EPT2012 French Presidential Election - Page 48
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iFU.pauline
France1648 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France7913 Posts
On May 03 2012 19:27 lain2501 wrote: they argue on things and they don't have any documents to back them up, how can you verify the authenticity of their saying, this is stupid lol ^^ They weren't thinking obviously that was a recital. There is some fact checking being done: http://decodeurs.blog.lemonde.fr/2012/05/03/erreurs-contreverites-et-controverses-du-debat/ "Moi président de la république" daftpunk remix!!! http://next.liberation.fr/musique/2012/05/03/moi-president-de-la-republique-remixe-sur-around-the-world-de-daft-punk_816050 | ||
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Nouar
France3270 Posts
On topic : Sarkozy needed to OWN this debate to have a chance to win, he didn't manage it. It was at best equal, both made good points, I think Hollande managed to have a slight edge on this debate since it was centered around his ideas, and they nearly didn't talk about what Sarkozy would do. Hollande was cornered on retention centers, Sarkozy was forced to lie on several occasions, both used not false-not true figures and numbers, mostly too complicated for the common people. It was long and dirty, many people didn't expect Hollande to be like this, while Sarkozy wanted to appear calm and composed but kinda failed as he was brought to insult Hollande a few times. I think overall it didn't change Sarkozy's image, but was an improvement of Hollande's one. As I said, Sarko needed to 100% win the debate to have a chance to reverse things, it didn't happen, so I think he's toast whatever happens now. On a sidenote : I was quite happy with a small part of the debate Hollande brought up I didn't think about : successfully dismantling Fessenheim's nuclear reactor would be like a window and showcase of what we can do, to entice the world, which has a LOT of nuclear reactors to be dismantled soon, to use our expertise and companies on theirs, and could bring us a few big contracts. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7913 Posts
On May 03 2012 20:03 Nouar wrote: Could you stop about philosophy please ? On topic : Sarkozy needed to OWN this debate to have a chance to win, he didn't manage it. It was at best equal, both made good points, I think Hollande managed to have a slight edge on this debate since it was centered around his ideas, and they nearly didn't talk about what Sarkozy would do. Hollande was cornered on retention centers, Sarkozy was forced to lie on several occasions, both used not false-not true figures and numbers, mostly too complicated for the common people. It was long and dirty, many people didn't expect Hollande to be like this, while Sarkozy wanted to appear calm and composed but kinda failed as he was brought to insult Hollande a few times. I think overall it didn't change Sarkozy's image, but was an improvement of Hollande's one. As I said, Sarko needed to 100% win the debate to have a chance to reverse things, it didn't happen, so I think he's toast whatever happens now. On a sidenote : I was quite happy with a small part of the debate Hollande brought up I didn't think about : successfully dismantling Fessenheim's nuclear reactor would be like a window and showcase of what we can do, to entice the world, which has a LOT of nuclear reactors to be dismantled soon, to use our expertise and companies on theirs, and could bring us a few big contracts. Apparently, the debate never changed anything, in any of the past presidential election. Also, Sarkozy has between 6 and 10 points difference with Hollande. In three days, it's almost impossible to fill such a gap. The only thing Sarkozy could hope is that Hollande completely fuck up the debate, but Hollande is Hollande and say what you want, he doesn't fuck up anything. He hasn't been that brilliant, but there has been basically no misstep since the beginning of the campaign, which is quite impressive. | ||
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chuky500
France473 Posts
This video shows the point of view of Credit Agricole on Hollande's program. It's very instructive and hard to disagree with the analysis. You can read the report in English. | ||
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VyingsP
France174 Posts
On May 03 2012 20:41 Biff The Understudy wrote: Apparently, the debate never changed anything, in any of the past presidential election. Also, Sarkozy has between 6 and 10 points difference with Hollande. In three days, it's almost impossible to fill such a gap. The only thing Sarkozy could hope is that Hollande completely fuck up the debate, but Hollande is Hollande and say what you want, he doesn't fuck up anything. He hasn't been that brilliant, but there has been basically no misstep since the beginning of the campaign, which is quite impressive. If you really believe that, I am sorry to have to tell you that you are really naïve. Hollande is favored, but the likelihood of Hollande leading the election with 10 points is : 0 zero null nada I do not know what they are smoking at Ipsos TNS Sofres Logica BVA Harris Interactive CSA Ipsos, but I am willing to bet a good amount of money that is not legal. + Show Spoiler + Go vote And thanks for that awesome daft punk remix ! | ||
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Microchaton
France342 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France7913 Posts
On May 03 2012 21:29 VyingsP wrote: If you really believe that, I am sorry to have to tell you that you are really naïve. Hollande is favored, but the likelihood of Hollande leading the election with 10 points is : 0 zero null nada I do not know what they are smoking at Ipsos TNS Sofres Logica BVA Harris Interactive CSA Ipsos, but I am willing to bet a good amount of money that is not legal. + Show Spoiler + Go vote And thanks for that awesome daft punk remix ! lol what you think the polls are biaised? Sarkozy will lose. And yes, he is 6-10 points between Hollande, in every single poll. Between 45-55 and 47-53. He will probably do 47-48% since the gap is always a little less than planned. Anyway. Just talking around me, and a lot of people who voted Sarko last time are voting Hollande, and people rooting for Hollande are super motivated. People have had enough of Sarkozy. | ||
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Otolia
France5805 Posts
On May 03 2012 21:26 chuky500 wrote: The debate was fun but it was more about the form than content. This video shows the point of view of Credit Agricole on Hollande's program. It's very instructive and hard to disagree with the analysis. Pathetic. There is NO ONE on earth who understands who global economics works. It's a complex system and a much harder one to build a model on. This golden boys are just bunches of arrogant jerks who were brought up in the illusion that they were smarter than anyone. There is other solution than bend over to the financial market - which is not an entity but a federation of capitalist whose sole objective is to rack up money at all cost. There is another European Union, but it will be necessary for every country to abandon a part of their authority in order to make a more stronger political union. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
The one thing about the debate is that I feel Sarkozy's ideas make more sense. Even if Sarko didn't destroy Hollande, he defended his ideas well. Sarkozy is right about the idea of reducing immigration, to better accommodate them. Too many people come to France without adding anything to our society. If immigrants are just left alone without any support it's not good for them and it's not good for us. I agree about continuing to use nuclear energy. Our reactors have never had a problem and we're damn good at using them. ;/ I agree about education. We don't need more teachers for 5 year olds. "Teaching" to 5 year olds is easy as shit. Maybe it's because I just get along with kids who are half my age really well and others don't, but there's nothing hard at all about classes up until the collège (and even then). The material you're teaching is crap easy. It's retarded to want to add more teachers there. When I came from the USA to France, I got 17,5/20 on my first math test without studying. And I'm not even smart. Where French education really needs a revamp is in lycées. They work 18 hours a week. Teachers, (with a few exceptions obviously, I've had good teachers), are mostly incompetent as well. They don't work a lot and they do their work poorly. I didn't have an English teacher for half a year in Terminale. Our philosophy teacher in Terminale was absent quite, quite often. One time she came to class and said that she was tired. We all obviously told her that we just shouldn't do class. She agreed and just left. As a student I was quite happy with these arrangements, but unfortunately that kind of bullshit is common in lycées, I've talked to other people from other lycées who said they had similar stories. Those lazy fucks work 18 hours a week, 8 months a year and they're still payed more than the minimum wage. Well something is wrong there.* Sarkozy probably lost every single vote from teachers when he said he was going to make them work more, but he's right lol. Yet Hollande wants to add 60k more lazy fucks? PUH-LEASE. I already stated what I thought about Afghanistan. There are obviously other issues I haven't mentioned here, Sarkozy is still a clown to me, but I just disagree with everything Hollande says. Maybe someone who is going to vote Hollande can tell me why they're doing so, for another reason other than "i don't like sarko". I need a good reason not to move to Germany if Hollande gets elected. q_q *NB: Students work 35 hours a week not counting the homework they're supposed to do for every subject. I really fail to see how teachers need more than a handful of hours per week to prepare their lessons and grade papers, especially since they have one subject. It was something that infuriated me when I was a student and still does now. | ||
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Otolia
France5805 Posts
On May 03 2012 21:41 Incognoto wrote: The problem with Hollande, as I've said before, is that he spent as much time attacking Sarkozy as he did bringing something new to the table. Obviously, you're supposed to do that in a debate, but he seems to be playing on "Sarkozy you fucked up, gtfo" rather than "here are the solutions I'm proposing to these problems". Hollande was very aggressive. Too aggressive imo. Sarkozy's reign wasn't great but you have to admit he didn't fuck things up as badly as Hollande seems to be saying. France didn't get dragged down when the recession hit. Sarkozy handled Afghanistan pretty well. Sarkozy has had good relations with Merkel and Obama. The one thing about the debate is that I feel Sarkozy's ideas make more sense. Even if Sarko didn't destroy Hollande, he defended his ideas well. Sarkozy is right about the idea of reducing immigration, to better accommodate them. Too many people come to France without adding anything to our society. If immigrants are just left alone without any support it's not good for them and it's not good for us. I agree about continuing to use nuclear energy. Our reactors have never had a problem and we're damn good at using them. ;/ I agree about education. We don't need more teachers for 5 year olds. "Teaching" to 5 year olds is easy as shit. Maybe it's because I just get along with kids who are half my age really well and others don't, but there's nothing hard at all about classes up until the collège (and even then). The material you're teaching is crap easy. It's retarded to want to add more teachers there. When I came from the USA to France, I got 17,5/20 on my first math test without studying. And I'm not even smart. Where French education really needs a revamp is in lycées. They work 18 hours a week. Teachers, (with a few exceptions obviously, I've had good teachers), are mostly incompetent as well. They don't work a lot and they do their work poorly. I didn't have an English teacher for half a year in Terminale. Our philosophy teacher in Terminale was absent quite, quite often. One time she came to class and said that she was tired. We all obviously told her that we just shouldn't do class. She agreed and just left. As a student I was quite happy with these arrangements, but unfortunately that kind of bullshit is common in lycées, I've talked to other people from other lycées who said they had similar stories. Those lazy fucks work 18 hours a week, 8 months a year and they're still payed more than the minimum wage. Well something is wrong there.* Sarkozy probably lost every single vote from teachers when he said he was going to make them work more, but he's right lol. Yet Hollande wants to add 60k more lazy fucks? PUH-LEASE. I already stated what I thought about Afghanistan. There are obviously other issues I haven't mentioned here, Sarkozy is still a clown to me, but I just disagree with everything Hollande says. Maybe someone who is going to vote Hollande can tell me why they're doing so, for another reason other than "i don't like sarko". I need a good reason not to move to Germany if Hollande gets elected. q_q *NB: Students work 35 hours a week not counting the homework they're supposed to do for every subject. I really fail to see how teachers need more than a handful of hours per week to prepare their lessons and grade papers, especially since they have one subject. It was something that infuriated me when I was a student and still does now. You have some serious issues. Just because you regret what happen in your youth doesn't give you the right or the legitimacy to make wild assumption on the work required for teachers. Finland has one of the most praised school system in the world because of its raw results and how it treats children (compare to the stalags in Japan and Korea). There teachers are paid more than the average OCDE teacher. You want good results ? Start paying people more. What Sarkosy could have done is starting a ambitious rejuvenation of our secondary education system, instead he choose to do half-assed reform of the tertiary system. It's saddening. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On May 03 2012 21:50 Otolia wrote: You have some serious issues. Just because you regret what happen in your youth doesn't give you the right or the legitimacy to make wild assumption on the work required for teachers. Finland has one of the most praised school system in the world because of its raw results and how it treats children (compare to the stalags in Japan and Korea). There teachers are paid more than the average OCDE teacher. You want good results ? Start paying people more. What Sarkosy could have done is starting a ambitious rejuvenation of our secondary education system, instead he choose to do half-assed reform of the tertiary system. It's saddening. What do you mean I can't make assumptions about the quantity of work a teacher does? I have every right, I have 2 aunts and an uncle who work as teachers (one of them at prépa level), I'm in prépa as well and I interact with my teachers on a closer basis than most students outside prépas do. Not to mention I've been on the receiving end of what they're teaching and it's retardedly no complicated at all (lycée level). We've had actual discussions with teachers on education by the way (the scientific program in lycées is going to hell btw, people are going to get their BAC with knowing how to derive if things continue the way they are). Isn't that what Sarkozy proposed anyway? Have teachers work more and get paid more? Pretty sure that's better than getting 60k more unneeded teachers. Education is expensive enough as it is and when you have teachers who work 18h a week for more than the SMIC, there's a problem somewhere. I definitely think it's better to have less teachers who work more and are paid more. I never said teaching is easy but at the moment both the quality of our education and its cost is pretty bad. I much prefer Sarkozy's reform to Hollande's. | ||
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Nouar
France3270 Posts
On May 03 2012 21:41 Incognoto wrote: The problem with Hollande, as I've said before, is that he spent as much time attacking Sarkozy as he did bringing something new to the table. Obviously, you're supposed to do that in a debate, but he seems to be playing on "Sarkozy you fucked up, gtfo" rather than "here are the solutions I'm proposing to these problems". I don't agree to that. A campaign isn't about making a proposal a day, his program has been known for months, why do you want him to bring NEW things ? Nearly the whole 3hours were spent talking about his program... What do you want more ? Yeah he did attack Sarkozy, and he was probably not expecting it, it was well done. Perhaps a bit harsh, but that was to prove wrong people saying he's too soft I believe. These things and strategies are planned to have the desired effect. Sarkozy was the one who didn't propose anything. They barely spoke about what he was gonna do, and in that way, he was behind in the debate since he couldn't bring forth his ideas. Sarkozy is right about the idea of reducing immigration, to better accommodate them. Too many people come to France without adding anything to our society. If immigrants are just left alone without any support it's not good for them and it's not good for us. 60k students adding something to our country since they will work afterwards (if Gueant doesn't boot them all beforehand), 60k family, 30k economic immigration, and a few others (regularisations/asilum) up to 200k. How do you reduce it to 100k without damage ? Illegal immigration, on the other hand...... there's nothing hard at all about classes up until the collège (and even then). The material you're teaching is crap easy. It's retarded to want to add more teachers there. When I came from the USA to France, I got 17,5/20 on my first math test without studying. And I'm not even smart. Yup, but in 6e, many don't read or write correctly. There is a problem somewhere. Be it about classes, the method, the numbers, I don't know, but in french college (11-15yo), they write and read like shit when they enter it. I agree about continuing to use nuclear energy. Our reactors have never had a problem and we're damn good at using them. ;/ I agree, too, we should continue using and developing that technology. But old nuclear plants should be closed, instead of extending their lifespan by 10 years every 10 years. Dismantling a plant costs money. But keeping them alive for faaaar longer than they were intended to, saves money short-term, but increases risks in the long run. And in 10 years.... We'll have to close a hell of a lot of plants, which will cost A FUCKTON of money. Those lazy fucks work 18 hours a week, 8 months a year and they're still payed more than the minimum wage. I guess you never had to teach anything in your life. Both my parents were teachers (right wing, mind you), and I can assure you that the time spent preparing lessons and correcting exams is harsh. I hardly ever saw them in the evenings since they were busy working, and there are no place at school where they can work correctly. (One teacher room usually with like 5 desks for 60 teachers) A teacher in college has around 8-12 different classes, on 3-4 different levels, have to prepare lessons for each level (since programs change every 2/3 years), and have tests and exams every 2/3weeks in each. That's an average of 120 (4 classes a week, 30students/class) tests to correct every week. Please stop telling us about lazy shits working 18hours a week. Of course, as in every job, some are lazy. I see it in university mostly. Add to that the difficult classes, and tension, and refusal of authority, on people who are not even TAUGHT how to give lessons and have no experience in front of a live class. Lol, hi stress, how are you ? | ||
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Kerm
France467 Posts
You have to add to that class preparation, exam/homework correction, etc. I mean listen to yourself : "Every teacher is a lazy fuck, but some are better than other. Actually the ones I know directly or that are in my family are hard working, pretty ok". Doesn't it sound familiar to you ? It should. Stop with caricatural generalization please. ps : Ho and yeah, teaching how to read to 30 (thirty !) 5-year old, is probably easy as hell. Please go do it, and link us a video, I need to laugh. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On May 03 2012 22:17 Nouar wrote: I don't agree to that. A campaign isn't about making a proposal a day, his program has been known for months, why do you want him to bring NEW things ? Nearly the whole 3hours were spent talking about his program... What do you want more ? Yeah he did attack Sarkozy, and he was probably not expecting it, it was well done. Perhaps a bit harsh, but that was to prove wrong people saying he's too soft I believe. These things and strategies are planned to have the desired effect. Sarkozy was the one who didn't propose anything. They barely spoke about what he was gonna do, and in that way, he was behind in the debate since he couldn't bring forth his ideas. The way it felt was that he was spending more time emphasizing that Sarkozy was a poor president rather than explaining why his ideas would be good. Sarkozy justified his ideas rather well and also justified the things he had done well. Then again I was playing LoL and listening to the debate at the same time, might have missed something. But even now I don't see the rationality, or the justification of why Hollande wants to do what he wants to do. Each time he explained something I felt the reasoning was really poor. Then again I was playing LoL, so maybe you could refresh my memory. I'm asking sincerely, I want to know why X reform would do Y good. | ||
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Nouar
France3270 Posts
 about the reasonings they gave, I'm too tired to do it, I was on duty all night and didn't sleep, I guess you can read minutes or something here : http://www.lemonde.fr/election-presidentielle-2012/article/2012/05/03/sarkozy-hollande-le-compte-rendu-integral-du-debat-theme-par-theme_1694802_1471069.html ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sASS9.jpg) Hehe. Sums it up pretty well. Caption says : "Do you really believe I did win ?" says the consumer/worker | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On May 03 2012 22:19 Kerm wrote: I don't know how your aunt and uncle were doing, but my sister and my father are/were working FAR MORE than 18 hours a week. It's 18 hours of presence in front of student. You have to add to that class preparation, exam/homework correction, etc. I mean listen to yourself : "Every teacher is a lazy fuck, but some are better than other. Actually the ones I know directly or that are in my family are hard working, pretty ok". Doesn't it sound familiar to you ? It should. Stop with caricatural generalization please. ps : Ho and yeah, teaching how to read to 30 (thirty !) 5-year old, is probably easy as hell. Please go do it, and link us a video, I need to laugh. I never said my aunt and uncle were hard working. They're competent at what they do and they work, but they aren't exactly living a hard life either. Yes, some teachers are obviously much better than their colleagues, thanks for bringing that up. My math and physics teacher in Terminale were excellent, they both got me good grades for the BAC. Those two teachers deserve to be paid more, because the quality of their work is astoundingly better than the average (ie what I've seen most teachers do). If those two teachers were in front of more than 1 class of Terminales and a handful of 2ndes, then overall the education would be less expensive and of better quality. Do you understand what I'm saying? Having more teachers who are as good as the average teachers will cost much more money and the quality won't be better. Keep the good teachers, get rid of the useless ones. I don't know your sister or father, but if they're competent then they should be in front of more students and get paid more for it. They deserve it. Do you understand what I'm saying? And I tend to agree that little children aren't always good at reading at a young age, I've noticed this as well. But I think that's more of the parent's fault than the teacher's. My mother taught me to read, not my teacher. If a kid can't read when they're 10-11 years old than I think that it's the parent's responsibility, not the teacher's. Don't tell me that some parents don't have time to teach children how to read, that's bullshit. Every child needs their parent's attention, if you don't have time to spend with your child you shouldn't have made one in the first place. Edit: Nouar thank you for the link. Edit 2: Oh snap you've responded to a lot of my post. I'll read everything, but I won't respond I need to study. Fuck me, I'd have loved to have a debate with you considering you don't seem like a crazy fucktard and we'd have had a nice discussion. | ||
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maliceee
United States634 Posts
On May 03 2012 21:37 Microchaton wrote: 53/47 seems pretty likely. Still hope Sarkozy will win but he needed to smash that debate to do so, and he made too many mistakes. If I may ask, what were his mistakes? He was overly harsh at some points, but since I am not as fluent in current French politics I'd like to know the lies he stated(at least according to some). | ||
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Kukaracha
France1954 Posts
On May 03 2012 21:26 chuky500 wrote: The debate was fun but it was more about the form than content. This video shows the point of view of Credit Agricole on Hollande's program. It's very instructive and hard to disagree with the analysis. You can read the report in English. Very cool video. I've always wondered myself if the UE really should stay, I guess I simply don't know the implications. On May 03 2012 21:41 Incognoto wrote: The problem with Hollande, as I've said before, is that he spent as much time attacking Sarkozy as he did bringing something new to the table. Obviously, you're supposed to do that in a debate, but he seems to be playing on "Sarkozy you fucked up, gtfo" rather than "here are the solutions I'm proposing to these problems". Hollande was very aggressive. Too aggressive imo. Sarkozy's reign wasn't great but you have to admit he didn't fuck things up as badly as Hollande seems to be saying. France didn't get dragged down when the recession hit. Sarkozy handled Afghanistan pretty well. Sarkozy has had good relations with Merkel and Obama. The one thing about the debate is that I feel Sarkozy's ideas make more sense. Even if Sarko didn't destroy Hollande, he defended his ideas well. Sarkozy is right about the idea of reducing immigration, to better accommodate them. Too many people come to France without adding anything to our society. If immigrants are just left alone without any support it's not good for them and it's not good for us. I agree about continuing to use nuclear energy. Our reactors have never had a problem and we're damn good at using them. ;/ I agree about education. We don't need more teachers for 5 year olds. "Teaching" to 5 year olds is easy as shit. Maybe it's because I just get along with kids who are half my age really well and others don't, but there's nothing hard at all about classes up until the collège (and even then). The material you're teaching is crap easy. It's retarded to want to add more teachers there. When I came from the USA to France, I got 17,5/20 on my first math test without studying. And I'm not even smart. Where French education really needs a revamp is in lycées. They work 18 hours a week. Teachers, (with a few exceptions obviously, I've had good teachers), are mostly incompetent as well. They don't work a lot and they do their work poorly. I didn't have an English teacher for half a year in Terminale. Our philosophy teacher in Terminale was absent quite, quite often. One time she came to class and said that she was tired. We all obviously told her that we just shouldn't do class. She agreed and just left. As a student I was quite happy with these arrangements, but unfortunately that kind of bullshit is common in lycées, I've talked to other people from other lycées who said they had similar stories. Those lazy fucks work 18 hours a week, 8 months a year and they're still payed more than the minimum wage. Well something is wrong there.* Sarkozy probably lost every single vote from teachers when he said he was going to make them work more, but he's right lol. Yet Hollande wants to add 60k more lazy fucks? PUH-LEASE. I already stated what I thought about Afghanistan. There are obviously other issues I haven't mentioned here, Sarkozy is still a clown to me, but I just disagree with everything Hollande says. Maybe someone who is going to vote Hollande can tell me why they're doing so, for another reason other than "i don't like sarko". I need a good reason not to move to Germany if Hollande gets elected. q_q *NB: Students work 35 hours a week not counting the homework they're supposed to do for every subject. I really fail to see how teachers need more than a handful of hours per week to prepare their lessons and grade papers, especially since they have one subject. It was something that infuriated me when I was a student and still does now. 1 ) If you were satisfied by their ideas, then I don't know what to say. A bunch of smoke and random numbers don't really count as "ideas" in my head but whatever. 2) In my experience, teachers were rarely absent. They worked 35 hours a week + a couple of hours correcting papers. I was pretty satisfied by most of them (my lycée was Lakanal if you want to know). 3) 5 years old do need more teachers, desperately. My little brother almost lost an eye because the class is overcrowded and the teacher can't be everywhere at once. What can happen when they all have scissors? Accidents, violence too. It may sound cute but they do suffer when a bully slaps them on the face all day because there's no adult to look. This has been a major topic of discontent at the local school, parents are very stressed and the kids are obviously unhappy. Now, I don't expect a kid in a prépa to know this kind of things, but it's not that hard to imagine. Kids are kids. All in all, your post is proof that this debate was empy and mostly relies what people personally experienced, more than any real knowledge they had on the matter. The danger is when people truly believe that their own experience can be extrapolated to 60 million people. | ||
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Nouar
France3270 Posts
End of the offtopic :p On May 03 2012 22:40 maliceee wrote: If I may ask, what were his mistakes? He was overly harsh at some points, but since I am not as fluent in current French politics I'd like to know the lies he stated(at least according to some). http://decodeurs.blog.lemonde.fr/2012/05/03/erreurs-contreverites-et-controverses-du-debat/ I don't have, again, time or will to translate, sorry ;/ | ||
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