wanted to be a police officer and that's why he followed Martin. But "the law doesn't allow people to take the law into their own hands," de la Rionda said.
De la Rionda's two-hour presentation also included moments when he seemed to appeal to jurors' emotions by showing a head shot from Martin's autopsy and a face-up crime scene photo of Martin. Several jurors looked away.
The prosecutor also repeatedly asked why Zimmerman left his truck the night of the shooting.
"Why does this defendant get out of his car if he thought Trayvon Martin is a threat to him?" de la Rionda asked. "Why? Because he had a gun."
Later, when he straddled a foam mannequin to dispute Zimmerman's account of how the struggle unfolded, the entire back row of jurors stood. One juror even stepped down to get a better view.
."
View gallery
George Zimmerman's parents, Robert Zimmerman Sr., left, …
George Zimmerman's parents, Robert Zimmerman Sr., left, and Gladys Zimmerman sit in court for closin …
De la Rionda implored jurors to believe the account of Martin's friend Rachel Jeantel, who was on the phone with him moments before the shooting and said she heard him yelling, "Get off!" The prosecutor asked jurors to discount her "colorful language," and he put a twist on a quote by the Rev. Martin Luther King to persuade them.
"She should be judged not by the color of her personality but by the content of her testimony," de la Rionda said.
Zimmerman's lawyers are expected to deliver their closing arguments Friday morning. Decision made today to provide an instruction for manslaughter as a lesser-included offense. That's interesting, I suppose it really shouldn't change too much though because that would still mean they have to prove he wasn't acting in self-defense (legal justification) right? They just no longer have to prove he killed Trayvon out of ill-will or spite. Yeah, self-defense definitely protects against both, however there is concern over the jury "compromising" to manslaughter, which will carry quite nearly the same severe punishment as murder 2. Will they be informed that life in prison is still on the table with manslaughter before they make their decision as to whether he gets murder 2, manslaughter, or not guilty? no. thats an improper consideration. Well shit, I don't get why they didn't just try him for manslaughter in the first place given that murder 2 and manslaughter could result in the exact same punishment..and given that murder 2 is a little harder to prove.
That wouldn't have appeased the race mongers.
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On July 12 2013 12:33 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 12:30 kmillz wrote:On July 12 2013 12:29 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 12 2013 12:27 kmillz wrote:On July 12 2013 12:12 Kaitlin wrote:On July 12 2013 12:09 kmillz wrote:On July 12 2013 12:04 Kaitlin wrote:On July 12 2013 12:00 kmillz wrote:Not that yahoo is known for fantastic journalism, but is it true that George Zimmerman could end up with a manslaughter charge? I thought that it was all or nothing. + Show Spoiler +SANFORD, Fla. (AP) — In an unmistakable setback for George Zimmerman, the jury at the neighborhood watch captain's second-degree murder trial was given the option Thursday of convicting him on the lesser charge of manslaughter in the shooting of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.
Judge Debra Nelson issued her ruling over the objections of Zimmerman's lawyers shortly before a prosecutor delivered a closing argument in which he portrayed the defendant as an aspiring police officer who assumed Martin was up to no good and took the law into his own hands.
"A teenager is dead. He is dead through no fault of his own," prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda told the jurors. "He is dead because a man made assumptions. ... Unfortunately because his assumptions were wrong, Trayvon Benjamin Martin no longer walks this Earth."
Because of the judge's ruling, the six jurors will have three options when they start deliberations as early as Friday: guilty of second-degree murder, guilty of manslaughter and not guilty.
Zimmerman attorney Don West had argued an all-or-nothing strategy, saying the only charge that should be put before the jury is second-degree murder.
."
View gallery
George Zimmerman arrives for his trial in Seminole …
George Zimmerman arrives for his trial in Seminole circuit court in Sanford, Fla. Thursday, July 11, …
"The state has charged him with second-degree murder. They should be required to prove it," West said. "If they had wanted to charge him with manslaughter ... they could do that."
To win a second-degree murder conviction, prosecutors must prove Zimmerman showed ill will, hatred or spite — a burden the defense has argued the state failed to meet. To get a manslaughter conviction, prosecutors must show only that Zimmerman killed without lawful justification.
Allowing the jurors to consider manslaughter could give those who aren't convinced the shooting amounted to murder a way to hold Zimmerman responsible for the death of the unarmed teen, said David Hill, an Orlando defense attorney with no connection to the case.
"From the jury's point of view, if they don't like the second-degree murder — and I can see why they don't like it — he doesn't want to give them any options to convict on lesser charges," Hill said of the defense attorney.
Because of the way Florida law imposes longer sentences for crimes committed with a gun, manslaughter could end up carrying a penalty as heavy as the one for second-degree murder: life in prison.
."
View gallery
Assistant state attorney Bernie de la Rionda presents …
Assistant state attorney Bernie de la Rionda presents the state's closing arguments in George Zimmer …
It is standard for prosecutors in Florida murder cases to ask that the jury be allowed to consider lesser charges that were not actually brought against the defendant. And it is not unusual for judges to grant such requests.
Prosecutor Richard Mantei also asked that the jury be allowed to consider third-degree murder, on the premise that Zimmerman committed child abuse when he shot the underage Martin. Zimmerman's lawyer called that "bizarre" and "outrageous," and the judge sided with the defense.
Zimmerman, 29, got into a scuffle with Martin after spotting the teen while driving through his gated townhouse complex on a rainy night in February 2012. Zimmerman has claimed he fired in self-defense after Martin sucker-punched him and began slamming his head into the pavement. Prosecutors have disputed his account and portrayed him as the aggressor.
During closing arguments, de la Rionda argued that Zimmerman showed ill will and hatred when he whispered profanities to a police dispatcher over his cellphone while following Martin through the neighborhood. He said Zimmerman "profiled" the teenager as a criminal.
"He assumed Trayvon Martin was a criminal," de la Rionda said. "That is why we are here."
."
View gallery
George Zimmerman stands for instructions from Judge …
George Zimmerman stands for instructions from Judge Debra Nelson with attorney Lorna Truett, left, a …
The prosecutor told the jury that Zimmerman wanted to be a police officer and that's why he followed Martin. But "the law doesn't allow people to take the law into their own hands," de la Rionda said.
De la Rionda's two-hour presentation also included moments when he seemed to appeal to jurors' emotions by showing a head shot from Martin's autopsy and a face-up crime scene photo of Martin. Several jurors looked away.
The prosecutor also repeatedly asked why Zimmerman left his truck the night of the shooting.
"Why does this defendant get out of his car if he thought Trayvon Martin is a threat to him?" de la Rionda asked. "Why? Because he had a gun."
Later, when he straddled a foam mannequin to dispute Zimmerman's account of how the struggle unfolded, the entire back row of jurors stood. One juror even stepped down to get a better view.
."
View gallery
George Zimmerman's parents, Robert Zimmerman Sr., left, …
George Zimmerman's parents, Robert Zimmerman Sr., left, and Gladys Zimmerman sit in court for closin …
De la Rionda implored jurors to believe the account of Martin's friend Rachel Jeantel, who was on the phone with him moments before the shooting and said she heard him yelling, "Get off!" The prosecutor asked jurors to discount her "colorful language," and he put a twist on a quote by the Rev. Martin Luther King to persuade them.
"She should be judged not by the color of her personality but by the content of her testimony," de la Rionda said.
Zimmerman's lawyers are expected to deliver their closing arguments Friday morning. Decision made today to provide an instruction for manslaughter as a lesser-included offense. That's interesting, I suppose it really shouldn't change too much though because that would still mean they have to prove he wasn't acting in self-defense (legal justification) right? They just no longer have to prove he killed Trayvon out of ill-will or spite. Yeah, self-defense definitely protects against both, however there is concern over the jury "compromising" to manslaughter, which will carry quite nearly the same severe punishment as murder 2. Will they be informed that life in prison is still on the table with manslaughter before they make their decision as to whether he gets murder 2, manslaughter, or not guilty? no. thats an improper consideration. Well shit, I don't get why they didn't just try him for manslaughter in the first place given that murder 2 and manslaughter could result in the exact same punishment..and given that murder 2 is a little harder to prove. common to overcharge with the hope that the jury splits the baby (e.g., well, i dont think he is guilty of murder 2, but i will give them manslaughter).
That seems ... wrong. I didn't realize trial law was like selling real estate (listing a place higher than perhaps you're willing to sell it for).
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On July 12 2013 12:35 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 12:33 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 12 2013 12:30 kmillz wrote:On July 12 2013 12:29 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 12 2013 12:27 kmillz wrote:On July 12 2013 12:12 Kaitlin wrote:On July 12 2013 12:09 kmillz wrote:On July 12 2013 12:04 Kaitlin wrote:On July 12 2013 12:00 kmillz wrote:Not that yahoo is known for fantastic journalism, but is it true that George Zimmerman could end up with a manslaughter charge? I thought that it was all or nothing. + Show Spoiler +SANFORD, Fla. (AP) — In an unmistakable setback for George Zimmerman, the jury at the neighborhood watch captain's second-degree murder trial was given the option Thursday of convicting him on the lesser charge of manslaughter in the shooting of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.
Judge Debra Nelson issued her ruling over the objections of Zimmerman's lawyers shortly before a prosecutor delivered a closing argument in which he portrayed the defendant as an aspiring police officer who assumed Martin was up to no good and took the law into his own hands.
"A teenager is dead. He is dead through no fault of his own," prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda told the jurors. "He is dead because a man made assumptions. ... Unfortunately because his assumptions were wrong, Trayvon Benjamin Martin no longer walks this Earth."
Because of the judge's ruling, the six jurors will have three options when they start deliberations as early as Friday: guilty of second-degree murder, guilty of manslaughter and not guilty.
Zimmerman attorney Don West had argued an all-or-nothing strategy, saying the only charge that should be put before the jury is second-degree murder.
."
View gallery
George Zimmerman arrives for his trial in Seminole …
George Zimmerman arrives for his trial in Seminole circuit court in Sanford, Fla. Thursday, July 11, …
"The state has charged him with second-degree murder. They should be required to prove it," West said. "If they had wanted to charge him with manslaughter ... they could do that."
To win a second-degree murder conviction, prosecutors must prove Zimmerman showed ill will, hatred or spite — a burden the defense has argued the state failed to meet. To get a manslaughter conviction, prosecutors must show only that Zimmerman killed without lawful justification.
Allowing the jurors to consider manslaughter could give those who aren't convinced the shooting amounted to murder a way to hold Zimmerman responsible for the death of the unarmed teen, said David Hill, an Orlando defense attorney with no connection to the case.
"From the jury's point of view, if they don't like the second-degree murder — and I can see why they don't like it — he doesn't want to give them any options to convict on lesser charges," Hill said of the defense attorney.
Because of the way Florida law imposes longer sentences for crimes committed with a gun, manslaughter could end up carrying a penalty as heavy as the one for second-degree murder: life in prison.
."
View gallery
Assistant state attorney Bernie de la Rionda presents …
Assistant state attorney Bernie de la Rionda presents the state's closing arguments in George Zimmer …
It is standard for prosecutors in Florida murder cases to ask that the jury be allowed to consider lesser charges that were not actually brought against the defendant. And it is not unusual for judges to grant such requests.
Prosecutor Richard Mantei also asked that the jury be allowed to consider third-degree murder, on the premise that Zimmerman committed child abuse when he shot the underage Martin. Zimmerman's lawyer called that "bizarre" and "outrageous," and the judge sided with the defense.
Zimmerman, 29, got into a scuffle with Martin after spotting the teen while driving through his gated townhouse complex on a rainy night in February 2012. Zimmerman has claimed he fired in self-defense after Martin sucker-punched him and began slamming his head into the pavement. Prosecutors have disputed his account and portrayed him as the aggressor.
During closing arguments, de la Rionda argued that Zimmerman showed ill will and hatred when he whispered profanities to a police dispatcher over his cellphone while following Martin through the neighborhood. He said Zimmerman "profiled" the teenager as a criminal.
"He assumed Trayvon Martin was a criminal," de la Rionda said. "That is why we are here."
."
View gallery
George Zimmerman stands for instructions from Judge …
George Zimmerman stands for instructions from Judge Debra Nelson with attorney Lorna Truett, left, a …
The prosecutor told the jury that Zimmerman wanted to be a police officer and that's why he followed Martin. But "the law doesn't allow people to take the law into their own hands," de la Rionda said.
De la Rionda's two-hour presentation also included moments when he seemed to appeal to jurors' emotions by showing a head shot from Martin's autopsy and a face-up crime scene photo of Martin. Several jurors looked away.
The prosecutor also repeatedly asked why Zimmerman left his truck the night of the shooting.
"Why does this defendant get out of his car if he thought Trayvon Martin is a threat to him?" de la Rionda asked. "Why? Because he had a gun."
Later, when he straddled a foam mannequin to dispute Zimmerman's account of how the struggle unfolded, the entire back row of jurors stood. One juror even stepped down to get a better view.
."
View gallery
George Zimmerman's parents, Robert Zimmerman Sr., left, …
George Zimmerman's parents, Robert Zimmerman Sr., left, and Gladys Zimmerman sit in court for closin …
De la Rionda implored jurors to believe the account of Martin's friend Rachel Jeantel, who was on the phone with him moments before the shooting and said she heard him yelling, "Get off!" The prosecutor asked jurors to discount her "colorful language," and he put a twist on a quote by the Rev. Martin Luther King to persuade them.
"She should be judged not by the color of her personality but by the content of her testimony," de la Rionda said.
Zimmerman's lawyers are expected to deliver their closing arguments Friday morning. Decision made today to provide an instruction for manslaughter as a lesser-included offense. That's interesting, I suppose it really shouldn't change too much though because that would still mean they have to prove he wasn't acting in self-defense (legal justification) right? They just no longer have to prove he killed Trayvon out of ill-will or spite. Yeah, self-defense definitely protects against both, however there is concern over the jury "compromising" to manslaughter, which will carry quite nearly the same severe punishment as murder 2. Will they be informed that life in prison is still on the table with manslaughter before they make their decision as to whether he gets murder 2, manslaughter, or not guilty? no. thats an improper consideration. Well shit, I don't get why they didn't just try him for manslaughter in the first place given that murder 2 and manslaughter could result in the exact same punishment..and given that murder 2 is a little harder to prove. common to overcharge with the hope that the jury splits the baby (e.g., well, i dont think he is guilty of murder 2, but i will give them manslaughter). That seems ... wrong. I didn't realize trial law was like selling real estate (listing a place higher than perhaps you're willing to sell it for).
I agree, on the other hand I could see how it might have the potential to backfire (similar to how pricing a house too high could deter potential buyers because it is too outrageously high). E.g. well they did a miserable job selling me on murder 2, i've already made up my mind about not guilty..
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On July 12 2013 12:33 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 12:30 kmillz wrote:On July 12 2013 12:29 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 12 2013 12:27 kmillz wrote:On July 12 2013 12:12 Kaitlin wrote:On July 12 2013 12:09 kmillz wrote:On July 12 2013 12:04 Kaitlin wrote:On July 12 2013 12:00 kmillz wrote:Not that yahoo is known for fantastic journalism, but is it true that George Zimmerman could end up with a manslaughter charge? I thought that it was all or nothing. + Show Spoiler +SANFORD, Fla. (AP) — In an unmistakable setback for George Zimmerman, the jury at the neighborhood watch captain's second-degree murder trial was given the option Thursday of convicting him on the lesser charge of manslaughter in the shooting of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.
Judge Debra Nelson issued her ruling over the objections of Zimmerman's lawyers shortly before a prosecutor delivered a closing argument in which he portrayed the defendant as an aspiring police officer who assumed Martin was up to no good and took the law into his own hands.
"A teenager is dead. He is dead through no fault of his own," prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda told the jurors. "He is dead because a man made assumptions. ... Unfortunately because his assumptions were wrong, Trayvon Benjamin Martin no longer walks this Earth."
Because of the judge's ruling, the six jurors will have three options when they start deliberations as early as Friday: guilty of second-degree murder, guilty of manslaughter and not guilty.
Zimmerman attorney Don West had argued an all-or-nothing strategy, saying the only charge that should be put before the jury is second-degree murder.
."
View gallery
George Zimmerman arrives for his trial in Seminole …
George Zimmerman arrives for his trial in Seminole circuit court in Sanford, Fla. Thursday, July 11, …
"The state has charged him with second-degree murder. They should be required to prove it," West said. "If they had wanted to charge him with manslaughter ... they could do that."
To win a second-degree murder conviction, prosecutors must prove Zimmerman showed ill will, hatred or spite — a burden the defense has argued the state failed to meet. To get a manslaughter conviction, prosecutors must show only that Zimmerman killed without lawful justification.
Allowing the jurors to consider manslaughter could give those who aren't convinced the shooting amounted to murder a way to hold Zimmerman responsible for the death of the unarmed teen, said David Hill, an Orlando defense attorney with no connection to the case.
"From the jury's point of view, if they don't like the second-degree murder — and I can see why they don't like it — he doesn't want to give them any options to convict on lesser charges," Hill said of the defense attorney.
Because of the way Florida law imposes longer sentences for crimes committed with a gun, manslaughter could end up carrying a penalty as heavy as the one for second-degree murder: life in prison.
."
View gallery
Assistant state attorney Bernie de la Rionda presents …
Assistant state attorney Bernie de la Rionda presents the state's closing arguments in George Zimmer …
It is standard for prosecutors in Florida murder cases to ask that the jury be allowed to consider lesser charges that were not actually brought against the defendant. And it is not unusual for judges to grant such requests.
Prosecutor Richard Mantei also asked that the jury be allowed to consider third-degree murder, on the premise that Zimmerman committed child abuse when he shot the underage Martin. Zimmerman's lawyer called that "bizarre" and "outrageous," and the judge sided with the defense.
Zimmerman, 29, got into a scuffle with Martin after spotting the teen while driving through his gated townhouse complex on a rainy night in February 2012. Zimmerman has claimed he fired in self-defense after Martin sucker-punched him and began slamming his head into the pavement. Prosecutors have disputed his account and portrayed him as the aggressor.
During closing arguments, de la Rionda argued that Zimmerman showed ill will and hatred when he whispered profanities to a police dispatcher over his cellphone while following Martin through the neighborhood. He said Zimmerman "profiled" the teenager as a criminal.
"He assumed Trayvon Martin was a criminal," de la Rionda said. "That is why we are here."
."
View gallery
George Zimmerman stands for instructions from Judge …
George Zimmerman stands for instructions from Judge Debra Nelson with attorney Lorna Truett, left, a …
The prosecutor told the jury that Zimmerman wanted to be a police officer and that's why he followed Martin. But "the law doesn't allow people to take the law into their own hands," de la Rionda said.
De la Rionda's two-hour presentation also included moments when he seemed to appeal to jurors' emotions by showing a head shot from Martin's autopsy and a face-up crime scene photo of Martin. Several jurors looked away.
The prosecutor also repeatedly asked why Zimmerman left his truck the night of the shooting.
"Why does this defendant get out of his car if he thought Trayvon Martin is a threat to him?" de la Rionda asked. "Why? Because he had a gun."
Later, when he straddled a foam mannequin to dispute Zimmerman's account of how the struggle unfolded, the entire back row of jurors stood. One juror even stepped down to get a better view.
."
View gallery
George Zimmerman's parents, Robert Zimmerman Sr., left, …
George Zimmerman's parents, Robert Zimmerman Sr., left, and Gladys Zimmerman sit in court for closin …
De la Rionda implored jurors to believe the account of Martin's friend Rachel Jeantel, who was on the phone with him moments before the shooting and said she heard him yelling, "Get off!" The prosecutor asked jurors to discount her "colorful language," and he put a twist on a quote by the Rev. Martin Luther King to persuade them.
"She should be judged not by the color of her personality but by the content of her testimony," de la Rionda said.
Zimmerman's lawyers are expected to deliver their closing arguments Friday morning. Decision made today to provide an instruction for manslaughter as a lesser-included offense. That's interesting, I suppose it really shouldn't change too much though because that would still mean they have to prove he wasn't acting in self-defense (legal justification) right? They just no longer have to prove he killed Trayvon out of ill-will or spite. Yeah, self-defense definitely protects against both, however there is concern over the jury "compromising" to manslaughter, which will carry quite nearly the same severe punishment as murder 2. Will they be informed that life in prison is still on the table with manslaughter before they make their decision as to whether he gets murder 2, manslaughter, or not guilty? no. thats an improper consideration. Well shit, I don't get why they didn't just try him for manslaughter in the first place given that murder 2 and manslaughter could result in the exact same punishment..and given that murder 2 is a little harder to prove. common to overcharge with the hope that the jury splits the baby (e.g., well, i dont think he is guilty of murder 2, but i will give them manslaughter).
So do you think the prosecution had this whole slapping on manslaughter at the end of the trial stunt planned from the beginning?
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On July 12 2013 12:21 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 12:13 sc2superfan101 wrote:On July 12 2013 11:58 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 12 2013 11:56 sc2superfan101 wrote:
I want anyone to give me a scenario in which it is at all possible, given the evidence we've now seen, that Zimmerman somehow ran down a physically fit, 17 year old football player, and then started a fight only to get on the losing end (John Good's testimony), and then take back control of the fight (without injuring Trayvon in any way) and shoot him.
Because that sequence of events is 100% required to have occurred for Zimmerman to be guilty of what he's charged, and that, to me, is so unbelievably absurd a scenario that you might as well say that Zimmerman used his secret spiderman powers to do it. he can still get manslaughter without needing to meet all your strict requirements Well, first, anything else and he was acting in self-defense and that covers manslaughter. Also, is there a scenario that exists that is plausible given the evidence that could lead to a manslaughter/murder charge? The prosecution certainly never offered one (pretty rare in this kind of case), and I have yet to hear one. zimmerman, pissed that these fucking black punks were getting away with breaking into white mothers' homes and scaring them to death, decides that the next time he sees a black punk in his neighborhood, he was going to get him. proceeds to buy gun. his chance finally arrives: trayvon martin. zimmerman runs down trayvon to confront him thinking that the young kid would be intimated by his size and supersized superman complex. zimmerman yells "what are you doing in my neighborhood punk?" trayvon yells "why you following me" zimmerman gets in trayvon's face. trayvon throws a punch and predictably, soft and .5 zimmerman falls to teh ground and hits his head. trayvon jumps on top to restrain his dumbass and is reaching down over and over and over and over....to try to grab zimmerman's arms rather than punch him MMA style. john good comes out "hey you guys, cant we all just get along, im calling the cops." zimmerman uses the amazing buoyancy of his fat ass to knock trayvon off kilter. trayvon starts pulling back to get away knowing that help was coming via Good. zimmerman pulls out his gun, aims it at trayvon's heart and says "got you you fucking punk" with a gleam in his eye and a smirk of his lip. BAM. one less fucking punk in the neighborhood. also, murder 2.
You forgot to mention the part where those fucking assholes always get away.
Pretty good though, 7/10.
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On July 12 2013 12:16 Myrddraal wrote:
Well from her testimony (which I do agree is shaky) it sounded like Zimmerman initially was the aggressor and tried to grab Trayvon or something 'she heard Trayvon saying, "Get off. Get off,"'. There wouldn't be much physical evidence if he didn't actually actually physically hit him, and under the circumstances it would be understandable that Trayvon felt the need to defend himself since he had done nothing wrong and (as far as we know) received no explanation, though of course at a certain point Trayvon got the upper hand and was no longer defending himself.
By "something wrong prior" I meant that assuming that the above scenario was the case, that he followed Trayvon (not inherently wrong), attempted to subdue him (not extremely wrong, possibly only worthy of an assault charge) and after fearing for his life he killed Trayvon. So if this were the sequence of events, what he did initially may not be worthy of a harsh conviction, the result was the death of a person and I still feel he would be responsible.
So according to her testimony, Trayvon left his father's fiancee's backyard, and went out looking for Zimmerman. Then Zimmerman approached him and attempted to physically subdue him, despite having no good reason for doing so, as he only observed Trayvon walking in the rain and not doing anything unlawful (not being sarcastic here). Pretty odd behavior for Zimmerman.
And now you, hearing her testimony, believe it over a much more plausible version of events, which is the version put forward by Zimmerman and his defensive team, and you want to send Zimmerman to jail for it? I realize that there's a non-zero chance that Zimmerman did act completely out of line that night, and it's really impossible to know for sure. But on balance, Zimmerman's story seems much likelier, to me at least.
On July 12 2013 12:16 Myrddraal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 11:56 sc2superfan101 wrote:
I want anyone to give me a scenario in which it is at all possible, given the evidence we've now seen, that Zimmerman somehow ran down a physically fit, 17 year old football player, and then started a fight only to get on the losing end (John Good's testimony), and then take back control of the fight (without injuring Trayvon in any way) and shoot him.
Because that sequence of events is 100% required to have occurred for Zimmerman to be guilty of what he's charged, and that, to me, is so unbelievably absurd a scenario that you might as well say that Zimmerman used his secret spiderman powers to do it. I was under the impression that he did most of his pursuing in his car, though correct me if I am wrong.
He had to get out of his car to track Trayvon for a while. According to him, he lost Trayvon after a while, and was walking back towards his car when the incident occurred. Keep in mind that this is a good distance from Trayvon's home, where Rachel testified that Trayvon told her he was.
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On July 12 2013 12:39 kmillz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 12:35 Defacer wrote:On July 12 2013 12:33 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 12 2013 12:30 kmillz wrote:On July 12 2013 12:29 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 12 2013 12:27 kmillz wrote:On July 12 2013 12:12 Kaitlin wrote:On July 12 2013 12:09 kmillz wrote:On July 12 2013 12:04 Kaitlin wrote:On July 12 2013 12:00 kmillz wrote:Not that yahoo is known for fantastic journalism, but is it true that George Zimmerman could end up with a manslaughter charge? I thought that it was all or nothing. + Show Spoiler +SANFORD, Fla. (AP) — In an unmistakable setback for George Zimmerman, the jury at the neighborhood watch captain's second-degree murder trial was given the option Thursday of convicting him on the lesser charge of manslaughter in the shooting of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.
Judge Debra Nelson issued her ruling over the objections of Zimmerman's lawyers shortly before a prosecutor delivered a closing argument in which he portrayed the defendant as an aspiring police officer who assumed Martin was up to no good and took the law into his own hands.
"A teenager is dead. He is dead through no fault of his own," prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda told the jurors. "He is dead because a man made assumptions. ... Unfortunately because his assumptions were wrong, Trayvon Benjamin Martin no longer walks this Earth."
Because of the judge's ruling, the six jurors will have three options when they start deliberations as early as Friday: guilty of second-degree murder, guilty of manslaughter and not guilty.
Zimmerman attorney Don West had argued an all-or-nothing strategy, saying the only charge that should be put before the jury is second-degree murder.
."
View gallery
George Zimmerman arrives for his trial in Seminole …
George Zimmerman arrives for his trial in Seminole circuit court in Sanford, Fla. Thursday, July 11, …
"The state has charged him with second-degree murder. They should be required to prove it," West said. "If they had wanted to charge him with manslaughter ... they could do that."
To win a second-degree murder conviction, prosecutors must prove Zimmerman showed ill will, hatred or spite — a burden the defense has argued the state failed to meet. To get a manslaughter conviction, prosecutors must show only that Zimmerman killed without lawful justification.
Allowing the jurors to consider manslaughter could give those who aren't convinced the shooting amounted to murder a way to hold Zimmerman responsible for the death of the unarmed teen, said David Hill, an Orlando defense attorney with no connection to the case.
"From the jury's point of view, if they don't like the second-degree murder — and I can see why they don't like it — he doesn't want to give them any options to convict on lesser charges," Hill said of the defense attorney.
Because of the way Florida law imposes longer sentences for crimes committed with a gun, manslaughter could end up carrying a penalty as heavy as the one for second-degree murder: life in prison.
."
View gallery
Assistant state attorney Bernie de la Rionda presents …
Assistant state attorney Bernie de la Rionda presents the state's closing arguments in George Zimmer …
It is standard for prosecutors in Florida murder cases to ask that the jury be allowed to consider lesser charges that were not actually brought against the defendant. And it is not unusual for judges to grant such requests.
Prosecutor Richard Mantei also asked that the jury be allowed to consider third-degree murder, on the premise that Zimmerman committed child abuse when he shot the underage Martin. Zimmerman's lawyer called that "bizarre" and "outrageous," and the judge sided with the defense.
Zimmerman, 29, got into a scuffle with Martin after spotting the teen while driving through his gated townhouse complex on a rainy night in February 2012. Zimmerman has claimed he fired in self-defense after Martin sucker-punched him and began slamming his head into the pavement. Prosecutors have disputed his account and portrayed him as the aggressor.
During closing arguments, de la Rionda argued that Zimmerman showed ill will and hatred when he whispered profanities to a police dispatcher over his cellphone while following Martin through the neighborhood. He said Zimmerman "profiled" the teenager as a criminal.
"He assumed Trayvon Martin was a criminal," de la Rionda said. "That is why we are here."
."
View gallery
George Zimmerman stands for instructions from Judge …
George Zimmerman stands for instructions from Judge Debra Nelson with attorney Lorna Truett, left, a …
The prosecutor told the jury that Zimmerman wanted to be a police officer and that's why he followed Martin. But "the law doesn't allow people to take the law into their own hands," de la Rionda said.
De la Rionda's two-hour presentation also included moments when he seemed to appeal to jurors' emotions by showing a head shot from Martin's autopsy and a face-up crime scene photo of Martin. Several jurors looked away.
The prosecutor also repeatedly asked why Zimmerman left his truck the night of the shooting.
"Why does this defendant get out of his car if he thought Trayvon Martin is a threat to him?" de la Rionda asked. "Why? Because he had a gun."
Later, when he straddled a foam mannequin to dispute Zimmerman's account of how the struggle unfolded, the entire back row of jurors stood. One juror even stepped down to get a better view.
."
View gallery
George Zimmerman's parents, Robert Zimmerman Sr., left, …
George Zimmerman's parents, Robert Zimmerman Sr., left, and Gladys Zimmerman sit in court for closin …
De la Rionda implored jurors to believe the account of Martin's friend Rachel Jeantel, who was on the phone with him moments before the shooting and said she heard him yelling, "Get off!" The prosecutor asked jurors to discount her "colorful language," and he put a twist on a quote by the Rev. Martin Luther King to persuade them.
"She should be judged not by the color of her personality but by the content of her testimony," de la Rionda said.
Zimmerman's lawyers are expected to deliver their closing arguments Friday morning. Decision made today to provide an instruction for manslaughter as a lesser-included offense. That's interesting, I suppose it really shouldn't change too much though because that would still mean they have to prove he wasn't acting in self-defense (legal justification) right? They just no longer have to prove he killed Trayvon out of ill-will or spite. Yeah, self-defense definitely protects against both, however there is concern over the jury "compromising" to manslaughter, which will carry quite nearly the same severe punishment as murder 2. Will they be informed that life in prison is still on the table with manslaughter before they make their decision as to whether he gets murder 2, manslaughter, or not guilty? no. thats an improper consideration. Well shit, I don't get why they didn't just try him for manslaughter in the first place given that murder 2 and manslaughter could result in the exact same punishment..and given that murder 2 is a little harder to prove. common to overcharge with the hope that the jury splits the baby (e.g., well, i dont think he is guilty of murder 2, but i will give them manslaughter). That seems ... wrong. I didn't realize trial law was like selling real estate (listing a place higher than perhaps you're willing to sell it for). I agree, on the other hand I could see how it might have the potential to backfire (similar to how pricing a house too high could deter potential buyers because it is too outrageously high). E.g. well they did a miserable job selling me on murder 2, i've already made up my mind about not guilty..
its part of the reason that the courts are so crowded with claims. although criminal overcharging is quite prevalent, its not nearly as bad as civil "kitchen sink" approach to litigation. courts continue to allow it and then bitch about how their dockets are overfilling. its their own damn fault. in this case, its the judge's own damn fault as well since she had the chance to drop it to manslaughter as well, but declined.
i dont think it will matter much in this case though since the verdict form should probably read:
1. Has the State proved beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman did not act in self defense?
__ Yes, continue on to Question 2.
__ No, you can go home.
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On July 12 2013 12:33 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 12:30 kmillz wrote:On July 12 2013 12:29 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 12 2013 12:27 kmillz wrote:On July 12 2013 12:12 Kaitlin wrote:On July 12 2013 12:09 kmillz wrote:On July 12 2013 12:04 Kaitlin wrote:On July 12 2013 12:00 kmillz wrote:Not that yahoo is known for fantastic journalism, but is it true that George Zimmerman could end up with a manslaughter charge? I thought that it was all or nothing. + Show Spoiler +SANFORD, Fla. (AP) — In an unmistakable setback for George Zimmerman, the jury at the neighborhood watch captain's second-degree murder trial was given the option Thursday of convicting him on the lesser charge of manslaughter in the shooting of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.
Judge Debra Nelson issued her ruling over the objections of Zimmerman's lawyers shortly before a prosecutor delivered a closing argument in which he portrayed the defendant as an aspiring police officer who assumed Martin was up to no good and took the law into his own hands.
"A teenager is dead. He is dead through no fault of his own," prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda told the jurors. "He is dead because a man made assumptions. ... Unfortunately because his assumptions were wrong, Trayvon Benjamin Martin no longer walks this Earth."
Because of the judge's ruling, the six jurors will have three options when they start deliberations as early as Friday: guilty of second-degree murder, guilty of manslaughter and not guilty.
Zimmerman attorney Don West had argued an all-or-nothing strategy, saying the only charge that should be put before the jury is second-degree murder.
."
View gallery
George Zimmerman arrives for his trial in Seminole …
George Zimmerman arrives for his trial in Seminole circuit court in Sanford, Fla. Thursday, July 11, …
"The state has charged him with second-degree murder. They should be required to prove it," West said. "If they had wanted to charge him with manslaughter ... they could do that."
To win a second-degree murder conviction, prosecutors must prove Zimmerman showed ill will, hatred or spite — a burden the defense has argued the state failed to meet. To get a manslaughter conviction, prosecutors must show only that Zimmerman killed without lawful justification.
Allowing the jurors to consider manslaughter could give those who aren't convinced the shooting amounted to murder a way to hold Zimmerman responsible for the death of the unarmed teen, said David Hill, an Orlando defense attorney with no connection to the case.
"From the jury's point of view, if they don't like the second-degree murder — and I can see why they don't like it — he doesn't want to give them any options to convict on lesser charges," Hill said of the defense attorney.
Because of the way Florida law imposes longer sentences for crimes committed with a gun, manslaughter could end up carrying a penalty as heavy as the one for second-degree murder: life in prison.
."
View gallery
Assistant state attorney Bernie de la Rionda presents …
Assistant state attorney Bernie de la Rionda presents the state's closing arguments in George Zimmer …
It is standard for prosecutors in Florida murder cases to ask that the jury be allowed to consider lesser charges that were not actually brought against the defendant. And it is not unusual for judges to grant such requests.
Prosecutor Richard Mantei also asked that the jury be allowed to consider third-degree murder, on the premise that Zimmerman committed child abuse when he shot the underage Martin. Zimmerman's lawyer called that "bizarre" and "outrageous," and the judge sided with the defense.
Zimmerman, 29, got into a scuffle with Martin after spotting the teen while driving through his gated townhouse complex on a rainy night in February 2012. Zimmerman has claimed he fired in self-defense after Martin sucker-punched him and began slamming his head into the pavement. Prosecutors have disputed his account and portrayed him as the aggressor.
During closing arguments, de la Rionda argued that Zimmerman showed ill will and hatred when he whispered profanities to a police dispatcher over his cellphone while following Martin through the neighborhood. He said Zimmerman "profiled" the teenager as a criminal.
"He assumed Trayvon Martin was a criminal," de la Rionda said. "That is why we are here."
."
View gallery
George Zimmerman stands for instructions from Judge …
George Zimmerman stands for instructions from Judge Debra Nelson with attorney Lorna Truett, left, a …
The prosecutor told the jury that Zimmerman wanted to be a police officer and that's why he followed Martin. But "the law doesn't allow people to take the law into their own hands," de la Rionda said.
De la Rionda's two-hour presentation also included moments when he seemed to appeal to jurors' emotions by showing a head shot from Martin's autopsy and a face-up crime scene photo of Martin. Several jurors looked away.
The prosecutor also repeatedly asked why Zimmerman left his truck the night of the shooting.
"Why does this defendant get out of his car if he thought Trayvon Martin is a threat to him?" de la Rionda asked. "Why? Because he had a gun."
Later, when he straddled a foam mannequin to dispute Zimmerman's account of how the struggle unfolded, the entire back row of jurors stood. One juror even stepped down to get a better view.
."
View gallery
George Zimmerman's parents, Robert Zimmerman Sr., left, …
George Zimmerman's parents, Robert Zimmerman Sr., left, and Gladys Zimmerman sit in court for closin …
De la Rionda implored jurors to believe the account of Martin's friend Rachel Jeantel, who was on the phone with him moments before the shooting and said she heard him yelling, "Get off!" The prosecutor asked jurors to discount her "colorful language," and he put a twist on a quote by the Rev. Martin Luther King to persuade them.
"She should be judged not by the color of her personality but by the content of her testimony," de la Rionda said.
Zimmerman's lawyers are expected to deliver their closing arguments Friday morning. Decision made today to provide an instruction for manslaughter as a lesser-included offense. That's interesting, I suppose it really shouldn't change too much though because that would still mean they have to prove he wasn't acting in self-defense (legal justification) right? They just no longer have to prove he killed Trayvon out of ill-will or spite. Yeah, self-defense definitely protects against both, however there is concern over the jury "compromising" to manslaughter, which will carry quite nearly the same severe punishment as murder 2. Will they be informed that life in prison is still on the table with manslaughter before they make their decision as to whether he gets murder 2, manslaughter, or not guilty? no. thats an improper consideration. Well shit, I don't get why they didn't just try him for manslaughter in the first place given that murder 2 and manslaughter could result in the exact same punishment..and given that murder 2 is a little harder to prove. common to overcharge with the hope that the jury splits the baby (e.g., well, i dont think he is guilty of murder 2, but i will give them manslaughter).
Doesn't it allow more room for them to plead down with as well?
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On July 12 2013 12:43 Tewks44 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 12:33 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 12 2013 12:30 kmillz wrote:On July 12 2013 12:29 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 12 2013 12:27 kmillz wrote:On July 12 2013 12:12 Kaitlin wrote:On July 12 2013 12:09 kmillz wrote:On July 12 2013 12:04 Kaitlin wrote:On July 12 2013 12:00 kmillz wrote:Not that yahoo is known for fantastic journalism, but is it true that George Zimmerman could end up with a manslaughter charge? I thought that it was all or nothing. + Show Spoiler +SANFORD, Fla. (AP) — In an unmistakable setback for George Zimmerman, the jury at the neighborhood watch captain's second-degree murder trial was given the option Thursday of convicting him on the lesser charge of manslaughter in the shooting of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.
Judge Debra Nelson issued her ruling over the objections of Zimmerman's lawyers shortly before a prosecutor delivered a closing argument in which he portrayed the defendant as an aspiring police officer who assumed Martin was up to no good and took the law into his own hands.
"A teenager is dead. He is dead through no fault of his own," prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda told the jurors. "He is dead because a man made assumptions. ... Unfortunately because his assumptions were wrong, Trayvon Benjamin Martin no longer walks this Earth."
Because of the judge's ruling, the six jurors will have three options when they start deliberations as early as Friday: guilty of second-degree murder, guilty of manslaughter and not guilty.
Zimmerman attorney Don West had argued an all-or-nothing strategy, saying the only charge that should be put before the jury is second-degree murder.
."
View gallery
George Zimmerman arrives for his trial in Seminole …
George Zimmerman arrives for his trial in Seminole circuit court in Sanford, Fla. Thursday, July 11, …
"The state has charged him with second-degree murder. They should be required to prove it," West said. "If they had wanted to charge him with manslaughter ... they could do that."
To win a second-degree murder conviction, prosecutors must prove Zimmerman showed ill will, hatred or spite — a burden the defense has argued the state failed to meet. To get a manslaughter conviction, prosecutors must show only that Zimmerman killed without lawful justification.
Allowing the jurors to consider manslaughter could give those who aren't convinced the shooting amounted to murder a way to hold Zimmerman responsible for the death of the unarmed teen, said David Hill, an Orlando defense attorney with no connection to the case.
"From the jury's point of view, if they don't like the second-degree murder — and I can see why they don't like it — he doesn't want to give them any options to convict on lesser charges," Hill said of the defense attorney.
Because of the way Florida law imposes longer sentences for crimes committed with a gun, manslaughter could end up carrying a penalty as heavy as the one for second-degree murder: life in prison.
."
View gallery
Assistant state attorney Bernie de la Rionda presents …
Assistant state attorney Bernie de la Rionda presents the state's closing arguments in George Zimmer …
It is standard for prosecutors in Florida murder cases to ask that the jury be allowed to consider lesser charges that were not actually brought against the defendant. And it is not unusual for judges to grant such requests.
Prosecutor Richard Mantei also asked that the jury be allowed to consider third-degree murder, on the premise that Zimmerman committed child abuse when he shot the underage Martin. Zimmerman's lawyer called that "bizarre" and "outrageous," and the judge sided with the defense.
Zimmerman, 29, got into a scuffle with Martin after spotting the teen while driving through his gated townhouse complex on a rainy night in February 2012. Zimmerman has claimed he fired in self-defense after Martin sucker-punched him and began slamming his head into the pavement. Prosecutors have disputed his account and portrayed him as the aggressor.
During closing arguments, de la Rionda argued that Zimmerman showed ill will and hatred when he whispered profanities to a police dispatcher over his cellphone while following Martin through the neighborhood. He said Zimmerman "profiled" the teenager as a criminal.
"He assumed Trayvon Martin was a criminal," de la Rionda said. "That is why we are here."
."
View gallery
George Zimmerman stands for instructions from Judge …
George Zimmerman stands for instructions from Judge Debra Nelson with attorney Lorna Truett, left, a …
The prosecutor told the jury that Zimmerman wanted to be a police officer and that's why he followed Martin. But "the law doesn't allow people to take the law into their own hands," de la Rionda said.
De la Rionda's two-hour presentation also included moments when he seemed to appeal to jurors' emotions by showing a head shot from Martin's autopsy and a face-up crime scene photo of Martin. Several jurors looked away.
The prosecutor also repeatedly asked why Zimmerman left his truck the night of the shooting.
"Why does this defendant get out of his car if he thought Trayvon Martin is a threat to him?" de la Rionda asked. "Why? Because he had a gun."
Later, when he straddled a foam mannequin to dispute Zimmerman's account of how the struggle unfolded, the entire back row of jurors stood. One juror even stepped down to get a better view.
."
View gallery
George Zimmerman's parents, Robert Zimmerman Sr., left, …
George Zimmerman's parents, Robert Zimmerman Sr., left, and Gladys Zimmerman sit in court for closin …
De la Rionda implored jurors to believe the account of Martin's friend Rachel Jeantel, who was on the phone with him moments before the shooting and said she heard him yelling, "Get off!" The prosecutor asked jurors to discount her "colorful language," and he put a twist on a quote by the Rev. Martin Luther King to persuade them.
"She should be judged not by the color of her personality but by the content of her testimony," de la Rionda said.
Zimmerman's lawyers are expected to deliver their closing arguments Friday morning. Decision made today to provide an instruction for manslaughter as a lesser-included offense. That's interesting, I suppose it really shouldn't change too much though because that would still mean they have to prove he wasn't acting in self-defense (legal justification) right? They just no longer have to prove he killed Trayvon out of ill-will or spite. Yeah, self-defense definitely protects against both, however there is concern over the jury "compromising" to manslaughter, which will carry quite nearly the same severe punishment as murder 2. Will they be informed that life in prison is still on the table with manslaughter before they make their decision as to whether he gets murder 2, manslaughter, or not guilty? no. thats an improper consideration. Well shit, I don't get why they didn't just try him for manslaughter in the first place given that murder 2 and manslaughter could result in the exact same punishment..and given that murder 2 is a little harder to prove. common to overcharge with the hope that the jury splits the baby (e.g., well, i dont think he is guilty of murder 2, but i will give them manslaughter). So do you think the prosecution had this whole slapping on manslaughter at the end of the trial stunt planned from the beginning?
its a lesser included offense so i dont think anyone was surprised. murder 3 is a different story. i didnt watch, but from what i hear thats just retarded (jeantel voice).
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On July 12 2013 12:48 FatChicksUnited wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 12:33 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 12 2013 12:30 kmillz wrote:On July 12 2013 12:29 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 12 2013 12:27 kmillz wrote:On July 12 2013 12:12 Kaitlin wrote:On July 12 2013 12:09 kmillz wrote:On July 12 2013 12:04 Kaitlin wrote:On July 12 2013 12:00 kmillz wrote:Not that yahoo is known for fantastic journalism, but is it true that George Zimmerman could end up with a manslaughter charge? I thought that it was all or nothing. + Show Spoiler +SANFORD, Fla. (AP) — In an unmistakable setback for George Zimmerman, the jury at the neighborhood watch captain's second-degree murder trial was given the option Thursday of convicting him on the lesser charge of manslaughter in the shooting of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.
Judge Debra Nelson issued her ruling over the objections of Zimmerman's lawyers shortly before a prosecutor delivered a closing argument in which he portrayed the defendant as an aspiring police officer who assumed Martin was up to no good and took the law into his own hands.
"A teenager is dead. He is dead through no fault of his own," prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda told the jurors. "He is dead because a man made assumptions. ... Unfortunately because his assumptions were wrong, Trayvon Benjamin Martin no longer walks this Earth."
Because of the judge's ruling, the six jurors will have three options when they start deliberations as early as Friday: guilty of second-degree murder, guilty of manslaughter and not guilty.
Zimmerman attorney Don West had argued an all-or-nothing strategy, saying the only charge that should be put before the jury is second-degree murder.
."
View gallery
George Zimmerman arrives for his trial in Seminole …
George Zimmerman arrives for his trial in Seminole circuit court in Sanford, Fla. Thursday, July 11, …
"The state has charged him with second-degree murder. They should be required to prove it," West said. "If they had wanted to charge him with manslaughter ... they could do that."
To win a second-degree murder conviction, prosecutors must prove Zimmerman showed ill will, hatred or spite — a burden the defense has argued the state failed to meet. To get a manslaughter conviction, prosecutors must show only that Zimmerman killed without lawful justification.
Allowing the jurors to consider manslaughter could give those who aren't convinced the shooting amounted to murder a way to hold Zimmerman responsible for the death of the unarmed teen, said David Hill, an Orlando defense attorney with no connection to the case.
"From the jury's point of view, if they don't like the second-degree murder — and I can see why they don't like it — he doesn't want to give them any options to convict on lesser charges," Hill said of the defense attorney.
Because of the way Florida law imposes longer sentences for crimes committed with a gun, manslaughter could end up carrying a penalty as heavy as the one for second-degree murder: life in prison.
."
View gallery
Assistant state attorney Bernie de la Rionda presents …
Assistant state attorney Bernie de la Rionda presents the state's closing arguments in George Zimmer …
It is standard for prosecutors in Florida murder cases to ask that the jury be allowed to consider lesser charges that were not actually brought against the defendant. And it is not unusual for judges to grant such requests.
Prosecutor Richard Mantei also asked that the jury be allowed to consider third-degree murder, on the premise that Zimmerman committed child abuse when he shot the underage Martin. Zimmerman's lawyer called that "bizarre" and "outrageous," and the judge sided with the defense.
Zimmerman, 29, got into a scuffle with Martin after spotting the teen while driving through his gated townhouse complex on a rainy night in February 2012. Zimmerman has claimed he fired in self-defense after Martin sucker-punched him and began slamming his head into the pavement. Prosecutors have disputed his account and portrayed him as the aggressor.
During closing arguments, de la Rionda argued that Zimmerman showed ill will and hatred when he whispered profanities to a police dispatcher over his cellphone while following Martin through the neighborhood. He said Zimmerman "profiled" the teenager as a criminal.
"He assumed Trayvon Martin was a criminal," de la Rionda said. "That is why we are here."
."
View gallery
George Zimmerman stands for instructions from Judge …
George Zimmerman stands for instructions from Judge Debra Nelson with attorney Lorna Truett, left, a …
The prosecutor told the jury that Zimmerman wanted to be a police officer and that's why he followed Martin. But "the law doesn't allow people to take the law into their own hands," de la Rionda said.
De la Rionda's two-hour presentation also included moments when he seemed to appeal to jurors' emotions by showing a head shot from Martin's autopsy and a face-up crime scene photo of Martin. Several jurors looked away.
The prosecutor also repeatedly asked why Zimmerman left his truck the night of the shooting.
"Why does this defendant get out of his car if he thought Trayvon Martin is a threat to him?" de la Rionda asked. "Why? Because he had a gun."
Later, when he straddled a foam mannequin to dispute Zimmerman's account of how the struggle unfolded, the entire back row of jurors stood. One juror even stepped down to get a better view.
."
View gallery
George Zimmerman's parents, Robert Zimmerman Sr., left, …
George Zimmerman's parents, Robert Zimmerman Sr., left, and Gladys Zimmerman sit in court for closin …
De la Rionda implored jurors to believe the account of Martin's friend Rachel Jeantel, who was on the phone with him moments before the shooting and said she heard him yelling, "Get off!" The prosecutor asked jurors to discount her "colorful language," and he put a twist on a quote by the Rev. Martin Luther King to persuade them.
"She should be judged not by the color of her personality but by the content of her testimony," de la Rionda said.
Zimmerman's lawyers are expected to deliver their closing arguments Friday morning. Decision made today to provide an instruction for manslaughter as a lesser-included offense. That's interesting, I suppose it really shouldn't change too much though because that would still mean they have to prove he wasn't acting in self-defense (legal justification) right? They just no longer have to prove he killed Trayvon out of ill-will or spite. Yeah, self-defense definitely protects against both, however there is concern over the jury "compromising" to manslaughter, which will carry quite nearly the same severe punishment as murder 2. Will they be informed that life in prison is still on the table with manslaughter before they make their decision as to whether he gets murder 2, manslaughter, or not guilty? no. thats an improper consideration. Well shit, I don't get why they didn't just try him for manslaughter in the first place given that murder 2 and manslaughter could result in the exact same punishment..and given that murder 2 is a little harder to prove. common to overcharge with the hope that the jury splits the baby (e.g., well, i dont think he is guilty of murder 2, but i will give them manslaughter). Doesn't it allow more room for them to plead down with as well?
correct. thats the primary purpose for overcharging although not the sole reason.
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On July 12 2013 11:19 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 11:16 zlefin wrote:
Perhaps it should be a group separate from the jury. But i'd like SOME group to be in charge of just assessing the situation, figuring out what happened, and making recommendations. Trial jury's dont' decide what actually happened, they decide guilty or not guilty, and some findings of fact, but not too many, and not nearly as much analysis about what happened and what could be done; and the evidentiary rules are different.
What I want is a more thorough incident report and analysis. Similar to, but on a far smaller scale of course, than the 9/11 commission report. You mean something along the lines of the police investigation that happened?
seeing as that's NOTHING like what I described, no. Please try learning more about commissions and reports, and see the things I actually referenced before referring to something that is obviously very different.
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On July 12 2013 12:49 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 12:48 FatChicksUnited wrote:On July 12 2013 12:33 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 12 2013 12:30 kmillz wrote:On July 12 2013 12:29 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 12 2013 12:27 kmillz wrote:On July 12 2013 12:12 Kaitlin wrote:On July 12 2013 12:09 kmillz wrote:On July 12 2013 12:04 Kaitlin wrote:On July 12 2013 12:00 kmillz wrote:Not that yahoo is known for fantastic journalism, but is it true that George Zimmerman could end up with a manslaughter charge? I thought that it was all or nothing. + Show Spoiler +SANFORD, Fla. (AP) — In an unmistakable setback for George Zimmerman, the jury at the neighborhood watch captain's second-degree murder trial was given the option Thursday of convicting him on the lesser charge of manslaughter in the shooting of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.
Judge Debra Nelson issued her ruling over the objections of Zimmerman's lawyers shortly before a prosecutor delivered a closing argument in which he portrayed the defendant as an aspiring police officer who assumed Martin was up to no good and took the law into his own hands.
"A teenager is dead. He is dead through no fault of his own," prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda told the jurors. "He is dead because a man made assumptions. ... Unfortunately because his assumptions were wrong, Trayvon Benjamin Martin no longer walks this Earth."
Because of the judge's ruling, the six jurors will have three options when they start deliberations as early as Friday: guilty of second-degree murder, guilty of manslaughter and not guilty.
Zimmerman attorney Don West had argued an all-or-nothing strategy, saying the only charge that should be put before the jury is second-degree murder.
."
View gallery
George Zimmerman arrives for his trial in Seminole …
George Zimmerman arrives for his trial in Seminole circuit court in Sanford, Fla. Thursday, July 11, …
"The state has charged him with second-degree murder. They should be required to prove it," West said. "If they had wanted to charge him with manslaughter ... they could do that."
To win a second-degree murder conviction, prosecutors must prove Zimmerman showed ill will, hatred or spite — a burden the defense has argued the state failed to meet. To get a manslaughter conviction, prosecutors must show only that Zimmerman killed without lawful justification.
Allowing the jurors to consider manslaughter could give those who aren't convinced the shooting amounted to murder a way to hold Zimmerman responsible for the death of the unarmed teen, said David Hill, an Orlando defense attorney with no connection to the case.
"From the jury's point of view, if they don't like the second-degree murder — and I can see why they don't like it — he doesn't want to give them any options to convict on lesser charges," Hill said of the defense attorney.
Because of the way Florida law imposes longer sentences for crimes committed with a gun, manslaughter could end up carrying a penalty as heavy as the one for second-degree murder: life in prison.
."
View gallery
Assistant state attorney Bernie de la Rionda presents …
Assistant state attorney Bernie de la Rionda presents the state's closing arguments in George Zimmer …
It is standard for prosecutors in Florida murder cases to ask that the jury be allowed to consider lesser charges that were not actually brought against the defendant. And it is not unusual for judges to grant such requests.
Prosecutor Richard Mantei also asked that the jury be allowed to consider third-degree murder, on the premise that Zimmerman committed child abuse when he shot the underage Martin. Zimmerman's lawyer called that "bizarre" and "outrageous," and the judge sided with the defense.
Zimmerman, 29, got into a scuffle with Martin after spotting the teen while driving through his gated townhouse complex on a rainy night in February 2012. Zimmerman has claimed he fired in self-defense after Martin sucker-punched him and began slamming his head into the pavement. Prosecutors have disputed his account and portrayed him as the aggressor.
During closing arguments, de la Rionda argued that Zimmerman showed ill will and hatred when he whispered profanities to a police dispatcher over his cellphone while following Martin through the neighborhood. He said Zimmerman "profiled" the teenager as a criminal.
"He assumed Trayvon Martin was a criminal," de la Rionda said. "That is why we are here."
."
View gallery
George Zimmerman stands for instructions from Judge …
George Zimmerman stands for instructions from Judge Debra Nelson with attorney Lorna Truett, left, a …
The prosecutor told the jury that Zimmerman wanted to be a police officer and that's why he followed Martin. But "the law doesn't allow people to take the law into their own hands," de la Rionda said.
De la Rionda's two-hour presentation also included moments when he seemed to appeal to jurors' emotions by showing a head shot from Martin's autopsy and a face-up crime scene photo of Martin. Several jurors looked away.
The prosecutor also repeatedly asked why Zimmerman left his truck the night of the shooting.
"Why does this defendant get out of his car if he thought Trayvon Martin is a threat to him?" de la Rionda asked. "Why? Because he had a gun."
Later, when he straddled a foam mannequin to dispute Zimmerman's account of how the struggle unfolded, the entire back row of jurors stood. One juror even stepped down to get a better view.
."
View gallery
George Zimmerman's parents, Robert Zimmerman Sr., left, …
George Zimmerman's parents, Robert Zimmerman Sr., left, and Gladys Zimmerman sit in court for closin …
De la Rionda implored jurors to believe the account of Martin's friend Rachel Jeantel, who was on the phone with him moments before the shooting and said she heard him yelling, "Get off!" The prosecutor asked jurors to discount her "colorful language," and he put a twist on a quote by the Rev. Martin Luther King to persuade them.
"She should be judged not by the color of her personality but by the content of her testimony," de la Rionda said.
Zimmerman's lawyers are expected to deliver their closing arguments Friday morning. Decision made today to provide an instruction for manslaughter as a lesser-included offense. That's interesting, I suppose it really shouldn't change too much though because that would still mean they have to prove he wasn't acting in self-defense (legal justification) right? They just no longer have to prove he killed Trayvon out of ill-will or spite. Yeah, self-defense definitely protects against both, however there is concern over the jury "compromising" to manslaughter, which will carry quite nearly the same severe punishment as murder 2. Will they be informed that life in prison is still on the table with manslaughter before they make their decision as to whether he gets murder 2, manslaughter, or not guilty? no. thats an improper consideration. Well shit, I don't get why they didn't just try him for manslaughter in the first place given that murder 2 and manslaughter could result in the exact same punishment..and given that murder 2 is a little harder to prove. common to overcharge with the hope that the jury splits the baby (e.g., well, i dont think he is guilty of murder 2, but i will give them manslaughter). Doesn't it allow more room for them to plead down with as well? correct. thats the primary purpose for overcharging although not the sole reason.
But with plea bargains, they can agree to whatever charge they want, they aren't limited to lesser-includes, correct ?
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On July 12 2013 12:58 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 11:19 LegalLord wrote:On July 12 2013 11:16 zlefin wrote:
Perhaps it should be a group separate from the jury. But i'd like SOME group to be in charge of just assessing the situation, figuring out what happened, and making recommendations. Trial jury's dont' decide what actually happened, they decide guilty or not guilty, and some findings of fact, but not too many, and not nearly as much analysis about what happened and what could be done; and the evidentiary rules are different.
What I want is a more thorough incident report and analysis. Similar to, but on a far smaller scale of course, than the 9/11 commission report. You mean something along the lines of the police investigation that happened? seeing as that's NOTHING like what I described, no. Please try learning more about commissions and reports, and see the things I actually referenced before referring to something that is obviously very different.
The problem with your idea is that you have no consideration for the concept of limited resources.
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On July 12 2013 12:59 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 12:49 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 12 2013 12:48 FatChicksUnited wrote:On July 12 2013 12:33 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 12 2013 12:30 kmillz wrote:On July 12 2013 12:29 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 12 2013 12:27 kmillz wrote:On July 12 2013 12:12 Kaitlin wrote:On July 12 2013 12:09 kmillz wrote:On July 12 2013 12:04 Kaitlin wrote:
[quote]
Decision made today to provide an instruction for manslaughter as a lesser-included offense. That's interesting, I suppose it really shouldn't change too much though because that would still mean they have to prove he wasn't acting in self-defense (legal justification) right? They just no longer have to prove he killed Trayvon out of ill-will or spite. Yeah, self-defense definitely protects against both, however there is concern over the jury "compromising" to manslaughter, which will carry quite nearly the same severe punishment as murder 2. Will they be informed that life in prison is still on the table with manslaughter before they make their decision as to whether he gets murder 2, manslaughter, or not guilty? no. thats an improper consideration. Well shit, I don't get why they didn't just try him for manslaughter in the first place given that murder 2 and manslaughter could result in the exact same punishment..and given that murder 2 is a little harder to prove. common to overcharge with the hope that the jury splits the baby (e.g., well, i dont think he is guilty of murder 2, but i will give them manslaughter). Doesn't it allow more room for them to plead down with as well? correct. thats the primary purpose for overcharging although not the sole reason. But with plea bargains, they can agree to whatever charge they want, they aren't limited to lesser-includes, correct ?
not sure exactly what you mean. if you're charged with murder, they arent going to plea you out on a DUI. its going to be a related crime, just a less severe punishment. for example, a DUI could be pled out as a wet reckless (reckless driving with alcohol in system). a murder charge could be pled out as battery.
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On July 12 2013 13:00 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 12:58 zlefin wrote:On July 12 2013 11:19 LegalLord wrote:On July 12 2013 11:16 zlefin wrote:
Perhaps it should be a group separate from the jury. But i'd like SOME group to be in charge of just assessing the situation, figuring out what happened, and making recommendations. Trial jury's dont' decide what actually happened, they decide guilty or not guilty, and some findings of fact, but not too many, and not nearly as much analysis about what happened and what could be done; and the evidentiary rules are different.
What I want is a more thorough incident report and analysis. Similar to, but on a far smaller scale of course, than the 9/11 commission report. You mean something along the lines of the police investigation that happened? seeing as that's NOTHING like what I described, no. Please try learning more about commissions and reports, and see the things I actually referenced before referring to something that is obviously very different. The problem with your idea is that you have no consideration for the concept of limited resources.
Im confused, he wants a separate group to be put together to find the "truth" and the jury to figure out if the party is guilty. If you get the "truth", why do you need a jury?
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On July 12 2013 12:58 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 11:19 LegalLord wrote:On July 12 2013 11:16 zlefin wrote:
Perhaps it should be a group separate from the jury. But i'd like SOME group to be in charge of just assessing the situation, figuring out what happened, and making recommendations. Trial jury's dont' decide what actually happened, they decide guilty or not guilty, and some findings of fact, but not too many, and not nearly as much analysis about what happened and what could be done; and the evidentiary rules are different.
What I want is a more thorough incident report and analysis. Similar to, but on a far smaller scale of course, than the 9/11 commission report. You mean something along the lines of the police investigation that happened? seeing as that's NOTHING like what I described, no. Please try learning more about commissions and reports, and see the things I actually referenced before referring to something that is obviously very different.
Are you secretly hoping that a special Trayvon commission, with relaxed evidentiary rules, would find Zimmerman culpable for Trayvon's death? Because if you've been paying attention at all, the exact opposite would happen.
The amount of character evidence and self-defense-related expert testimony in favor of Zimmerman that has been disallowed at this trial is fairly staggering. This includes evidence of Trayvon's "immaturity", including school records, social networking, photos, and text messages related to drugs, fighting, possession of burglary tools, possession of stolen goods, and assaulting a bus driver.
This also includes expert testimony from various self-defense and law enforcement experts testifying that Zimmerman was justified in using his firearm when he did.
I'm not sure how handing this investigation over to a special commission would yield any different result, unless you put a few "community organizers" in charge of it.
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On July 12 2013 13:05 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 13:00 Kaitlin wrote:On July 12 2013 12:58 zlefin wrote:On July 12 2013 11:19 LegalLord wrote:On July 12 2013 11:16 zlefin wrote:
Perhaps it should be a group separate from the jury. But i'd like SOME group to be in charge of just assessing the situation, figuring out what happened, and making recommendations. Trial jury's dont' decide what actually happened, they decide guilty or not guilty, and some findings of fact, but not too many, and not nearly as much analysis about what happened and what could be done; and the evidentiary rules are different.
What I want is a more thorough incident report and analysis. Similar to, but on a far smaller scale of course, than the 9/11 commission report. You mean something along the lines of the police investigation that happened? seeing as that's NOTHING like what I described, no. Please try learning more about commissions and reports, and see the things I actually referenced before referring to something that is obviously very different. The problem with your idea is that you have no consideration for the concept of limited resources. Im confused, he wants a separate group to be put together to find the "truth" and the jury to figure out if the party is guilty. If you get the "truth", why do you need a jury?
I think he wants a commission to investigate the investigation resulting in a report to determine the facts of what happened to be submitted to a court where it is tried before a jury for them to determine if the report resulting from the commissions' investigation of the investigation is accurate beyond a reasonable doubt. I'm not sure what his suggestion will be for the subsequent pre-sentencing investigation.
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On July 12 2013 13:14 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 13:05 Plansix wrote:On July 12 2013 13:00 Kaitlin wrote:On July 12 2013 12:58 zlefin wrote:On July 12 2013 11:19 LegalLord wrote:On July 12 2013 11:16 zlefin wrote:
Perhaps it should be a group separate from the jury. But i'd like SOME group to be in charge of just assessing the situation, figuring out what happened, and making recommendations. Trial jury's dont' decide what actually happened, they decide guilty or not guilty, and some findings of fact, but not too many, and not nearly as much analysis about what happened and what could be done; and the evidentiary rules are different.
What I want is a more thorough incident report and analysis. Similar to, but on a far smaller scale of course, than the 9/11 commission report. You mean something along the lines of the police investigation that happened? seeing as that's NOTHING like what I described, no. Please try learning more about commissions and reports, and see the things I actually referenced before referring to something that is obviously very different. The problem with your idea is that you have no consideration for the concept of limited resources. Im confused, he wants a separate group to be put together to find the "truth" and the jury to figure out if the party is guilty. If you get the "truth", why do you need a jury? I think he wants a commission to investigate the investigation resulting in a report to determine the facts of what happened to be submitted to a court where it is tried before a jury for them to determine if the report resulting from the commissions' investigation of the investigation is accurate beyond a reasonable doubt. I'm not sure what his suggestion will be for the subsequent pre-sentencing investigation.
Why didn't he just say so? Let's do it.
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EPT
