On July 12 2013 11:56 sc2superfan101 wrote: I want anyone to give me a scenario in which it is at all possible, given the evidence we've now seen, that Zimmerman somehow ran down a physically fit, 17 year old football player, and then started a fight only to get on the losing end (John Good's testimony), and then take back control of the fight (without injuring Trayvon in any way) and shoot him.
Because that sequence of events is 100% required to have occurred for Zimmerman to be guilty of what he's charged, and that, to me, is so unbelievably absurd a scenario that you might as well say that Zimmerman used his secret spiderman powers to do it.
he can still get manslaughter without needing to meet all your strict requirements
Well, since his fact pattern pretty much described a scenario to defeat self-defense within the constraints of the evidence, it would also be required for manslaughter. Given that there was no "ill will" type evidence in his scenario, I'm not sure why you would assume it was about Murder 2 and not manslaughter itself.
On July 12 2013 12:00 kmillz wrote: Not that yahoo is known for fantastic journalism, but is it true that George Zimmerman could end up with a manslaughter charge? I thought that it was all or nothing.
SANFORD, Fla. (AP) — In an unmistakable setback for George Zimmerman, the jury at the neighborhood watch captain's second-degree murder trial was given the option Thursday of convicting him on the lesser charge of manslaughter in the shooting of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.
Judge Debra Nelson issued her ruling over the objections of Zimmerman's lawyers shortly before a prosecutor delivered a closing argument in which he portrayed the defendant as an aspiring police officer who assumed Martin was up to no good and took the law into his own hands.
"A teenager is dead. He is dead through no fault of his own," prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda told the jurors. "He is dead because a man made assumptions. ... Unfortunately because his assumptions were wrong, Trayvon Benjamin Martin no longer walks this Earth."
Because of the judge's ruling, the six jurors will have three options when they start deliberations as early as Friday: guilty of second-degree murder, guilty of manslaughter and not guilty.
Zimmerman attorney Don West had argued an all-or-nothing strategy, saying the only charge that should be put before the jury is second-degree murder. ."
View gallery George Zimmerman arrives for his trial in Seminole … George Zimmerman arrives for his trial in Seminole circuit court in Sanford, Fla. Thursday, July 11, …
"The state has charged him with second-degree murder. They should be required to prove it," West said. "If they had wanted to charge him with manslaughter ... they could do that."
To win a second-degree murder conviction, prosecutors must prove Zimmerman showed ill will, hatred or spite — a burden the defense has argued the state failed to meet. To get a manslaughter conviction, prosecutors must show only that Zimmerman killed without lawful justification.
Allowing the jurors to consider manslaughter could give those who aren't convinced the shooting amounted to murder a way to hold Zimmerman responsible for the death of the unarmed teen, said David Hill, an Orlando defense attorney with no connection to the case.
"From the jury's point of view, if they don't like the second-degree murder — and I can see why they don't like it — he doesn't want to give them any options to convict on lesser charges," Hill said of the defense attorney.
Because of the way Florida law imposes longer sentences for crimes committed with a gun, manslaughter could end up carrying a penalty as heavy as the one for second-degree murder: life in prison. ."
View gallery Assistant state attorney Bernie de la Rionda presents … Assistant state attorney Bernie de la Rionda presents the state's closing arguments in George Zimmer …
It is standard for prosecutors in Florida murder cases to ask that the jury be allowed to consider lesser charges that were not actually brought against the defendant. And it is not unusual for judges to grant such requests.
Prosecutor Richard Mantei also asked that the jury be allowed to consider third-degree murder, on the premise that Zimmerman committed child abuse when he shot the underage Martin. Zimmerman's lawyer called that "bizarre" and "outrageous," and the judge sided with the defense.
Zimmerman, 29, got into a scuffle with Martin after spotting the teen while driving through his gated townhouse complex on a rainy night in February 2012. Zimmerman has claimed he fired in self-defense after Martin sucker-punched him and began slamming his head into the pavement. Prosecutors have disputed his account and portrayed him as the aggressor.
During closing arguments, de la Rionda argued that Zimmerman showed ill will and hatred when he whispered profanities to a police dispatcher over his cellphone while following Martin through the neighborhood. He said Zimmerman "profiled" the teenager as a criminal.
"He assumed Trayvon Martin was a criminal," de la Rionda said. "That is why we are here." ."
View gallery George Zimmerman stands for instructions from Judge … George Zimmerman stands for instructions from Judge Debra Nelson with attorney Lorna Truett, left, a …
The prosecutor told the jury that Zimmerman wanted to be a police officer and that's why he followed Martin. But "the law doesn't allow people to take the law into their own hands," de la Rionda said.
De la Rionda's two-hour presentation also included moments when he seemed to appeal to jurors' emotions by showing a head shot from Martin's autopsy and a face-up crime scene photo of Martin. Several jurors looked away.
The prosecutor also repeatedly asked why Zimmerman left his truck the night of the shooting.
"Why does this defendant get out of his car if he thought Trayvon Martin is a threat to him?" de la Rionda asked. "Why? Because he had a gun."
Later, when he straddled a foam mannequin to dispute Zimmerman's account of how the struggle unfolded, the entire back row of jurors stood. One juror even stepped down to get a better view. ."
View gallery George Zimmerman's parents, Robert Zimmerman Sr., left, … George Zimmerman's parents, Robert Zimmerman Sr., left, and Gladys Zimmerman sit in court for closin …
De la Rionda implored jurors to believe the account of Martin's friend Rachel Jeantel, who was on the phone with him moments before the shooting and said she heard him yelling, "Get off!" The prosecutor asked jurors to discount her "colorful language," and he put a twist on a quote by the Rev. Martin Luther King to persuade them.
"She should be judged not by the color of her personality but by the content of her testimony," de la Rionda said.
Zimmerman's lawyers are expected to deliver their closing arguments Friday morning.
On July 12 2013 11:16 zlefin wrote: Perhaps it should be a group separate from the jury. But i'd like SOME group to be in charge of just assessing the situation, figuring out what happened, and making recommendations. Trial jury's dont' decide what actually happened, they decide guilty or not guilty, and some findings of fact, but not too many, and not nearly as much analysis about what happened and what could be done; and the evidentiary rules are different.
What I want is a more thorough incident report and analysis. Similar to, but on a far smaller scale of course, than the 9/11 commission report.
poor sanford cant afford that. poor florida cant afford that. not really necessary. plus, it will be so highly criticized that nobody would even believe it.
On July 12 2013 11:56 sc2superfan101 wrote: I want anyone to give me a scenario in which it is at all possible, given the evidence we've now seen, that Zimmerman somehow ran down a physically fit, 17 year old football player, and then started a fight only to get on the losing end (John Good's testimony), and then take back control of the fight (without injuring Trayvon in any way) and shoot him.
Because that sequence of events is 100% required to have occurred for Zimmerman to be guilty of what he's charged, and that, to me, is so unbelievably absurd a scenario that you might as well say that Zimmerman used his secret spiderman powers to do it.
he can still get manslaughter without needing to meet all your strict requirements
On July 12 2013 12:00 kmillz wrote: Not that yahoo is known for fantastic journalism, but is it true that George Zimmerman could end up with a manslaughter charge? I thought that it was all or nothing.
SANFORD, Fla. (AP) — In an unmistakable setback for George Zimmerman, the jury at the neighborhood watch captain's second-degree murder trial was given the option Thursday of convicting him on the lesser charge of manslaughter in the shooting of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.
Judge Debra Nelson issued her ruling over the objections of Zimmerman's lawyers shortly before a prosecutor delivered a closing argument in which he portrayed the defendant as an aspiring police officer who assumed Martin was up to no good and took the law into his own hands.
"A teenager is dead. He is dead through no fault of his own," prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda told the jurors. "He is dead because a man made assumptions. ... Unfortunately because his assumptions were wrong, Trayvon Benjamin Martin no longer walks this Earth."
Because of the judge's ruling, the six jurors will have three options when they start deliberations as early as Friday: guilty of second-degree murder, guilty of manslaughter and not guilty.
Zimmerman attorney Don West had argued an all-or-nothing strategy, saying the only charge that should be put before the jury is second-degree murder. ."
View gallery George Zimmerman arrives for his trial in Seminole … George Zimmerman arrives for his trial in Seminole circuit court in Sanford, Fla. Thursday, July 11, …
"The state has charged him with second-degree murder. They should be required to prove it," West said. "If they had wanted to charge him with manslaughter ... they could do that."
To win a second-degree murder conviction, prosecutors must prove Zimmerman showed ill will, hatred or spite — a burden the defense has argued the state failed to meet. To get a manslaughter conviction, prosecutors must show only that Zimmerman killed without lawful justification.
Allowing the jurors to consider manslaughter could give those who aren't convinced the shooting amounted to murder a way to hold Zimmerman responsible for the death of the unarmed teen, said David Hill, an Orlando defense attorney with no connection to the case.
"From the jury's point of view, if they don't like the second-degree murder — and I can see why they don't like it — he doesn't want to give them any options to convict on lesser charges," Hill said of the defense attorney.
Because of the way Florida law imposes longer sentences for crimes committed with a gun, manslaughter could end up carrying a penalty as heavy as the one for second-degree murder: life in prison. ."
View gallery Assistant state attorney Bernie de la Rionda presents … Assistant state attorney Bernie de la Rionda presents the state's closing arguments in George Zimmer …
It is standard for prosecutors in Florida murder cases to ask that the jury be allowed to consider lesser charges that were not actually brought against the defendant. And it is not unusual for judges to grant such requests.
Prosecutor Richard Mantei also asked that the jury be allowed to consider third-degree murder, on the premise that Zimmerman committed child abuse when he shot the underage Martin. Zimmerman's lawyer called that "bizarre" and "outrageous," and the judge sided with the defense.
Zimmerman, 29, got into a scuffle with Martin after spotting the teen while driving through his gated townhouse complex on a rainy night in February 2012. Zimmerman has claimed he fired in self-defense after Martin sucker-punched him and began slamming his head into the pavement. Prosecutors have disputed his account and portrayed him as the aggressor.
During closing arguments, de la Rionda argued that Zimmerman showed ill will and hatred when he whispered profanities to a police dispatcher over his cellphone while following Martin through the neighborhood. He said Zimmerman "profiled" the teenager as a criminal.
"He assumed Trayvon Martin was a criminal," de la Rionda said. "That is why we are here." ."
View gallery George Zimmerman stands for instructions from Judge … George Zimmerman stands for instructions from Judge Debra Nelson with attorney Lorna Truett, left, a …
The prosecutor told the jury that Zimmerman wanted to be a police officer and that's why he followed Martin. But "the law doesn't allow people to take the law into their own hands," de la Rionda said.
De la Rionda's two-hour presentation also included moments when he seemed to appeal to jurors' emotions by showing a head shot from Martin's autopsy and a face-up crime scene photo of Martin. Several jurors looked away.
The prosecutor also repeatedly asked why Zimmerman left his truck the night of the shooting.
"Why does this defendant get out of his car if he thought Trayvon Martin is a threat to him?" de la Rionda asked. "Why? Because he had a gun."
Later, when he straddled a foam mannequin to dispute Zimmerman's account of how the struggle unfolded, the entire back row of jurors stood. One juror even stepped down to get a better view. ."
View gallery George Zimmerman's parents, Robert Zimmerman Sr., left, … George Zimmerman's parents, Robert Zimmerman Sr., left, and Gladys Zimmerman sit in court for closin …
De la Rionda implored jurors to believe the account of Martin's friend Rachel Jeantel, who was on the phone with him moments before the shooting and said she heard him yelling, "Get off!" The prosecutor asked jurors to discount her "colorful language," and he put a twist on a quote by the Rev. Martin Luther King to persuade them.
"She should be judged not by the color of her personality but by the content of her testimony," de la Rionda said.
Zimmerman's lawyers are expected to deliver their closing arguments Friday morning.
Decision made today to provide an instruction for manslaughter as a lesser-included offense.
That's interesting, I suppose it really shouldn't change too much though because that would still mean they have to prove he wasn't acting in self-defense (legal justification) right? They just no longer have to prove he killed Trayvon out of ill-will or spite.
On July 12 2013 12:00 kmillz wrote: Not that yahoo is known for fantastic journalism, but is it true that George Zimmerman could end up with a manslaughter charge? I thought that it was all or nothing.
SANFORD, Fla. (AP) — In an unmistakable setback for George Zimmerman, the jury at the neighborhood watch captain's second-degree murder trial was given the option Thursday of convicting him on the lesser charge of manslaughter in the shooting of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.
Judge Debra Nelson issued her ruling over the objections of Zimmerman's lawyers shortly before a prosecutor delivered a closing argument in which he portrayed the defendant as an aspiring police officer who assumed Martin was up to no good and took the law into his own hands.
"A teenager is dead. He is dead through no fault of his own," prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda told the jurors. "He is dead because a man made assumptions. ... Unfortunately because his assumptions were wrong, Trayvon Benjamin Martin no longer walks this Earth."
Because of the judge's ruling, the six jurors will have three options when they start deliberations as early as Friday: guilty of second-degree murder, guilty of manslaughter and not guilty.
Zimmerman attorney Don West had argued an all-or-nothing strategy, saying the only charge that should be put before the jury is second-degree murder. ."
View gallery George Zimmerman arrives for his trial in Seminole … George Zimmerman arrives for his trial in Seminole circuit court in Sanford, Fla. Thursday, July 11, …
"The state has charged him with second-degree murder. They should be required to prove it," West said. "If they had wanted to charge him with manslaughter ... they could do that."
To win a second-degree murder conviction, prosecutors must prove Zimmerman showed ill will, hatred or spite — a burden the defense has argued the state failed to meet. To get a manslaughter conviction, prosecutors must show only that Zimmerman killed without lawful justification.
Allowing the jurors to consider manslaughter could give those who aren't convinced the shooting amounted to murder a way to hold Zimmerman responsible for the death of the unarmed teen, said David Hill, an Orlando defense attorney with no connection to the case.
"From the jury's point of view, if they don't like the second-degree murder — and I can see why they don't like it — he doesn't want to give them any options to convict on lesser charges," Hill said of the defense attorney.
Because of the way Florida law imposes longer sentences for crimes committed with a gun, manslaughter could end up carrying a penalty as heavy as the one for second-degree murder: life in prison. ."
View gallery Assistant state attorney Bernie de la Rionda presents … Assistant state attorney Bernie de la Rionda presents the state's closing arguments in George Zimmer …
It is standard for prosecutors in Florida murder cases to ask that the jury be allowed to consider lesser charges that were not actually brought against the defendant. And it is not unusual for judges to grant such requests.
Prosecutor Richard Mantei also asked that the jury be allowed to consider third-degree murder, on the premise that Zimmerman committed child abuse when he shot the underage Martin. Zimmerman's lawyer called that "bizarre" and "outrageous," and the judge sided with the defense.
Zimmerman, 29, got into a scuffle with Martin after spotting the teen while driving through his gated townhouse complex on a rainy night in February 2012. Zimmerman has claimed he fired in self-defense after Martin sucker-punched him and began slamming his head into the pavement. Prosecutors have disputed his account and portrayed him as the aggressor.
During closing arguments, de la Rionda argued that Zimmerman showed ill will and hatred when he whispered profanities to a police dispatcher over his cellphone while following Martin through the neighborhood. He said Zimmerman "profiled" the teenager as a criminal.
"He assumed Trayvon Martin was a criminal," de la Rionda said. "That is why we are here." ."
View gallery George Zimmerman stands for instructions from Judge … George Zimmerman stands for instructions from Judge Debra Nelson with attorney Lorna Truett, left, a …
The prosecutor told the jury that Zimmerman wanted to be a police officer and that's why he followed Martin. But "the law doesn't allow people to take the law into their own hands," de la Rionda said.
De la Rionda's two-hour presentation also included moments when he seemed to appeal to jurors' emotions by showing a head shot from Martin's autopsy and a face-up crime scene photo of Martin. Several jurors looked away.
The prosecutor also repeatedly asked why Zimmerman left his truck the night of the shooting.
"Why does this defendant get out of his car if he thought Trayvon Martin is a threat to him?" de la Rionda asked. "Why? Because he had a gun."
Later, when he straddled a foam mannequin to dispute Zimmerman's account of how the struggle unfolded, the entire back row of jurors stood. One juror even stepped down to get a better view. ."
View gallery George Zimmerman's parents, Robert Zimmerman Sr., left, … George Zimmerman's parents, Robert Zimmerman Sr., left, and Gladys Zimmerman sit in court for closin …
De la Rionda implored jurors to believe the account of Martin's friend Rachel Jeantel, who was on the phone with him moments before the shooting and said she heard him yelling, "Get off!" The prosecutor asked jurors to discount her "colorful language," and he put a twist on a quote by the Rev. Martin Luther King to persuade them.
"She should be judged not by the color of her personality but by the content of her testimony," de la Rionda said.
Zimmerman's lawyers are expected to deliver their closing arguments Friday morning.
On Thursday, the judge, Debra S. Nelson, said the jury would also be able to consider manslaughter as a lesser charge. This charge is typically included in Florida murder cases if either side requests it. Manslaughter with a firearm carries a sentence of up to 30 years in prison.
On July 12 2013 11:56 sc2superfan101 wrote: I want anyone to give me a scenario in which it is at all possible, given the evidence we've now seen, that Zimmerman somehow ran down a physically fit, 17 year old football player, and then started a fight only to get on the losing end (John Good's testimony), and then take back control of the fight (without injuring Trayvon in any way) and shoot him.
Because that sequence of events is 100% required to have occurred for Zimmerman to be guilty of what he's charged, and that, to me, is so unbelievably absurd a scenario that you might as well say that Zimmerman used his secret spiderman powers to do it.
he can still get manslaughter without needing to meet all your strict requirements
On July 12 2013 12:00 kmillz wrote: Not that yahoo is known for fantastic journalism, but is it true that George Zimmerman could end up with a manslaughter charge? I thought that it was all or nothing.
SANFORD, Fla. (AP) — In an unmistakable setback for George Zimmerman, the jury at the neighborhood watch captain's second-degree murder trial was given the option Thursday of convicting him on the lesser charge of manslaughter in the shooting of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.
Judge Debra Nelson issued her ruling over the objections of Zimmerman's lawyers shortly before a prosecutor delivered a closing argument in which he portrayed the defendant as an aspiring police officer who assumed Martin was up to no good and took the law into his own hands.
"A teenager is dead. He is dead through no fault of his own," prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda told the jurors. "He is dead because a man made assumptions. ... Unfortunately because his assumptions were wrong, Trayvon Benjamin Martin no longer walks this Earth."
Because of the judge's ruling, the six jurors will have three options when they start deliberations as early as Friday: guilty of second-degree murder, guilty of manslaughter and not guilty.
Zimmerman attorney Don West had argued an all-or-nothing strategy, saying the only charge that should be put before the jury is second-degree murder. ."
View gallery George Zimmerman arrives for his trial in Seminole … George Zimmerman arrives for his trial in Seminole circuit court in Sanford, Fla. Thursday, July 11, …
"The state has charged him with second-degree murder. They should be required to prove it," West said. "If they had wanted to charge him with manslaughter ... they could do that."
To win a second-degree murder conviction, prosecutors must prove Zimmerman showed ill will, hatred or spite — a burden the defense has argued the state failed to meet. To get a manslaughter conviction, prosecutors must show only that Zimmerman killed without lawful justification.
Allowing the jurors to consider manslaughter could give those who aren't convinced the shooting amounted to murder a way to hold Zimmerman responsible for the death of the unarmed teen, said David Hill, an Orlando defense attorney with no connection to the case.
"From the jury's point of view, if they don't like the second-degree murder — and I can see why they don't like it — he doesn't want to give them any options to convict on lesser charges," Hill said of the defense attorney.
Because of the way Florida law imposes longer sentences for crimes committed with a gun, manslaughter could end up carrying a penalty as heavy as the one for second-degree murder: life in prison. ."
View gallery Assistant state attorney Bernie de la Rionda presents … Assistant state attorney Bernie de la Rionda presents the state's closing arguments in George Zimmer …
It is standard for prosecutors in Florida murder cases to ask that the jury be allowed to consider lesser charges that were not actually brought against the defendant. And it is not unusual for judges to grant such requests.
Prosecutor Richard Mantei also asked that the jury be allowed to consider third-degree murder, on the premise that Zimmerman committed child abuse when he shot the underage Martin. Zimmerman's lawyer called that "bizarre" and "outrageous," and the judge sided with the defense.
Zimmerman, 29, got into a scuffle with Martin after spotting the teen while driving through his gated townhouse complex on a rainy night in February 2012. Zimmerman has claimed he fired in self-defense after Martin sucker-punched him and began slamming his head into the pavement. Prosecutors have disputed his account and portrayed him as the aggressor.
During closing arguments, de la Rionda argued that Zimmerman showed ill will and hatred when he whispered profanities to a police dispatcher over his cellphone while following Martin through the neighborhood. He said Zimmerman "profiled" the teenager as a criminal.
"He assumed Trayvon Martin was a criminal," de la Rionda said. "That is why we are here." ."
View gallery George Zimmerman stands for instructions from Judge … George Zimmerman stands for instructions from Judge Debra Nelson with attorney Lorna Truett, left, a …
The prosecutor told the jury that Zimmerman wanted to be a police officer and that's why he followed Martin. But "the law doesn't allow people to take the law into their own hands," de la Rionda said.
De la Rionda's two-hour presentation also included moments when he seemed to appeal to jurors' emotions by showing a head shot from Martin's autopsy and a face-up crime scene photo of Martin. Several jurors looked away.
The prosecutor also repeatedly asked why Zimmerman left his truck the night of the shooting.
"Why does this defendant get out of his car if he thought Trayvon Martin is a threat to him?" de la Rionda asked. "Why? Because he had a gun."
Later, when he straddled a foam mannequin to dispute Zimmerman's account of how the struggle unfolded, the entire back row of jurors stood. One juror even stepped down to get a better view. ."
View gallery George Zimmerman's parents, Robert Zimmerman Sr., left, … George Zimmerman's parents, Robert Zimmerman Sr., left, and Gladys Zimmerman sit in court for closin …
De la Rionda implored jurors to believe the account of Martin's friend Rachel Jeantel, who was on the phone with him moments before the shooting and said she heard him yelling, "Get off!" The prosecutor asked jurors to discount her "colorful language," and he put a twist on a quote by the Rev. Martin Luther King to persuade them.
"She should be judged not by the color of her personality but by the content of her testimony," de la Rionda said.
Zimmerman's lawyers are expected to deliver their closing arguments Friday morning.
Decision made today to provide an instruction for manslaughter as a lesser-included offense.
That's interesting, I suppose it really shouldn't change too much though because that would still mean they have to prove he wasn't acting in self-defense (legal justification) right? They just no longer have to prove he killed Trayvon out of ill-will or spite.
Yeah, self-defense definitely protects against both, however there is concern over the jury "compromising" to manslaughter, which will carry quite nearly the same severe punishment as murder 2.
On July 12 2013 12:00 kmillz wrote: Not that yahoo is known for fantastic journalism, but is it true that George Zimmerman could end up with a manslaughter charge? I thought that it was all or nothing.
SANFORD, Fla. (AP) — In an unmistakable setback for George Zimmerman, the jury at the neighborhood watch captain's second-degree murder trial was given the option Thursday of convicting him on the lesser charge of manslaughter in the shooting of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.
Judge Debra Nelson issued her ruling over the objections of Zimmerman's lawyers shortly before a prosecutor delivered a closing argument in which he portrayed the defendant as an aspiring police officer who assumed Martin was up to no good and took the law into his own hands.
"A teenager is dead. He is dead through no fault of his own," prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda told the jurors. "He is dead because a man made assumptions. ... Unfortunately because his assumptions were wrong, Trayvon Benjamin Martin no longer walks this Earth."
Because of the judge's ruling, the six jurors will have three options when they start deliberations as early as Friday: guilty of second-degree murder, guilty of manslaughter and not guilty.
Zimmerman attorney Don West had argued an all-or-nothing strategy, saying the only charge that should be put before the jury is second-degree murder. ."
View gallery George Zimmerman arrives for his trial in Seminole … George Zimmerman arrives for his trial in Seminole circuit court in Sanford, Fla. Thursday, July 11, …
"The state has charged him with second-degree murder. They should be required to prove it," West said. "If they had wanted to charge him with manslaughter ... they could do that."
To win a second-degree murder conviction, prosecutors must prove Zimmerman showed ill will, hatred or spite — a burden the defense has argued the state failed to meet. To get a manslaughter conviction, prosecutors must show only that Zimmerman killed without lawful justification.
Allowing the jurors to consider manslaughter could give those who aren't convinced the shooting amounted to murder a way to hold Zimmerman responsible for the death of the unarmed teen, said David Hill, an Orlando defense attorney with no connection to the case.
"From the jury's point of view, if they don't like the second-degree murder — and I can see why they don't like it — he doesn't want to give them any options to convict on lesser charges," Hill said of the defense attorney.
Because of the way Florida law imposes longer sentences for crimes committed with a gun, manslaughter could end up carrying a penalty as heavy as the one for second-degree murder: life in prison. ."
View gallery Assistant state attorney Bernie de la Rionda presents … Assistant state attorney Bernie de la Rionda presents the state's closing arguments in George Zimmer …
It is standard for prosecutors in Florida murder cases to ask that the jury be allowed to consider lesser charges that were not actually brought against the defendant. And it is not unusual for judges to grant such requests.
Prosecutor Richard Mantei also asked that the jury be allowed to consider third-degree murder, on the premise that Zimmerman committed child abuse when he shot the underage Martin. Zimmerman's lawyer called that "bizarre" and "outrageous," and the judge sided with the defense.
Zimmerman, 29, got into a scuffle with Martin after spotting the teen while driving through his gated townhouse complex on a rainy night in February 2012. Zimmerman has claimed he fired in self-defense after Martin sucker-punched him and began slamming his head into the pavement. Prosecutors have disputed his account and portrayed him as the aggressor.
During closing arguments, de la Rionda argued that Zimmerman showed ill will and hatred when he whispered profanities to a police dispatcher over his cellphone while following Martin through the neighborhood. He said Zimmerman "profiled" the teenager as a criminal.
"He assumed Trayvon Martin was a criminal," de la Rionda said. "That is why we are here." ."
View gallery George Zimmerman stands for instructions from Judge … George Zimmerman stands for instructions from Judge Debra Nelson with attorney Lorna Truett, left, a …
The prosecutor told the jury that Zimmerman wanted to be a police officer and that's why he followed Martin. But "the law doesn't allow people to take the law into their own hands," de la Rionda said.
De la Rionda's two-hour presentation also included moments when he seemed to appeal to jurors' emotions by showing a head shot from Martin's autopsy and a face-up crime scene photo of Martin. Several jurors looked away.
The prosecutor also repeatedly asked why Zimmerman left his truck the night of the shooting.
"Why does this defendant get out of his car if he thought Trayvon Martin is a threat to him?" de la Rionda asked. "Why? Because he had a gun."
Later, when he straddled a foam mannequin to dispute Zimmerman's account of how the struggle unfolded, the entire back row of jurors stood. One juror even stepped down to get a better view. ."
View gallery George Zimmerman's parents, Robert Zimmerman Sr., left, … George Zimmerman's parents, Robert Zimmerman Sr., left, and Gladys Zimmerman sit in court for closin …
De la Rionda implored jurors to believe the account of Martin's friend Rachel Jeantel, who was on the phone with him moments before the shooting and said she heard him yelling, "Get off!" The prosecutor asked jurors to discount her "colorful language," and he put a twist on a quote by the Rev. Martin Luther King to persuade them.
"She should be judged not by the color of her personality but by the content of her testimony," de la Rionda said.
Zimmerman's lawyers are expected to deliver their closing arguments Friday morning.
On Thursday, the judge, Debra S. Nelson, said the jury would also be able to consider manslaughter as a lesser charge. This charge is typically included in Florida murder cases if either side requests it. Manslaughter with a firearm carries a sentence of up to 30 years in prison.
There would be an additional enhancement due to Trayvon being 17.
On July 12 2013 11:56 sc2superfan101 wrote: I want anyone to give me a scenario in which it is at all possible, given the evidence we've now seen, that Zimmerman somehow ran down a physically fit, 17 year old football player, and then started a fight only to get on the losing end (John Good's testimony), and then take back control of the fight (without injuring Trayvon in any way) and shoot him.
Because that sequence of events is 100% required to have occurred for Zimmerman to be guilty of what he's charged, and that, to me, is so unbelievably absurd a scenario that you might as well say that Zimmerman used his secret spiderman powers to do it.
he can still get manslaughter without needing to meet all your strict requirements
Well, first, anything else and he was acting in self-defense and that covers manslaughter.
Also, is there a scenario that exists that is plausible given the evidence that could lead to a manslaughter/murder charge? The prosecution certainly never offered one (pretty rare in this kind of case), and I have yet to hear one.
On July 12 2013 09:55 Myrddraal wrote: Either way, if Zimmerman gets off scott free I would find that extremely fucked up. I can understand that there might not be enough evidence for murder, but you shouldn't be able to stalk someone, get in a fight with them, shoot them, and get off free just because nobody else saw it and you say that they are the one that started it.
You can convict an infinite number of innocent people if you use this like of thinking. That's why the standards for conviction are so high. The story, as Zimmerman tells it, holds up quite well. He most certainly should not go to jail on the opinion that he shouldn't have been following a suspected burglar.
And you could let an infinite number of guilty people go free by simply taking them on their word, so it goes both ways.
His story holds up, but we don't have any other account on the initial encounter, why would he tell a story that incriminates himself in any way? The problem I have is not that I don't find his story conceivable, it's that I don't find it most probable, but unfortunately since he killed the only other witness, his is the only we have to go on.
Edit: Which is why I was wondering about the phone conversation between Trayvon and his friend, because that might be able to give us "some" solid evidence on the beginning of the encounter, which could either validate or invalidate a small part of Zimmerman's story.
The beginning of the confrontation does not change Zimmerman's claim of self-defense. The moment where he had reasonable fear for his life was when he was getting his face punched into cement.
A person is justified in using deadly force if [he] [she] reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent 1. imminent death or great bodily harm to [himself] [herself] or another, or 2. the imminent commission of (applicable forcible felony) against [himself] [herself] or another.
However, the use of deadly force is not justifiable if you find: 1. (Defendant) was attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of (applicable forcible felony); or 2. (Defendant) initially provoked the use of force against [himself] [herself], unless: a. The force asserted toward the defendant was so great that [he] [she] reasonably believed that [he] [she] was in imminent danger of death or great 63 bodily harm and had exhausted every reasonable means to escape the danger, other than using deadly force on (assailant). b. In good faith, the defendant withdrew from physical contact with (assailant) and clearly indicated to (assailant) that [he] [she] wanted to withdraw and stop the use of deadly force, but (assailant) continued or resumed the use of force.
When Martin refused to stop after Zimmerman cried for help for 40 seconds, he gave Zimmerman the opportunity to use justifiable deadly force.
Right, I was less arguing that he would not be able to prove self defense, but more that I feel he is primarily responsible for the sequence of events that resulted in the death of another person, and that within the law there should be some kind punishment.
On July 12 2013 10:50 killa_robot wrote:
On July 12 2013 10:27 Myrddraal wrote:
On July 12 2013 09:59 LegalLord wrote:
On July 12 2013 09:55 Myrddraal wrote: Either way, if Zimmerman gets off scott free I would find that extremely fucked up. I can understand that there might not be enough evidence for murder, but you shouldn't be able to stalk someone, get in a fight with them, shoot them, and get off free just because nobody else saw it and you say that they are the one that started it.
You can convict an infinite number of innocent people if you use this like of thinking. That's why the standards for conviction are so high. The story, as Zimmerman tells it, holds up quite well. He most certainly should not go to jail on the opinion that he shouldn't have been following a suspected burglar.
And you could let an infinite number of guilty people go free by simply taking them on their word, so it goes both ways.
His story holds up, but we don't have any other account on the initial encounter, why would he tell a story that incriminates himself in any way? The problem I have is not that I don't find his story conceivable, it's that I don't find it most probable, but unfortunately since he killed the only other witness, his is the only we have to go on.
Edit: Which is why I was wondering about the phone conversation between Trayvon and his friend, because that might be able to give us "some" solid evidence on the beginning of the encounter, which could either validate or invalidate a small part of Zimmerman's story.
Most people would prefer to let guilty people free than to convict innocent people.
Saying they are just taking him on his word is ignoring all of the other evidence brought in. He has a story, the physical evidence they have compliments his story (from what I've heard it seems), and the accounts of other people either support him or aren't strong enough to call his story into real question. If you find it improbable, what do you actually think happened?
His story fits the evidence, and they have no real reason to think otherwise. Should they convict him simply because it's possible he is lying?
I didn't say it was any better, they are both shitty situations.
The part that I find improbable, is where Trayvon first running away, then coming back to confront Zimmerman, essentially the part where he claims he was checking a street sign and he got jumped by Trayvon. Rachel's testimony does actually go against this:
"Later, the man began following Trayvon, so the teen ran through the gated community to try to get away, Jeantel said.
Trayvon was out of breath when he told Jeantel he had lost the man. Shortly after, Trayvon told Jeantel the man was back and behind him, she said.
"I told him, 'You better run,' " Jeantel said.
Within moments she heard two voices. Jeantel recalled Trayvon saying, "Why are you following me?"
She continued, "Then I heard a hard-breathing man say, 'What are you doing around here?' "
Jeantel then heard a bump and heard Trayvon saying, "Get off. Get off," she said. Seconds later, the phone disconnected, and when she called back, she got no answer."
I find this account more likely (if something has come up to disprove this please let me know), but like I said I would prefer if we could hear the conversation to be sure as she could be lying as well. Do US phone companies keep records of phone conversations or is that something only seen in TV and movies?
Now I understand this does not affect his self defense claim, especially if John Good's testimony is correct, but it does lead me to believe that Zimmerman was the instigator in the situation the resulted in Trayvon's death and subsequently he should be charged with something.
What you just described is manslaughter, which the evidence doesn't support a conclusive conviction for either.
Edit: So we're taking a witness who's been shown multiple times to have lied under oath and changed her testimony as more credible than autopsy reports, eyewitness testimony, and medical reports...okay then.
I never said that she was the most reliable, just that she is the only source apart from Zimmerman that we have as to the beginning of the encounter, I even said she could be lying for christ's sake, but like I said, Zimmerman has every reason to lie about that part too. So unless you can show me the eyewitness testimony (which I asked for before but you ignored) that shows that Trayvon jumped Zimmerman as he claim, it's her word against his, and since both have every reason to lie, I am inclined to believe the story that seems more plausible and hers seems far more likely than his.
You forgot to mention the physical evidence that gives us no logical reason to believe George Zimmerman "attacked" Trayvon first and gives a strong indication that Trayvon was the one who started the physical confrontation. The autopsy and photos of George Zimmerman support George's account much more than they support Jeantells...and her side was pretty empty in substance as well.
Well from her testimony (which I do agree is shaky) it sounded like Zimmerman initially was the aggressor and tried to grab Trayvon or something 'she heard Trayvon saying, "Get off. Get off,"'. There wouldn't be much physical evidence if he didn't actually actually physically hit him, and under the circumstances it would be understandable that Trayvon felt the need to defend himself since he had done nothing wrong and (as far as we know) received no explanation, though of course at a certain point Trayvon got the upper hand and was no longer defending himself.
By "something wrong prior" I meant that assuming that the above scenario was the case, that he followed Trayvon (not inherently wrong), attempted to subdue him (not extremely wrong, possibly only worthy of an assault charge) and after fearing for his life he killed Trayvon. So if this were the sequence of events, what he did initially may not be worthy of a harsh conviction, the result was the death of a person and I still feel he would be responsible.
On July 12 2013 11:56 sc2superfan101 wrote: I want anyone to give me a scenario in which it is at all possible, given the evidence we've now seen, that Zimmerman somehow ran down a physically fit, 17 year old football player, and then started a fight only to get on the losing end (John Good's testimony), and then take back control of the fight (without injuring Trayvon in any way) and shoot him.
Because that sequence of events is 100% required to have occurred for Zimmerman to be guilty of what he's charged, and that, to me, is so unbelievably absurd a scenario that you might as well say that Zimmerman used his secret spiderman powers to do it.
I was under the impression that he did most of his pursuing in his car, though correct me if I am wrong.
I think it's pretty clear that the prosecution has lost the argument over who was yelling for help. Come to think of it, did BDLR even argue today that it was Trayvon ? I don't remember hearing that. Anyways, John Good seeing Trayvon on top reigning down strikes while there was also screaming is obviously damning. So it was either George always yelling for help, or they were both yelling for help, which is absolutely ridiculous. So, Zimmerman yelling for help for the period of time it was on the 911 call, added to the additional 10 to 15 seconds that Jenna Lauer heard the screaming before calling, it's a big fucking hurdle of self-defense to overcome for the prosecution.
On July 12 2013 11:56 sc2superfan101 wrote: I want anyone to give me a scenario in which it is at all possible, given the evidence we've now seen, that Zimmerman somehow ran down a physically fit, 17 year old football player, and then started a fight only to get on the losing end (John Good's testimony), and then take back control of the fight (without injuring Trayvon in any way) and shoot him.
Because that sequence of events is 100% required to have occurred for Zimmerman to be guilty of what he's charged, and that, to me, is so unbelievably absurd a scenario that you might as well say that Zimmerman used his secret spiderman powers to do it.
he can still get manslaughter without needing to meet all your strict requirements
Well, first, anything else and he was acting in self-defense and that covers manslaughter.
Also, is there a scenario that exists that is plausible given the evidence that could lead to a manslaughter/murder charge? The prosecution certainly never offered one (pretty rare in this kind of case), and I have yet to hear one.
zimmerman, pissed that these fucking black punks were getting away with breaking into white mothers' homes and scaring them to death, decides that the next time he sees a black punk in his neighborhood, he was going to get him. proceeds to buy gun. his chance finally arrives: trayvon martin. zimmerman runs down trayvon to confront him thinking that the young kid would be intimated by his size and supersized superman complex. zimmerman yells "what are you doing in my neighborhood punk?" trayvon yells "why you following me" zimmerman gets in trayvon's face. trayvon throws a punch and predictably, soft and .5 zimmerman falls to teh ground and hits his head. trayvon jumps on top to restrain his dumbass and is reaching down over and over and over and over....to try to grab zimmerman's arms rather than punch him MMA style. john good comes out "hey you guys, cant we all just get along, im calling the cops." zimmerman uses the amazing buoyancy of his fat ass to knock trayvon off kilter. trayvon starts pulling back to get away knowing that help was coming via Good. zimmerman pulls out his gun, aims it at trayvon's heart and says "got you you fucking punk" with a gleam in his eye and a smirk of his lip. BAM. one less fucking punk in the neighborhood.
On July 12 2013 11:56 sc2superfan101 wrote: I want anyone to give me a scenario in which it is at all possible, given the evidence we've now seen, that Zimmerman somehow ran down a physically fit, 17 year old football player, and then started a fight only to get on the losing end (John Good's testimony), and then take back control of the fight (without injuring Trayvon in any way) and shoot him.
Because that sequence of events is 100% required to have occurred for Zimmerman to be guilty of what he's charged, and that, to me, is so unbelievably absurd a scenario that you might as well say that Zimmerman used his secret spiderman powers to do it.
he can still get manslaughter without needing to meet all your strict requirements
Well, first, anything else and he was acting in self-defense and that covers manslaughter.
Also, is there a scenario that exists that is plausible given the evidence that could lead to a manslaughter/murder charge? The prosecution certainly never offered one (pretty rare in this kind of case), and I have yet to hear one.
zimmerman, pissed that these fucking black punks were getting away with breaking into white mothers' homes and scaring them to death, decides that the next time he sees a black punk in his neighborhood, he was going to get him. proceeds to buy gun. his chance finally arrives: trayvon martin. zimmerman runs down trayvon to confront him thinking that the young kid would be intimated by his size and supersized superman complex. zimmerman yells "what are you doing in my neighborhood punk?" trayvon yells "why you following me" zimmerman gets in trayvon's face. trayvon throws a punch and predictably, soft and .5 zimmerman falls to teh ground and hits his head. trayvon jumps on top to restrain his dumbass and is reaching down over and over and over and over....to try to grab zimmerman's arms rather than punch him MMA style. john good comes out "hey you guys, cant we all just get along, im calling the cops." zimmerman uses the amazing buoyancy of his fat ass to knock trayvon off kilter. trayvon starts pulling back to get away knowing that help was coming via Good. zimmerman pulls out his gun, aims it at trayvon's heart and says "got you you fucking punk" with a gleam in his eye and a smirk of his lip. BAM. one less fucking punk in the neighborhood.
On July 12 2013 12:13 sc2superfan101 wrote: Well, first, anything else and he was acting in self-defense and that covers manslaughter.
Also, is there a scenario that exists that is plausible given the evidence that could lead to a manslaughter/murder charge? The prosecution certainly never offered one (pretty rare in this kind of case), and I have yet to hear one.
On July 12 2013 11:56 sc2superfan101 wrote: I want anyone to give me a scenario in which it is at all possible, given the evidence we've now seen, that Zimmerman somehow ran down a physically fit, 17 year old football player, and then started a fight only to get on the losing end (John Good's testimony), and then take back control of the fight (without injuring Trayvon in any way) and shoot him.
Because that sequence of events is 100% required to have occurred for Zimmerman to be guilty of what he's charged, and that, to me, is so unbelievably absurd a scenario that you might as well say that Zimmerman used his secret spiderman powers to do it.
he can still get manslaughter without needing to meet all your strict requirements
Well, first, anything else and he was acting in self-defense and that covers manslaughter.
Also, is there a scenario that exists that is plausible given the evidence that could lead to a manslaughter/murder charge? The prosecution certainly never offered one (pretty rare in this kind of case), and I have yet to hear one.
The only scenario I can think of is that George Zimmerman drew the gun on Trayvon, or flashed the gun at Trayvon as a threat. Trayvon, believing his life was in danger, lunged at Zimmerman — you can't really outrun a gun, right? — and tried to plummel him in self-defense. After a brief struggle, Zimmerman got a shot off.
There's no evidence that happened of course. At the same time, we're assuming based on Zimmerman's testimony that Trayvon was unaware that Zimmerman had a gun or that Zimmerman didn't draw his gun prematurely.
On July 12 2013 12:00 kmillz wrote: Not that yahoo is known for fantastic journalism, but is it true that George Zimmerman could end up with a manslaughter charge? I thought that it was all or nothing.
SANFORD, Fla. (AP) — In an unmistakable setback for George Zimmerman, the jury at the neighborhood watch captain's second-degree murder trial was given the option Thursday of convicting him on the lesser charge of manslaughter in the shooting of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.
Judge Debra Nelson issued her ruling over the objections of Zimmerman's lawyers shortly before a prosecutor delivered a closing argument in which he portrayed the defendant as an aspiring police officer who assumed Martin was up to no good and took the law into his own hands.
"A teenager is dead. He is dead through no fault of his own," prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda told the jurors. "He is dead because a man made assumptions. ... Unfortunately because his assumptions were wrong, Trayvon Benjamin Martin no longer walks this Earth."
Because of the judge's ruling, the six jurors will have three options when they start deliberations as early as Friday: guilty of second-degree murder, guilty of manslaughter and not guilty.
Zimmerman attorney Don West had argued an all-or-nothing strategy, saying the only charge that should be put before the jury is second-degree murder. ."
View gallery George Zimmerman arrives for his trial in Seminole … George Zimmerman arrives for his trial in Seminole circuit court in Sanford, Fla. Thursday, July 11, …
"The state has charged him with second-degree murder. They should be required to prove it," West said. "If they had wanted to charge him with manslaughter ... they could do that."
To win a second-degree murder conviction, prosecutors must prove Zimmerman showed ill will, hatred or spite — a burden the defense has argued the state failed to meet. To get a manslaughter conviction, prosecutors must show only that Zimmerman killed without lawful justification.
Allowing the jurors to consider manslaughter could give those who aren't convinced the shooting amounted to murder a way to hold Zimmerman responsible for the death of the unarmed teen, said David Hill, an Orlando defense attorney with no connection to the case.
"From the jury's point of view, if they don't like the second-degree murder — and I can see why they don't like it — he doesn't want to give them any options to convict on lesser charges," Hill said of the defense attorney.
Because of the way Florida law imposes longer sentences for crimes committed with a gun, manslaughter could end up carrying a penalty as heavy as the one for second-degree murder: life in prison. ."
View gallery Assistant state attorney Bernie de la Rionda presents … Assistant state attorney Bernie de la Rionda presents the state's closing arguments in George Zimmer …
It is standard for prosecutors in Florida murder cases to ask that the jury be allowed to consider lesser charges that were not actually brought against the defendant. And it is not unusual for judges to grant such requests.
Prosecutor Richard Mantei also asked that the jury be allowed to consider third-degree murder, on the premise that Zimmerman committed child abuse when he shot the underage Martin. Zimmerman's lawyer called that "bizarre" and "outrageous," and the judge sided with the defense.
Zimmerman, 29, got into a scuffle with Martin after spotting the teen while driving through his gated townhouse complex on a rainy night in February 2012. Zimmerman has claimed he fired in self-defense after Martin sucker-punched him and began slamming his head into the pavement. Prosecutors have disputed his account and portrayed him as the aggressor.
During closing arguments, de la Rionda argued that Zimmerman showed ill will and hatred when he whispered profanities to a police dispatcher over his cellphone while following Martin through the neighborhood. He said Zimmerman "profiled" the teenager as a criminal.
"He assumed Trayvon Martin was a criminal," de la Rionda said. "That is why we are here." ."
View gallery George Zimmerman stands for instructions from Judge … George Zimmerman stands for instructions from Judge Debra Nelson with attorney Lorna Truett, left, a …
The prosecutor told the jury that Zimmerman wanted to be a police officer and that's why he followed Martin. But "the law doesn't allow people to take the law into their own hands," de la Rionda said.
De la Rionda's two-hour presentation also included moments when he seemed to appeal to jurors' emotions by showing a head shot from Martin's autopsy and a face-up crime scene photo of Martin. Several jurors looked away.
The prosecutor also repeatedly asked why Zimmerman left his truck the night of the shooting.
"Why does this defendant get out of his car if he thought Trayvon Martin is a threat to him?" de la Rionda asked. "Why? Because he had a gun."
Later, when he straddled a foam mannequin to dispute Zimmerman's account of how the struggle unfolded, the entire back row of jurors stood. One juror even stepped down to get a better view. ."
View gallery George Zimmerman's parents, Robert Zimmerman Sr., left, … George Zimmerman's parents, Robert Zimmerman Sr., left, and Gladys Zimmerman sit in court for closin …
De la Rionda implored jurors to believe the account of Martin's friend Rachel Jeantel, who was on the phone with him moments before the shooting and said she heard him yelling, "Get off!" The prosecutor asked jurors to discount her "colorful language," and he put a twist on a quote by the Rev. Martin Luther King to persuade them.
"She should be judged not by the color of her personality but by the content of her testimony," de la Rionda said.
Zimmerman's lawyers are expected to deliver their closing arguments Friday morning.
Decision made today to provide an instruction for manslaughter as a lesser-included offense.
That's interesting, I suppose it really shouldn't change too much though because that would still mean they have to prove he wasn't acting in self-defense (legal justification) right? They just no longer have to prove he killed Trayvon out of ill-will or spite.
Yeah, self-defense definitely protects against both, however there is concern over the jury "compromising" to manslaughter, which will carry quite nearly the same severe punishment as murder 2.
Will they be informed that life in prison is still on the table with manslaughter before they make their decision as to whether he gets murder 2, manslaughter, or not guilty?
On July 12 2013 11:56 sc2superfan101 wrote: I want anyone to give me a scenario in which it is at all possible, given the evidence we've now seen, that Zimmerman somehow ran down a physically fit, 17 year old football player, and then started a fight only to get on the losing end (John Good's testimony), and then take back control of the fight (without injuring Trayvon in any way) and shoot him.
Because that sequence of events is 100% required to have occurred for Zimmerman to be guilty of what he's charged, and that, to me, is so unbelievably absurd a scenario that you might as well say that Zimmerman used his secret spiderman powers to do it.
he can still get manslaughter without needing to meet all your strict requirements
Well, first, anything else and he was acting in self-defense and that covers manslaughter.
Also, is there a scenario that exists that is plausible given the evidence that could lead to a manslaughter/murder charge? The prosecution certainly never offered one (pretty rare in this kind of case), and I have yet to hear one.
The only scenario I can think of is that George Zimmerman drew the gun on Trayvon, or flashed the gun at Trayvon as a threat. Trayvon, believing his life was in danger, lunged at Zimmerman and tried to plummel him in self-defense, and after a brief struggle Zimmerman got a shot off.
There's no evidence that happened of course. At the same time, we're assuming based on Zimmerman's testimony that Trayvon was unaware that Zimmerman had a gun or that Zimmerman didn't draw his gun prematurely. Right?
That's a bit of a stretch..but to quote the use of force expert: "anything's possible..that doesn't make it plausible"
On July 12 2013 12:00 kmillz wrote: Not that yahoo is known for fantastic journalism, but is it true that George Zimmerman could end up with a manslaughter charge? I thought that it was all or nothing.
SANFORD, Fla. (AP) — In an unmistakable setback for George Zimmerman, the jury at the neighborhood watch captain's second-degree murder trial was given the option Thursday of convicting him on the lesser charge of manslaughter in the shooting of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.
Judge Debra Nelson issued her ruling over the objections of Zimmerman's lawyers shortly before a prosecutor delivered a closing argument in which he portrayed the defendant as an aspiring police officer who assumed Martin was up to no good and took the law into his own hands.
"A teenager is dead. He is dead through no fault of his own," prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda told the jurors. "He is dead because a man made assumptions. ... Unfortunately because his assumptions were wrong, Trayvon Benjamin Martin no longer walks this Earth."
Because of the judge's ruling, the six jurors will have three options when they start deliberations as early as Friday: guilty of second-degree murder, guilty of manslaughter and not guilty.
Zimmerman attorney Don West had argued an all-or-nothing strategy, saying the only charge that should be put before the jury is second-degree murder. ."
View gallery George Zimmerman arrives for his trial in Seminole … George Zimmerman arrives for his trial in Seminole circuit court in Sanford, Fla. Thursday, July 11, …
"The state has charged him with second-degree murder. They should be required to prove it," West said. "If they had wanted to charge him with manslaughter ... they could do that."
To win a second-degree murder conviction, prosecutors must prove Zimmerman showed ill will, hatred or spite — a burden the defense has argued the state failed to meet. To get a manslaughter conviction, prosecutors must show only that Zimmerman killed without lawful justification.
Allowing the jurors to consider manslaughter could give those who aren't convinced the shooting amounted to murder a way to hold Zimmerman responsible for the death of the unarmed teen, said David Hill, an Orlando defense attorney with no connection to the case.
"From the jury's point of view, if they don't like the second-degree murder — and I can see why they don't like it — he doesn't want to give them any options to convict on lesser charges," Hill said of the defense attorney.
Because of the way Florida law imposes longer sentences for crimes committed with a gun, manslaughter could end up carrying a penalty as heavy as the one for second-degree murder: life in prison. ."
View gallery Assistant state attorney Bernie de la Rionda presents … Assistant state attorney Bernie de la Rionda presents the state's closing arguments in George Zimmer …
It is standard for prosecutors in Florida murder cases to ask that the jury be allowed to consider lesser charges that were not actually brought against the defendant. And it is not unusual for judges to grant such requests.
Prosecutor Richard Mantei also asked that the jury be allowed to consider third-degree murder, on the premise that Zimmerman committed child abuse when he shot the underage Martin. Zimmerman's lawyer called that "bizarre" and "outrageous," and the judge sided with the defense.
Zimmerman, 29, got into a scuffle with Martin after spotting the teen while driving through his gated townhouse complex on a rainy night in February 2012. Zimmerman has claimed he fired in self-defense after Martin sucker-punched him and began slamming his head into the pavement. Prosecutors have disputed his account and portrayed him as the aggressor.
During closing arguments, de la Rionda argued that Zimmerman showed ill will and hatred when he whispered profanities to a police dispatcher over his cellphone while following Martin through the neighborhood. He said Zimmerman "profiled" the teenager as a criminal.
"He assumed Trayvon Martin was a criminal," de la Rionda said. "That is why we are here." ."
View gallery George Zimmerman stands for instructions from Judge … George Zimmerman stands for instructions from Judge Debra Nelson with attorney Lorna Truett, left, a …
The prosecutor told the jury that Zimmerman wanted to be a police officer and that's why he followed Martin. But "the law doesn't allow people to take the law into their own hands," de la Rionda said.
De la Rionda's two-hour presentation also included moments when he seemed to appeal to jurors' emotions by showing a head shot from Martin's autopsy and a face-up crime scene photo of Martin. Several jurors looked away.
The prosecutor also repeatedly asked why Zimmerman left his truck the night of the shooting.
"Why does this defendant get out of his car if he thought Trayvon Martin is a threat to him?" de la Rionda asked. "Why? Because he had a gun."
Later, when he straddled a foam mannequin to dispute Zimmerman's account of how the struggle unfolded, the entire back row of jurors stood. One juror even stepped down to get a better view. ."
View gallery George Zimmerman's parents, Robert Zimmerman Sr., left, … George Zimmerman's parents, Robert Zimmerman Sr., left, and Gladys Zimmerman sit in court for closin …
De la Rionda implored jurors to believe the account of Martin's friend Rachel Jeantel, who was on the phone with him moments before the shooting and said she heard him yelling, "Get off!" The prosecutor asked jurors to discount her "colorful language," and he put a twist on a quote by the Rev. Martin Luther King to persuade them.
"She should be judged not by the color of her personality but by the content of her testimony," de la Rionda said.
Zimmerman's lawyers are expected to deliver their closing arguments Friday morning.
Decision made today to provide an instruction for manslaughter as a lesser-included offense.
That's interesting, I suppose it really shouldn't change too much though because that would still mean they have to prove he wasn't acting in self-defense (legal justification) right? They just no longer have to prove he killed Trayvon out of ill-will or spite.
Yeah, self-defense definitely protects against both, however there is concern over the jury "compromising" to manslaughter, which will carry quite nearly the same severe punishment as murder 2.
Will they be informed that life in prison is still on the table with manslaughter before they make their decision as to whether he gets murder 2, manslaughter, or not guilty?
On July 12 2013 12:00 kmillz wrote: Not that yahoo is known for fantastic journalism, but is it true that George Zimmerman could end up with a manslaughter charge? I thought that it was all or nothing.
SANFORD, Fla. (AP) — In an unmistakable setback for George Zimmerman, the jury at the neighborhood watch captain's second-degree murder trial was given the option Thursday of convicting him on the lesser charge of manslaughter in the shooting of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.
Judge Debra Nelson issued her ruling over the objections of Zimmerman's lawyers shortly before a prosecutor delivered a closing argument in which he portrayed the defendant as an aspiring police officer who assumed Martin was up to no good and took the law into his own hands.
"A teenager is dead. He is dead through no fault of his own," prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda told the jurors. "He is dead because a man made assumptions. ... Unfortunately because his assumptions were wrong, Trayvon Benjamin Martin no longer walks this Earth."
Because of the judge's ruling, the six jurors will have three options when they start deliberations as early as Friday: guilty of second-degree murder, guilty of manslaughter and not guilty.
Zimmerman attorney Don West had argued an all-or-nothing strategy, saying the only charge that should be put before the jury is second-degree murder. ."
View gallery George Zimmerman arrives for his trial in Seminole … George Zimmerman arrives for his trial in Seminole circuit court in Sanford, Fla. Thursday, July 11, …
"The state has charged him with second-degree murder. They should be required to prove it," West said. "If they had wanted to charge him with manslaughter ... they could do that."
To win a second-degree murder conviction, prosecutors must prove Zimmerman showed ill will, hatred or spite — a burden the defense has argued the state failed to meet. To get a manslaughter conviction, prosecutors must show only that Zimmerman killed without lawful justification.
Allowing the jurors to consider manslaughter could give those who aren't convinced the shooting amounted to murder a way to hold Zimmerman responsible for the death of the unarmed teen, said David Hill, an Orlando defense attorney with no connection to the case.
"From the jury's point of view, if they don't like the second-degree murder — and I can see why they don't like it — he doesn't want to give them any options to convict on lesser charges," Hill said of the defense attorney.
Because of the way Florida law imposes longer sentences for crimes committed with a gun, manslaughter could end up carrying a penalty as heavy as the one for second-degree murder: life in prison. ."
View gallery Assistant state attorney Bernie de la Rionda presents … Assistant state attorney Bernie de la Rionda presents the state's closing arguments in George Zimmer …
It is standard for prosecutors in Florida murder cases to ask that the jury be allowed to consider lesser charges that were not actually brought against the defendant. And it is not unusual for judges to grant such requests.
Prosecutor Richard Mantei also asked that the jury be allowed to consider third-degree murder, on the premise that Zimmerman committed child abuse when he shot the underage Martin. Zimmerman's lawyer called that "bizarre" and "outrageous," and the judge sided with the defense.
Zimmerman, 29, got into a scuffle with Martin after spotting the teen while driving through his gated townhouse complex on a rainy night in February 2012. Zimmerman has claimed he fired in self-defense after Martin sucker-punched him and began slamming his head into the pavement. Prosecutors have disputed his account and portrayed him as the aggressor.
During closing arguments, de la Rionda argued that Zimmerman showed ill will and hatred when he whispered profanities to a police dispatcher over his cellphone while following Martin through the neighborhood. He said Zimmerman "profiled" the teenager as a criminal.
"He assumed Trayvon Martin was a criminal," de la Rionda said. "That is why we are here." ."
View gallery George Zimmerman stands for instructions from Judge … George Zimmerman stands for instructions from Judge Debra Nelson with attorney Lorna Truett, left, a …
The prosecutor told the jury that Zimmerman wanted to be a police officer and that's why he followed Martin. But "the law doesn't allow people to take the law into their own hands," de la Rionda said.
De la Rionda's two-hour presentation also included moments when he seemed to appeal to jurors' emotions by showing a head shot from Martin's autopsy and a face-up crime scene photo of Martin. Several jurors looked away.
The prosecutor also repeatedly asked why Zimmerman left his truck the night of the shooting.
"Why does this defendant get out of his car if he thought Trayvon Martin is a threat to him?" de la Rionda asked. "Why? Because he had a gun."
Later, when he straddled a foam mannequin to dispute Zimmerman's account of how the struggle unfolded, the entire back row of jurors stood. One juror even stepped down to get a better view. ."
View gallery George Zimmerman's parents, Robert Zimmerman Sr., left, … George Zimmerman's parents, Robert Zimmerman Sr., left, and Gladys Zimmerman sit in court for closin …
De la Rionda implored jurors to believe the account of Martin's friend Rachel Jeantel, who was on the phone with him moments before the shooting and said she heard him yelling, "Get off!" The prosecutor asked jurors to discount her "colorful language," and he put a twist on a quote by the Rev. Martin Luther King to persuade them.
"She should be judged not by the color of her personality but by the content of her testimony," de la Rionda said.
Zimmerman's lawyers are expected to deliver their closing arguments Friday morning.
Decision made today to provide an instruction for manslaughter as a lesser-included offense.
That's interesting, I suppose it really shouldn't change too much though because that would still mean they have to prove he wasn't acting in self-defense (legal justification) right? They just no longer have to prove he killed Trayvon out of ill-will or spite.
Yeah, self-defense definitely protects against both, however there is concern over the jury "compromising" to manslaughter, which will carry quite nearly the same severe punishment as murder 2.
Will they be informed that life in prison is still on the table with manslaughter before they make their decision as to whether he gets murder 2, manslaughter, or not guilty?
no. thats an improper consideration.
Well shit, I don't get why they didn't just try him for manslaughter in the first place given that murder 2 and manslaughter could result in the exact same punishment..and given that murder 2 is a little harder to prove.
EPT
