EPTOn May 31 2013 10:45 Slaughter wrote:
Not for murder but manslaughter or some kind of reckless endangerment thing? Yes.
Not for murder but manslaughter or some kind of reckless endangerment thing? Yes.
Why?
Shooting of Trayvon Martin - Page 105
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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP. If you make an uninformed post, or one that isn't relevant to the discussion, you will be moderated. If in doubt, don't post. | ||
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kmillz
United States1548 Posts
Why? | ||
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tokicheese
Canada739 Posts
On May 31 2013 10:28 xDaunt wrote: For those of you who are not fans of Zimmerman and think that he did something wrong, do you really think that there is a snowball's chance in hell that the prosecution has enough evidence to convict him beyond a reasonable doubt? The only reason he is being tried is because of the make believe racial element that the media portrayed it as tbh. A mean racist hick chases down and murders a defenceless 10 year old (according to Trayvon pics). | ||
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heliusx
United States2306 Posts
On May 31 2013 10:48 tokicheese wrote: The only reason he is being tried is because of the make believe racial element that the media portrayed it as tbh. A mean racist hick chases down and murders a defenceless 10 year old (according to Trayvon pics). He's on trial because he killed someone under suspicious circumstances. Let's not pretend we know what happened because we don't. | ||
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Slaughter
United States20255 Posts
Because of his actions someone died. He was told to stop by police but he continued to follow Martin and eventually confronted him. He doesn't have any authority to do anything and by confronting him he started a chain of events that led to a death. He shouldn't have been there in the first place. | ||
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kmillz
United States1548 Posts
On May 31 2013 11:09 Slaughter wrote: Because of his actions someone died. He was told to stop by police but he continued to follow Martin and eventually confronted him. He doesn't have any authority to do anything and by confronting him he started a chain of events that led to a death. He shouldn't have been there in the first place. Trayvon didn't have to beat the shit out of him either, but he did. He beat somebody up and got shot for it. | ||
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Slaughter
United States20255 Posts
On May 31 2013 11:38 kmillz wrote: Trayvon didn't have to beat the shit out of him either, but he did. He beat somebody up and got shot for it. That doesn't matter. It would not have happened it he didn't disobey the officer and went anyway. He went into a potentially volatile situation that he isn't trained to be in and it blew up in his face and someone died because of it. | ||
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kmillz
United States1548 Posts
On May 31 2013 11:42 Slaughter wrote: That doesn't matter. It would not have happened it he didn't disobey the officer and went anyway. He went into a potentially volatile situation that he isn't trained to be in and it blew up in his face and someone died because of it. He didn't disobey anybody, he wasn't given any orders. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On May 31 2013 08:21 Thieving Magpie wrote: Wait--so the counter evidence is that the dad is lying and the witness are being coached? That just because Zman stopped running he wasn't still following? I mean, his car was right there, but instead he randomly just walks towards Martin? The scream is up to debate. The bloody nose doesn't prove who initiated the attack. The only thing we have is someone who said he was following someone, that person not returning to his car, ending up where the person he was following was, and the person he was following getting shot. That's all we have. Witnesses changing stories, experts disagreeing, etc... all that shows is that a lot is still up for debate. The only thing not up for debate is an armed man following an unarmed kid and that kid getting shot. EDIT: Just saw your edit, and I have to say that its definitely a possible interpretation. The only portion I really disagree with is the phone randomly cutting off. If he was wearing a headset as it has been suggested at one point (I forget) then the only thing I can imagine is that it got knocked off his head. If it was a phone, I can only imagine that it got knocked off his hands. Its hard for me to imagine a kid breaking his own phone for no reason, so it seems to me that Zman might have been the one to knock it off which tells me that it definitely was Zman who initiated the argument. And somewhere between bravery and fear the gun just got used. Yes, Zman does sound like a guy who cares about his community. I think he has all the traits a vigilante would have. A sense of responsibility, distrust in the full use of police, etc... Give him a gun and suddenly a kid gets shot. Thank you for your interpretation of the narrative. @bolded say what? lol. Ya, I doubt he planned to break his headset but you're stretching it by claiming that Zimmerman started the argument because Martin couldn't have knocked it out. For all we know, Martin decided to wave his hands around in the air to scare Zimmerman off when they met and then knocked it off and the phone went dead. It's still a reasonable possibility even though it sounds absurd ^^ @underlined he has distrust because in the past, he kept on calling the police to report robbers but the robbers always got away because the police would arrive late. His neighbours elected him as head of the neighborhood watch group(from what I recall) and his neighbours talked about how much he tried to make the neighborhood safer and appreciated it. You're trying way too hard to pin it 100% on him instead of looking at all the possibilities. If you read my edit which I believe you did, . I suggest you think this situation from a nonbias POV  On May 31 2013 11:09 Slaughter wrote: Because of his actions someone died. He was told to stop by police but he continued to follow Martin and eventually confronted him. He doesn't have any authority to do anything and by confronting him he started a chain of events that led to a death. He shouldn't have been there in the first place. @bolded thing is, we dunno who confronted who first. All we know is that eventually the two of them got into a confrontation and according to Trayvon's gf, Trayvon talked to Zimmerman first. | ||
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Slaughter
United States20255 Posts
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Anesthetic
United States225 Posts
On May 31 2013 11:49 Slaughter wrote: He was close enough to be in speaking distance to Martin, who saw him stare at him and then get out of his car and follow him. If your getting that close you are confronting someone. And didn't the dispatch officer tell him to stop following him and let the police check it out? So because Zimmerman confronted Trayvon that gave him (Trayvon) the right to fight? It in no way does, despite the fact that Zimmerman was all up in his business didnt mean he had to defend himself, situations like those happen all the time and they dont end up in fights, in my opinion the person who initiated the fight is the person to blame. Even if Zimmerman was confronting Trayvon he still couldve walked away. | ||
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kmillz
United States1548 Posts
On May 31 2013 11:49 Slaughter wrote: He was close enough to be in speaking distance to Martin, who saw him stare at him and then get out of his car and follow him. If your getting that close you are confronting someone. And didn't the dispatch officer tell him to stop following him and let the police check it out? We don't know how close he was to him when he was keeping an eye on him after he got out of his car. No, they didn't. | ||
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Slaughter
United States20255 Posts
On May 31 2013 12:01 Anesthetic wrote: So because Zimmerman confronted Trayvon that gave him (Trayvon) the right to fight? It in no way does, despite the fact that Zimmerman was all up in his business didnt mean he had to defend himself, situations like those happen all the time and they dont end up in fights, in my opinion the person who initiated the fight is the person to blame. Even if Zimmerman was confronting Trayvon he still couldve walked away. Being followed by a guy you don't know at night time in an area supposedly that has significant crime? Kind of explains why Trayvon would be really nervous and afraid. Bottom line in MY view its all on Zimmerman because he was essentially stalking someone at night, which reasonably leads to the other individual (Martin) becoming nervous/afraid. Getting close enough to come into contact with him and question him elevates the stress level of Martin. All leads to the muddled events of the confrontation and a man ends up dead. All because Zimmerman wants to play captain neighborhood watch and do something he is not trained to do or is supposed to do. Civilians should not be confronting/following potential criminals. This whole situation is why people shouldn't do what Zimmerman did. | ||
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Slaughter
United States20255 Posts
On May 31 2013 12:02 kmillz wrote: We don't know how close he was to him when he was keeping an eye on him after he got out of his car. No, they didn't. How is a police dispatcher saying he shouldn't do anything not a huge clue that he shouldn't be doing what he did after his call to police? The OP says the dispatcher said to not take any further action. Unless that is old/outdated? | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On May 31 2013 12:12 Slaughter wrote: Being followed by a guy you don't know at night time in an area supposedly that has significant crime? Kind of explains why Trayvon would be really nervous and afraid. Bottom line in MY view its all on Zimmerman because he was essentially stalking someone at night, which reasonably leads to the other individual (Martin) becoming nervous/afraid. Getting close enough to come into contact with him and question him elevates the stress level of Martin. All leads to the muddled events of the confrontation and a man ends up dead. All because Zimmerman wants to play captain neighborhood watch and do something he is not trained to do or is supposed to do. Civilians should not be confronting/following potential criminals. This whole situation is why people shouldn't do what Zimmerman did. @bolded OP explained why it wasn't stalking in the OP lol. I know other people made that first argument and he clarified how it wasn't under the law. If its not in the OP, unfortunately, I don't remember what page it was on >< For police dispatcher, I believe the main point is that it was an order of any kind, just a suggestion that he doesn't have to follow. BTW, according to him, he went back to his car after the police dispatcher told him that and then Martin came and banged his head in the car etc... | ||
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Anesthetic
United States225 Posts
On May 31 2013 12:12 Slaughter wrote: Being followed by a guy you don't know at night time in an area supposedly that has significant crime? Kind of explains why Trayvon would be really nervous and afraid. Bottom line in MY view its all on Zimmerman because he was essentially stalking someone at night, which reasonably leads to the other individual (Martin) becoming nervous/afraid. Getting close enough to come into contact with him and question him elevates the stress level of Martin. All leads to the muddled events of the confrontation and a man ends up dead. All because Zimmerman wants to play captain neighborhood watch and do something he is not trained to do or is supposed to do. Civilians should not be confronting/following potential criminals. This whole situation is why people shouldn't do what Zimmerman did. If you live in an area that has significant crime you dont stop and try to confront someone who is following you unless 1) you are protecting a significant other/loved one 2) you think you are *tough shit* and willing to take the risk to fight some random person at night. Trayvon if he chose to stop and fight Zimmerman made a very big mistake that cost him his life, not to say thats what actually happened. I do agree Zimmerman should not have done what he did either but at the same time people should stop acting like Zimmerman is the only one that caused this situation to happen(I am basing this on the information that Trayvon chose to confront Zimmerman) | ||
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Jormundr
United States1678 Posts
On May 31 2013 12:24 Anesthetic wrote: If you live in an area that has significant crime you dont stop and try to confront someone who is following you unless 1) you are protecting a significant other/loved one 2) you think you are *tough shit* and willing to take the risk to fight some random person at night. Trayvon if he chose to stop and fight Zimmerman made a very big mistake that cost him his life, not to say thats what actually happened. I do agree Zimmerman should not have done what he did either but at the same time people should stop acting like Zimmerman is the only one that caused this situation to happen(I am basing this on the information that Trayvon chose to confront Zimmerman) This is a gang neighborhood or something? | ||
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Anesthetic
United States225 Posts
Doesn't have to be a gang neighborhood, but from what i gather, the location of the incident wasnt downtown NYC or anywhere safe, it had quite its fair share of crime. If im wrong feel free to correct me but thats just what i've read and heard. | ||
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theaxis12
United States489 Posts
On May 31 2013 10:28 xDaunt wrote: For those of you who are not fans of Zimmerman and think that he did something wrong, do you really think that there is a snowball's chance in hell that the prosecution has enough evidence to convict him beyond a reasonable doubt? Yes, because there is no doubt there was a homicide, now we must determine whether it was justifiable or not. As I posted before: On May 30 2013 09:06 theaxis12 wrote: From the Wiki on Justifiable homicide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justifiable_homicide "A homicide may be considered justified if it is done to prevent a very serious crime, such as rape, armed robbery, manslaughter or murder. The assailant's intent to commit a serious crime must be clear at the time." "The circumstances under which homicide is justified are usually considered to be that the defendant had no alternative method of self-defense or defense of another than to kill the attacker." I don't feel those conditions were met because Martin was not committing nor showed signs of committing a serious crime and there were many alternatives besides a point blank shot to the chest that Zimmerman had at his disposal to end the fight. | ||
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Slaughter
United States20255 Posts
On May 31 2013 12:24 Anesthetic wrote: If you live in an area that has significant crime you dont stop and try to confront someone who is following you unless 1) you are protecting a significant other/loved one 2) you think you are *tough shit* and willing to take the risk to fight some random person at night. Trayvon if he chose to stop and fight Zimmerman made a very big mistake that cost him his life, not to say thats what actually happened. I do agree Zimmerman should not have done what he did either but at the same time people should stop acting like Zimmerman is the only one that caused this situation to happen(I am basing this on the information that Trayvon chose to confront Zimmerman) I agree that its not all his fault but he brought the gun into the situation that he shouldn't be in because of the higher potential for conflict. That's why I said he should not get charged with murder but with some kind of reckless endangerment type thing I could see happening. He was being reckless in his actions and someone ended up dead. If Martin also made mistakes that doesn't matter in my view because it was all started by Zimmerman. | ||
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Jormundr
United States1678 Posts
On May 31 2013 12:56 Slaughter wrote: I agree that its not all his fault but he brought the gun into the situation that he shouldn't be in because of the higher potential for conflict. That's why I said he should not get charged with murder but with some kind of reckless endangerment type thing I could see happening. He was being reckless in his actions and someone ended up dead. If Martin also made mistakes that doesn't matter in my view because it was all started by Zimmerman. TL;DR: Zimmerman entered the fight because he knew he was either on the high ground or he held even footing. | ||
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